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T O P I C
Doom 3 For Columbine
August 22nd 2003, 09:00 CEST by Mark Lewis

I guess your first stop should be the DTeam home page to see what this mod is about.  I don't think I should try to summarize it in the interest of some sort of fairness.

But there are a few issues that might be interesting to discuss.

As I stated before, I think that there's not a huge chance this mod will be finished (considering that DTeam hasn't completed a mod in a long, long time).  However, I'm curious whether people believe this mod will do as some with DTeam might claim: providing a student with an outlet to vent, instead of taking it out on his school.  Or is DTeam just trying to use this subject matter to hype their conversion?
C O M M E N T S
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#46 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 15:49:28
Well, that's no good. Turns out Satan had an alibi.  He was in the white house putting cigars into a human humidor, repeatedly.

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#47 by deadlock
2003-08-22 15:52:20
http://www.deadlocked.org/
lexx:
He told you all that we would likely fail, since we haven't released anything in so long, and that reaffirmed a lot of your beliefs that this was just a hoax or a publicity stunt.

That's not really smear though, that's venturing an opinion based on (apparently intimate, since he was a member of your team) knowledge of your past. I don't really recall anyone here writing this off as a hoax or a publicity stunt; anyone that's bothered to post on the subject has been underwhelmed, at best. You guys seem to have both a persecution complex and an inflated sense of self-worth, going by what you've said here and on your own website.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#48 by deadlock
2003-08-22 16:01:40
http://www.deadlocked.org/
dolomite's Worklog:
Tuesday August 19, 2003

    * 9:30 am EST. Like Fury.
    * 9:30 am EST. Banned users: now comments and blogs disappear from banned users.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

What was that about censorship?!

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#49 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 16:09:34
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#13 lexx
It still sounds like a shit idea. Sorry.

We welcome people's opinions, but how does this statement help us? If you have some reasons you dislike our story, from the dev documents, please let us know what they are, instead of trolling.

To us, our TC is more interesting than say, Enemy Territory.

How so?  Enemy Territory is great fun.  Your TC sound stupidly offensive.

From your web site :

"Columbine was a dark tragedy, but so was Romeo and Juliet."

Bitch, please.

How unprofessional.

*chortle*

Because anything that's not about guns, chicks and cars is so boring I would rather surf Slashdot than play it.

Then you're definitely part of the solution, not the problem.  (watch out for the sarchasm)

#50 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:18:52
deadlock: What was that about censorship?!

No, actually that was about security. When a user is banned from the site, it's because they can't behave so we have to shut them down. They could be posting malicious code into the site, so this is a fast way to clean our site from scum and bad HTML, too! Fury was free to say anything he wanted to until he came at me with hatemail. That triggered the perm-ban.

We don't want trolls at our site. We ban them the second they act up or can't behave. That way, we have a site of friends, which is all I ever want.

Let's just say that it's okay to disagree without becoming disagreeable. I don't mind people posting comments about how they dislike this TC idea, as long as the comments are well thought and not trollish.

You don't see me using the kind of English that some PC users do, just to prove a point.

Netiquette is a good idea, IMHO.
#51 by m0nty
2003-08-22 16:19:26
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
This is not a bad idea. In fact, I wish more of these sorts of projects were formulated - it's about time games had a bit more political content, especially if the industry wants to consider itself on an artistic par with film making. Mod creators are in the perfect position to make games with a political point, with their lack of accountability and non-corporatised viewpoints.

However, I suspect that most mod makers are terminally inarticulate and politically naive, and the content on the Dteam site only proves this theorem. These guys make Running With Scissors look like Rockstar Games.

I hope this project will not start a trend. I can foresee that mod makers like Dteam will prove so inept at making a coherent, defensible political statement that the gaming industry as a whole will shy away from incorporating politically sensitive subject matter in their storylines, for fear of being lumped in with the incompetent amateurs.
#52 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:22:52
You shure do tawlk purty m0nty.

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#53 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:22:57
Trolly McTroll: A Scapegoat by definition means One that is made to bear the blame of others.

Yeah, I would agree with this statement. The media blamed Doom, when in fact the blame best suits the abusive people at the school, and the lack of gun control in the states, and not to mention the boys that actually did the shooting!!
#54 by Matt Perkins
2003-08-22 16:23:08
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
So your TC just happens to be have Columbine in the title?  You're really saying that?

This a simple publicity stunt that won't work.  Duh.  Talk to Scott Miller about marketing...  Or ask the postal guys about using idiotic violence as a marketing tool.

"...the police, who then investigated themselves and found themselves blameless." - Thai Editoral
#55 by deadlock
2003-08-22 16:28:58
http://www.deadlocked.org/
m0nty:

I wholeheartedly agree about more politics in games (up to a point, obviously). This TC just smacks of bad-taste, juvenile comedy and a half-arsed attempt at justification after the fact.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#56 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:29:00
m0nty: Mod creators are in the perfect position to make games with a political point, with their lack of accountability and non-corporatised viewpoints.

Good point!

m0nty: However, I suspect that most mod makers are terminally inarticulate and politically naive, and the content on the Dteam site only proves this theorem. These guys make Running With Scissors look like Rockstar Games.

Terminally inarticulate? Politically naive? Support these claims or have at thee.

m0nty: I can foresee that mod makers like Dteam will prove so inept at making a coherent, defensible political statement that the gaming industry as a whole will shy away from incorporating politically sensitive subject matter in their storylines, for fear of being lumped in with the incompetent amateurs.

Again, judging the book from its cover. Why not let the TC speak for itself?

What if this TC had quality content, and a rich story?

If you're so smart, why don't you join us and make sure the message is strong? :)

Put your money where your mouth is.
#57 by Hugin
2003-08-22 16:31:07
lmccain@nber.org
lexx, the topic links directly to your own site, without attempting to describe the game in any words but your own.  It then says something (indirectly) that's demonstrably true:  Most mods, especially very ambitious modes, aren't completed.  Now, if you want to claim that your mod team has in fact completed a few things recently and therefore his specific claim is false, that's another issue, but thus far you haven't.  

I have no knowledge or interest in whatever bad blood may be between you or your team and Mark Lewis, but by PC standards, the topic itself is not inflammatory.  

Anyway.  I went to your site. I read the design doc.  I think it's a bad idea. Forget the name for a moment, thoguh I think the name is mildly tasteless..okay, actually, lets talk about the name for  amoment, and your thematic intent here.  

You have a choice: If the game is a commentary on Columbine, then the name is somewhat tasteless and tacky.  You would then in fact be garnering attention and sales on the backs of tragically dead innocent kids and teachers.  If the game isn't particularly about Columbine, and just a well written shooter set in a school, then the name is inapproproate, and still tacky.  If the name is meant to be an ironic/satirical comment on Columbine, I'd say two things:  One, there's practically no segment of your potential audience who will actually get that, because the game itself (as far as can be seen in the design doc anyway) doesn't really support such concepts.  Gamers themselves won't get it or care, and the media, school officials, and law enforcement authorities who may get wind of it are certain to not see the game in this theoretically satirical light.  They're going to see a game set in a school where teenaged players shoot up school aged kids.

If the game isn't going to involve shooting school aged kids, then don't set it in a school, and change the name.  Just make a nice counter-terrorism shooter.  If your team has the skills to actually make the quality of content you're claiming you aim to put into the thing, then you can shift the gameplay into another environment.  Make DOOM3 Counterstrike, or something reminiscent of DOOM3 Die Hard or whatever.  The one interesting idea you've got is the notion of an undercover operative working within some  potentially dangerous organization/environment when it hits the fan, and now he or she has to fight their way out/save lives, etc.  That compelling germ of an idea doesn't require the school setting.

Basically, I see nothing in your design doc that gives me confidence that any ironic commentary that can be discerend by an outside observer will flavor the game strongly enough to override that at the end of the day, you're slapping the name "Columbine" on a shooter set in  school, a game in which some aspect oft he events of the Columbine incident (schoolkids being shot) will inevitably occur, even if you aren't a GTA-esque anti-hero.  I'm not saying anything, at all, about your own motives.  I'm not attempting to attack your character.  I'm just saying, I'm not seeing what you claim you want to be projecting.  I'm seeing just the opposite.  

It's not a matter of having a sense of humor, (Go ahead and make DOOM3: Battle Royale High School or whatever, I'd chortle at heavily armed squads of Cheerleaders engaging in firefights with Goths or what have you.), I just think you're reaching for something conceptually that your toolset and narrative can't possibly grasp, and then there'll be an unnecessary round of reinforcing exactly the exact misconceptions and attitudes about gamers and gaming that you're theoretically protesting.

Change the setting, preferably.  Absolutely change the name.  Not because of my delicate sensibilites, but because it doesn't actually get you what you want.  It doesn't say what you want it to say.
#58 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:31:46
Matt Perkins: So your TC just happens to be have Columbine in the title?  You're really saying that?

No. I'm saying it's there for a good reason. The media blamed Doom for Columbine. We are doing a TC that has a school shooting as the backdrop. The mother of all school shootings is Columbine.

We're going to enlighten everyone about why these things happen, and maybe along the way we'll have a little fun. The fact that we are using Doom 3 to deliver this message is ironic.
#59 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 16:33:44
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#50 lexx
We don't want trolls at our site. We ban them the second they act up or can't behave. That way, we have a site of friends, which is all I ever want.

Nobody to contest your views or ideas.  A brilliant plan, sirrah!

You don't see me using the kind of English that some PC users do, just to prove a point.

No, you take the higher road ... you make mods that offend on a mass scale.

Terminally inarticulate? Politically naive? Support these claims or have at thee.

You're making a mod based on Columbine and have (I believe) Jesus as your avatar.  Care to go for the third strike?

#60 by m0nty
2003-08-22 16:42:34
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
lexx (#56):
Terminally inarticulate? Politically naive? Support these claims or have at thee.

Alrighty then. On articulation, I dare you to identify a single coherent sentence in this blog entry. At first I thought it was so bad that it must be a parody of a rabid ideas man, but then I realised it's so bad, it could only be genuinely heart-felt.


m0nty: I can foresee that mod makers like Dteam will prove so inept at making a coherent, defensible political statement that the gaming industry as a whole will shy away from incorporating politically sensitive subject matter in their storylines, for fear of being lumped in with the incompetent amateurs.

Again, judging the book from its cover. Why not let the TC speak for itself?

What if this TC had quality content, and a rich story?

If you're so smart, why don't you join us and make sure the message is strong? :)

Put your money where your mouth is.

I grant you the point that it is somewhat premature to be discussing this before the mod actually appears. That's why I used the word "foresee" and the phrase "will prove". In any case, when all we have is the cover, the cover is the only thing we can discuss.

As for joining you, I suspect I have no qualities that you would think of as being of benefit to your project.
#61 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:45:17
The media blamed Doom, when in fact the blame best suits the abusive people at the school, and the lack of gun control in the states, and not to mention the boys that actually did the shooting!!


They got the guns through illegal means.  The guns were already controlled.  That did not stop the tragedy.  Evil is to blame for the incident.  There's no other way to look at it.  Satan is real, evil exists.  I tend to think you're making a mod that doesn't need to be made.  Find another cause that more than 3 people care about and run with it.  Like BabyKiller 3D. Yeah, have the player perform abortions for big points!

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#62 by Ashiran
2003-08-22 16:46:51
I have an idea, let's have this discussion when the mod is done.

In the meantime we can sit here quietly and eat bagels.

"Your beam weapons are just a thinly-veiled analogy for giant throbbing plasma cocks violating new orifices in enemy ships." - Bailey
#63 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:47:38
As for joining you, I suspect I have no qualities that you would think of as being of benefit to your project.


Oh m0nty, don't be so hard on yourself.  All amateur mod teams with crazy ideas need a red beard to help even out the coolness factor.  Everybody knows that!

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#64 by Phayyde
2003-08-22 16:49:08
I find the concept of FBI agents going undercover in a high school during an emergency situation confusing.  Why are they undercover?  They'd be more like *taking* cover.

I mean, follow your dreams and all that, sure.  If you can actually produce good content, it doesn't really matter what you call it or who likes you.  

also.. What was the failed mod about?  Pan Am Flight 103 for Heretic II?

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#65 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 16:51:36
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#62 Ashiran
I have an idea, let's have this discussion when the mod is done.

This mod will get done?

#66 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:53:34
Zing!

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#67 by CheesyPoof
2003-08-22 16:58:37
This mod will never be recognized by the media for what you are trying.  The media depicts GTA as the game where you have sex with prostitutes and kill them to get your money back despite that having nothing to do with the core game.  The fact of the matter is your mod will take place in a school, and you will be shooting students.  These are the facts the mainstream media will run with and use to further their agenda against games (News Media is in direct competition against games for peoples time and $$$, so isn't it in their best interested to slag games as much as possible, don't ya think?).  Furthermore, reading the design doc it appears that the armed students will be shooting the unarmed students.  What will you do to penalized the player that kills unarmed students?  GTA is maligned by the media for being a "cop killer simulator" despite penalizing the player for killing police.  How do you think they will react to your mod?

We  can appreciate what you are trying to say, but that's not how it's going to be heard.
#68 by mrbloo
2003-08-22 17:05:44
mrbloo2000@hotmail.com
Hugin,
Go ahead and make DOOM3: Battle Royale High School or whatever, I'd chortle at heavily armed squads of Cheerleaders engaging in firefights with Goths or what have you.

That one sounds like it might be fun!  Each fo the classes could have a special ability, and with some clever writing, the entire mod could be seen as a cutting commentary on the social strata in high schools (have cake + eat cake) as well as being a fun shooter.  Where were you when this gimp was coming up with his moronic, half-baked  idea?

#69 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:12:29
Hugin: Now, if you want to claim that your mod team has in fact completed a few things recently and therefore his specific claim is false, that's another issue, but thus far you haven't.

There was the Geocomp2. And we have released quite a few levels for Quake 3. None are posted on the site because it's one of many facelifts we've had recently. Maybe I'll put a files section up in a little while. As for mods, Dteam has worked on Threewave 4.0, ThunderWalker2, Capture!, Allstar 2, RealCTF, LMCTF, an entity-swapping project for Quake 3, Chaos, Chaos Arena, PainKeep Arena, and I think that's it, but I've likely forgotten a few. We've also helped many people get where they are today, including some well known pros. You could say we're the mother of all mod teams. Members have come and gone, but I've been there since day one, and I have had a part in every project that has come out of our team's minds.

Hugin: If the game isn't particularly about Columbine, and just a well written shooter set in a school, then the name is inapproproate, and still tacky.

I have to disagree. The title is apt. I've explained it several times already, so if you still don't know why we did it, you could look further up this thread.

Hugin: Gamers themselves won't get it or care, and the media, school officials, and law enforcement authorities who may get wind of it are certain to not see the game in this theoretically satirical light.  They're going to see a game set in a school where teenaged players shoot up school aged kids.

Read the doc. That's not at all the premise of the game. This is actually a life-saving game, not a chaos-driven, shooting game. Tactics will be used to get hostages out of the school and take control of the school back from the shooters.

Hugin: If the game isn't going to involve shooting school aged kids, then don't set it in a school, and change the name.

Why? There are already dozens of terrorism games on the shelves. We wanted to focus on school based shootings as our theme, and that's what we're going to do. That's what we *can* do because we aren't in it for money, and there aren't any publishers who can tell us what to do.

Hugin: The one interesting idea you've got is the notion of an undercover operative working within some  potentially dangerous organization/environment when it hits the fan, and now he or she has to fight their way out/save lives, etc.  That compelling germ of an idea doesn't require the school setting.


Thanks! I'm glad you like the idea. While it doesn't require a school, it's our direction on this, and because we're not motivated by profit or popularity, we will follow our own direction. We don't have to be told what to do from others, and that's another reason we are doing this. We know there would be static from everyone about it, but we wanted to do it anyway because it's our right to follow our own artistic direction, as citizens of free nations.

Hugin: It's not a matter of having a sense of humor, (Go ahead and make DOOM3: Battle Royale High School or whatever, I'd chortle at heavily armed squads of Cheerleaders engaging in firefights with Goths or what have you.), I just think you're reaching for something conceptually that your toolset and narrative can't possibly grasp, and then there'll be an unnecessary round of reinforcing exactly the exact misconceptions and attitudes about gamers and gaming that you're theoretically protesting.

That's your belief now, and you're welcome to it. The concept did come up about doing a battle royale type game like Thrill Kill, set in a highschool. We rejected the idea because it wasn't what we wanted to portray. We wanted to have a rich story with elements that the Doom 3 engine would support. We may add a Thrill Kill mode, but I doubt it will see the light of day. We just want to focus on the story, and the quests to save kids from the school. You get points for rescuing hostages and you lose them when one of them are killed by the nerds.

Hugin: Change the setting, preferably.  Absolutely change the name.

Not gonna happen.
#70 by "bill"
2003-08-22 17:13:09
lexx from the site :
We were angered by the media who claimed Doom had anything to do with this shooting,


Why can't you beleive that Doom could have been a trigger for violence?
#71 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 17:14:02
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Of course, if you do make the mod, you could end up arrested under laws such as the one Mank mentioned in the other thread. Plotting/planning a shootout, etc.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#72 by "Anonymous"
2003-08-22 17:14:49
lexx
We're going to enlighten everyone about why these things happen, and maybe along the way we'll have a little fun. The fact that we are using Doom 3 to deliver this message is ironic.


from what I gather from what you call a 'full design doc' but looks more like a quick rant on some blog, you're going to show the cause of high school violence by pointing out the various groups that exist (cheerleaders, jocks, goths, nerds,...), judging from this and other parts:

The main characters listen to Goth music that makes them angry with the system and because they are MTV corrupted youth, they come out blasting when they can't get a social fix.


Now, I'm from Europe. I've never been to the US and I only have an outsider perspective on the situation in American high schools, but this seems a bit cheesy. The image I'm getting is that you're emphasizing on all the cliches to end up with goth vs. jock shootouts and stuff like that. Nothing in your design doc really gives me the feeling that the TC itself will attempt to 'enlighten people'. It sounds more like Postal 2 set in a high school, to be honest.

Of course, there are all these great plans like making it an 'Action RPG', although you don't specify what that's supposed to mean in this context. What RPG elements is this TC going to feature? I'm willing to bet it will just turn out to be a shootfest, which destroys the whole idea behind the TC.
#73 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:15:35
m0nty: Alrighty then. On articulation, I dare you to identify a single coherent sentence in this blog entry.

That blog belongs to skore, who happens to speak German as his first language.
#74 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 17:15:57
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
#70 "bill"
lexx from the site :
We were angered by the media who claimed Doom had anything to do with this shooting,


Why can't you beleive that Doom could have been a trigger for violence?


Oh please.

Newsflash, school violence happened before doom.  Maybe, we should consider that violence is the trigger for games like doom then the other way around.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#75 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-22 17:16:15
supersimon33@hotmail.com
It's ticked off my computer so much that it decided to dump my cookies. You know, out of protest.

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#76 by Matt Perkins
2003-08-22 17:17:52
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
We're going to enlighten everyone about why these things happen, and maybe along the way we'll have a little fun. The fact that we are using Doom 3 to deliver this message is ironic.

Well I'm glad you'll finally set the record straight.  I'm glad someone out there will inform the rest of ignorant monkeys what's really happening with these school shootings.  And I'm particularly glad they'll use the name of the school to generate hype for their mod.  It shows a real understanding of the situation and the feeling surrounding it.

"...the police, who then investigated themselves and found themselves blameless." - Thai Editoral
#77 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-22 17:19:16
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Mention the irony of using the Doom3 engine, Matt! The irony is the key element in creating the awareness.

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#78 by Caryn
2003-08-22 17:20:10
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I agree with everything wholeheartedly in Hugin's post, especially this part:

I just think you're reaching for something conceptually that your toolset and narrative can't possibly grasp, and then there'll be an unnecessary round of reinforcing exactly the exact misconceptions and attitudes about gamers and gaming that you're theoretically protesting.


Now, lexx says this and has said this in various forms throughout this thread:

We're going to enlighten everyone about why these things happen, and maybe along the way we'll have a little fun. The fact that we are using Doom 3 to deliver this message is ironic.


When you have to continually reinforce the irony of something because no one else is seeing it, it's not ironic. You're cobbling together a few weirdly-fitting pieces to construct something you see as brilliantly ironic, but in actuality is not and will likely prove to be more damaging to what you're trying to do than helpful. The more you have to tell us it's brilliant and ironic and enlightening, the less it is. If no one is getting it, no one will get it when the mod is out, and that's not because of any unattainable intellectual depth here -- it's because you've got a deeply flawed concept using hackish methods to draw ironic parallels. And at the very least, this makes the entire project extremely tacky and distasteful.

He said, "child, you've got a long road" - and I said, "good, 'cause I need to be forgiven."
#79 by "bill"
2003-08-22 17:22:56
lpmiller
Oh please.

Newsflash, school violence happened before doom.  Maybe, we should consider that violence is the trigger for games like doom then the other way around.


I was just curious as to how a game would have the ablity to "enlighten everyone about why these things happen", while not being able to trigger the more modest goal of violence.
#80 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:24:40
CheesyPoof: How do you think they will react to your mod?

I'm guessing the media will hate it and the public will loathe it and maybe some people will enjoy it. We aren't really doing this for other people. It's a selfish endeavor. We want to have fun making a game.

Anonymous: The image I'm getting is that you're emphasizing on all the cliches to end up with goth vs. jock shootouts and stuff like that.


Could happen!

LPMiller: Of course, if you do make the mod, you could end up arrested under laws such as the one Mank mentioned in the other thread. Plotting/planning a shootout, etc.


Wouldn't we be martyrs for the cause of freedom of speech, then? And who is going to arrest us? I live in Canada, where we still have real elections, and we aren't afraid of the government, or what might happen if we don't tow the party line. If I get arrested for making a TC for Doom 3, so be it.
#81 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-22 17:25:14
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Bill
I was just curious as to how a game would have the ablity to "enlighten everyone about why these things happen", while not being able to trigger the more modest goal of violence.


It won't. Note that we're dealing with a very special breed of troll, namely the Overconfident Idea Man.

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#82 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-22 17:27:12
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Lexx
Could happen!


I must say, it's a wonderful way of showing that games don't cause violence. Simply marvellous.

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#83 by "bill"
2003-08-22 17:29:03
"I live in Canada, where we still have real elections,"

haha. that's why paul martin isn't going to be the next pm.
#84 by Caryn
2003-08-22 17:31:18
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
#80 lexx
I'm guessing the media will hate it and the public will loathe it and maybe some people will enjoy it. We aren't really doing this for other people. It's a selfish endeavor. We want to have fun making a game.


Wait, wait, wait. You've just spent the entire thread telling us that you're goal is this:

We're going to enlighten everyone about why these things happen, and maybe along the way we'll have a little fun. The fact that we are using Doom 3 to deliver this message is ironic.


And according to your web site:

We decided to call our TC this name to protest the media's blatant use of scapegoating in the Columbine shootings. Our TC happens at a fictitious school shooting sometime after Columbine took place.


Well, which is it? First you claim that your goal is to enlighten the unwashed masses, insisting that everyone will see the brilliant irony as soon as it's done. Then you go on to say that you're pretty sure the very people you're attempting to enlighten will hate and loathe it, and you're only doing this to have fun.

You're completely contradicting yourself, and this is the core problem with your project and why you have no coherent message in what you're attempting to do.

He said, "child, you've got a long road" - and I said, "good, 'cause I need to be forgiven."
#85 by TheTrunkDr.
2003-08-22 17:32:20
It's a selfish endeavor. We want to have fun making a game.

I call bullshit, if you really just want to make a game for the fun of making it there's no need to release it publicly or even inform the public. I do believe you when you say it's a selfish endeavor however, you're clearly not doing this for anyone else's benefit. Infact this sort of tripe will do a dis-service to the games industry as a whole. I would like to thank you for making the industry take a step backwards from gaining mainstream acceptance. I'm just thankful this thing is never likely to come out and I hope this is as much press at it will ever get.

I kid cause I care.
#86 by "bill"
2003-08-22 17:33:34
to Gunp01nt:

so games are just mindless time wasters, incabable of relaying any sort of message. I just want to be clear on that.
#87 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 17:36:23
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
We aren't really doing this for other people. It's a selfish endeavor. We want to have fun making a game.

Right, which explains the public web page, the announcements and the inevitable public release.

Because you aren't making the mod for other people.

If I get arrested for making a TC for Doom 3, so be it.

Said with internet based balls of steel.

#88 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:36:24
Hellchick: You're cobbling together a few weirdly-fitting pieces to construct something you see as brilliantly ironic, but in actuality is not and will likely prove to be more damaging to what you're trying to do than helpful.

There! You found the irony. :)

The irony is that when you try to do anything in America, if it doesn't sit well with the media, you can't do it because of the almighty dollar. Unless you are in the position to do it anyway, because there is no money involved. Money is censorship, to an extent. People have lost their senses when it comes to right and wrong, expressively.

This is only about expression.

Caryn, you work at Activision. You know what I'm talking about with SoF, right? The media came down on it because of some unrelated aspect of the game; racism. How silly that was. We all know it was just an element in the game that your enemy was from that part of the world, and would have racial cultural aspects different from the American soldiers.

One final point. I don't really care what happens to the industry, because it's done nothing for me, except take my money and waste my time. It's a form of entertainment that should be freely expressive, and it's not. Even Vice City wasn't as over the top as it could have been/should have been.
#89 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:38:13
Caryn: Well, which is it? First you claim that your goal is to enlighten the unwashed masses, insisting that everyone will see the brilliant irony as soon as it's done. Then you go on to say that you're pretty sure the very people you're attempting to enlighten will hate and loathe it, and you're only doing this to have fun.[/quit]

It's a little of both. You'll just have to wait and see. :)
#90 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:38:41
Doh. Funny that UBB code, is.
#91 by Greg
2003-08-22 17:39:48
Yes, because games are more for making a statement than for being entertaining.

And lexx, from what I remember, the backlash over SOF was mainly due to the over-the-top gore.

We are OK in a misguided, sadist way.
We are OK in a disabled veteran's way.
We are OK.
#92 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:40:02
bill: haha. that's why paul martin isn't going to be the next pm.

Not if I have anything to do with it! *grumble*
#93 by lexx
2003-08-22 17:41:08
Greg: it was the racism.
#94 by Caryn
2003-08-22 17:41:21
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
#88 lexx
There! You found the irony. :)

The irony is that when you try to do anything in America, if it doesn't sit well with the media, you can't do it because of the almighty dollar. Unless you are in the position to do it anyway, because there is no money involved. Money is censorship, to an extent. People have lost their senses when it comes to right and wrong, expressively.


This is (a) not ironic and (b) has nothing to do with Columbine or high school shootings in general. Again, it's a badly cobbled-together construct in an attempt to justify your point, which is not ironic. I think you greatly misunderstand the meaning of irony.

Caryn, you work at Activision. You know what I'm talking about with SoF, right?


This has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Why should the fact that my company made a realistic game with blood and gore cause me to immediately identify with your project? It doesn't in the least, and I shouldn't have to explain why. SoF and its subject matter and its reasons for being have nothing in parallel with your mod.

He said, "child, you've got a long road" - and I said, "good, 'cause I need to be forgiven."
#95 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 17:46:50
Caryn "my company"


Currently #4 in the Top 20 Publishers according to my latest copy of GameDeveloper Magazine.

Way to go Caryn!  Keep up the great work.

As for naming this yet to be completed mod with Columbine in the title, why not? It worked for Roger Moore and he got a fucking Oscar for his insipid piece of shit.

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
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