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Not-So-Intellectual Property
July 1st 2000, 05:40 CEST by andy Let's hope the Apogee boys and girls are sitting comfortably, because here's a little something to stir things up... THQ and Heavy Iron Studios have unveiled the new web site for their forthcoming game based on the Evil Dead movies. The title of the game, and also the web site, is: "Evil Dead : Hail To The King" "Hail To The King" is a phrase used in the Evil Dead movies, but later adopted in the Duke Nukem games by Apogee's eponymous hero. Some people have commented that it was a teensy bit naughty of Apogee to take a line from a film and then claim it as their own -- even going so far as to register it as their own trademark, the cheeky scamps. But those people can stop worrying, because it turns out that Apogee hasn't been entirely honest with us... You see, despite what they claim in their intellectual property license, Apogee doesn't own the "Hail To The King" trademark. THQ applied for it in early February, several months before Apogee claimed ownership. There's no direct hyperlink at the moment because the application is still pending, but you can see for yourself that Apogee doesn't own it by going to this page, clicking the Free Form Search link, and then entering "hail to the king" in the search box, complete with quotes. (Note: If you use a download manager such as GetRight, you'll need to disable it for the search to work.) Update: It turns out that Apogee's IP license, published in May this year, makes a few other false trademark claims... For a start, there's no such trademark as "General Phil Graves". There's boring old "Phil Graves" (#75162460) but he ain't no General, and all three registered uses (comics, computer games and arcade games) were abandoned in August 1997. According to the trademark office, this trademark is now "dead". The "Lo Wang" trademark (#75272379) is dead too, with all four registered uses (computer games, comics, hand-held games and arcade games) having been abandoned in October 1999. And finally, it's a bit sneaky of Apogee to claim ownership of "Zero Hour". Not only was their registration (#75603132) abandoned in January this year, but the trademark is currently registered by Warner Bros (#1874656) and applies to comics. All of the informtation in this update can be verified at the United States Patent and Trademark Office web site. |
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After which Andy would be revving up the backhoe to tear Scott a new asshole for not giving *enough* information. We've seen it already. That is why that wouldn't work. Desiato |
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http://www.ggmark.com/protect.html Please read this page (Andy and others), it will help you to understand why Apogee can claim "Hail to the King" as a trademark even if it's not registered. The important part of the page is this bit though: <quote>Unregistered marks are protected at "common law" in the U.S. -- marks need not be registered to be recognized and enforced. Nonetheless, marks registered with the PTO have advantages over unregistered marks. These advantages, which inure to the registered trademark owner, include: The ability to bring actions for trademark infringement in federal courts, as well as state courts; Eligibility for up to treble damages in a successful trademark infringement action; A presumption that the registered mark is valid; A presumption that the owner of the registration owns the registered mark; A presumption that the registrant has exclusive rights to use the mark in commerce; A presumption that the registered mark is not confusingly similar to other registered marks; The ability to file applications for registration in other countries, based upon the U.S. registration; The ability to prevent the importation of goods bearing infringing marks, by recording the registration with United States Customs.</quote> You don't have to have a trademark registered to use it, claim it, or defend it. It will however make it a lot easier for you to defend if you have it registered. There is a lot more information on that page that would be useful to you to read so you can better understand the situation and it took a whopping 10 minutes for me to find the information. Again, I think that THQ beat Apogee to the punch on trying to register "Hail to the King". Apogee merely needs to challenge it to gain control of the register of the trademark. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>#96</b> "Desiato" wrote <QUOTE>After which Andy would be revving up the backhoe to tear Scott a new asshole for not giving *enough* information. We've seen it already. That is why that wouldn't work. </QUOTE> True, but then Andy would be the only one looking like an asshole. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#94</b>, Charlie Wiederhold: <QUOTE> THQ got the application in first. </QUOTE> Yes. This means that Apogee has not applied for the trademark, and Scott's comment in post #80 was untruthful. (He said Apogee has applied for it.) |
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This is really sad. Scott explains that based on use and ads and t-shirts.. that Apogee has the rights to certain phrases. Now myself and Another person have corraborated that WE both own t-shirts that were made well before Duke3d was released that have these self-same phrases on them. Proving that The Movie and its merchandising was first. Scott.. I think your listening to your lawyers way too much. I bet they are feeding your mind with thoughts of we register these lines and we are guaranteed money from this.. blah blah... "Scott, Its a sure thing. I will win this case and all those lines will be under Apogee!" Fact. These lines were in a script copyrighted before AOD was released.. they were used in several 2 Movies. ED 2 and AOD. These both came out substantially before DNF.. Giving the company who developed The PRIOR CONSENT and ownership. Your posting that as fans your going to be magmanimous and allow THQ to right to the phrases because... Your fans of the series? Um.. Please.. Give me a break. The game is based on a series of movies that came well before Duke3d. This popular series of movies. Also had t-shirts printed up with many of these phrases on them. The fact is you don't own these lines. Never have.. and it looks seriously like you never will. You could be a heartless bunch of bastards and sue THQ and hope that your high-powered lawyers fees would scare THQ into settling and in doing so eating into the potential profits of the new game. Only problem.. is that THQ is a little bit bigger than your company..... and has deeper pockets. That they beat you to the registering of that line.. is also VERY VERY important. They were first.. you were not. Not to mention the public outcry against your company if this came to light would damage 3drealms reputation. As mentioned before.. there are many Evil Dead Fans... and all it would take is a couple of interviews showing those lines being uttered in the movie.. a couple of shots of t-shirts with the lines printed on them.. and the Public would point at 3drealms and say.. God what a bunch of jerks. Parodying lines from other forms of entertainment... does not automatically mean.. (a movie,Book,Play,TV show) that you now own those lines. That's why parodying is allowed.. its totally free. Try and steel some of the lines from Steinfield use them.. and then try and register them as your own... and watch how fast you would get sewed... You wouldn't be able to afford it. My suggestion.. IF your as creative as you say you are.. CREATE ALL NEW ORIGINAL LINES... OR is it that hard for the great 3drealms to be able to handle that? Or do you need some writers to steal from? |
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<quote>Yes. This means that Apogee has not applied for the trademark, and Scott's comment in post #80 was untruthful. (He said Apogee has applied for it.)</quote> No, it means they applied for it first. I'm sure Apogee put in the applications for their trademarks at the same time for "Come Get Some" and "Hail to the King", "Come Get Some" came through... "Hail to the King" got stopped because somebody else already had an application in for it. It's up to Apogee to then challenge it and claim proper right to the register. Charlie Wiederhold |
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Reuben, please stop posting about this topic before you sprain your brain, and mine. |
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<b>#97</b>, Charlie Wiederhold: I'll go and look at the page you mentioned but don't expect me to get into a debate about whether Apogee or THQ has a rightful claim to the trademark. That is a matter for the two companies and their lawyers. |
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<quote>I'll go and look at the page you mentioned but don't expect me to get into a debate about whether Apogee or THQ has a rightful claim to the trademark.</quote> In order for any debate on this topic to work you have to operate under the assumption that Apogee has proper right to the trademark of "Hail to the King" for video games and similar properties. - You don't know if Apogee has or has not applied for the trademark, you only know that THQ is the current listed applicant. - You stated that Apogee falsly claims certain trademarks on their IP license that they have no right to claim just because they aren't currently registered (which goes against how trademarks function). - You state that Apogee does not own the trademark. If you mean that they don't have it currently registered, then you are correct. However registration does not imply ownership. Even registered trademarks are contestable for the first five years. You entered a debate on whether Apogee has a rightful claim to the trademark or not the moment you accused them of falsly claiming ownership. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>#101</b>, Charlie Wiederhold: <QUOTE> <quote>Yes. This means that Apogee has not applied for the trademark, and Scott's comment in post #80 was untruthful. (He said Apogee has applied for it.)</quote> No, it means they applied for it first. I'm sure Apogee put in the applications for their trademarks at the same time for "Come Get Some" and "Hail to the King", "Come Get Some" came through... "Hail to the King" got stopped because somebody else already had an application in for it. It's up to Apogee to then challenge it and claim proper right to the register. </QUOTE> Apogee's "Come Get Some" application was filed on the 18th of January. THQ's "Hail To The King" application was filed on the 3rd of February. If Apogee had filed for "Hail To The King" at the same time as "Come Get Some" then surely their application would now be on the database and THQ's wouldn't? |
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<b>#101</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote... <QUOTE> No, it means they applied for it first. I'm sure Apogee put in the applications for their trademarks at the same time for "Come Get Some" and "Hail to the King", "Come Get Some" came through... "Hail to the King" got stopped because somebody else already had an application in for it. It's up to Apogee to then challenge it and claim proper right to the register. Charlie Wiederhold </QUOTE> Come Get some was applied for in January, Hail to the King was applied for in Febuary by THQ. Had they been done at the same time THQ's application would have been held up if "get some" and "hail" where applied for at the same time. O and if Reuben's comments about the T-shirts are ture the movie creaters would have prior use in commerce (THQ could then say they bought the right to use the line from them, and thus had the right to register a trademark on a game as a tie in product), again making it a stick situation. My perdiction would be that USPTO would just say nobody had the right to register, and since scott has said they have no intention of taking them to cort over it (the only way to detemon right to use with no registration), that would remain unsoved untill some one pushed it. I'd like to keep my eye on this one. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Apogee's "Come Get Some" application was filed on the 18th of January.</quote> My confusion on that point. I read the first "Come Get Some" application which stated a date of "Feb. 22nd" and almost all of the other listed trademarks in the license agreemnt which fall near the end of February, and applied it to the other "Come Get Some" as well. That's all the speculation I can offer, it's up to Scott at this point. "Come Get Some" and "Hail to the King" fall under the exact same problems/issues, so one without the other doesn't really matter. Charlie Wiederhold |
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kinda interesting tidbit from the <a href="http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/basic_facts.html">USPTO</a> <QUOTE> There are two related but distinct types of rights in a mark: the right to register and the right to use. Generally, the first party who either uses a mark in commerce or files an application in the PTO has the ultimate right to register that mark. The PTO's authority is limited to determining the right to register. The right to use a mark can be more complicated to determine. This is particularly true when two parties have begun use of the same or similar marks without knowledge of one another and neither has a federal registration. Only a court can render a decision about the right to use, such as issuing an injunction or awarding damages for infringement. It should be noted that a federal registration can provide significant advantages to a party involved in a court proceeding. The PTO cannot provide advice concerning rights in a mark. Only a private attorney can provide such advice.</QUOTE><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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ooh, know what i just remembered theres a evil dead game for c64 that uses horrible, horrible c64 synthisized speech (near impossible mission style), and i could of sworn he said come get some, but I know he said hail to the king. gonna go look for it on lemon64 and some other c64 emu sites. this might throw a wrench into your trademarks woadie. |
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http://www.lemon64.com/reviews/evil_dead.html :O |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this company that is making the ED game have a right to sue Scott and/or 3DR now because they have slandered their game? "I hear it's a shit game anyways..." (paraphrased). To quote (Scott I think) from earlier "That it potentially damages their business" from this game? |
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#111, I think some of the 3DR guys have been childish but comon, don't get into that. Everyone has a right to their opinion, or maybe everyone should just sue everyone when their feelings get hurt. |
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Even if Scott "hears" that ED is a shit game I hear that DNF is just a figment of my imagination that happened when I saw a Daikatana screenshot very, very, late at night and misread the caption. For somebody who's company hasn't come out a decent game in five years, Scott sure talks a lot of shit. |
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No, with Charlie and Greenmarine onboard, I'm sure they'll make a great game. I just don't like this caustic attitude... How can he bash id for Christ's sake? They make ENGINES and 3dr just licenses! |
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superion: "horrible, horrible c64 synthisized speech (near impossible mission style)" this is the blasphemy police.. keep your hands where i can see them and step out of the vehicle.. next thing, you'll be saying "bad dudes" and "blades of steel" for NES had bad synthesized speech. "anuver vijitor? shshtay awhile! shshshshtay forEVVAH!" |
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<b>#114</b> "MCorleone" wrote... <QUOTE>How can he bash id for Christ's sake? They make ENGINES and 3dr just licenses! </QUOTE> I guess I missed it, but who was bashing ID? anyways, having an existing engine allows the developers to create a richer game (IMO)... take a look at Half-Life compared to Quake/Quake2, from which HL takes its' engine (with some tweakage)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Charlie wrote: "'Hail to the King' in the manner it is used by Apogee is Apogee's trademark, registered or not. Just because THQ has applied for the trademark does not mean they own it or have the right to use it. There are quite a few trademarks that people use/own but aren't registered. I could go apply for them and then the proper owners would have the standard amount of time to challenge it (and they would win). " Dang, Charlie, have you been sneaking in to my office and reading my IP law books? ;-) What you said is a great paraphrase of what one of our attoneys said of this matter. Oh, and to Hulka, I do not understand your bold prediction...I never said anywhere that I was gonna stop posting here. I'm having a lot of fun watching the train wreck that is Andy, and how many ways he can try to circumvent the facts that work against his claims. Seriously, though, I do not have the time to respond to everyone, so I end up leaving a lot of stuff festering, but that's the way it goes. Let God sort 'em out. Scott Scott |
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Take into account the hardware advancements in the years between Quake and HL... If Carmack could have done the stuff in HL at the time of Quake, he would have. |
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<b>#116</b> "Darren" wrote... <QUOTE>I guess I missed it, but who was bashing ID? anyways, having an existing engine allows the developers to create a richer game (IMO)... take a look at Half-Life compared to Quake/Quake2, from which HL takes its' engine (with some tweakage)</QUOTE> In once thread scott came down on id for releasing another Doom game.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Yeah, he said something like "They're remaking Doom for the fifth time." - Meaning that he regards the Q's as Doom clones... |
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Andy: "Yes. This means that Apogee has not applied for the trademark, and Scott's comment in post #80 was untruthful. (He said Apogee has applied for it.)" As much as I hate to respond to you, or answer any of your never ending follow-up questions, I will put an end to this one... We have in fact applied for the Hail to the king trademark. I have no idea why it's not appearing on the gov's database, but I'm not at all surprised. Perhaps it's because THQ applied first, and so not Apogee's attorneys are having to prove prior use -- something that Charlie was able to deduce, but then Charlie is a very smart guy. Oh, and Charlie, I think our company trip to DisneyWorld and Universal Studio after DNF's release will make up for the 10 to 20 lost sales caused by George and myself having a big mouth on PC. ;-) Scott |
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<b>#119</b> "None-1a" wrote... <QUOTE> In once thread scott came down on id for releasing another Doom game.</QUOTE> hmm... well, I guess I can understand that. Lets see.. doom, doom2, ultimate doom, final doom, win95 doom, tnt, plutonian. and that's not counting the quake series as clones (which I don't count them as clones). Plus, I might even throw in Heretic and to some extent Hexen. I'm not saying I'm not looking forward to Doom(version whatever), just that I can see Scott's point :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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...or the company-paid trips to strip-clubs for "research"... "Her hips aren't gyrating quite right. Baby, can you do that again... slowly?" |
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RubenR: "This is really sad. Scott explains that based on use and ads and t-shirts.. that Apogee has the rights to certain phrases. Now myself and Another person have corraborated that WE both own t-shirts that were made well before Duke3d was released that have these self-same phrases on them. " Hey, if you're right, then THQ or whomever just needs to prove it, and that will prevent us from registering the phrase, simple as that. I'll guess over the next 6-8 months we'll find out. Scott |
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Darren: In the immortal words of Pink Floyd's "Drool on you Crazy Fanboy" "Drooool on, you craaaaaaaazy fAaaaaannboy..." |
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<QUOTE> "Drooool on, you craaaaaaaazy fAaaaaannboy..." </QUOTE> Hey, I'm a fan of whatever's good :) bring on DNF sometime soon scott! duke3d was great too, and I'm looking forward to that glDuke someone is working on<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#118</b> "MCorleone" wrote... <QUOTE> Take into account the hardware advancements in the years between Quake and HL... If Carmack could have done the stuff in HL at the time of Quake, he would have. </QUOTE> I'm not talking visuals (hardware advancements) here, pure gameplay/replay quality. quake1 was replayable (for me), quake2 was a once thru deal and then deathmatch after that.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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in response to the last bit of #117.. http://www.planetcrap.com/stories/76/ check comment #161 |
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Replay quality? HL? I thought that after you saw all of the scripting once that it lost it's value. Now Deus Ex is going to have AMAZING replay value. I'm not even done it once and I'm thinking of things to do different the next time. And I'm not getting personal, here, Darren, but Plutonium and another you mentioned were actually expansions to Duke. As were the Doom's that you listed for Doom itself. There's nothing wrong with expansions. And to say that Hexen was a Doom clone based on engine alone is like saying that Duke was a "Ken's Labyrinth" clone. |
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"In once thread scott came down on id for releasing another Doom game." Yes, I said that they've been making DOOM games all along. ;-) I do not think the interviewer included my little wink, though, so it made it look like I was being serious and mean. And in any case, that is really all they do from a gameplay standpoint, with the exception of QA3, which really isn't much of an exception. Id reached greatness by being technically revolutionary, not by developing content rich games. However, I do believe that the first DOOM is perhaps the greatest game ever, because it was the perfect balance between technical innovation and raw but highly polished gameplay. That's still their crowning work by a long shot. Since then, it's all be more evolutionary than revolutionary, and their somewhat stagnant gameplay has given other FPS developers a big opportunity to find a large, eager audience, with high content games like Duke Nukem 3D and Half-Life. I have interviews of Carmack in my files in which he admits that they do not make content oriented games, so I'm not saying anything here that should surprise anyone. Well, except Andy perhaps. Scott |
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<b>#130</b> "Scott Miller, 3D Realms" wrote... <QUOTE>I have interviews of Carmack in my files in which he admits that they do not make content oriented games, so I'm not saying anything here that should surprise anyone. Well, except Andy perhaps. </QUOTE> Now that's one I think we can all belive, Carmack is an engine guy (id could do some good to higher some better deisgners to back him up). Anyone know if he ever got that idea about a gameboy color port of commander keen off the ground (I was showing DukeII and a few keen demos ot my 6 year old borther a week ago and he got a real kick out of em, it'd be nice to have a version of eather one that he could play with out the problems related to playing older games on a new PC).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#129</b> "MCorleone" wrote... <QUOTE> Replay quality? HL? I thought that after you saw all of the scripting once that it lost it's value. </quote> your opinion :) <quote>Now Deus Ex....</quote> haven't tried it <quote>And I'm not getting personal, here, Darren, but Plutonium and another you mentioned were actually expansions to Duke. </quote> you mean doom? I know Duke has a the plutonium whatever, but there was/is a tnt wad file and a plutonium wad file for doom (or was it doom2?).. yes, those were exp packs, but I just added them to emphasize the massive amounts of doom we've been fed over the years <quote>As were the Doom's that you listed for Doom itself. There's nothing wrong with expansions. </quote> doom2 was sold as a seperate game, albeit expansionesque (sp??) in quality.. doom95 was also sold seperately (I believe), kinda like a gold edition, if you will <quote>And to say that Hexen was a Doom clone based on engine alone is like saying that Duke was a "Ken's Labyrinth" clone.</quote> I said "to some extent" :) actually, it seems more like a user made remake of heretic perhaps to me.. kinda like the Evil Dead Total Conversion for Doom 2 (hey, kinda on topic, heh). That Ken's Labyrinth thing had me laughing... but, I know people can also so the same thing about duke too :) so, I'll drop it. the debate is stale anyways<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Oh man. Kenslab was awful. Yikes. Almost as bad as Psiclones... :) |
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<b>#133</b> "MCorleone" wrote... <QUOTE> Oh man. Kenslab was awful. Yikes. Almost as bad as Psiclones... :) </QUOTE> haha... now you can't forget Body Count!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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mmm Deus Ex mmmmm game of the year mmmm Warren Spector proves that not everything in ION is shit mmm anachronox is going to have to be special. mmmm donuts Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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*casts level 42 Field of WTF?? at Darkseid |
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counters with a shaolin movement of irrelevence Deus Ex, is quite simply, great ;) remember how in previous threads we agreed that multiple routes through things would be a good idea, being able to climb in a vent, blow the door open or find the key. Deus Ex does that, somewhat linear with freeform style, it really is a game you need to think logically in to win/survive it has niggles sure (like the way climbing ladders are done) but overall, Deus Ex makes up for teh shameful Dominion and Daikatana. btw a friend of mine from the clan has a new website up, anyone who remembers Your Sinclair may remember Andy Hutchinson, aka Dr_D in my clan. Its intended to be conscise neat reviews of hardware and games and various other things. Its Dr_D's site and I just fire the odd article off to him (5pghs or less). If youre tired of the anal long winded ness of Sharky or Anand or Toms Hardware, and just want to know how quick it runs q3, then, well, take a look. for now its at www.catherine.easynet.co.uk. But itll crop up at www.pcinformer.co.uk whenver the dns goes live. Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Niggles? I think this is the best ladder implementation I've ever had the pleasure of playing! DON'T EVER LET GREASELS OUT! |
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#117 - Scott Miller said "Oh, and to Hulka, I do not understand your bold prediction..." ================================================ Scott, I could have sworn I read that you were leaving PC, so I searched through all the archived forums and couldn't find it. All I found was George saying he would be gone until Andy left. My mistake, my bold prediction is now bullshit. Sorry to waste the time of all you Hulka prediction fans! Now bake me a Duke. |
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<b>#139</b> "Sgt Hulka" wrote... <QUOTE> #117 - Scott Miller said "Oh, and to Hulka, I do not understand your bold prediction..." ================================================ Scott, I could have sworn I read that you were leaving PC, so I searched through all the archived forums and couldn't find it. All I found was George saying he would be gone until Andy left. My mistake, my bold prediction is now bullshit. Sorry to waste the time of all you Hulka prediction fans! Now bake me a Duke. </QUOTE> Check out #128 of this thread, Hulka.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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hulka: #117 - Scott Miller said "Oh, and to Hulka, I do not understand your bold prediction..." sheesh, i should make my posts more conspicuous.. scott miller proclaimed that he was vamoose in this thread: http://www.planetcrap.com/stories/76/ at comment #161.. |
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prior art. |
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<b>#141</b> "dukope" allowed this bilge to spill out of his keyboard <QUOTE> hulka: #117 - Scott Miller said "Oh, and to Hulka, I do not understand your bold prediction..." sheesh, i should make my posts more conspicuous.. scott miller proclaimed that he was vamoose in this thread: http://www.planetcrap.com/stories/76/ at comment #161.. </QUOTE> What he actually said was that he would stop responding to Andy. He didn't say he was abandoning the 'Crap. Now he is posting indirect attacks. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Well its nice to see that Scott admitted that quite possibly (most Likely really) that with t-shirts available for ED 2 and AOD that Apogees case could easily be a loss. I wonder what movies DukenukemForever will rip-off of. And will Apogee try and get the rights to those phrases? Let me guess any Shaft Lines you might want to use? |
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Who's the weak limp dick that needs to pay to get a chick? Duke! Damn right. What kind of man would dare to wear ladies underwear? Duke! Can you dig it? Who's the cat that will pussy out when bad reviews are about? Duke! Right on. They say this Duke uses rip-off lines... -Shut yo mouth! But I'm talkin' about Duke... -And Scott don't dig it He's a complicated man, and no one understands that it's a scam -Duke Nukem Hulka's much better at these than I am. Here's the <a href="http://members.aol.com/PizarroD/shaft/quotes1.txt">original lyrics</a> for anyone else that has nothing better to do on a Sunday night. And remember... <i>It's Duke's dooty, to molest your booty...</i> |
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