What's the Franko, Botcho? · PlanetCrap 6.0

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What's the Franko, Botcho?
January 19th 2003, 14:19 CET by deadlock

I have been a regular at PlanetCrap for a number of years now. In that time, we have discussed many many many wonderful things. Again and again, over and over, ad nauseum. However, one of the more interesting subjects that we touch on is the capacity of modern computer games for telling a compelling, interesting tale. With, like, proper character development and shit.

I think we can all agree that games up until now have been largely devoid of any real depth. Storylines tend to be simplistic, characters one-dimensional and thematic variation very thin on the ground, the latter generally revolving around some kind of future dystopia. Or Nazi monster chicks in leather. I think we can also agree that games have a capacity to be so much more.

What I would like for us to do in this thread is explore videogames as a medium for story-telling. Here are a few questions to kick things off...

What are designers doing right?

In this category, you've got Deus Ex, Anachronox, the Metal Gear Solid games, any number of RPGs etc. None of these games are perfect examples - Deus Ex, for example is set in a pretty much cookie-cutter future dystopia, albeit a very well realised one, thanks to the huge amount of background story that was added. The Denton brothers aren't the most multi-dimensional characters either; though you could argue that, in the case of JC, that's a good thing since it lets the player impose more of their own personality on the game.

What are they doing wrong?

Do I really need to expand on this? Duke Nukem? Quake? Almost every game ever created?

Finally, Do we even want games with deep, meaningful plots?

The aforementioned Duke Nukem and Quake didn't exactly suffer, gameplay-wise, because of a lack of meaningful plot or deep characters. People remember Half-Life's plot as being a lot better than it was, thanks to the fact that it didn't give you a lot of time to actually think about it. Ico, my current obsession, is beautiful in it's simplicity, both aesthetically and plotwise.

So, over to you - agree with what I've said here? Disagree? How much importance do you attribute to a game's plot?

C O M M E N T S

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#149 by The_Joker
2003-01-20 10:25:15

I agree with FoodBunny, let's slap a vagina onto everything. Perhaps then I'll have much bigger chances of getting laid.

Besides, I wonder what Duke would be like with a vagina.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka
PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming March 19 (Wang Wednesday)

#150 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-01-20 10:31:39

A Duchess?

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
IMDB Entry
DVD Collection

#151 by The_Joker
2003-01-20 10:40:43

Yes, that would bring new meaning to "Come get some!"

#152 by Ryslin
2003-01-20 11:13:50

I was accually paying attention and reading this thread till Jokers post.

I am now crawling under my desk and screaming in tounges about how horrid the world is.

Thank you Joker for accually being WORSE than my boyfriend at those sorts of statements.

/me runs and hides now

NO!

#153 by Ashiran
2003-01-20 11:45:21

Joker is always worse.

Wooden love

#154 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 11:56:13

Better him than me.

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#155 by m0nty
2003-01-20 15:22:23

Serves everyone right for straying into DNF marketing territory.

#156 by Hugin
2003-01-20 15:34:49

#152 by Ryslin
Thank you Joker for accually being WORSE than my boyfriend at those sorts of statements.

You have a boyfriend who is to some significant fraction similar to Joker?

Ew.

#157 by CheesyPoof
2003-01-20 15:39:04

That must give joker some hope.

#158 by jjohnsen
2003-01-20 16:05:35

I won the lotto last night on the way back from Idaho.

#159 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 16:24:06

I need a couple hundred more for my plane ticket to Australia. Hook me up?

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#160 by jjohnsen
2003-01-20 16:30:14

I only won $4. And the ticket cost me $1.

#161 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 16:54:37

Alright, three bucks is better than nothing. Paypal sound good?

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#162 by CheesyPoof
2003-01-20 16:55:48

Uh-oh, you're a bad little Mormon. What's next, drinking non-decaf coffee?!

#163 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 17:20:22

I really need to try some kind of internet-based musican throw-change-into-my-paypal-account shit.

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#164 by "Longhorn"
2003-01-20 17:29:51

You mean Duke doesn't already have a vagina?

#165 by jjohnsen
2003-01-20 17:37:30

Uh-oh, you're a bad little Mormon. What's next, drinking non-decaf coffee?!

You're right, maybe I should donate it to a charity to get rid of the bad karma. And coffee tastes like vomit to me, so there's no danger of that happening.

#166 by Warren Marshall
2003-01-20 17:46:55

A vomit connoisseur, huh?

Put on your two step shoes, lose the blues and dance like it's year zero.

#167 by jjohnsen
2003-01-20 18:00:12

You have the cow vomit, the horse vomit, the 10 vodkas and a pack of cigarettes vomit. Coffee is definately way down there on the vomit taste list.

#168 by Bailey
2003-01-20 18:16:44

10 vodkas? I wasn't aware they doubled as imperical measuring amounts.

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#169 by Ashiran
2003-01-20 18:46:02

Only when the vodkas themselves are double.

Wooden love

#170 by Bailey
2003-01-20 18:58:55

God, just... just walk away from the english language forever.

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#171 by E-ph0nk
2003-01-20 18:59:26

On a sidenote: comedy games have been done (well) imo: adventures. Take Larry, or any lucasart adventure. Too bad it all got stuck on implementing original gameplay.

*sigh*

#172 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 19:07:07

USB ports are great, but just because I plug my Sidewinder into a different one than normal doesn't mean Windows should think it's a completely new device and reinstall drivers.

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#173 by Ergo
2003-01-20 19:13:10

Says you.

There are no bigger liars than quacks — except for their patients. -Benjamin Franklin

DVDs

#174 by "ragou"
2003-01-20 19:20:29

There are games with good plot! If you had played some good adventures you would have known! Now you go and play Gabriel Knight, Grim Fandango, Syberia, The Longest Journey, Broken Sword, The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes or some other great adventure game with good plots!

#175 by Ergo
2003-01-20 19:22:51

What?

There are no bigger liars than quacks — except for their patients. -Benjamin Franklin

DVDs

#176 by Charles
2003-01-20 19:34:43

Holy cow! Better do what he says! All those exclamation points must mean something!

"People who give John Edwards money are stupid, and you're stupid for defending them, stupid." -- Your Friend

#177 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 19:36:31

Plus, he makes me hungry!

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#178 by Bailey
2003-01-20 19:42:37

That's the kind of guy that needs to be tied to the pipes under the sink to keep him from hurting himself and others.

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#179 by deadlock
2003-01-20 19:45:23

That's very compassionate Bailey, I'd have thought you'd be a propenent of hitting him repeatedly with said pipes. Or, failing that, the sink itself.

there's stains on the carpet and crap on the pavement
----
glue

#180 by Shadarr
2003-01-20 19:45:27

I saw Syberia in the store yesterday. It looked like a really crappy game set in a really cool world.

#181 by deadlock
2003-01-20 19:45:36

Proponent, even.

there's stains on the carpet and crap on the pavement
----
glue

#182 by Bailey
2003-01-20 20:01:05

I thought it was a given that he'd be encouraged to eat what he found under the sink.

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#183 by E-ph0nk
2003-01-20 20:16:45

All idiots aside, i still mise my portion of adventure games...

*sigh*

#184 by E-ph0nk
2003-01-20 20:16:54

mise is the new 1337

*sigh*

#185 by "Anonymous"
2003-01-20 20:20:18

I agree with ragou. All these replies in this thread, and very, very few references to adventure games, which are nothing if not all about story, plot, and character development. Remember that many action games have borrowed from the adventure genre in terms of being story and exploration driven. Some of the best titles to 'lose yourself in': Gabriel Knight 3: Blood Of The Sacred, Blood Of The Damned, Grim Fandango, and The Longest Journey.

There are also some upcoming titles heavy in story and plot: Broken Sword 3, Hannibal, and Call of Cthulhu to name a few.

#186 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 20:24:27

Gabriel Knight 3 rocked my cock.

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#187 by Ergo
2003-01-20 20:25:44

Ragou and anon--

Gunp01nt did say "with the exception of adventure games." Pay attention.

There are no bigger liars than quacks — except for their patients. -Benjamin Franklin

DVDs

#188 by Dethstryk
2003-01-20 20:29:43

You expect anonymous folks to read shit?

The Dictatorship of Tentaclerapia.

#189 by Shadarr
2003-01-20 20:35:20

Ah, Anonymous posts extolling the virtues of adventure games. If there's a more harmonious union, I don't want to see it.

#190 by "Homoludens"
2003-01-20 20:35:29

Sorry, Ergo. (Somehow when I posted, it made me 'Anonymous') I didn't read every single post.

Anyway, I listed a couple of upcoming titles that are not pure adventures, but are still heavily story, puzzle, and exploration driven (arguably three of the adventure genre's legacy). Most adventures lack any sort of action elements. Do most everyone here prefer a combination of action and adventuring? Deus Ex is in my top ten of most cherished games, and it's a perfect combination. I imagine Call of Cthulhu will be the same. Also, I highly recommend Blair Witch Volume 1: Rustin Parr, and the Silent Hill series. Very nice.

#191 by Hugin
2003-01-20 20:46:42

Adventure games are cool, except for the "cat hair moustache" component of some of them.

#192 by Bailey
2003-01-20 20:57:24

You mean the "Sierra Phenomena"?

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#193 by The_Joker
2003-01-20 21:02:57

Ryslin:

Sounds like a nice guy, your boyfriend. And if you ever feel like hiding, I've got the perfect hiding place for you.

#194 by Petri Jarvilehto
2003-01-20 21:21:19

Heh, coming late to this party.

#12 by Warren Marshall

Finally, Do we even want games with deep, meaningful plots?

I think this is more to the point. Why do people harp on about deep story lines in games? Why do they want that? Why not just have fun within the games universe and leave the story telling to movies and books?

Because story and characters give you stuff that you can relate to. They provide the context for your actions. Why did you guys spend money on the UT2k3 opening cinematics? To establish that there are intrguing characters (umm... well, ok characters) and to provide the setting and context for the killing.

#29 by Caryn

Hugin hit it on the mark: "story" shouldn't always be "cutscenes only or reading lots of stuff". I think so far we've seen a lot of that because developers are still trying to find a way to mesh the story with the gameplay. If you have a plotted out story that you're trying to tell, you really have to tie up your gamer for a minute or two in order to tell it, otherwise he might wander off to go shoot things and miss the plot point you're trying to convey.

Yeah, integrating the story with the gameplay is a hot topic at our office, and it’s darn hard. It usually boils down to the basic problem of how do you tell a story if almost any component is optional.

#71 by Marsh Davies

You know, I quite like the protagonist to have a specific identity, other than my own...

Actually, I think that in any given game we are play-acting. Even in Doom you’re not yourself (the nerd with the glasses), but you’re play-acting the role of The Space Marine with The Shotgun. Sure, there may be a conflict if you create a character that people don’t like (Gabriel Knight 3 anyone?), so the “guy with the shotgun” is certainly an easy neutral way to avoid pissing anyone off, but then again it also misses such massive potential. Characters are memorable, they’re intriguing and they’re certainly a strong differentiating factor for any game.

#92 by Hugin

Give me (somehow) the game equivalent of a romantic comedy with Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts/Meg Ryan/Sandra Bullock, and suddenly you're talking about a whole new world of people to sell games to. Me? Maybe not (or maybe so).

This is so absolutely right. The developer who creates the first comedy game will have a good future. The developer who manages to make people cry will change the world of gaming. Games are moving forward from the basic emotions of scare or sruvival and starting to work on a wider emotional range.

#103 by Warren Marshall

True. However, I imagine the market for adult games is a lot smaller than the one for "kids" games. If a company has to weigh both types of games against trying to make money, adult games doesn't look like a great avenue to pursue. Smaller market, much more demanding, etc.

Smaller market? Average gamer nowadays is probably somewhere in 28 age. And if you hit adult segment, these people are the ones who have jobs and buy stuff (instead of warezing).

#195 by Bailey
2003-01-20 21:34:30

Games are moving forward from the basic emotions of scare or sruvival and starting to work on a wider emotional range.

Har.

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#196 by Foodbunny
2003-01-20 21:35:51

The developer who creates the first comedy game will have a good future.

Uh, Lucasarts?

The developer who manages to make people cry will change the world of gaming.

Final Fantasy 7 and the death of Aeris is often quoted as the moment that made people cry. Other Final Fantasy games have done it too.

It won't have any impact on DNF. Nothing really does.

#197 by Bailey
2003-01-20 21:36:16

I think he meant romantic comedy, Foody.

Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend.

#198 by Neale
2003-01-20 21:38:16

Aeris dies? OH MY GOD YOU JUST SPOILED THE GAME FOR ME!

(just kidding)

You can't derail this train of idiocy, Shadarr. Not even with a big fat cow of logic on the tracks. - Bailey

C O M M E N T S

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