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Acceptable Losses
March 16th 2003, 14:32 CET by Jibble Black and White tried it with their hit-and-miss weather system. Now we see more and more prominence of Spyware in almost everything we download. Even the latest version of TurboTax wreaks all kinds of havoc on your machine. In a world where Spyware is as hated as popup ads, will the process of gathering user information ever be the same as when it was better protected? Will those few who only use people's information to provide better demographics to create better products become extinct? |
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Topic: Acceptable Losses
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I agree with Hulka, except for the fact that I'm not going to be really happy even if they comply to all 6 demands, and will insist they don't, in fact, comply. Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration. "I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming March 19 (Wang Wednesday) |
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I say just drop some daisy-cutters on the spyware and get it over with. Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules.
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Drop some daisy-cutters on the people who think spyware is great. "Not wearing pants and nobody knows but you."
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Jibble: In a world where Spyware is as hated as popup ads, will the process of gathering user information ever be the same as when it was better protected? Will those few who only use people's information to provide better demographics to create better products become extinct? to answer that question, I think you should look at the root of the problem. Why do software developers include spyware in their programs? Is it to sell the information gathered to third party companies, to be used for marketing purposes? possibly. Spyware can gather huge amounts of info from a whole lot of people, which makes it easier, cheaper and faster than a telemarketing- or street survey campaign. but the information that spyware produces can be highly doubted on its usefulness and credibility: it can only show information it can access, and that is probably too little for anybody to draw viable conclusions on the interests of a certain target audience. Could it be to gather information for improvement of service? that would be a credible explanation. If software developers would ever actually care for that kind of user input (it is by the way fairly understandable if they ignore 99% of all user feedback). Such a service could also just be there for cosmetic purposes, and serve as a way to stop people from complaining, or give them the false idea that their input is actually valued. But from most spyware, I get the feeling that it's there not because the developer has a purpose for it, but just because they can. Like the topic says, almost everything's riddled with spyware, now. And such programs are really easy to make. It would take less than five minutes to add a function to a program that reads out a bunch of registry keys and sends them to a certain server, at regular intervals. Because I fail to see what good it could be for anyone to, for example, count how many people have Windows XP installed, when you can look at sales figures for an equally representative count. What could the use be of tracking how many times people visit certain sites, when you can derive usage statistics through several other means? Yo mama's so fat, all the restaurants in town have signs that says: "Maximum Occupancy: 240 Patrons OR Yo Mama"
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to clarify: not because the developer has a purpose for it, but just because they can ...put spyware in there. Yo mama's so fat, all the restaurants in town have signs that says: "Maximum Occupancy: 240 Patrons OR Yo Mama"
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If they have a credible reason to install it, then they shouldn't have to hide the fact that they are putting it onto your system. Without your knowledge makes me tend to think they have dubious reasons for installing, otherwise they'd come right out and tell you. Thieves don't call ahead before the burglarize your home. I'm 36 years old, and I STILL sit at the little people table for Thanksgiving!
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Because I fail to see what good it could be for anyone to, for example, count how many people have Windows XP installed, when you can look at sales figures for an equally representative count. But what about all the warez copies out there? <@jafd> Anyway, Darth, your name is stupid. sry.
<@Ashiran> So no more darthnugget? <@haplo> darthnugget has left the building |
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Having worked marketing, I think they do believe it's a legit way of gathering info. It's just the kind of think marketing people would think up. Information has become God to them; opinion polls, test groups, data mining, etc. And yet, bad products still get released on the market. Go figure. But what the real problem with spyware is, it can be fooled, tricked, defeated, blocked, and is really useless as an information tool. And it's hated with a passion, it's buggy, it causes harm, but we seem to be, since the fall of the dot.coms, in an anything goes environment for businesses, just so long as money is coming in. I believe I can fly......urk.
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But what about all the warez copies out there? Even pirates fill out surveys. I believe I can fly......urk.
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lpmiller: It's just the kind of think marketing people would think up. Information has become God to them; opinion polls, test groups, data mining, etc. And yet, bad products still get released on the market. Go figure. and that kind of information is also really easy to obtain and requires little work, so the temptation of acquiring some spywared-info instead of actually doing field work is of course a lot higher. But when companies acquire spyware-gathered info, and use that to determine their strategy and product definitions, aren't they basically digging their own grave? I'd imagine a lot of those business would go out of business if they rely on spyware-info too much, so that ought to put a stop to this practice, shouldn't it? Yo mama's so fat, all the restaurants in town have signs that says: "Maximum Occupancy: 240 Patrons OR Yo Mama"
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What if the "spyware" didn't send the information? Like what if you bought some game, and the game checked your hard drive and saw that Quake 1 was installed, and so somewhere in the game it makes some funny comment about Shamblers. Or something. Would this be an acceptable way to kind of personalize your gameplay experience? A game made with a bit of humor, like NOLF, could really make me laugh with something like this. The world makes me go tharn
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Haplo-- Best avatar EVAR. "Folks, you can't walk into a bar holding a porcupine, set it on fire and expect to make liquorice!" --Dana Carvey as Ross Perot
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You said I had the best avatar ever... *sniff* *sob, bluh* Now you're up shits creek with a turd for a paddle
DVDs |
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Like what if you bought some game, and the game checked your hard drive and saw that Quake 1 was installed, and so somewhere in the game it makes some funny comment about Shamblers. Or something. Would this be an acceptable way to kind of personalize your gameplay experience? A game made with a bit of humor, like NOLF, could really make me laugh with something like this. no. Now you're up shits creek with a turd for a paddle
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Next to yours of course, Squeaky. I'm such a whore. "Folks, you can't walk into a bar holding a porcupine, set it on fire and expect to make liquorice!" --Dana Carvey as Ross Perot
DVDs |
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Haplo-- Best avatar EVAR. "leave everything to me!" <@jafd> Anyway, Darth, your name is stupid. sry.
<@Ashiran> So no more darthnugget? <@haplo> darthnugget has left the building |
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nothing: That would indeed be pretty damn funny. <@jafd> Anyway, Darth, your name is stupid. sry.
<@Ashiran> So no more darthnugget? <@haplo> darthnugget has left the building |
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no. Why not? How does that differ from Psycho Mantis looking at your memory card in MGS and commenting on your style of play? What?
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Collection of usability data, how users use the UI to activate certain functions... The seeming unanimity among poets makes them look suspiciously like a herd of independent minds.
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Like what if you bought some game, and the game checked your hard drive and saw that Quake 1 was installed, and so somewhere in the game it makes some funny comment about Shamblers. Or something. Would this be an acceptable way to kind of personalize your gameplay experience? A game made with a bit of humor, like NOLF, could really make me laugh with something like this. Back when Sir-tech was still publishing games, it published a POS game called, Virus: The Game, which scanned the content of your harddrive and looked for images to be used as textures in the game and the file directories were used as "mazes." |
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Only if they are explicitly told this will occur, and are given a chance to opt-in, bago. Googlism: whisp is de expert in zwerkbal
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Why not? How does that differ from Psycho Mantis looking at your memory card in MGS and commenting on your style of play? Because Metal Gear Solid sucks. |
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no. Reinforcing your no, stressing it with propaganda leaflets strewn from passing planes, emphasizing it with grassroots movements. "Oh man, this game looked on my hard drive, saw all the porn, and now it won't stop making jokes about fisting when I'm trying to play! HILARIOUS!" I, Complainicus
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no. Ok, maybe not that exact example. But what if a game collected data for it's own use instead of sending it away to email lists? Is it the collecting of the data that pisses people off, or the misuse? The world makes me go tharn
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Why not? How does that differ from Psycho Mantis looking at your memory card in MGS and commenting on your style of play? "OHHHHH.... I see you REALLY LIKE CASTLEVANIA!" FIGHTING FOR PEACE IS LIKE POSTING ON PLANETCRAP FOR INTELLIGENCE! --morn |
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HOW ABOUT A GAME OF GALAGA? Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules.
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Because Metal Gear Solid sucks. What? What?
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Because. |
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Hugin To add one more thing to your demands. I should have the ability to easily see what information is being collected and how that information is being sent. With out that no matter how responsible the collection is being done it will continue to be the big bag boogie man of software. I've sent hours running down why Download Accelerator Pro was spy-ware before only to find out all it did was use IE to display the ads in the program. It still shows up as spy-ware in some cleaning programs, the recently linked spybot for example (who's description of the program says nothing about why it gets listed). |
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Fine. Be that way. I'm 36 years old, and I STILL sit at the little people table for Thanksgiving!
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"Oh man, this game looked on my hard drive, saw all the porn, and now it won't stop making jokes about fisting when I'm trying to play! HILARIOUS!" I would find that amusing. "Not wearing pants and nobody knows but you."
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Bailey needs an "Assassin-ware" |
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Spyware works, period. I don't think all of these developers would be using it if it didn't. Now, I'm not saying the information is some great thing they are getting, but they may believe it to be. For every one PlanetCrapper who knows how to get rid of spyware, there are a thousand Joe Compaqs who don't even know what it is. They are the targets--not us. "And I'm saying without a relationship with God and those strong convictions HE put in me I wouldn't be a 42 year old who hasn't had sex with anyone today."
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Oh bullshit Dethstryk. We all know it. You know it deep inside. You are the target, and no secret society will ever convince us otherwise. target. you are the be done with it. whatever. I hate being so.. well.. this... I'm 36 years old, and I STILL sit at the little people table for Thanksgiving!
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HOW ABOUT A GAME OF GALAGA? How about a game of Food Fight instead. <@jafd> Anyway, Darth, your name is stupid. sry.
<@Ashiran> So no more darthnugget? <@haplo> darthnugget has left the building |
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Deth: Spyware works, period. I don't think all of these developers would be using it if it didn't. Now, I'm not saying the information is some great thing they are getting, but they may believe it to be. By that reasoning, spam should work as well. and the real profitability of spam remains to be heavily questioned. But if it doesn't work, why does the load of spam increase? Yo mama's so fat, all the restaurants in town have signs that says: "Maximum Occupancy: 240 Patrons OR Yo Mama"
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From everything I've read, the real money in spam is in selling your email lists back and forth. Then again, when you send out millions of ads at a time for next to nothing, even a 0.01% return rate will get you to the breakeven point pretty quick. Googlism: whisp is de expert in zwerkbal
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Whisp beat me to it, Gunny. "And I'm saying without a relationship with God and those strong convictions HE put in me I wouldn't be a 42 year old who hasn't had sex with anyone today."
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Is Jibble the new m0nty? |
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If a product believes that spying on me is acceptable then I feel that using the product without paying for it (and removing the spyware) is acceptable. Thieves honor right? --jmc
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Justifications, ahoy! What?
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Spyware works, period. I don't think all of these developers would be using it if it didn't. I was going to say something in reply to this with regards to spam list selling, only two other people beat me to it, though in a far unfunnier and less snide fashion than I would have used. In short, Whisp and Gunpoint are the death of humor. Also, orphans. Thank you, and goodnight. I, Complainicus
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Warren's wearing his sailor outfit. Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules.
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>HELLO, SAILOR --jmc
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Bailey: you're just mad we got the kill and not you. Yo mama's so fat, all the restaurants in town have signs that says: "Maximum Occupancy: 240 Patrons OR Yo Mama"
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Yes, and I'm also jealous when your schoolyard chums hold down the retarded toddlers so you can suckerpunch them. I, Complainicus
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well, I'd be happy to suckerpunch you instead, if it makes you feel better. Yo mama's so fat, all the restaurants in town have signs that says: "Maximum Occupancy: 240 Patrons OR Yo Mama"
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(waiting for Warren to say something about donkeypunching) I, Complainicus
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I have one e-mail account that I use to register for any kind of online forums, for the registration of games, or whatever purpose. And, there is almost always a blurb about "we respect your privacy, and this informaiton will not be given, or sold to third parties". Less than 48 hours later(usually) I get spam mail which says at the bottom that I opted in for this shit because I subscribed at such and such a place...even after making sure those pesky check boxes were unchecked. Thing is, the parent company I registered with, might own a bazillion other subsidiary companies which would not be considered a third party under law. I've worked in marketing in one form or another over the past 20 years, and you would be surprised at the number of companies there are out that sell information on people. Back during 93-95, I worked as the marketing manager for a small security systems dealership. During my training I was given no less than 20 phone numbers of various companies I could call and request what were known as Call Lists. I could get as specific as I wanted about the information, such as "over 60, credit score of at least X, home owner, $ minimum income, ect..ect". These lists werent cheap either, for 5000 names of people who met my criteria, and lived in my target marketing area, I could end up paying as much as $2500.00 for this list of names. These companies did their homework, and you could be certain that the information you were paying for was accurate...right down to the home phone number and street address. And, if I made just 50 appointments out of that 5000(1%), market trends at the time would guarantee me at least 7-10 sales, and the list paid for itself on sale number 2. All of the information that is collected about you is being used by someone, somewhere. Whether it be from your computer, or elsewhere. Spyware is just making it that much easier for these companies to compile LARGE databases of personal information. And, it doesnt have to be accurate information to begin with...once they have a valid address, system ID number or whatever, the race is on. And everytime another bit of information comes in about you, it's just added to the database. Given just a couple of years or so of normal, online computer use, these companies can learn an awful lot about a person. "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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Coffee is for closers? I, Complainicus
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