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T O P I C
Doom 3 For Columbine
August 22nd 2003, 09:00 CEST by Mark Lewis

I guess your first stop should be the DTeam home page to see what this mod is about.  I don't think I should try to summarize it in the interest of some sort of fairness.

But there are a few issues that might be interesting to discuss.

As I stated before, I think that there's not a huge chance this mod will be finished (considering that DTeam hasn't completed a mod in a long, long time).  However, I'm curious whether people believe this mod will do as some with DTeam might claim: providing a student with an outlet to vent, instead of taking it out on his school.  Or is DTeam just trying to use this subject matter to hype their conversion?
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Home » Topic: Doom 3 For Columbine

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#18 by deadlock
2003-08-22 13:10:20
http://www.deadlocked.org/
This 'dolomite' character is familiary to me. Can anyone tell me why? (hint: Monty Python).

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#19 by Dethstryk
2003-08-22 13:39:00
jemartin@tcainternet.com
It's fairly obvious that the only reason "Columbine" is in the title is to have people talk about it, and to get press that way. It's a marketing ploy that is simultaneously disgusting and jerk-off'ish. I say fuck off to this particular group of mod-makers for the exploitation of tragedy.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#20 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-22 13:45:42
supersimon33@hotmail.com
And they certainly love publicity

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#21 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-22 13:46:34
supersimon33@hotmail.com
BTW, wasn't Dolomite the guy who made that half-ass interview with Morn and then spammed everyone's e-mail with a link to the story?

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#22 by deadlock
2003-08-22 13:49:49
http://www.deadlocked.org/
congrats to gunpoint.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#23 by Dethstryk
2003-08-22 14:00:22
jemartin@tcainternet.com
We are posted at Planetcrap, which is kind of cool, since we were posted there once before, for something embarassing.
Hey, jack-off. This is also embarassing, even if you fail to realize it.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#24 by Chunkstyle
2003-08-22 14:12:03
We decided to call our TC this name to protest the media's blatant use of scapegoating in the Columbine shootings.

How will your "protest" change anyones opinions?  The media people who were quick to jump on FPSs as a reason for Columbine will not be smart enough to realize this is a protest.  The media would be more likely to point to your conversion as evidence that games need to be regulated.

And Heaven help us if any murderer was ever found to have your tc on their computer.  You and I would know the game didn't cause the killings.  The general public, who love simple answers, would not.

There's joy in repetition.
#25 by deadlock
2003-08-22 14:21:05
http://www.deadlocked.org/
In short: inside jokes are not an effective form of protest, by definition.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#26 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 14:30:02
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Yeah, going into a school to prevent teens from going on a ramapage that I guess we are just going to assume they will go on and....Not seeing the media loving you here.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#27 by "Mr. PoPo FuckOFF"
2003-08-22 14:32:26
You gotta love controversy. Unlike most MOD's out there, atleast this TC is challenging peoples perseptions of something, but at the very least thou you get funny neuro glandular responses from guys like Deadlock.
#28 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 14:34:11
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I do not, in fact, have to like controversy.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#29 by "Mr. PoPo FuckOFF"
2003-08-22 14:36:08
You don't have to like your wheaties either, but there good for you.
#30 by Matthew Gallant
2003-08-22 14:39:36
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
#7 lexx
Our TC happens at a fictitious school shooting sometime after Columbine took place. You play the role of an undercover agent trying to save lives.

You should probably call it something else then.

"All I've ever wanted to be is a monkey of moderate intelligence that wears a suit. That's why I'm transferring to business school!"
#31 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 14:46:52
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
#29 "Mr. PoPo FuckOFF"
You don't have to like your wheaties either, but there good for you.


Where good for me now?

I believe I can fly......urk.
#32 by deadlock
2003-08-22 14:49:13
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Although I'm reticent about entering into a serious conversation with some called 'Mr. Popo fuckoff', I'll bite.

How exactly is this mod going to challenge people's perceptions? The more reactionary elements of the media and political establishment already think that videogames are an overly violent, sexist medium. And DTeam are going to change that perception by... er... producing a TC that is overly violent? And don't tell me that it's mocking or tongue in cheek - like I said, in-jokes are not an effective form of protest. Most of the games that the knee-jerk media tend to jump on are intended to be tongue in cheek and satirical.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#33 by "Mr. PoPo FuckOFF"
2003-08-22 15:10:58
To: Mr. Deadlock

You know what, your absolutely right. The "knee-jerk" media and other like-minded individuals will probably jump all over this. Take the move Fightclub for example, I remember when it cam out the media condoned it as just an overly violent movie with no redeeming qualities. I'm pretty sure even after the movie and its ideas have had time to ferment the "knee-jerk" media sill fails to see the clever anti-capitalism/anti-consumerism motives inherit in it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there will always be those people out there that take everything for what they see at the glance of a cover, and that's too bad for them. Then there are those that are willing to look past the cover, whether it's bad or good is their opinion. All in all, don't knock the TC until it's finished. Ideas are ideas, and what comes out at the other end could either be pure shit or something wonderful.

Btw, would you prefer if I had a more serious name, such as "DeathWatch" or "LegLOCK" or how about "The Evil Congruent-X" (All of course being said in serious announcer type voice.)
#34 by deadlock
2003-08-22 15:18:18
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Honestly? I'd prefer if you just logged in.

As for the rest - maybe you have a point, but if you do then all I can say is that DTeam are merely preaching to the converted. And still not being particularly exciting while they're doing it.

And if Dolomite et al. are genuine about challenging perceptions, then why not do something that proves that videogames don't all have to be about guns, chicks and cars?

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#35 by lexx
2003-08-22 15:24:48
It's fairly obvious that the only reason "Columbine" is in the title is to have people talk about it, and to get press that way.

Just to get press? You could say that about any apt title, really. That is the point of a title, FYI.

As for this particular news posting at PC... it wasn't the result of our TC name that caused this, at all.

Mark Lewis was once a member of Dteam, who went by the nickname of Fury; he resigned because of this TC. He said he didn't want to be associated with a group that would do anything remotely near a school shooting, even if it was just a back-story piece.

This story likely came about because we banned him from our website, after he emailed me several disturbing hatemails on the subject, where he insulted my integrity and reminded me of previous mod failings from a few years back, and how we wouldn't succeed at this TC. I think Mark felt the need to retaliate, so he smeared us at Planet Crap.

How unprofessional.
#36 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 15:25:11
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
You sirrah, are mad. Mad!!!

I believe I can fly......urk.
#37 by LPMiller
2003-08-22 15:26:52
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
#35 lexx
I think Mark felt the need to retaliate, so he smeared us at Planet Crap.

How unprofessional.


You do not understand the concept of Planetcrap if you see this as unprofessional.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#38 by lwf
2003-08-22 15:27:40
Planetcrap? Smear? Whatfuck.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I admire her commitment to community service.
#39 by deadlock
2003-08-22 15:29:41
http://www.deadlocked.org/
lexx:

What you say may or may not be true, but in fairness to Mark, he didn't express any particular opinion on either DTeam or your mod in his topic. I hardly think that providing a link and asking for an opinion amounts to 'smear'.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#40 by "Mr. PoPo FuckOFF"
2003-08-22 15:30:17
I'm here just for the view, not for the services.

Like I said, you don't know what the mod will be like until it's finished. On the surface it will probably look just like any other overly violent shooter. But it's intentions and the point of it will probably lay somewhere else.

Is it possible that there is such a thing a meaningful violence? Is the violence involved in self-defence not meaningful? You could be right thou, maybe asfar as Doom being linked to and blamed for Columbine the Dteam should just pull a Gandhi, but...where the hell is the "fun" in that.
#41 by lexx
2003-08-22 15:32:04
deadlock: And if Dolomite et al. are genuine about challenging perceptions, then why not do something that proves that videogames don't all have to be about guns, chicks and cars?

Because anything that's not about guns, chicks and cars is so boring I would rather surf Slashdot than play it.

Mr. PoPo FuckOFF: Then there are those that are willing to look past the cover, whether it's bad or good is their opinion.

Judging a book by its cover is indeed an admission of stupidity, or impatience.
#42 by lexx
2003-08-22 15:40:51
Dethstryk: Hey, jack-off. This is also embarassing, even if you fail to realize it.

How so? I find it somewhat embarassing that Mark Lewis decided to seek revenge by smearing us here, but I'm embarassed for him, because he's a member of the game design community.

I'm embarassed for you for talking about jacking off all the time. Don't you get enough of it on your own time?

deadlock: What you say may or may not be true, but in fairness to Mark, he didn't express any particular opinion on either DTeam or your mod in his topic.

Sure he did. He told you all that we would likely fail, since we haven't released anything in so long, and that reaffirmed a lot of your beliefs that this was just a hoax or a publicity stunt. Using some spin, he managed to make you all believe that we are only using a name for some press and nothing will come of it.

LPMiller: You do not understand the concept of Planetcrap if you see this as unprofessional.

Well, I guess if you mean PC is a troll's nest, then I do understand it. :)
#43 by lwf
2003-08-22 15:44:17
Where is the smearing, WHERE? Any mention whatsoever of your TC is considered slag?

Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!
#44 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 15:45:34
We decided to call our TC this name to protest the media's blatant use of scapegoating in the Columbine shootings.


What the fuck does this mean?  A Scapegoat by definition means One that is made to bear the blame of others. Tell me wizards of the amateur mod scene how a school can be blamed for this tragedy, and if not the school, what do you mean by Columbine?  The city itself?  The city is responsible for the tragedy?  And how the fuck is a game going to make people change their perceptions.  Their perceptions of what?  That these two demonic kids shot up a bunch of kids?  That's fact.  What made them do it?

Oh I don't know.. maybe, well.. perhaps SATAN!.

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#45 by lwf
2003-08-22 15:47:35
Yeah, satan is a good scapegoat.

Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!
#46 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 15:49:28
Well, that's no good. Turns out Satan had an alibi.  He was in the white house putting cigars into a human humidor, repeatedly.

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#47 by deadlock
2003-08-22 15:52:20
http://www.deadlocked.org/
lexx:
He told you all that we would likely fail, since we haven't released anything in so long, and that reaffirmed a lot of your beliefs that this was just a hoax or a publicity stunt.

That's not really smear though, that's venturing an opinion based on (apparently intimate, since he was a member of your team) knowledge of your past. I don't really recall anyone here writing this off as a hoax or a publicity stunt; anyone that's bothered to post on the subject has been underwhelmed, at best. You guys seem to have both a persecution complex and an inflated sense of self-worth, going by what you've said here and on your own website.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#48 by deadlock
2003-08-22 16:01:40
http://www.deadlocked.org/
dolomite's Worklog:
Tuesday August 19, 2003

    * 9:30 am EST. Like Fury.
    * 9:30 am EST. Banned users: now comments and blogs disappear from banned users.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

What was that about censorship?!

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#49 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 16:09:34
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#13 lexx
It still sounds like a shit idea. Sorry.

We welcome people's opinions, but how does this statement help us? If you have some reasons you dislike our story, from the dev documents, please let us know what they are, instead of trolling.

To us, our TC is more interesting than say, Enemy Territory.

How so?  Enemy Territory is great fun.  Your TC sound stupidly offensive.

From your web site :

"Columbine was a dark tragedy, but so was Romeo and Juliet."

Bitch, please.

How unprofessional.

*chortle*

Because anything that's not about guns, chicks and cars is so boring I would rather surf Slashdot than play it.

Then you're definitely part of the solution, not the problem.  (watch out for the sarchasm)

#50 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:18:52
deadlock: What was that about censorship?!

No, actually that was about security. When a user is banned from the site, it's because they can't behave so we have to shut them down. They could be posting malicious code into the site, so this is a fast way to clean our site from scum and bad HTML, too! Fury was free to say anything he wanted to until he came at me with hatemail. That triggered the perm-ban.

We don't want trolls at our site. We ban them the second they act up or can't behave. That way, we have a site of friends, which is all I ever want.

Let's just say that it's okay to disagree without becoming disagreeable. I don't mind people posting comments about how they dislike this TC idea, as long as the comments are well thought and not trollish.

You don't see me using the kind of English that some PC users do, just to prove a point.

Netiquette is a good idea, IMHO.
#51 by m0nty
2003-08-22 16:19:26
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
This is not a bad idea. In fact, I wish more of these sorts of projects were formulated - it's about time games had a bit more political content, especially if the industry wants to consider itself on an artistic par with film making. Mod creators are in the perfect position to make games with a political point, with their lack of accountability and non-corporatised viewpoints.

However, I suspect that most mod makers are terminally inarticulate and politically naive, and the content on the Dteam site only proves this theorem. These guys make Running With Scissors look like Rockstar Games.

I hope this project will not start a trend. I can foresee that mod makers like Dteam will prove so inept at making a coherent, defensible political statement that the gaming industry as a whole will shy away from incorporating politically sensitive subject matter in their storylines, for fear of being lumped in with the incompetent amateurs.
#52 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:22:52
You shure do tawlk purty m0nty.

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#53 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:22:57
Trolly McTroll: A Scapegoat by definition means One that is made to bear the blame of others.

Yeah, I would agree with this statement. The media blamed Doom, when in fact the blame best suits the abusive people at the school, and the lack of gun control in the states, and not to mention the boys that actually did the shooting!!
#54 by Matt Perkins
2003-08-22 16:23:08
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
So your TC just happens to be have Columbine in the title?  You're really saying that?

This a simple publicity stunt that won't work.  Duh.  Talk to Scott Miller about marketing...  Or ask the postal guys about using idiotic violence as a marketing tool.

"...the police, who then investigated themselves and found themselves blameless." - Thai Editoral
#55 by deadlock
2003-08-22 16:28:58
http://www.deadlocked.org/
m0nty:

I wholeheartedly agree about more politics in games (up to a point, obviously). This TC just smacks of bad-taste, juvenile comedy and a half-arsed attempt at justification after the fact.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#56 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:29:00
m0nty: Mod creators are in the perfect position to make games with a political point, with their lack of accountability and non-corporatised viewpoints.

Good point!

m0nty: However, I suspect that most mod makers are terminally inarticulate and politically naive, and the content on the Dteam site only proves this theorem. These guys make Running With Scissors look like Rockstar Games.

Terminally inarticulate? Politically naive? Support these claims or have at thee.

m0nty: I can foresee that mod makers like Dteam will prove so inept at making a coherent, defensible political statement that the gaming industry as a whole will shy away from incorporating politically sensitive subject matter in their storylines, for fear of being lumped in with the incompetent amateurs.

Again, judging the book from its cover. Why not let the TC speak for itself?

What if this TC had quality content, and a rich story?

If you're so smart, why don't you join us and make sure the message is strong? :)

Put your money where your mouth is.
#57 by Hugin
2003-08-22 16:31:07
lmccain@nber.org
lexx, the topic links directly to your own site, without attempting to describe the game in any words but your own.  It then says something (indirectly) that's demonstrably true:  Most mods, especially very ambitious modes, aren't completed.  Now, if you want to claim that your mod team has in fact completed a few things recently and therefore his specific claim is false, that's another issue, but thus far you haven't.  

I have no knowledge or interest in whatever bad blood may be between you or your team and Mark Lewis, but by PC standards, the topic itself is not inflammatory.  

Anyway.  I went to your site. I read the design doc.  I think it's a bad idea. Forget the name for a moment, thoguh I think the name is mildly tasteless..okay, actually, lets talk about the name for  amoment, and your thematic intent here.  

You have a choice: If the game is a commentary on Columbine, then the name is somewhat tasteless and tacky.  You would then in fact be garnering attention and sales on the backs of tragically dead innocent kids and teachers.  If the game isn't particularly about Columbine, and just a well written shooter set in a school, then the name is inapproproate, and still tacky.  If the name is meant to be an ironic/satirical comment on Columbine, I'd say two things:  One, there's practically no segment of your potential audience who will actually get that, because the game itself (as far as can be seen in the design doc anyway) doesn't really support such concepts.  Gamers themselves won't get it or care, and the media, school officials, and law enforcement authorities who may get wind of it are certain to not see the game in this theoretically satirical light.  They're going to see a game set in a school where teenaged players shoot up school aged kids.

If the game isn't going to involve shooting school aged kids, then don't set it in a school, and change the name.  Just make a nice counter-terrorism shooter.  If your team has the skills to actually make the quality of content you're claiming you aim to put into the thing, then you can shift the gameplay into another environment.  Make DOOM3 Counterstrike, or something reminiscent of DOOM3 Die Hard or whatever.  The one interesting idea you've got is the notion of an undercover operative working within some  potentially dangerous organization/environment when it hits the fan, and now he or she has to fight their way out/save lives, etc.  That compelling germ of an idea doesn't require the school setting.

Basically, I see nothing in your design doc that gives me confidence that any ironic commentary that can be discerend by an outside observer will flavor the game strongly enough to override that at the end of the day, you're slapping the name "Columbine" on a shooter set in  school, a game in which some aspect oft he events of the Columbine incident (schoolkids being shot) will inevitably occur, even if you aren't a GTA-esque anti-hero.  I'm not saying anything, at all, about your own motives.  I'm not attempting to attack your character.  I'm just saying, I'm not seeing what you claim you want to be projecting.  I'm seeing just the opposite.  

It's not a matter of having a sense of humor, (Go ahead and make DOOM3: Battle Royale High School or whatever, I'd chortle at heavily armed squads of Cheerleaders engaging in firefights with Goths or what have you.), I just think you're reaching for something conceptually that your toolset and narrative can't possibly grasp, and then there'll be an unnecessary round of reinforcing exactly the exact misconceptions and attitudes about gamers and gaming that you're theoretically protesting.

Change the setting, preferably.  Absolutely change the name.  Not because of my delicate sensibilites, but because it doesn't actually get you what you want.  It doesn't say what you want it to say.
#58 by lexx
2003-08-22 16:31:46
Matt Perkins: So your TC just happens to be have Columbine in the title?  You're really saying that?

No. I'm saying it's there for a good reason. The media blamed Doom for Columbine. We are doing a TC that has a school shooting as the backdrop. The mother of all school shootings is Columbine.

We're going to enlighten everyone about why these things happen, and maybe along the way we'll have a little fun. The fact that we are using Doom 3 to deliver this message is ironic.
#59 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 16:33:44
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#50 lexx
We don't want trolls at our site. We ban them the second they act up or can't behave. That way, we have a site of friends, which is all I ever want.

Nobody to contest your views or ideas.  A brilliant plan, sirrah!

You don't see me using the kind of English that some PC users do, just to prove a point.

No, you take the higher road ... you make mods that offend on a mass scale.

Terminally inarticulate? Politically naive? Support these claims or have at thee.

You're making a mod based on Columbine and have (I believe) Jesus as your avatar.  Care to go for the third strike?

#60 by m0nty
2003-08-22 16:42:34
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
lexx (#56):
Terminally inarticulate? Politically naive? Support these claims or have at thee.

Alrighty then. On articulation, I dare you to identify a single coherent sentence in this blog entry. At first I thought it was so bad that it must be a parody of a rabid ideas man, but then I realised it's so bad, it could only be genuinely heart-felt.


m0nty: I can foresee that mod makers like Dteam will prove so inept at making a coherent, defensible political statement that the gaming industry as a whole will shy away from incorporating politically sensitive subject matter in their storylines, for fear of being lumped in with the incompetent amateurs.

Again, judging the book from its cover. Why not let the TC speak for itself?

What if this TC had quality content, and a rich story?

If you're so smart, why don't you join us and make sure the message is strong? :)

Put your money where your mouth is.

I grant you the point that it is somewhat premature to be discussing this before the mod actually appears. That's why I used the word "foresee" and the phrase "will prove". In any case, when all we have is the cover, the cover is the only thing we can discuss.

As for joining you, I suspect I have no qualities that you would think of as being of benefit to your project.
#61 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:45:17
The media blamed Doom, when in fact the blame best suits the abusive people at the school, and the lack of gun control in the states, and not to mention the boys that actually did the shooting!!


They got the guns through illegal means.  The guns were already controlled.  That did not stop the tragedy.  Evil is to blame for the incident.  There's no other way to look at it.  Satan is real, evil exists.  I tend to think you're making a mod that doesn't need to be made.  Find another cause that more than 3 people care about and run with it.  Like BabyKiller 3D. Yeah, have the player perform abortions for big points!

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#62 by Ashiran
2003-08-22 16:46:51
I have an idea, let's have this discussion when the mod is done.

In the meantime we can sit here quietly and eat bagels.

"Your beam weapons are just a thinly-veiled analogy for giant throbbing plasma cocks violating new orifices in enemy ships." - Bailey
#63 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:47:38
As for joining you, I suspect I have no qualities that you would think of as being of benefit to your project.


Oh m0nty, don't be so hard on yourself.  All amateur mod teams with crazy ideas need a red beard to help even out the coolness factor.  Everybody knows that!

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#64 by Phayyde
2003-08-22 16:49:08
I find the concept of FBI agents going undercover in a high school during an emergency situation confusing.  Why are they undercover?  They'd be more like *taking* cover.

I mean, follow your dreams and all that, sure.  If you can actually produce good content, it doesn't really matter what you call it or who likes you.  

also.. What was the failed mod about?  Pan Am Flight 103 for Heretic II?

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#65 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-22 16:51:36
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#62 Ashiran
I have an idea, let's have this discussion when the mod is done.

This mod will get done?

#66 by Trolly McTroll
2003-08-22 16:53:34
Zing!

"..and Trolly McTroll is the best name EVER. I laugh every time I see it."  - ZEP
" If i ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Trolly. - The_Joker
#67 by CheesyPoof
2003-08-22 16:58:37
This mod will never be recognized by the media for what you are trying.  The media depicts GTA as the game where you have sex with prostitutes and kill them to get your money back despite that having nothing to do with the core game.  The fact of the matter is your mod will take place in a school, and you will be shooting students.  These are the facts the mainstream media will run with and use to further their agenda against games (News Media is in direct competition against games for peoples time and $$$, so isn't it in their best interested to slag games as much as possible, don't ya think?).  Furthermore, reading the design doc it appears that the armed students will be shooting the unarmed students.  What will you do to penalized the player that kills unarmed students?  GTA is maligned by the media for being a "cop killer simulator" despite penalizing the player for killing police.  How do you think they will react to your mod?

We  can appreciate what you are trying to say, but that's not how it's going to be heard.
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Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
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