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Have Game Retailers Stolen the Consumer's Voice?
May 23rd 2003, 21:16 CEST by Charles I went to Electronics Boutique today with the intention of buying Enter the Matrix. However, due to the mixed opinions I've been hearing from people around the crap (and elsewhere), I had reservations. So, before committing to a purchase, I inquired if they still accepted returns on opened games. Since EB has traditionally accepted returns even when other retailers did not, I was somewhat surprised to be told that they in fact, did not accept returns on opened games anymore. Now honestly, I wasn't that surprised. I'd heard through the grapevine that EB was cancelling this policy, which is why I made sure to ask first. But knowing that they actually did cancel it irked me. I don't like having that power taken away from me. In fact, despite that I can't remember ever actually returning a game I'd purchased, it downright angered me. Now, I'm not sure whether it's just a retailers being stupid thing, or if publishers have managed to make it difficult for the retailers to return merchandise. Normally in a retail channel, it's just a matter of returning the merchandise to the distributor, and waiting for a replacement. Usually in those cases, the maker of the item incurs the cost of the return. In games, the publisher just takes that cost out of the developer's cut, so that shitty games that end up with lots of returns directly cut in to the money the developer makes. Seems like a good system to me, developer makes shitty game, developer fucks themselves over. A crappy enough game would cut in to the money the publisher makes too. So it seems to me the blocking of returns is just a way for publishers and developers to release shit games with impunity. After all, there is absolutely nothing a consumer can do after they've purchased the game; they are stuck with whatever crap was packed in the box. It's no wonder publishers can continue to pump out junk games. If they put a small enough amount of money in to the development, even the random buys a title gets through a decent marketing campaign should be enough for them to make some amount of money. It's inconsequential if the game works properly or not. Now, I can understand the rationale behind not allowing returns of PC games. After all, with PC games, it's just a matter of installing the game, downloading the crack, and voila, you have the game and can return the original to the store. Console games, however, are a far different story. To do something like that with a console game requires a modded console, and most likely a dvd burner of some sort. Gamecube games, you can't even do that. GBA games, you'd need a flash linker. In most of these cases, the people who've already found themselves the means to pirate games will most likely just get it off the net without even bothering with a trip to the store. So is piracy really the issue? It's the most commonly quoted reason, but I don't really think it's the issue. Some people say it's because gamers will buy the game, play it, beat it, return it. I suppose that could be an issue. But it's easily handled. With a short enough grace time, and maybe a small restocking fee, it becomes easier for someone to go rent the game, play it, then return it. It also requires much less cash up front, and much less hassle. Also, it wouldn't be hard for the store to require your personal info when you want your money back (or even in store credit) to just make sure that you don't do it with every game you buy. Make it an inter-store database, and you cut out their ability to just run to a different EB to do it. But again, is this really that much of an issue? How many games can be completed in that time? How many people who really want to avoid buying a game, will buy it then go so much out of their way to return it, when there are plenty of other ways to avoid paying for it? It just seems to me that the whole charade of not allowing returns is done just so that the consumer is stuck with what they buy. It seems like a knee-jerk reaction to the output of an industry that tends to be subpar as often as not. And because of this, it allows the game industry to continue to produce junk, since there is no real action that a consumer can take to show that they don't like getting suckered in to buying shit. You can argue buyer beware, and say that the consumer's power is in not purchasing it to begin with. But in that case, they are losing sales from people who just don't want to be burned. As I stated to begin with, I want to buy Enter the Matrix. I'd buy it, I'd play it, and I'd most likely not return it, even if I had the ability. But considering that reviews of the game go out of their way to point out all the bugs and crashes, it's just a risk I'm not willing to take. So am I just spazzing? Or should we still be allowed to return games? |
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Topic: Have Game Retailers Stolen the Consumer's Voice?
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Bloo - In recent times, say, after the introduction of XP, what games have failed to run at all on your PC? Not including demos. To be honest, I've not bought a game in this time period that wouldn't run - and this may well be why I don't empathise with your position. It has been a good long while since one blue-screened my computer regularly enough that the game was unplayable. |
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In recent times, say, after the introduction of XP, what games have failed to run at all on your PC? Not including demos. Mechwarrior 4, Enter the Matrix, NHL 2003, Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2, Half-Life (for some reason it wont load up). That's all I can think of in recent memory. oh my god, are you giving me cancer? stop it! stopitstopitstopit!
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Settlers 4. Both the full game and the demo didn't work. <MuadDib> To a certain degree I am, come on its the internet, I can be whatever I want <Thalamasa> Except, apparently, a person of intellect
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Have either of you gentleman considered giving Nocturne a try? I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
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Interesting EB/Game in the UK have 'reward' cards that you load points on when you buy a game. This very card has the necessary data to see what you bought when and if it was returned or not. The Dixons group also have a similar Point of Sales system that tracks returns against a customer along with credit checking and inventory. So if the ass backwards, when it comes to consumer systems, UK can have a computerised system in place that can track what you bought and put up warning flags when you return too many things. Why the fuck cant the US, where in an awful lot of stores they ask for your name/address to sell you just about anything, cant they flag against a certain name popping up repeatedly. Its -not- too much to ask for, its -not- too hard to do, its fuckwittery NOT to have that kind of system protecting your stock lines. I mean c'mon, if you bought the game at Place X then Place X is where youre going to return it to, and Place X will know who you are, because of the hoops you go through buying the product. Sure little Jimmy McJimmy who saves up 145 quarters in a jar isnt as easily traced on the system as Mr Flash MacVisa, but whos more likely to be trying to buy/burn/return? Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Marsh, I'm still running 2000, not XP, but yeah, Splinter Cell bluescreens if I let the intro movie run to the end. It didn't get returned, because I can just quit the movie at any point to get into the game. I haven't bought many games in the last year because I haven't been working, I think SOF2 was the only one before that, and it was fairly unplayable on my system. I gave it to my kid brother rather than return it. When I upgrade, I'll give it another go. The Medieval Total War problem was a common one and solved by turning down the sound acceleration, so I only had two days of problems with that one, exacerbated by accidentally turning off the sound acceleration on mike input, instead of playback, and thinking the problem hadn't been fixed. Those are local machine problems that meant the software wasn't fit to be played. Maybe they're driver issues, maybe it's my SB Live and VIA chipset that meant that Swat3 didn't have any sound. I don't really care though; if I can't play it, the game goes back. Like I said before, I've only returned one game ever, but I think the right to return something that doesn't work is one that can't be taken away because of a few pirates. |
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that's a great .sig, squeaky. like a fox
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Mank, I agree. But god forbid if the retailer has to ask their employees to fill out a return/exchange slip, scan a membership card, or punch a few extra keys on the checkout machine....that'd be too much like...work..or something. Yeah, I thought it was a daft point that it would be too much work for them. They're paid by the hour, so keep 'em busy. I can understand if the shop is packed and there's a big queue, but I'd just get the shop manager to do it,they're usually not that busy :) Jeet, Have either of you gentleman considered giving Nocturne a try? Bought it, played it, upgraded to a GeForce to see it in 32bit, thought two levels were good (werewolves and mine-zombies) and the rest were awful. If the sequel gets good reviews, I'll buy it as well. I quite liked the two-gun horror motif and shooting zombies is always good for a luagh. It doesn't deserve your Mario-esque ravings though :) |
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#189 mrbloo Yeah, I thought it was a daft point that it would be too much work for them. They're paid by the hour, so keep 'em busy. I can understand if the shop is packed and there's a big queue, but I'd just get the shop manager to do it,they're usually not that busy :) The point is not that taking a return is necessarily too difficult (although it surely can be in some circumstances), but more to the point, the benefits gained do not outweigh the effort expended, on the average.Clearly things are different in your country. "You do not truly know someone until you fight them."
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Oooh http://perso.wanadoo.fr/etienne.aubert/sshock/sshock_rebirth.htm Fan made updates to System Shock 2, oooh puuurtyyy Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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jafd, The point is not that taking a return is necessarily too difficult (although it surely can be in some circumstances), but more to the point, the benefits gained do not outweigh the effort expended, on the average. Well, I would say that the benefits of getting my money back for a non-working game certainly outweigh the effort expended in bringing it back to the shop. As for the retailer, well, as I said at the start, fuck 'em. Ds, Fan made updates to System Shock 2, oooh puuurtyyy Goddamn, but that is one ass-ugly original model. |
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Squeaky: Who do you work for? That sounds like a Kroger-type store to me. No cake is complete without at least one ethnic slur.
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I work for London Drugs. A small western-canadian drug store chain that sells everything from toilet paper to computers. With a return policy that, according to jafd, will put us out of business and is too much work. What's Kroger? oh my god, are you giving me cancer? stop it! stopitstopitstopit!
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/me stabs everyone complaining about Simcity 4 The fact that Simcity 4 needs a powerful machine for smooth performance was well-documented in many pre-release reviews. That you either didn't investigate this before making your purchase, or that you assumed your machine was godlike and immune from the evils that plague lesser machines, makes it your mistake. I'm not sure if anyone but Mank actually returned the game, but that is the reason that no one takes returns any more: taking advantage of the return policy. And btw, I have a P3/1000 with a 64MB GF2 Ultra and Simcity 4 runs fine for me. Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say! |
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#195 BobJustBob And btw, I have a P3/1000 with a 64MB GF2 Ultra and Simcity 4 runs fine for me. Yeah, that's wonderful... Oh wait. People with much higher systems than yours have run into all kinds of performance problems... what, did you play for 5 minutes and think, "stupid bastards!". "There are two things I've observed about Warhammer during my trips to the comic shop. A) The players send off strong pheremonal signals to mark their territory and warn off rival M:TG alpha males....." - Bailey
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#194 Squeaky With a return policy that, according to jafd, will put us out of business and is too much work. Are you a specialty store that sells only software? Nope, didn't think so."You do not truly know someone until you fight them."
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I think the people with much higher systems are spoiled and are expecting it to run like an FPS. Also, I've played for many hours. Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say! |
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Oh heaven forbid someone expect a game to run smoothly on a machine twice as powerful as the recommended specs! Dooomo!
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How can I argue with a statement like that? Oh wait, I already did. Repetition sucks. Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say! |
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Oh heaven forbid someone expect a game to run smoothly on a machine twice as powerful as the recommended specs! Dooomo!
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I apologize to those of you who were expecting jewels on the Next Page. Dooomo!
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The fact that Simcity 4 needs a powerful machine for smooth performance was well-documented in many pre-release reviews. There was no review I read saying double the specs and you'll run fine. The reviews all mentioned you would need a fast machine to run smoothly. At the time SC4 came out I had a processor that was barely below what was even available. The fastest video card in production at that time and a gig of ram. I understand that six months after I purchase a new computer it might be out of date, but you seem to be saying my one month old machine wasn't good enough to run the game, I needed a machine that was being sold months in the future. I think the people with much higher systems are spoiled and are expecting it to run like an FPS. I expect it to run smoothly. That is all. a year ago when I had a two year old Gateway I didn't complain about framerates, stuttering or anything else. I realized that my machine didn't meet the requirements of recent games. If you have a brand new computer that more than doubles the required specs and it doesn't run smoothly, the developer lied to the consumer, and shipped a buggy product. They admitted this by releasing an update that partly fixed the problem. By patching the game they might as well have said they ripped the buyer off, and shipped a product that wasn't complete. I'm not spoiled, when I buy LOTR on DVD I expect it to run on my player. When I buy a game that has requirements on the box, I should be able to play the game that is promised on the box. He sets off my Claydar.
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Shit, that sentence in the middle that doesn't fit the rest of the rant belongs to bobjustbob. He sets off my Claydar.
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Some of us use capital letters, Nazi. Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say! |
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darkseid, that ss2 thing is love. |
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Anybody tried the Breed demo yet? I can't get it to work; says I'm missing d3d9.dll UNHAPPY FACE |
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You have DX9 installed, right? Dooomo!
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I just picked up Gothic, this had damn well better be a good game. |
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#195 Jesus Bob, the game wouldnt even run decently on a machine that well exceeded the stated recommended requirements. I dont know what part of that you just arent getting. And to infer that I'm somehow taking advantage of their return policy, has got to be a troll. Especially considering that I've only returned/exchanged 2 games ever. At last count I had well over 400 games in my collection, which includes games from back in my C-64 days. Let me spell out the problems I had so maybe you'll get an idea of my experience with this game. First off was the scrolling stutter that someone else mentioned above. Second, was the god awful 2 frames per second slideshow I experienced when ever attempting to zoom in/out. Third, was the fact that there is only one save slot...wtf were they thinking on that one? Fourth, was the apparent freeze of the game whenever workers decided to go on strikes..and the bigger your city got, the worse this became also. Sure, I could either pause the game or use the fast forward feature to speed things up since it takes for fucking ever to build cash reserves. And from the other posts here it's apparent that I'm not the only one who experienced many of the same problems. "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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Oh, I see now. So it wasn't the graphics problems; you took advantage of the return policy because you didn't like the game. Gotcha, my mistake. Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say! |
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I just picked up Gothic, this had damn well better be a good game. Gothic is a good reason why developers shouldn't try to be creative with their interface. Of course, this is only a minor technicality, as even when "properly elected" into office, a politician has as much chance of not having gotten there via corrupt means as Dubya has of spelling racecar backwards. --UncleJeet |
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SARS will have a higher infection rate in China than anywhere else in the world for a few simple reasons: A) It spreads via saliva, and the vast majority of the population are constantly hocking up lung-butter. B) They're naive folk, who believe cotton masks will protect them from the disease. C) The uselessness of cotton aside, when you see all the people packed onto the bus in a manner that makes sardines feel free and easy, rooting away in one nostril without a whit of self-awareness or embarrassment, and then grabbing a railing to steady themselves, you know exactly how the disease will spread in the coming months. I am a celebration of the english language.
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Is Gothic II out yet? I am a celebration of the english language.
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only if you are German |
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Anyway, I realize the reasons on both sides of this issue, but I just think the protection of the software developers allow them to keep pumping out trash without worry. If generally bad/buggy/inferior games got returned, it might cause the publisher to start weeding out what they put on shelves. But right now it's a cycle where they protect themselves from it, and so there is nothing to stop them from continuing to do so. Of course, this is only a minor technicality, as even when "properly elected" into office, a politician has as much chance of not having gotten there via corrupt means as Dubya has of spelling racecar backwards. --UncleJeet |
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Duality - Ung. Of course. I think I've installed at least the last 5 directx versions at the prompting of some PCer. You'd think my stupidity would have been eroded by now. |
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Incidentally, Breed sucked. :D |
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Breed singleplayer demo is a load of shit. Crummy movement, head bob that is nausea inducing, bad level design, so so graphics, stupid ai, prescient ai, when I hit fire I expect to fire and when I stop hitting the button I expect to stop firing - good luck in this demo. TRULY horrible voice acting, I mean even worse than Mechwarrior 4 Vengance was, physics that dont seem to relate to anything, a sniper scope thats just retarted (and the zoom suffers the same issue as the sometimes firing guns). People were waiting for this over Halo? oh dear Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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I liked the sniping in Breed. Everything else was boring. And the tutorial is awful. |
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The whole thing stinks of bad design. Even down to the UI; having to click through a gazillion* screens to get the controls config, so I could work out how to do what the tutorial demanded of me. I object to being subjected to 15 screenshots when I want to quit as well. I am no longer interested in your shit game! Stop forcing me to look at more of it! Obviously it's as buggy as a month-old corpse, but that's what you'd expect from a beta. I reckon the voice-acting is placeholder until they can get real actors in. Let's hope they can get some real AI in for the final version, too. What's so great about the sniping, Hugin? It seemed pretty much the same as any other game with sniping in. Zoom. Click. *aproximate figure |
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Sounds like it was a feature then that I chose to play the regular mission and the game promptly quit. We are OK in a misguided, sadist way.
We are OK in a disabled veteran's way. We are OK. |
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#211 BobJustBob Oh, I see now. So it wasn't the graphics problems; you took advantage of the return policy because you didn't like the game. Gotcha, my mistake. I had the same problems--the game ran like shit on a system well over the recommended specs. Are you trying to go for a troll award, or what? "And I'm saying without a relationship with God and those strong convictions HE put in me I wouldn't be a 42 year old who hasn't had sex with anyone today."
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I want a new game for the summer. Any suggestions? "YES!! You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games. Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
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I had the same problems--the game ran like shit on a system well over the recommended specs. Are you trying to go for a troll award, or what? Yeah, all those extra FPS would sure help you out a lot in the fast paced action of Sim City. Of course, this is only a minor technicality, as even when "properly elected" into office, a politician has as much chance of not having gotten there via corrupt means as Dubya has of spelling racecar backwards. --UncleJeet |
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#225 Charles Yeah, all those extra FPS would sure help you out a lot in the fast paced action of Sim City. That's not the fucking point. When the game is slowed down to a crawl, and is unplayable because you cannot control the game due to the constant slow-down, then it's not about squeezing "extra FPS." You fuckers are dense. "And I'm saying without a relationship with God and those strong convictions HE put in me I wouldn't be a 42 year old who hasn't had sex with anyone today."
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I want a new game for the summer. Any suggestions? Enter the Matrix is rather enjoyable. like a fox
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Heh "YES!! You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games. Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
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#221 by Marsh Davies What's so great about the sniping, Hugin? It seemed pretty much the same as any other game with sniping in. Zoom. Click. I didn't say it's unusual, just that that's the thing about the demo I liked. There are plenty of oppotunities to disrupt ambushes and such with sniping, plenty of places to take up a good position and pick enemies off. And the gun doesn't do anything annoying when you shoot it. Do some sniping in Enemy Territory, and then you'll see why the sniping in Breed was the best part of the demo. Oh, and if anyone else plays the demo, whatever you do, don't try to climb a ladder. You'll be sorry. |
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The funny thing is, that this behaviour is probably the root of all "whiner" problems. Kudos to 3D Realms, who have refrained from releasing demos/tech demos/alphas/whatever of their upcoming Duke Nukem Forever; the result being that there are almost no "vaporware", "this game sucks", "hahaha it's gonna take another 10 years to complete!!@!%&!" style discussions. Morn wrote this April 23, 2000. I was just surfing the archives. "YES!! You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games. Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
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The funny thing is, that this behaviour is probably the root of all "whiner" problems. Kudos to 3D Realms, who have refrained from releasing demos/tech demos/alphas/whatever of their upcoming Duke Nukem Forever; the result being that there are almost no "vaporware", "this game sucks", "hahaha it's gonna take another 10 years to complete!!@!%&!" style discussions. Morn wrote this April 23, 2000. I was just surfing the archives. "YES!! You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games. Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
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