If We Can Built In It, We Will Come

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If We Can Built In It, We Will Come
January 30th 2004, 03:05 CET by Dumdeedum

Making stuff in 3D is slow.  Even once you've dragged yourself up a painful learning curve.  Even once you've mastered a counter-intuitive interface.  Even once you've adopted the Approved Way Of Doing Things.  Even after all that it's still pretty damn sluggish.  Maybe there's no replacement for time and effort, but it doesn't mean things couldn't be simpler.

Epic and Valve both have full-time employees dedicated to working on their editors which means they have some of the best tools in the industry, but both are still largely mimicking the design ideas found in commercial 3D renderers.  So why not use third party software?  Why re-invent the torus when you could use something like Discreet GMax?  Not having to learn a whole new editor for each and every game certainly helps, but 3D modeling software tends to suffer from the same problems as game editors so it's no great gain.

How about the thought of walking through a huge warehouse, picking out doors, windows, tables, walls and suchlike to slot together a bit like a massive game of The Sims?  It sounds nice, and after all, movie directors don't personally build each bit of furniture in their movies so why should game makers?  But even without the copyright issues, prefab models have problems of varying levels of quality, clashing visual themes and incompatible filetypes.  Of course this doesn't invalidate copy & paste entirely, people are unlikely to care too much if the pot plant they're throwing at NPCs looks uncannily like the one they were throwing at NPCs five minutes ago.  But the never-ending-hell-of-yet-another-fucking-square-room that was Halo should stand as a dire warning to all that ctrl-v should be used carefully.  Well, apart from RPG makers.

There's a rather novel idea from the dirty, open-source hippies behind Cube.  Editing levels is done in the game itself, you press E and it toggles to an edit mode where you can fly about pushing and pulling surfaces about (much like the old Duke3D editor) which is nice but not revolutionary, the clever part is they've tied it into the multiplayer code so you can have, for want of a better word, multiediting.  Now I don't see public servers turning out works of levelling art, but a small team working simultaneously on different aspects of a map could theoretically boost creation time significantly.

So how do we take a sad song and make it better?  Can it be made better or is it just hard to model in 3D?  Will Valve's tastefully orange placeholder textures solve everything?  What's the future of level editing?  Is it all Warren's fault?

C O M M E N T S

Home » Topic: If We Can Built In It, We Will Come

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#112 by Hugin
2004-01-30 18:12:26

.38 and 9mm rounds being fired sound like..not much. A cracking sound typically, sort of sharp but not very intimidating. A .45 has a deeper, flatter sound, but still not so much of a big deal. Sort of a banging cough.

.357 and .44 are the only handgun rounds I've experienced that have a legitimately damn loud, booming, cannonlike sound. To the point where I find being around them when they're fired a lot unpleasant. This is assuming standard pressure rounds. +P and +P+ ammo are louder of course. The grip the Desert Eagle has on the imagination of Hollywood always amuses me.

#113 by UncleJeet
2004-01-30 18:16:26

I think it should be noted that The Stranger's pistols sounded very reasonable and realistic. Yay, Nocturne!

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!

#114 by gaggle
2004-01-30 18:16:57

Walking auto-animated ragdolls sets off my moon pony alarm. But yeah if possible to do it'd be pretty neat. I know Hitman uses a rather fancy combination, the animation* is canned, but part of the outfit can be physicsified. The hitman's tie is a simple example, and capes and shit some NPCs wore.

You can accomplish a lot of things with blending as well. If you make a normal walk, and a limbing incapacitated walk, you should be able to blend between them and get all the shades inbetween. If one made enough of such blendable animations it seems possible to have characters that all move slightly apart. Not as sexy as purly dynamic-driven walking, shooting, etc. though.

*refering to the walking, shooting, etc. The deathscenes are indeed full-body dynamic.

#115 by UncleJeet
2004-01-30 18:19:01

It should be noted that Nocturne was amongst the first games to feature a physical cloth simulation. Granted, it mostly just looked like The Stranger had a pack of coked up gerbils tearing around in his ass, but it was there dammit.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!

#116 by Greg
2004-01-30 18:23:31

So the Stranger really was Jerry Penacoli!

-DKI(ID

#117 by Jibble
2004-01-30 18:37:12

Ahh, economic Darwinism, how I love thee.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.

#118 by Sgt Hulka
2004-01-30 18:55:30

I've got a cool pellet gun

He's the worst kind of stupid, the accepting kind.

#119 by Charles
2004-01-30 19:03:34

For the record, I much prefer the grouping of a level artist and a designer in order to make levels for a game instead of just this idea of a 'level designer'.  Making the levels in Max from a pre-determined design is a much better route as far as I'm concerned.  Making the levels in max allows a lot more visual freedom, and it's easier to someone already familiar with max to do it that way.  On the flip side, I find that too many Level Designers (the people who make levels with unrealed) need enough artistic skill that they end up focusing on trying to make the level look good rather than play good.  It also tends to result in more of a "I don't know what I'm doing, so I'll just freeform until I get it" kind of approach.

If you separate it, what you get are two specialized people doing their jobs quickly and efficiently, instead of one person who has to split his skills.

Of course, it requires the industry to accept the idea of a pure designer, and few people are willing to do that.  Which is pretty sad.  Coincidentally, I also feel that's why so many games end up playing like shit.

(Sorry if I'm rehashing points, I wanted to get my views in before the topic went south).

-chris

#120 by Eric T. Cheng
2004-01-30 19:09:59

And when I say using a 3d app sucks as a level editor that's just an opinion of mine, as clearly Eric harbors little or no hatred towards such a workflow.

I worked on projects that used a proprietary level editor and projects that used Max. Since I'm an art monkey that already knows Max I tend to side with using Max. I do see the benefits of having using an engine's proprietary level editor of course.

But in the end I have no say on the matter since it's the suits that decide which engine we use (the best one I've used is the Unreal Tournament 2003. It was love.

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
DVD Collection
GameGossip.com

#121 by bago
2004-01-30 19:26:19

See, the problem with ragdolls is that you've thoroughly mangled this dead body, and the knee still doesn't bend backwards, and those arms are all strong as steel.

The moneky poured coffee in my MOOTZ!

#122 by Jibble
2004-01-30 20:48:38

I eagerly await a game that lets you throw a body into a combine with an adequate body-separation-and-parts-flying physics model.

#123 by UncleJeet
2004-01-30 20:50:33

You could do that in Nocturne, I'm sure of it.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!

#124 by Jibble
2004-01-30 20:52:03

Why must you turn this message board into a house of LIES?!

#125 by Squeaky
2004-01-30 22:54:51

HARDWARE THREAD!

So I'm pretty sure my video card is fucked. This morning when I went to turn on my computer, I was greeted by my monitor happily informing me that there was no signal found. Also, the system refused to POST. Noticing a funny sound emanating from the video card fan, I swapped out the Radeon 9500 Pro with my old Radeon 64MB DDR VIVO. Now everything is hunky-dory again.

I take it the 9500 is fucked?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds

#126 by Jibble
2004-01-30 22:55:29

Send it to me and I'll check it out.

#127 by Charles
2004-01-30 23:12:53

Sounds fucked.

-chris

#128 by Squeaky
2004-01-30 23:21:17

#127 Charles

Sounds fucked.

yeah, I just sent an RMA request to ATI.

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds

#129 by lwf
2004-01-31 00:57:40

ATI is really good about RMA, I even exchanged a stolen MAXX I bought off Polish Mike and they sent me a brand new AIW card that was worth more.

Are you here right now or are there probably fossils under your meat

#130 by Squeaky
2004-01-31 01:14:37

Polish Mike?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds

#131 by lwf
2004-01-31 01:16:32

Shoplifter extraordinaire. A very shady character.

Are you here right now or are there probably fossils under your meat

#132 by Squeaky
2004-01-31 01:23:21

#131 lwf

Shoplifter extraordinaire. A very shady character.

I see, and you know this man from where?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds

#133 by lwf
2004-01-31 01:28:45

High school, I think he had some lackey doing most of the actual shoplifting, mainly from the likes of London Drugs and Future Shop.

Are you here right now or are there probably fossils under your meat

#134 by Squeaky
2004-01-31 01:39:15

#133 lwf

High school, I think he had some lackey doing most of the actual shoplifting, mainly from the likes of London Drugs

I'd like to smash in his head

and Future Shop.

nevermind.

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds

#135 by Huge Wood Farmer
2004-01-31 02:53:48

Fucking Polish.

I don't believe in athiests. -Trolly McTroll

#136 by Eric T. Cheng
2004-01-31 03:08:06

Is she cute?

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
DVD Collection
GameGossip.com

#137 by Bailey
2004-01-31 03:15:18

It's a sort of wax you apply beforehand.

Life without shame.

#138 by Duality
2004-01-31 08:29:59

#122 Jibble

I eagerly await a game that lets you throw a body into a combine with an adequate body-separation-and-parts-flying physics model.

Games need more human-processing facilities like those in Quake 2.

#139 by Squeaky
2004-01-31 09:54:48

geek wet dream?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds

#140 by Shadarr
2004-01-31 10:05:12

No.

#141 by lwf
2004-01-31 10:06:26

I wouldn't fuck them with your dick.

Are you here right now or are there probably fossils under your meat

#142 by Shadarr
2004-01-31 10:07:10

Err... thanks?

#143 by lwf
2004-01-31 10:12:05

Because they're filthy sluts.

Are you here right now or are there probably fossils under your meat

#144 by Gunp01nt
2004-01-31 10:57:00

The one on the left is pretty cute though.

I want a horse that ribbits and a frog that neighs... oink oink oink

#145 by Gunp01nt
2004-01-31 11:47:46

I'm halfway through Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett now, and I must say it's one of the best books I've ever read, if not the best. I go through most English books at about ten pages per night, but I'm cutting through this book like a hot knife through butter. It reads really nice and the funny way Pratchett has of wording things has me giggling all the time. Also, his sense of imagination rocks.

I want a horse that ribbits and a frog that neighs... oink oink oink

#146 by lwf
2004-01-31 12:00:02

I don't think imagination is a sense, smell is though.

Are you here right now or are there probably fossils under your meat

#147 by Gunp01nt
2004-01-31 12:11:59

stfu

I want a horse that ribbits and a frog that neighs... oink oink oink

#148 by Ashiran
2004-01-31 12:55:26

rofl

"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."

#149 by Neale
2004-01-31 13:48:00

Gunp01nt: I just finished that yesterday. It is pretty damn good. I have to hold up Night Watch as his best so far though.

9 years later you're the fat kid with his face pressed against the window of The Industry. - crash

#150 by deadlock
2004-01-31 14:06:58

#149 Neale

Gunp01nt: I just finished that yesterday. It is pretty damn good. I have to hold up Night Watch as his best so far though.

Yeah, Night Watch was pretty good. Vimes is a fantastic character, definitely one of Pratchett's best and certainly the most well fleshed out.

You just don't Get It

#151 by Gunp01nt
2004-01-31 14:29:09

Yeah, I wanted to get Night Watch but it was already gone at the library. I want to read that one after Thief of Time.

I want a horse that ribbits and a frog that neighs... oink oink oink

#152 by OwenButler
2004-01-31 17:07:27

Also just finished night watch. It was damn good. My favorite is still Small Gods or Mort though. Death rocks!

#153 by mgns
2004-01-31 17:48:58

Someone posted a video of some guy playing guitar really strange and fast-like. I've dug through the archives, but I'll be damned if I can find it. Anyone remember what thread that was in?

He leans on the hood telling racing stories, the kids call him Jimmy The Saint.

#154 by Dethstryk
2004-01-31 18:01:08

Justin King is the name.

UT2004 demo in two weeks! I am giddy!

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar

#155 by chris
2004-01-31 18:01:13

Those women need to eat.

-chris

#156 by Dethstryk
2004-01-31 18:06:54

I really hope UT2004 doesn't act like bots are real players. That always pissed me off, but then again, it's a moot point because I never joined UT2003 servers because of how they were all 150% Instagib servers filled with ADD retards.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar

#157 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-31 18:08:27

#155 chris

Those women need to eat.

-chris

I agree. When your arm looks like a pipe cleaner, it's time to put the purging on hold for a little while.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Can’t Handle Femur"

#158 by deadlock
2004-01-31 18:30:51

#155 chris

Those women need to eat.

-chris

Each other?

You just don't Get It

#159 by Jibble
2004-01-31 18:50:40

#139 Squeaky

geek wet dream?

If you mean "waking up in a cold sweat" dream, then yes.

#160 by UncleJeet
2004-01-31 19:00:55

Pratchett's genius lies, I think, in his amazing mastery of flow.  I think too many authors today get too wrapped up in trying to have beautiful, poetic prose and intricately detailed descriptions and they forget, or just don't subscribe to, the idea that the writer's main task is to cause to the reader to forget he's reading.  And that's exactly what happens with Pratchett.  You think you've spent about fifteen minutes reading a dozen pages or so, but it turns out it's more like a couple of hours and you're almost finished with the book.

     Also, his deliberate and stubborn refusal to describe any character or setting beyond the most basic of attributes is one of the things that makes his work so appealing.  Since 98% of what you know about one of his characters comes purely from what he shows them saying and doing, the reader's mind is freed up to conjur up completely unique physical images of them.  More often than not, what ends up happening is you associate each character with someone you know from your own experience and it just makes everything he writes that much more tangible and real, which is especially important when a whole lot of the story is has more than a lean toward the absurd, like the Discworld books so often do.

     Anyway, he's great.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!

#161 by Jibble
2004-01-31 19:01:20

#153 mgns

Someone posted a video of some guy playing guitar really strange and fast-like. I've dug through the archives, but I'll be damned if I can find it. Anyone remember what thread that was in?

I believe it was in the End of Oil thread.

Video.

C O M M E N T S

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