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Bigger And Worse Than The Rest
July 16th 2000, 09:58 CEST by andy Thanks to the blitz mentality -- no matter how bad something is, if it happens often enough you eventually stop noticing -- patches and so-called "point releases" haven't been getting much coverage here lately. But the Daikatana v1.1 patch deserves a special mention... Not having played the game myself, I can only go on what other people have said. So if the general concensus from gamers and critics is correct, and ION Storm's flagship release is a clumsy, annoying mess of a game, then this patch at least keeps up with tradition. First, some stats to put things in perspective: The final Quake 2 point release, including the full Capture The Flag, is 13.2Mb. The latest Unreal Tournament patch, including the rewritten level editor, plus the "bonus pack" with eleven new levels, adds up to 19.9Mb. The latest Half-Life upgrade, including the full Team Fortress Classic, is 37.5Mb. So that's a rough guide for how much 'extra' stuff you should get for your download. The Daikatana patch weighs in at a staggering 44.3Mb. That's for bug fixes and virtually NO new content. ION Storm even warns that "it could take up to half an hour to apply the patch", and there is the now-expected advice that after installing, "your savegames will NOT work". There are over 30 bug fixes and "new features", and almost every one of them can safely be classed as another victory for sloppy quality control, ie: Sidekick spawning has been fixed, solving a problem that meant "you couldn't finish the game". Demo recording and playback now "works", which I assume means it didn't before. And it's not often that a patch needs to say: "All map bugs have been fixed." Other fixes include deathmatch crashes, a texture problem on Voodoo cards, and these two classics: "Fixed memory leaks", and "You cannot save on moving platforms anymore (which caused a bug)". Remember that Quake 2 had a problem with saving on moving platforms? That bug was fixed by... fixing it. The Daikatana solution is pathetic by comparison -- a lazy workaround, like those web sites that block Netscape because they only work in MSIE. (But hey, I've done that myself many years ago, so maybe I should get down off my high horse?) To be fair, there are several good things about the patch, the most obvious ones being that you can now save whenever you want (apart from on moving platforms, of course), and there's a new deathmatch mode called "Instagib". But when you look at the overall package, you're still downloading over 40Mb to fix problems that could and should have been addressed before the game was released. Daikatana doesn't exactly have the excuse of being rushed, does it? Finally, for anyone who thinks a 40Mb+ patch with a half-hour install time is pushing things a bit, the boys at ION Storm put forward this recommendation: "You can view the readme while the patch is installing." Either they missed the sarcastic smiley off the end of that, or they were being serious... |
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<QUOTE> Right on, and I expect Anachronox to be of the same high quality caliber as Deus Ex is. Just stay away from those Dallas offices and we'll be fine. </QUOTE> Ummm, Dethstryk, talk about irony. Anachronox _is_being_developed at the Dallas offices. Now, considering that fact, your statement is a bit of a contraction, hmmmm? |
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<QUOTE> Right on, and I expect Anachronox to be of the same high quality caliber as Deus Ex is. Just stay away from those Dallas offices and we'll be fine. </QUOTE> Ummm, Dethstryk, talk about irony. Anachronox _is_being_developed at the Dallas offices. Now, considering that fact, your statement is a bit of a contraction, hmmmm? |
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<b>rainman wrote in post #202:</b> <quote>Ummm, Dethstryk, talk about irony. Anachronox _is_being_developed at the Dallas offices. Now, considering that fact, your statement is a bit of a contraction, hmmmm? </quote> So it is. Just keep Romero's hands away from the development team and I'll be happy. I'm glad the ol' Romero didn't want to "help" out with Deus Ex after they were done with Daikatana. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<B>Baytor</B> - Nah, I don't really care for Lo Wang any more than I did for Duke. I just think that the weapons and level design in Shadow Warrior were more interesting. I barely played either game though, so I couldn't really say for sure. Personally, the only build engine game I can think of that I had more than just "apathy bordering on low level dislike" for is Blood. I read a lot of Stephen King though (my secret shame, sort of), and I watch a lot of horror movies, so I guess that's not surprising. <B>Valeyard</B> - We have the full version of Psycho Circus at GameSpy, and the key-sticking thing happens to me constantly, too. Overall, the game impresses me on some levels, and dissapoints on others. It's pretty much a middle-of-the-road FPS. Good for some fun, but not anything that's likely to gain the prestige of Half-Life. <B>Everyone Else</B> - My god, another D3D vs. OpenGL discussion? Let the weeping begin. -shaithis |
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Jason Hall: Thanks for the reply, I "get it". :) What I was actually referring to was supporting D3D <b>and</b> OpenGL...which would widen the user base and give people an option. If that's not feasible, that's fine. -Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Waiting for the predictable Andy "worrying" comment. Desiato |
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<b>#193</b> "ajb" wrote... <QUOTE>So Jason is coding now? Cool! :) Might wanna give credit to the code monkeys on that one. </QUOTE> I'd love to, but I don't know the names...they're not quite so public...that's why I said "and his team". -Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Jason Hall (#166): <i>LithTech does not support OpenGL on the PC. There is no need for it.</i> uh, well, i guess there goes the Linux and Mac ports. :) unless, of course, they take the time to write a whole new graphics renderer. then again, i gotta admit i don't know shit about lithtech, so have no idea how hard or easy this might be. <i>disclaimer: my opinion, not my employer's. Your Ad Here For Pennies A Month! Call Now!</i><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Crash read this line from jason's responce on that. <b>#191</b> "Jason Hall" wrote... <QUOTE>OpenGL is a wonderful standard giving you things like portability - but LithTech Inc. custom designs and programs a new renderer and sounds system (at minimum) for each platform it supports. </QUOTE> I'm taking that as meaning LithTech will be re writing the engine to use what ever API is the strongest on any given platform that is supported, in windows that happens to be D3D since nearly every graphics card out there has Microsoft certified D3D drivers (so they are going to work no matter what), on MAC and Linux that would be OpenGL (where the drivers have to be better then the windows version since it's the only thing around). I for one thing it's a great idea, play to the most stupported API on any given platform, and make it work great.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote> 1. I'm sure lots of people can figure out who you're talking about, which makes me think you don't really want to hide which company it is. </quote> Good for them. I'm sure if they did a bit more digging around they can find out the relevant staff which left and started up their own studio too. I'm not hiding it because I don't want them to find out, I'm hiding it to save my own ass. The moment I mention the name, the same moment the CEO starts an internal witch hunt and cuts off all internet and email access. <quote> 2. All the way through your post you refer to "we" and "our", but in the one paragraph I've quoted you refer to "they". I think that's a slip-up. (Where you say "their", that makes sense, but later on, "they" doesn't.) </quote> And? When I wrote the sentence, referring to us as "their" made sense. In fact, I wasn't even considering what would "strengthen the legibility of my story", since I didn't think I'd have to get down to the detail of picking the right sentence structure! I can easially give you proof - an email, for example. But after the whole 3DR thing, how do I know that you aren't just going to post it, thereby revealing the company as well as my identity? I know this seems like a lame cop-out, but after seeing what happened with the 3DR stuff, I simply can't trust Andy with personal information. <quote> So basically, whoever you are, I don't believe you work for this company. I think you're either someone who just wants to cause trouble, or more likely, you work for (or own?) a rival company and you're trying to plant some rumours. In fact, I've got a feeling that I know who you are, although I can't figure out your motive for posting this message. (But that's probably because I don't know which company you're talking about.) </quote> Hahahahah! I can't believe how you can try and dredge out a huge conspiracy out of the smallest of things! Are you seriously saying that because I chose one grammatical style over the other unconsciously that I am a competing company trying to badmouth this company? <quote> It's impossible for a company to lose 150% of its original staff. </quote> What I mean is we lost virtually our entire team, rehired, and then lost half of the rehired people. I guess I shouldn't have put original there. <quote> Or maybe Mr. Anonymous could grow a set of balls and identify himself. Just a thought... </quote> Okay, say hypothetically I identify myself. The moment I do that, I get sued by the CEO, I lose my job, and end up on the street because I can't pay my mortgage. Come September, I'll gladly de-identify myself and talk about it. I'll be working somewhere else, and the majority of staff here would have left, thereby meaning I can't get slapped with a lawsuit since there will be a lot of people who could have written the said article. To stop what I think is going to come from me saying this, I put in 110% of my time and effort into my job, simply because I love it. The fact that I (and many others here) are pissed off **doesn't** mean we sit around and grab money for no work. We work to the best of our abilities, even if we would do anything to get out of here. |
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I like what Jason had to say about the D3D vs OpenGL thing. What he said makes perfect sense to me. I'd rather have an engine that really, really shined on it's supported API than one that was just 'ok' on several all at once. If I understand, he's not saying there's anything at all wrong with OpenGL, but just happens to have made a business decision some time ago that seemed like the right thing to do then, and still today seems like a decent decision. If another platform would benifit from using another API, then they make the engine for that platform use it. How can that be so bad? I can hear people gassing up the flamethrower muttering 'choice Barn, it's all about choice', but hang on. If the game runs like a champ using D3D, why do I need a choice? The only valid argument would be that if all dev's. were to make the choice to support OpenGL, then we could slip a long hard one into 'the man' and make him squeal, but when it comes to gamming, that's not my focus. The only part that confused me is when he said supporting OpenGL would limit there options for platform support. That sounds contradictory as OpenGL is certainly supported on a hell of a lot more platforms than D3D is. But I guess in this world, where the platform that does support D3D is riding probably 95% marketshare in the target market, striving for crossplatform development is kind of a pointless waste of money. In the PC world, there is only one platform that matters. It might not be pretty, but I'm just calling it as I see it. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Valeyard wrote - "What I was actually referring to was supporting D3D and OpenGL...which would widen the user base and give people an option. If that's not feasible, that's fine." As far as I know every 3D card that the mass consumer market uses to play games on (PC running WINDOWS) has a Direct 3D driver. Supporting OpenGL with LithTech for PC (Windows)would not widen the user base,simply because it would be a redundant option. Jason Hall "King of the MONSTARS!!!" |
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None-1a (#210): <i>I'm taking that as meaning LithTech will be re writing the engine to use what ever API is the strongest on any given platform that is supported</i> yep, and i would expect no less. however, that's a generality, and i tend to look on generalities with suspicion. or, to put it another way: just because it's been "custom design[ed] and program[med]" doesn't mean it's going to be used. :) which, basically, would be the question, but then Jason probably isn't the person to ask. haven't heard anything about a mac or linux port in any case, and looking at the site shows a PC bent. can't really take 'em to task for it, though; we gotta remember this is Third Law's first effort. (not that i'm cuttin 'em any slack on the quality of the game, but i can understand why it wouldn't necessarily be ported, at least for a simultaneous release.) <i>#include disclaimer.h</i><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Come September, I'll gladly de-identify myself and talk about it. I'll be working somewhere else, and the majority of staff here would have left, thereby meaning I can't get slapped with a lawsuit since there will be a lot of people who could have written the said article. </quote> What does "de-identify" mean? |
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Just to add more, I read a book last year or so called 'Renegades of the Empire'. There are several references to monolith in there regarding development efforts with a pile of experimental Microsoft technologies. They were obviously working quite closly together at that point. Since then, I've always wondered what exactly the relationship Monolith and MS have? It would appear that monolith was an early supporter of Microsoft's attempts to rule the gamming world, involved since the beginning of DirectX, and WildTangent and all that stuff, so it's no suprise that monolith just might have the inside line when it comes to getting D3D to 'be all it can be'. I'm curious if you wouldn't mind Jason, do you guys still have the same relationship with MS now as it appears you had back then? Pretty decent read too if your looking for some dirt on where DirectX came from. I don't know if it's all true or not, but a decent read nonethless.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#215</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <QUOTE> What does "de-identify" mean? </QUOTE> Come on, he said it was non-US company. English probably isn't his first language. I'm sure you know what he meant.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Jace - I see the point. BarneyQue summed it up nicely...I don't need a choice if D3D runs great. From what I saw today, it does. Congratulate your team, it's the best D3D renderer I've seen. -Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#217</b> "Talion" wrote... <QUOTE> <B>#215</B> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <quote> What does "de-identify" mean? </quote> Come on, he said it was non-US company. English probably isn't his first language. I'm sure you know what he meant.</QUOTE> Easy now.. I get the feeling Warren's not into the whole anonymous company bashing thing. If you want to take a few swings at your employer, I can only assume he want's you to grow a set, and go right to it with your name on the top. Of course as Mr.Anon noted, doing so would most definatly, and rightly so, put your ass on the unemployment line.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#211</b>, Mr Anonymous: <QUOTE> I know this seems like a lame cop-out, but after seeing what happened with the 3DR stuff, I simply can't trust Andy with personal information. </QUOTE> And there's the confirmation. ;-) |
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<b>#205</b> "shaithis" wrote... <QUOTE> <B>Baytor</B> - Personally, the only build engine game I can think of that I had more than just "apathy bordering on low level dislike" for is Blood. I read a lot of Stephen King though (my secret shame, sort of), and I watch a lot of horror movies, so I guess that's not surprising. </quote> God, how I love'd that game. Irritates me to no end that I can't get the sound to work correctly on my new system (damn, non Sound Blaster sound card). I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#221</b> "Baytor" wrote... <QUOTE>God, how I love'd that game. Irritates me to no end that I can't get the sound to work correctly on my new system (damn, non Sound Blaster sound card). </QUOTE> Your not the only one irritated by that. I've got the exact same problem with every single build based game I've tried, this is despite the fact that my PCI Fortismo as ran every single older game I've thrown at it with perfect legicy support. I have manged strangly enough to get most build games to run with sound on other cards that wouldn't run even doom with sound support, all ISA based. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#216</b> "BarneyQue" wrote... <QUOTE>I'm curious if you wouldn't mind Jason, do you guys still have the same relationship with MS now as it appears you had back then? </QUOTE> Fool, how dare you reveal the evil conspiracy of M$ and Monolith? They have killed men for saying less than you have. Obviously, MS knew it was only a matter of time before the Justice Department came after them, and split Monolith off as their hapless lackies. Oh, no. Now, I've said too much. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#220</b> "Andy" wrote... <QUOTE>And there's the confirmation. ;-) </QUOTE> Come on, like anyone here would pretend to be a non-American game developer just to make you look bad. Oh, wait, maybe we would :) I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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BarneyQue : Yeah, that's exactly it. I find the anonymous employer bashing stuff to be such a bunch of shit. If you're unhappy with your employer, move on. We don't need to hear about it ... And I also have no respect for sites like Flamethrower or Fat Babies that seem to get their rocks off hurting people. All this stuff does is end up hurting people ... it never helps. |
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<b>#225</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <QUOTE> And I also have no respect for sites like Flamethrower or Fat Babies that seem to get their rocks off hurting people. </QUOTE> And I think it's funny that they think they can't be held accountable for libelous statements from anonymous sources... guess what kids? If you reprint a letter word-for-word from someone that contains libelous material, you became the publisher and you're responsible for the libel. (Magazines and newspapers can be held accountable for submitted letters.) Someone could intentionally submit the most libelous material to one of these sites and basically get them sued out of existence. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Monolith Rulez |
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And also, Lithtech Rulez. Now back to playing Shogo. |
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<b>#228</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> And also, Lithtech Rulez. Now back to playing Shogo. </QUOTE> No way, Doods, Blood 2 4ever man. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Blood 2 is cool also. Like I said, Lithtech rulez. That's why I'm getting the Kiss demo right now (damn 56k modem and Fileplanet). By the way, anyone on the Sanity beta test? The [AI] in my name is for Asylumn Inmates, the first ever Sanity clan. (Yeah we know the game hasn't been released yet.) |
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<b>#230</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> Blood 2 is cool also. Like I said, Lithtech rulez. That's why I'm getting the Kiss demo right now (damn 56k modem and Fileplanet). By the way, anyone on the Sanity beta test? The [AI] in my name is for Asylumn Inmates, the first ever Sanity clan. (Yeah we know the game hasn't been released yet.) </QUOTE> I could kick yer ass in sanity.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Then join our clan |
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Hmmm, how many Non-US companies employees have to worry about their CEO(s) reading The Crap? Andy, you should take that as a compliment...;) |
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Who agrees with me that Lithtech is the most colorful and rich looking D3D engine? I don't think it's even the Lithtech thing that has anything to do with it. Compare Shogo, Blood 2, Sanity, and KPC to Quake and UT, and the latter two just look plain old grey, almost as bad as this page :) I don't know why I'm asking, I just wanted to know what others thought about this, as I haven't heard it addressed anywhere else. |
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Warmonger, I've never played a Lithtech game<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#234</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> Who agrees with me that Lithtech is the most colorful and rich looking D3D engine? I don't think it's even the Lithtech thing that has anything to do with it. Compare Shogo, Blood 2, Sanity, and KPC to Quake and UT, and the latter two just look plain old grey, almost as bad as this page :) I don't know why I'm asking, I just wanted to know what others thought about this, as I haven't heard it addressed anywhere else. </QUOTE> I'm frightened. Somebody please tell me he's kidding. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Um... I don't think that applies to websites, Steve. Only to printed material that has been edited and proofed. How can anyone be held responsible for what I just typed on their site 5 min ago? "Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is. Assimilated, you will be." |
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What? I'm serious. Maybe it's just me, and Quake 3 wasn't nearly as bad as others, but other games for some reason don't seem to look as eye-catching to me. Sgt. Hulka-- You're missing out big time! |
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#237- There are some conditions under which a forum owner/operator could be liable for libel for message board or forum posts. However, in most cases that isn't a worry. What Mr. Bauman was referring to was taking an anonymous email that was full of bad stuff, then reprinting it on their site. Which they do frequently. And he's absolutely correct - they are just as open to liability as if they presented the anonymous third-party "rumors" as their own news. Defamation law isn't limited to printed material that has been edited and proofread. |
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<b>#238</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE>Sgt. Hulka-- You're missing out big time! </QUOTE> I'm still downloading the KISS Demo. I'm going to try and check it out tonight.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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You know what I just realized?? I compared a strictly D3D engine to 2 engines based around OpenGl. Oops. My bad. |
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<b>#238</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> What? I'm serious. Maybe it's just me, and Quake 3 wasn't nearly as bad as others, but other games for some reason don't seem to look as eye-catching to me. </QUOTE> Dude, I really thought you were just messing around with your Monolith Rulez--this is PlanetCrap. Based on Shogo and Blood 2 I don't think the engine is a bad one, but I never thought it was in the same leagues as the original Unreal engine--it had its moments against the Q2 engine though. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#237</b> "Geist" wrote... <QUOTE> Um... I don't think that applies to websites, Steve. Only to printed material that has been edited and proofed. How can anyone be held responsible for what I just typed on their site 5 min ago? </QUOTE> What Twitch said. All libel laws apply to websites; whether it's edited or proofed is irrelevant. If you could merely quote something and freely libel people, ALL stories would merely be one long quote. As for message board contents, that's an issue that will likely be settled by some court cases. I'd assume that libelous general posts would have to be settled by individuals, since both have equal access to the message board to refute any and all claims. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Is sarcasm a standard here or something? |
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Twitch and Steve: Ok, I'll admit that just got done playing the KISS demo (great fun) and all those "headless" got me confused. I thought you were originally referring to forum posts, Steve. My bad :) I was solely referring to sites being held responsible for free-access forum posts. While the poster can be held responsible, it would be very difficult to hold the website responsible (unless, of course, the webadmins post libel on their own forums, while representing their company). Now I'll step aside and let the posting rage on. Back to playing KISS! |
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I don't think that the engine, LT1, stacks up that well against Unreal, but what I like about the game is basically the textures. For some reason, games that use Lithtech also have great artists. If you consider that LT is 16 bit, the games look amazing. |
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<b>#244</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> Is sarcasm a standard here or something? </QUOTE> Sometimes, but Lith bashing occurs frequently. <b>#246</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> I don't think that the engine, LT1, stacks up that well against Unreal, but what I like about the game is basically the textures. For some reason, games that use Lithtech also have great artists. If you consider that LT is 16 bit, the games look amazing. </QUOTE> I always thought textures were its biggest problem. Could never put my finger on it. I've always felt that Quake engines looked the most solid (almost like it was constructed, rather than just a bunch of textures); Unreal's not too shaby in this department, but it always has that video gamey look, whatever I mean by that. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I suppose you can call me the "official" Monolith defender. I'll have to talk to Jace about that, but soon enough, I'm sure that it'll work. If you saw the NOLF screenshot comments on Evil Avatar, I'm the one with ip 208.*.*.* that's defending Lith. Jace says Sanity and NOLF will speak for themselves, but in the meantime, I'll have to do the speaking for Monolith on forums, etc. |
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<b>#248</b> "Warmonger [AI]" wrote... <QUOTE> I suppose you can call me the "official" Monolith defender. I'll have to talk to Jace about that, but soon enough, I'm sure that it'll work. If you saw the NOLF screenshot comments on Evil Avatar, I'm the one with ip 208.*.*.* that's defending Lith. Jace says Sanity and NOLF will speak for themselves, but in the meantime, I'll have to do the speaking for Monolith on forums, etc. </QUOTE> I was bitching at him back in my PlanetBlood days. I'm not going to blindly bash them, but they've still got some proving to do to convince me that they're a quality company. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#245</b> "Geist" wrote... <QUOTE> I was solely referring to sites being held responsible for free-access forum posts. While the poster can be held responsible, it would be very difficult to hold the website responsible (unless, of course, the webadmins post libel on their own forums, while representing their company). </QUOTE> Yeah, I'd think that too, but the courts may eventually decide otherwise. Who knows? --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Well, as long as you can give NOLF and Sanity an open mind to try out, that's just fine with me. Unlike Evil Avatar, who will hate Monolith until the day he dies. |
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