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Doom 3 - Running scared of Valve?
July 24th 2003, 00:36 CEST by Neale Doom 3 appears to have been delayed (not pushed back - it seems to be id's decision). The cynic in me suggests two possibilities: 1) They don't want a SiN/Half-Life release situation (not that I think Doom 3 will turn out like SiN) where sales will be affected by HL2's popularity. 2) They're reworking portions of the gameplay after seeing the level of interactivity and enormous interest in HL2. Thoughts? |
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Topic: Doom 3 - Running scared of Valve?
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My eyes! You can't derail this train of idiocy, Shadarr. Not even with a big fat cow of logic on the tracks. - Bailey
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I can believe that the default gender is female - but I think it goes further than the womb. There are several times in a man's life where he will suddenly be confronted with the fact that somewhere deep inside him is a fetal girl child. Case in point: Wedding planning. In my situation, since Disney is handling all of the actual wedding proceedings, it's more like Reception planning for the big to-do we're having when we get back home from the honeymoon since most everyone we know can't get to Disneyworld for the wedding itself. Anywho, there is apparently going to be a mailbox set up at the reception. I assumed it was for marital advice and whatnot, but it appears it's more for people who feel the need to give me money for having gotten married. Fine by me. The thing is, the mailbox barely resembles a mailbox at this time. It is completely covered in frilly lace, with shiny little bits here and there. Even the flag on the side is decked out in doiley-like costuming. When presented with this great shrine to girlish femininity, I was expected to be thrilled at its wonder. Instead, I found myself faced with a dilema. While the prospect of the Shrine of Lace to bring in monetary gain was alluring, it was not enough to make me overlook one unavoidable fact: If I were to get excited over the lacy craftsmanship of this fancy looking box I would not, in fact, be marrying a woman. I recognize the beauty of the object, and appreciate the effort involved. However, it's the same level of recognition and appreciation that I would give to something like Sid Meyer's Alpha Centaui. I can see that it's a good game and well made, but it does absolutely nothing for me and I didn't really like playing it. This is why men still have nipples, I think. It's enough to remind us that we do have a femynyn side (i before e, except after man?), but not so much that we fill our closets with shoes we never wear and lose all ability to cook over an open charcol flame. I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
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Cripes! Do they have to show pictures of the dead Hussein boys on the Excite new pages? I mean sure, put the pictures out there for verification, but not at the front page. Now I see dead people and I'm all ooggied out. |
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They aren't dead. They're just burned and bloodied and sleeping. We are OK in a misguided, sadist way.
We are OK in a disabled veteran's way. We are OK. |
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When did Aquaman become a drag queen? |
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#70 by mrbloo That 'she', 'her' stuff in game books is an abomination. I think White Wolf did this first in their books. One dumb card game got femmed up by WOTC and the editor didn't catch the original rule where 'the player with the longest beard goes first.' Really, if it's a problem, go with the impersonal ('the player', 'they' etc.). It's not as tidy, but it works and doesn't make you look like a fucknugget. Why is it an abomination? Why does referring to a theoretical player as female make anyone look like a "fucknugget"? |
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The default pronoun historically is male. The genderless pronoun is "they". Using female pronouns everywhere is either done to force people to think about gender issues or just some dumbass being cute. Either way, it gets in the way of readability. |
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The photos are unimpressive. They've got nothing on rotten.com. |
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The default gender is male for stupid reasons. More than half the population is female, and if people have to think about that once in a while, then good. Acknowledging women exist isn't being cute. And it only gets in the way of readibility if your hostility to the idea of anything being associated with a female gender is so high, you can't get past it. I agree with you totally on things like (S)he and Hir and stuff like that, but otherwise, I just think it's another case of male gamers being juvenile, sexist assholes. |
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Actually, "they" is incorrect as it refers to multiple people, so replacing "he" or "she" with "they" is grammatically incorrect. SNIKT!
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Hugin, Why is it an abomination? Why does referring to a theoretical player as female make anyone look like a "fucknugget"? Because it's a political correctism gone mad. It's ugly and jarring. It doesn't match the target audience. If it's some misguided effort to make role-playing more appealing to women, then it's nothing more than a token sop. The approach Call of Cthulhu took was more balanced with a mix of male and female NPCs in their examples, rather than just a blanket assumption that all players are male or female. The horror games like Vampire and Call of Cthulhu do have a larger female audience, but I'd be stunned if it even comes close to 10% of the player base. It's only one level above using combined, made-up pronouns like 'herm' and 'hesh'. Those I really despise. Maybe it's an acceptable backlash after years of cheesecake book covers and sexist female stereotypes, but it's not a step in the right direction. |
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You think referring to NPCs or whatever in a book as "her" and "she" is ugly and jarring? Jesus. |
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I know it's gramatically incorrect, but I like "they" a lot better than either "him/her" or alternating genders. In the absense of an actual genderless pronoun, it's the defacto standard. Using the female gender exclusively as a "genderless" pronoun tells everyone who's reading that you put some thought into it, and this is the best you could come up with. Using male exclusively tells people you're either lazy or a traditionalist, and I have nothing against people being lazy. |
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Feminists segregate themselves and blame it on others. Cheesy I really hope I get to see the Uday and Qusay photos. I hope the release more than just a head shot and see the whole body. It'll be like those old gangster photos of the 30's. Rotten.com will probably be your best bet. Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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Actually, "they" is incorrect as it refers to multiple people, so replacing "he" or "she" with "they" is grammatically incorrect. While true, I think the usage on this point may increase to the point where it becomes generally accepted. "Take Two needs to STFU imo." - G30rg3 Br0uzz4rd
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I'm really looking forward to Quake4. Hopefully it does, in fact, stand as a worthy sequel to Quake 2, which is the second best multiplayer FPS of all time (after Planetside). "Take Two needs to STFU imo." - G30rg3 Br0uzz4rd
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Hugin, You think referring to NPCs or whatever in a book as "her" and "she" is ugly and jarring? Jesus. Not at all. Like I said, in Call of Cthulhu, it uses female pronouns for the female characters in the examples. It's the blanket use of 'she' in the text referring to the player that I find jarring and ugly. The game books we published used 'they' and 'their' in place of 'he' and 'his'. It's grammatically incorrect, as Caryn said, but it was a common decision and avoided any unintentional sexism. Changing all pronouns to their feminine versions is just a thoughtless sweep over to what, on the surface, looks like a less sexist game. But it isn't if you haven't applied the same criteria to all your examples, NPCs and scenarios. I agree with you about male gamers being juvenile, sexist assholes. For years, role-playing alienated female players by virtue of its target audience being teenage boys, and the hobby pandering to that by making sure that a half-naked woman riding a dragon was on the cover of every second product released. I asked a female magazine editor about it, and her quote was, "I love them, they sell magazines." |
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#86 Your Friend While true, I think the usage on this point may increase to the point where it becomes generally accepted. I've been thinking that myself, which would take some getting used to, but ultimately would solve the whole he/she issue satisfactorily. SNIKT!
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I'd be ok with it. Personally it doesn't bother me to see people using 'she'/'her', but in the end it is just as stupid as using 'he'/'him' if the usage is meant to be generic. I think it is more likely we'll see 'they'/'them' take over rather than have new words invented specifically for this purpose. "Take Two needs to STFU imo." - G30rg3 Br0uzz4rd
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There needs to be a genderless pronoun, now that we live a in a brave new world where women aren't property. All the attempts to create a new word from scrath have failed worse than Esperanto, and people are using "they" already. Personally, I think we should just use the genderless noun, "Pat". |
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The default gender is male for stupid reasons. This is kind of a silly argument, if the default gender was female it'd be for the same stupid reasons. Since there is no genderless pronoun in the english language one has to be arbitrarily chosen, that happened to be male. There's no right or wrong here, that's why shaking your fist and complaning about it is pretty silly, since it isn't any more correct to use the female pronoun for genderless nouns. Historically, and now gramatically, male pronouns are used for genderless nouns, that's the rule, I think it's the people who take issue with this that have the problem. If people want to fix this the answer is to come up with a legitimate genderless pronoun for the english language, simply replacing all the 'he' for 'she' doesn't fix the problem it just changes the bias. I kid cause I care.
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Also, two wrongs don't make a right. |
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Why the hell can't you nerds just refer to the player as "the player"? Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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Once the player has completed the player's turn, the player may not check the player's inventory or change the player's equipped weapon. |
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That's what I do if I'm writing a design doc - saves any kind of gender confusion. You can't derail this train of idiocy, Shadarr. Not even with a big fat cow of logic on the tracks. - Bailey
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Shadarr Excellent. Implement that immediately. Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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And if there happens to be more than one player, we'll refer to them as the second and third party of the player, who will henceforth be referred to as "the other player" and "the player whose smell is most overwhelming". Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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Once the player has completed the player's turn, the player may not check the player's inventory or change the player's equipped weapon. "Once the player has completed their turn, they may not check their inventory or change their equipped weapon." "Once the player has completed her turn, she may not check her inventory or change her equipped weapon." Two are genderless. One of those is bad English, my preferred one, but I think it's an acceptable change of rules. I'll put my money where my mouth is as well. This is the freeware text of our game system, written in 1994. The pronoun 'his' only exists in the examples referring to a male character. If it exists in the body text, it gets a 'or her' appended. The rest of the time it's 'their', or we explicitly state player or character. It was worth jumping through the occasional linguistic hoop to do this, rather than just use 'he' or 'she'. |
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The horror games like Vampire and Call of Cthulhu do have a larger female audience, but I'd be stunned if it even comes close to 10% of the player base. I'd be absolutely floored if it was that low. I know so many middle aged women who play their faggy 17 year old sexpot vampire boytoys religiously. I guess it depends on if you count people who buy the books to play online. "Whore!" she shrieked. "Kingslayer's whore! Brotherfucker!" Her dead child dropped from her arms like a sack of flour as she pointed at Cersei. "Brotherfucker brotherfucker brotherfucker."
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Dammit Foody, your examples always center around extreme niche slashfic writers! Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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#99 mrbloo "Once the player has completed their turn, they may not check their inventory or change their equipped weapon." This is easily rewritten to be grammatically correct: "Once players have completed their turn, they may not check their inventory or change their equipped weapon." This is the way I prefer to do it - removes the grammatical errors as well as the whole gender swamp. SNIKT!
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My ex roomate used to manage a comic book store that also did heavy business in tabletop roleplaying games. The White Wolf stuff definitely ran higher than 10 percent women, something closer to 40 percent. Vast numbers of Anne Rice fans, and South Street gothgirls ate that stuff up. |
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foodbunny, [quote[I'd be absolutely floored if it was that low. I know so many middle aged women who play their faggy 17 year old sexpot vampire boytoys religiously. I guess it depends on if you count people who buy the books to play online. Actually, I stand corrected. According to this 1999 study, the figure is around 20%, the same as computer gaming. In my personal experience, that seems a little high, but there you go. |
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generally like "pagan" type folks,... Which form of paganism is that? Pagan originally meant anything that wasn't 'Christian,' though academically it now refers to the containing philosophy that tolerates multiple beliefs and interactions between different beliefs. It should be noted that we're less intellectually free in some respects than we were during the so-called dark ages. However, those that get under my skin are the ones who drone on and on about magic by spelling it magick or majick and probably a million other alternative spellings. Magic is the term used for conjuring magic, and magick (along with its variations) is used to refer to occult magic. It's a useful distinction, especially when searching the web for material. My point, though, is we have the words now. Why do we have to change them? Why is "converse" being replaced with "conversate" just because it was in a rap song or fifty? Because the powers that be have deemed it cool that anyone with anything to say is important, regardless of its intellectual or creative merit. The traditional gatekeepers have been usurped because critical thought gets in the way of people consuming and producing more crap. We've swapped one prison for another. Have a nice day. "Save the attitude for someone who cares." - Judge Dredd
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/urk |
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The traditional gatekeepers have been usurped because critical thought gets in the way of people consuming and producing more crap. Like the Judge Dredd game? "Take Two needs to STFU imo." - G30rg3 Br0uzz4rd
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Articles in legal journals and law textbooks are almost universally written to be gender neutral. The genders of half the the pronouns are masculine and the other half are feminine. Interestingly the demographic makeup of the student body at most law schools is slightly more female than male. It wasn't always that way. And many of the women don't end up working in the legal field (or can't get hired), so the profession is far from being an example of gender equality. Anyway here is an interesting manual on Gender Neutral Communication for lawyers. But you'll notice that they don't mention neuters, so if you are a neuter you are out of luck. |
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Warren is right. Aquaman(girl)(it)? is pretty damn hot. |
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the figure is around 20%, the same as computer gaming Time to adjust your perceptions Sparky, 43% of PC gamers are female. |
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Sims and Popcap game enthusiasts don't count. Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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Caryn, This is easily rewritten to be grammatically correct: "Once players have completed their turn, they may not check their inventory or change their equipped weapon." Yeah, when you're committed to writing gender-neutral text, plurals are your friend. Reading over our stuff, for probably the first time in five years, you can see that it's easily possible to write gender-free if you make the effort. I can also see that we didn't have a fucking clue how to use apostrophes. |
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But you'll notice that they don't mention neuters, so if you are a neuter you are out of luck. I'd say that equalling it out on both sides would kind of make it neutral to begin with...thus it would be better suited to neuters than anyone else. Otherwise we need more pronouns...I suggest "nim" and "nims" PANZERFAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUST
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Apostrophes are your friend. Use them wherever and whenever you like. PANZERFAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUST
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#111 Bailey Sims and Popcap game enthusiasts don't count. They do when the checks are rolling in. SNIKT!
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Shadarr, Time to adjust your perceptions Sparky, 43% of PC gamers are female. Heh, 4 years of Sim games will skew that average. Now find me a few more studies that back that up :) |
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Heh, 4 years of Sim games will skew that average. Now find me a few more studies that back that up :) Another problem with our nomenclature...we need to actually stop referring to expansion packs as games. I suggest calling them "moneys." That way we simplify the whole thing. PANZERFAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUST
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Caryn They do when the checks are rolling in. Are we approaching this from the perspective of an accountant or a gamer? Scotch makes you good at a lot of things, like yelling at your wife, but it’s terrible for hand-eye coordination.
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You don't get checks from software companies when you play their games? PANZERFAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUST
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Having read through the 3.5 D&D Player Handbook recently and not noticing that 'she' was used as the default, wtf does it matter? I did notice she/her was used more, thought that was nifty and went on with my reading. It affects nothing to me to have it she/her for in a D&D book. It doesn't make me feel like they aren't writing it for me, it doesn't make me think of anything at all. I noticed when I read the Vampire book, but I didn't care then either. Anyone who has a problem with this needs to grow up a little. IMHO, of course. As for the Vampire and D&D percentages of female players... I've found that 20% to be right on. It's around that in our group, sometimes more sometimes less as players come and go. It was at 50% for awhile. Does it matter? I don't think so. I think 0% would suck, as having a woman in the group always changes the dynamic, even if she is playing a male character. Which is good for the group. Vampire roleplayers are almost always weirder than D&D players...and that's saying something.
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Yes, but you're different Matt :) |
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