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Bigger And Worse Than The Rest
July 16th 2000, 09:58 CEST by andy

Thanks to the blitz mentality -- no matter how bad something is, if it happens often enough you eventually stop noticing -- patches and so-called "point releases" haven't been getting much coverage here lately. But the Daikatana v1.1 patch deserves a special mention...



Not having played the game myself, I can only go on what other people have said. So if the general concensus from gamers and critics is correct, and ION Storm's flagship release is a clumsy, annoying mess of a game, then this patch at least keeps up with tradition.

First, some stats to put things in perspective: The final Quake 2 point release, including the full Capture The Flag, is 13.2Mb. The latest Unreal Tournament patch, including the rewritten level editor, plus the "bonus pack" with eleven new levels, adds up to 19.9Mb. The latest Half-Life upgrade, including the full Team Fortress Classic, is 37.5Mb. So that's a rough guide for how much 'extra' stuff you should get for your download.

The Daikatana patch weighs in at a staggering 44.3Mb. That's for bug fixes and virtually NO new content. ION Storm even warns that "it could take up to half an hour to apply the patch", and there is the now-expected advice that after installing, "your savegames will NOT work".

There are over 30 bug fixes and "new features", and almost every one of them can safely be classed as another victory for sloppy quality control, ie: Sidekick spawning has been fixed, solving a problem that meant "you couldn't finish the game". Demo recording and playback now "works", which I assume means it didn't before. And it's not often that a patch needs to say: "All map bugs have been fixed."

Other fixes include deathmatch crashes, a texture problem on Voodoo cards, and these two classics: "Fixed memory leaks", and "You cannot save on moving platforms anymore (which caused a bug)". Remember that Quake 2 had a problem with saving on moving platforms? That bug was fixed by... fixing it. The Daikatana solution is pathetic by comparison -- a lazy workaround, like those web sites that block Netscape because they only work in MSIE. (But hey, I've done that myself many years ago, so maybe I should get down off my high horse?)

To be fair, there are several good things about the patch, the most obvious ones being that you can now save whenever you want (apart from on moving platforms, of course), and there's a new deathmatch mode called "Instagib". But when you look at the overall package, you're still downloading over 40Mb to fix problems that could and should have been addressed before the game was released. Daikatana doesn't exactly have the excuse of being rushed, does it?

Finally, for anyone who thinks a 40Mb+ patch with a half-hour install time is pushing things a bit, the boys at ION Storm put forward this recommendation: "You can view the readme while the patch is installing." Either they missed the sarcastic smiley off the end of that, or they were being serious...

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Home » Topic: Bigger And Worse Than The Rest

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#105 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 09:19:21
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#100</b>, Jason Hall:
<QUOTE>
kiss demo is up!

http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?file=47099&download=1

I'm downloading it now. I'm anxious to see it!
</QUOTE>
It's a game based on your own engine, and you haven't seen it yet?
#106 by "Geoffrois"
2000-07-17 09:41:36
To all of you downloading the Kiss demo, start the game with the "StarBearer" if you don't want a frustrating experience.
#107 by "Paul"
2000-07-17 09:41:40
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
cool.. i'm grabbing the kiss demo now..

By the way, Romero should stop all support of Daikatana and move on. Daikatana is dead in the water. Get the basic fix out, and get a team of experienced individuals to finish the next game. I think Romero has a lot of good ideas, but Daikatana ended up being like a mod to Quake2 who charges $40 to play..

Anyone know if Romero still gets payment for Quake, and Doom merchandise?

- Paul
#108 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 09:42:32
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#12</b> "Milky" wrote...
<QUOTE>


I didn't even notice the damned thing come out. Internet game of Doom2
anyone? </QUOTE>

Damn, YES! (if we have the same version, I play with doomGL 1.0 with MD2)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#109 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 09:45:31
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#19</b> "Flamethrower" wrote...
<QUOTE>Some kind of skill/proficiency system could have worked well in Hexen II</QUOTE>

Hexen II actually had a skill system... :-)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#110 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 09:56:14
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#53</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>(But if we throw Shadow Warrior into the mix...)

</QUOTE>

IMHO, Shadow warrior was much more fun than DN (I suppose I'm alone with my opinion, though?)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#111 by "Twitch"
2000-07-17 10:00:03
twitch@gamepig.com http://www.gamepig.com
Drifting off-topic here, but I've been playing around with this Kiss demo, and it's not bad. The game's physics felt solid, and the  engine seemed able to handle a large number of enemies in an outdoor area without choking.....pleasantly surprised so far, (although the narrator is irritating)
#112 by "shaithis"
2000-07-17 10:01:14
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
<B>#110</B>, godZero -

No, I also thought Shadow Warrior was more fun than Duke3D. Then again, I felt that Blood was better than either of them.

I never cared for the Duke character, though. He made it impossible for me to enjoy the game. But I acknowledge and accept that I'm an extremely rare case. :)

-shai
#113 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 10:05:57
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#112</b> "shaithis" wrote...
<QUOTE>Then again, I felt that Blood was better than either of them.
</QUOTE>

Never played it :-(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#114 by "Paul"
2000-07-17 10:07:27
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Godzero:
I never purchased SW, but I played it on a friends computer quite a few times.

SW was a better game IMO, but I was hooked on Duke, and there wasn't anything outstanding in SW compared to Duke.

If I would have played SW before Duke, I don't know if I would have ever converted from SW to Duke though.

- Paul
#115 by "Paul"
2000-07-17 10:10:30
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Shaithis Said:

"I never cared for the Duke character, though. He made it impossible for me to enjoy the game. But I acknowledge and accept that I'm an extremely rare case. :) "

I never liked the Duke Character either.. I just enjoyed the flow of the game. Plus, ever since those Aliens Kidnapped me when I was a child, I always felt I needed to get payback;-)

- Paul
#116 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 10:12:33
godzero@gmx.de
I'll download this Kiss demo today, because I'm sure it _can't_ suck. I'll probably buy the game even if it should have 20,000 bugs. The monsters and the story are just so cool.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#117 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 10:13:21
andy@planetcrap.com
I bet if you did a survey of people who liked Duke the game, more than half of them would say they didn't like Duke the character.
#118 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 10:18:21
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#114</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>and there wasn't anything outstanding in SW compared to Duke.
</QUOTE>

For me, it was level design. The monsters were also cooler.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#119 by "Paul"
2000-07-17 10:19:13
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Godzero:
20,000 bugs, still 1/3 less than the amount microsoft claims are in windows 2000;-)

- Paul
#120 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 10:19:21
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#114</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>and there wasn't anything outstanding in SW compared to Duke.
</QUOTE>

For me, it was level design. The monsters were also cooler.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#121 by "Paul"
2000-07-17 10:23:49
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Godzero:
Level design was indeed better, but I think it was a natural progression because the designers had more experience with the engine, plus I know the engine had a few more pluses(rooms on top of rooms, I believe). You could do that trick with Duke3d too, but you had to make sure the sectors couldn't see each other.

Andy:
I think so too. I'm not impressed with a roided up character. I can't think of one game outside the original Dune and the Command and Conquer Series where the main character meant much to me at all. I'm one of those people who don't read much into the story line, I just run around and figure it out w/o many hints.

- Paul
#122 by "Jason Hall"
2000-07-17 10:29:24
Hall@lith.com http://www.lith.com
Andy -

I only saw it once (just part of one level or two), a LONG time ago.

I've been playing the demo, and I am having a great time with it.

Jace
#123 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 10:31:09
godzero@gmx.de
Paul:
Microsoft themselves claimed that? Whoaahh, fuckin' great! I'll stick to 98 first ed. for gaming (and Linux for UT).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#124 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-17 10:47:27
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<quote>Microsoft themselves claimed that? Whoaahh, fuckin' great! I'll stick to 98 first ed. for gaming (and Linux for UT). </quote>

Bugs in an operating system!  Who would have thunk it!  :)

I'm running Windows 2000 and if there are 60,000+ bugs in this thing, they're doing a good job of hiding (meaning they must be pretty minor or rare).  :)
#125 by "Flamethrower"
2000-07-17 10:49:58
blah http://blah
So what are you saying, Hall, that you as a game developers <i>could learn a few pointers about professionalisim from a start-up crew?</i>

KISS, is it finished? Let's assume yes. It it reasonably bug-free? Let's assume yes. Will it be supported? Let's assume yes.

Let's assume, therefore, that Third Law are <b>not</b> cunts.
#126 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 10:52:13
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#124</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>


<quote>Microsoft themselves claimed that? Whoaahh, fuckin' great! I'll stick to 98 first ed. for gaming (and Linux for UT). </quote>

Bugs in an operating system! Who would have thunk it! :)

I'm running Windows 2000 and if there are 60,000+ bugs in this thing, they're doing a good job of hiding (meaning they must be pretty minor or rare). :)


</QUOTE>

I would love to comment this, but you'll claim I'd be throwing flames. So I won't. You can guess, though...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#127 by "Jason Hall"
2000-07-17 11:07:04
Hall@lith.com http://www.lith.com
Oh HI EVIL AVATAR, oopss I mean FLAMETHROWER..ooppss I mean... Aren't you guys the same person just using different accounts? Someone told me that... hmmm

Oh nevermind. My official response to your statement is:
"You go boy!"

Jason Hall
"King of the MONSTRARS"
#128 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 11:13:24
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#127</b>, Jason Hall:
<QUOTE>
Oh HI EVIL AVATAR, oopss I mean FLAMETHROWER..ooppss I mean... Aren't you guys the same person just using different accounts? Someone told me that... hmmm
</QUOTE>
That's a ridiculous allegation!

;-)
#129 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 11:23:35
andy@planetcrap.com
Oops, that last post will have given the wrong impression.

I don't think Flamethrower is Evil Avatar (or vice versa). For a start, Flamethrower's posts here are from a UK dial-up.

But I do think Evil Avatar sometimes gets information from people by using a flamey@evilavatar.com (or similar) address.
#130 by "Paul"
2000-07-17 11:23:42
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
GodZero:

It took a little bit of searching, but this is what I was referring to about Windows 2000:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2436920,00.html?chkpt=zdnntop

It was a big story a while ago, and for some reason it stuck in the back of my mind.

The internal memo claims that, but it seems their public front is a little less harsh. With so much going on in the operating system, 60k bugs probably isn't a huge deal. Besides a few problems with Win98, I usually don't crash. A bit more stable than Win95.

- Paul
#131 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-07-17 11:46:25
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
Post <b>#123</b> by godZero:
<QUOTE><i>
Microsoft themselves claimed that? Whoaahh, fuckin' great! I'll stick to 98 first ed. for gaming (and Linux for UT).</i></QUOTE>

60k bugs is not really that much, for an OS. Anyone knows statistics from linux bugtraq (if there is one)? I doubt it'd be much less. I know Solaris has around the same amount of listed bugs at the moment (well, not exactly 60, but same order of magnitude).

And at least they know they have bugs :) It would be much more suprising if their bugtraq would be clean, which basically would mean they have it in readonly mode :) All programs have bugs, that's a fact. If it's 60k minor bugs (they could be extremely minor, occuring under hardware setup X with the command sequence Y if it happens on Friday 13th, 2001) it's ok with me. I think all of these bugs are low priority leftovers from their bugfixing process, which means you'll probably never notice them unless you know how to reproduce the bug.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#132 by "Apache"
2000-07-17 11:52:19
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
If anyone is curious how KISS looks, <A HREF="http://www.voodooextreme.com/comments.taf?postID=2190">here are a few new screen shots</a>.
#133 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 11:59:48
godzero@gmx.de
That's not why I don't want to use w2k. It's all that network stuff in there, 25 net services running in the background, indexing which should make me think my system runs faster than it actually does, that netmeeting/chat/games stuff, that mysterious (LOL) "system volume information" folder, the folders CSC, Debug and Registration inside winnt folder, which are there just for monitoring and such. While it's a good thing for server apps, I hate being forced to give up 700+ MB of my HD space for such shit I don't need at home. I'll continue using 98.

Bugs are normal, yes. Linux probably has more, but it's still in developement. Win2K is a commercial OS. That's the difference :-)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#134 by "Flamethrower"
2000-07-17 12:11:32
blah http://blah
Yeah, I mean the fact I'm in Scotland and EA is in the USA... :0    My personal email account even has ".co.uk" in it, I've put my whiney Brit accent 'on the record', I know lots about UK politics & news but not so much about US, the Union Jack has appeared in my logo, I write about what the UK versions of magazines have in them (like using stunning topless model Jo Guest to advertise BC3K) but, no, I really am Evil Avatar. And Andrew. Shit, for a while I was probably Gestalt too.

Of course, this was to throw y'all off the track, for <b>I AM PAUL STEED</b>.

For the record, never, at any time, have I had an "@evilavatar.com" mail account. Maybe Andy is thinking of my flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com, which I use when I can't get to flamey@alreadythere.freeserve.co.uk
#135 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 12:19:34
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#134</b> "Flamethrower" wrote...
<QUOTE>(like using stunning topless model Jo Guest to advertise BC3K)</QUOTE>

Jo Guest is DAMN HOT *EG*<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#136 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 12:35:00
godzero@gmx.de
Like ($)($)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#137 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-17 13:11:29
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.pcinformer.co.uk
60k bugs

fallacy.

mis spellings of 'microsoft', features left out, features pulled because of inconsistency with the os, dropped language packs ....

those are counted as 'bugs' by some people to give that figure.



been running 2k since Sept last year (betas and rcs), been great, no real issues except on my work pc which decided to ignore the keyboard and mouse one day :)


oh and Warren, dont forget the NanoKeys ;)

DS
#138 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 13:18:25
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#137</b>, Darkseid-[D!]:
<QUOTE>
60k bugs

fallacy.

mis spellings of 'microsoft', features left out, features pulled because of inconsistency with the os, dropped language packs ....

those are counted as 'bugs' by some people to give that figure.
</QUOTE>
So instead of saying bugs, let's say "things".

If a "thing" is a feature being left out, a feature being pulled because of an inconsistency or a language pack being dropped, then 63,000 "things" still sounds pretty bad to me!

Misspellings aren't major, I'll grant you, but your other examples actually sound quite serious.
#139 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 13:22:51
godzero@gmx.de
I'm sure they discovered a lot of new "features" they never thought of having there <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#140 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 13:28:04
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#137</b>, Darkseid-[D!]:
<QUOTE>
those are counted as 'bugs' by some people to give that figure.
</QUOTE>
BTW, the 63,000 bugs (or rather, "63,000 potential known defects") phrase came from Marc Lucovsky, one of the Windows project leads. So it's not a case of "some people" coming up with the figure.

(This is according to the <a href="http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2436920,00.html?chkpt=zdnntop">ZDNet story</a>.)
#141 by "Flamethrower"
2000-07-17 14:29:45
blah http://blah
I'd rather have 60,000 bugs that never affect my processing than 1 show-stopper.
#142 by "DevPac2"
2000-07-17 15:26:42
devpac2@hotmail.com
<Quote>Linux probably has more, but it's still in developement</Quote>

Does that mean that i've just paid for an OS in beta ? (i bought SuSE 6.4 from PC World) And Redhat are offering support for an OS with known bugs ? This is the sort of stunt i'd expect from the 'Evil Empire'. Scandalous :)

In all seriousness i personally can't see a time when 'Linux' (and i don't mean just the kernel) will stop being in development. Its a totally different mindset to the MS release strategy. People will carry on adding new and useful features to it and providing the users with the code that implements these features. Thats one of the main reasons i keep persevering with Linux.

Dev
#143 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-07-17 16:00:53
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
In all seriousness i personally can't see a time when "windows" (and i don't mean just whatever it has for the kernel) will stop being in development. Its a totally different mindset to linux release strategy. Microsoft will carry on adding new and usefull features to it and providing users with information about these features through MSDN library. That's one of the main reasons... no, wait, it isn't :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#144 by "godZero"
2000-07-17 16:07:24
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#142</b> "DevPac2" wrote...
<QUOTE>In all seriousness i personally can't see a time when 'Linux' (and i don't mean
just the kernel) will stop being in development</QUOTE>

That's not the problem. The biggest problem is that there is no standard. Every Linux distribution is different. Different kernel, different libraries, different structure, whatever. Until this isn't solved and they decide using the same code base, it won't make that "big" step forward :-(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#145 by "Speed"
2000-07-17 16:23:42
speed@pandora.be http://fragland.net
Jason : I've seen previewcopy and graphically it wasn't so good. Q2 mixed with Thief. Not my kinda thing (or the final game should be ALOT better)

Speed
Fragland.net
#146 by "Valeyard"
2000-07-17 16:50:30
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
<b>#141</b> "Flamethrower" wrote...
<QUOTE>I'd rather have 60,000 bugs that never affect my processing than 1 show-stopper. </QUOTE>

It's a first!  I'm completely in agreement with Flamey. :)

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#147 by "RandoM"
2000-07-17 16:52:43
random1@speakeasy.org
that 63,000 bugs figure is an estimate.  Given a certain number of lines of code, you can estimate how many bugs there are.  All he is really saying is that the codebase is freaking gigantic.

I read a bunch of books about this crap when I was forced into a QA/Testing role ( temporarily, thank $god ).  You can even do weird shit like 'seeding' bugs, then testing the code, then comparing the percentage of seeded bugs found to unseeded bugs found to determine how many bugs are remaining.

x-men movie was cool, but left me feeling curiously empty.  I didn't really bond with any of the characters.  Maybe it was because I thought Xavier and Toad were the best developed, while the rest felt like cardboard cut-outs.
#148 by "Desiato"
2000-07-17 16:59:31
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
As I recall, one reason for the "bugs" was that simple things like misspelled dialog box titles and captions counted as a "bug".

Either its PR flack or reality, but I don't really care too much about a misspelled error dialog...I just care *why* its happening.

Desiato
#149 by "Andy"
2000-07-17 17:13:29
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#147</b>, RandoM:
<QUOTE>
that 63,000 bugs figure is an estimate. Given a certain number of lines of code, you can estimate how many bugs there are. All he is really saying is that the codebase is freaking gigantic.
</QUOTE>
No. Quote from the ZDNet article:
<quote>
According to the Microsoft memo, the Windows 2000 source-code base contains:

* More than 21,000 "postponed" bugs, an indeterminate number of which Microsoft is characterizing as "real problems." Others are requests for new functionality, and others reflect "plain confusion as to how something is supposed to work."

* More than 27,000 "BugBug" comments. These are usually notes to developers to make something work better or more efficiently. According to Microsoft, they tend to represent "unfinished work" or "long-forgotten problems."

* Overall, there are more than 65,000 "potential issues" that could emerge as problems, as discovered by Microsoft's Prefix tool. Microsoft is estimating that 28,000 of these are likely to be "real" problems.
</quote>
(Note: People aren't wrong with the 63,000 figure, even though it says 65,000 in that quote.)
#150 by "JSHAW"
2000-07-17 17:41:21
JSHAW@carolina.rr.com
I admit this freely, without guilt or remorse:
I purchased Daikatana, and I upgraded it to ver 1.1 patch this past Saturday night.

YES, it took a long time for the patch to do it's magic, and install. I had a love for the game way back in the day when it was the 1st MPlayer demo, and had high hopes for the full version. I also downloaded the 2nd demo this year, and played it extensively prior to the full version release. Luckily by the fate of the gods, I did not suffer ANY of the bugs that others suffered (voodoo cards and show-stopping WIN2k bugs) due to my having a TNT2 ultra and WIN98 running.

While most would agree that Daikatana was a huge letdown, for the most part it is still a decent game, when compared to some other games.

Daikatana is one of those things in life that you either "LOVE it or HATE it", unless you are sitting on the fence and merely, "like it".

From the infamous "bitch ad" to it's over-hyping by many involved in it, the entire gaming community has learned alot due to this game. Most of those lessons revolve around what NOT to do to gain bad press and contempt from the people you are trying to get to buy your game.

Live and Learn...
#151 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-07-17 17:45:13
stupadasso@hotmail.com http://www.whitehouse.com
<b>#129</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>I don't think Flamethrower is Evil Avatar (or vice versa). For a start,
Flamethrower's posts here are from a UK dial-up. </QUOTE>

Just to clear the record:
Andy is NOT Flamey
Flamey is NOT EA
EA is a Donkey Dong

Now the world may rest, and Jason Hall is cool!  Any guy who can laugh at himself deserves my respect.

"" Jason Hall - "King of the MONSTRARS" ""
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#152 by "Mankovic"
2000-07-17 18:06:32
mankovic@bellsouth.net http://
I won't even bother asking how we wound up on the issue of 63000 bugs in Win2K, did someone pull an apple out of the orange basket?

It's prolly Romero' fault anyway..:/
#153 by "JeffD"
2000-07-17 19:18:58
jefdaley@microsoft.com
<b>#75</b> "Morgan" wrote...
<QUOTE>I assumed this was due to the patch installer <I>modifying</I> files rather than
just overwriting them.
</QUOTE>

Patches never modify bins, they just replace them outright.

When you patch Win2K, you don't modify ntoskrnl.exe, you get an entirely new one.  

Re: 63000 bugs in Win2K:

I can't exactly describe how the bug tracking process works, but what I can say is that this figure is *highly* misleading.  

=JD<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#154 by "Diseased"
2000-07-17 19:20:31
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com
Yeah I thought that was pretty cool too.  I just wonder what CliffyB thinks of the whole thing.  :)
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