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Vote Duke Nukem Forever!
December 8th 2002, 13:48 MSK by Charles Wired Magazine is asking for submissions for their annual Vaporware Awards. Year in and year out, technology companies promise a slew of revolutionary new products that will forever change life as we know it. But invariably, some of the most eagerly anticipated gizmos are postponed, shelved or simply never make it out of beta. And so every year Wired News gives our readers the opportunity to nominate whatever it was they most looked forward to, and were cruelly denied. Welcome to our annual Vaporware Awards. There you go folks, do your duty as democratic citizens and vote! In 2000 Duke Nukem Forever made it to the number 2 spot on the Vaporware awards, having this to say: Duke Nukem Forever: 3Drealms started work on Duke Nukem Forever in early 1997 with a delivery date slated for January 1998. Needless to say, it's still not out. Officially, the release date of this game is 'when it's done,' according to the company's website. In 2001 Duke Nukem managed to blast itself in to first place. And the winner is ...: Wired News would likely make its parent company a lot of EBITDA if we had a tech guy write a neat little script to automatically put this game on our Vaporware list each year. First announced in 1997, the thing is so vaporous it received at least twice as many votes as the number two application on this list. Of course, we're talking about Duke Nukem Forever -- 3-D Realms' shooter game that's been four years in the making, with no release date in sight. Ever optimistic, the famed Scott Miller responded with the following: "It's a very ambitious game," he said. "It's not cookie-cutter shooter like most are nowadays, and we're pushing a lot of standards. The proof will be in the pudding." So there you have it. The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is nowhere to be seen. |
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Topic: Vote Duke Nukem Forever!
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That is the very first and hopefully last time I ever hear the term "the noughties." Imagine the world in a bottle. We take that bottle, smash it, and open your throat with it. I warn you, we are murderous - COIL
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Sorry. What do you call it then? - Marsh -
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In the last couple of centuries, the single digit first decade was generally referred to as the "oughts" rather than the "noughts", though of course it's the same thing, just a reference to the zero. |
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I've never openly questioned 3DR for taking so long on releasing DNF, but getting repeated Vaporware awards has got to make more than just the casual gamer stop and take notice. What about the investors behind the publishing company who are concerned about the bottom line? This has got to be making a lot of people in certain places at least a little nervous. Unreal was in dev for ~5 years, and that time included developing the engine no less. Just a few seconds ago I picked up the phone and called my friend who manages the EB store near here and asked him about DNF and any kind of release date, he actually laughed at my inquiry...but the EB computer system returned April 15th as the next possible release date, and I was told those dates are given to EB by the publishers....so who knows. "One of the principal points about the sin stupidity is that it flatters the sinner."
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Mank EB are pretty funny with their release dates actually. I don't know where they come from in all honesty. During UT2003 we used to stop by the local EB's every few weeks and check the "Upcoming Games" board they have posted to see when we were supposedly shipping ... always good for a chuckle. Kill a man, you're a murderer,
Kill many, you're a conqueror, Kill them all, you're a god. |
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new ibook = much love! "Anal sex with men is fine. But with girls? Heaven forbid!" - Warren Marshall
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Warren, did any of you tell the guys at the EB stores who you worked for? I honestly think that would be hilarious. Ask them their release date, and then tell them you work for Epic and that they're wrong. :) |
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Warren, did any of you tell the guys at the EB stores who you worked for? I honestly think that would be hilarious. Ask them their release date, and then tell them you work for Epic and that they're wrong. :) Yeah, we'd mess with them sometimes. "So UT2003 is coming out next week?" "Yep! Would you like to pre-order a copy?" "No, thanks. It won't be out then anyway ..." "What makes you say that?" "Well ..." I go in there quite a bit, but they can never seem to remember where I work. They remember that it's a game company now, but they can never recall whether it's Epic or Red Storm. Kinda funny ... Kill a man, you're a murderer,
Kill many, you're a conqueror, Kill them all, you're a god. |
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When I think of DNF what comes to mind in the time they spent working on that game I've been able to play NOLF 1&2. They were immensily fun games and there is no way DNF is going to be as fun as both of those games. Of course DNF will probably outsell NOLF1&2 combined, but that dosn't matter to me the gamer. I'm just concerned about gameplay and I doubt all this development time will improve gameplay that much. |
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Mank: I've never openly questioned 3DR for taking so long on releasing DNF, but getting repeated Vaporware awards has got to make more than just the casual gamer stop and take notice. What about the investors behind the publishing company who are concerned about the bottom line? This has got to be making a lot of people in certain places at least a little nervous. Unreal was in dev for ~5 years, and that time included developing the engine no less. Not that Scott needs someone like me to speak for him, but he's said repeatedly that awards like this only serve to keep DNF in the gamer consciousness, which is fine by them because as many have said before, it's only late until it ships. As for investors, I'm talking out of my ass but my guess is that those who need to know more details about the development stage of the game probably do, and it's more than we'll ever know. "It's not stupid! It's advanced!"
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What a stupid topic. What a stupid voting demographic! |
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So anyway, I feel it is of note to mention that the open source freespace 2 project has managed to fix my freespace 2 graphical glitches, and I am now able to play it again. Of course, their executable can't play the movies (volition couldn't release the movie player source, as it was Interplay's shitty code), but overall just being able to play the game again is pure love. |
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who the fuck put that spam in the submission bin? "A computer works with ones and zeroes. It's very convenient to know that. Especially when it crashes.
1-0 for the computer." |
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Caryn: Oh I understand, and what 3DR does with DNF is thier bussiness. But it's beginning to reach a point of critical mass it seems, and from what we've seen already there is a LOT of money that has been tied up for an extremely long time with, as of yet, no returns whatsoever....just sayin. "One of the principal points about the sin stupidity is that it flatters the sinner."
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Mank AFAIK, 3D Realms is self funded. Meaning, they don't have to answer to anyone if the game is late, delayed, etc. The only ones they can possibly hurt are themselves. So really, what does it matter when the game comes out? As long as they are comfortable with their schedule, the rest of the world should just fucking relax. Kill a man, you're a murderer,
Kill many, you're a conqueror, Kill them all, you're a god. |
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Lets not forget all the Take Two shares they have now thanks to the Max Payne IP selling, which are worth way more than when they got them... honest. "Anal sex with men is fine. But with girls? Heaven forbid!" - Warren Marshall
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#38 agreed People always blame games that are/play rushed. When a developer chooses to not rush their game, take their time to do it right etc, they get flamed for not being fast enough & making vapourware. They owe you nothing! *sigh*
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They owe me strippers. "Anal sex with men is fine. But with girls? Heaven forbid!" - Warren Marshall
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damn.. i forgot the strippers *sigh*
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Warren: Thats fine, and more power to them. Like I said, I'm not trying to bash em here, just wondering about a few things, thats all. Whats gonna be interesting tho is if the game is released, and just so happens to coincide with the release(or near to it) of Doom3, whether by design, or not...=) "One of the principal points about the sin stupidity is that it flatters the sinner."
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Mank: Oh I understand, and what 3DR does with DNF is thier bussiness. But it's beginning to reach a point of critical mass it seems, and from what we've seen already there is a LOT of money that has been tied up for an extremely long time with, as of yet, no returns whatsoever....just sayin. Eh, is it really? The only money being tied up, as Warren mentioned, is likely 3DR's own. The critical mass you're talking about is only in the eyes of the gaming public, and only the small, hardcore section at that. I doubt there's a critical mass being reached as no one but Scott, George, and probably a handful of others know the real financial machinations behind DNF. We're all speculating about something we know extremely little about. I'm looking at DNF as the ultimate experiment in game publishing: can a company take many years to make a game and still reap profit (or better yet, make a really good profit)? I really have no idea if it's going to do well or not since I, like the rest of the world, know nothing about the game. I'm dying to see how well it does and I actually hope it does do well, because if it does I think it'll possibly start a good trend in the industry -- take longer to make your games and it'll be worth a lot more in the end than rushing out a game before it's truly ready in order to make quarterly goals. But then again, even if it does set this kind of trend I doubt it can be followed by most developers/publishers since they're not as independent as 3DR is. "Ahh, arrogance and stupidity in a single package -- how efficient of you."
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Warren: As long as they are comfortable with their schedule, the rest of the world should just fucking relax. Sure... I just don't understand how they can be comfortable with it - I mean, how much longer can it be before they need another engine change? The anachronistic concept aside, there are loads of other aspects of the game - mission complexity, graphics, blah blah - that are going to be left behind by the times, or require repeated wholescale revamping. Hell, you're a developer - what problems are there with massively long development times? - Marsh -
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Take Two has $6 million sunk into DNF (probably more like $8+ mil due to Net Present Value of $6 mil back when the deal was made), and owe another $6 million on delivery. Other than that, I don't know of anyone who has a stake in it besides 3D Realms themselves. "Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?" |
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I've seen some developers state that one of the problems with massively long development times is developer burnout. I don't have any links, but I'm sure I am not the only one to have heard that. Imagine, while we play with dozens of games over that time period, they have one. That first level must be boring some people to tears by now. Hehehe. I still hope it will kick butt, and I have a feeling that it will. It should also have massive amounts of content and take a million hours to finish. Might be the last of the big shooters, all the newer games seem to be starting out with smaller goals, but this one was started when big long games still ruled the roost. If they need a fresh set of eyes on the testing, I'm currently available. :) blah blah zzzZZZZ 111111111111111111111111111111111111 zzZZZZZ
Heuh? |
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I think it will live up to expections, because by now everyone is expecting an enormous wad of shit. As long as it isn't Daikatana it be surpass a lot of people's expectations. Because those expections have been continually dropping for years now. Open 'em wide
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I don't think it will suck. I do think it will be a game which will make me say, "Why did you spend X year on this game while you could have done it in X-Y?" The little hand that could! *note: that is not a DVD case*
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I think I will wait and see what the game is like before I determine what to say about the game. |
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I don't think it's possible for 3DRealms to lose money on this project, even if it didn't sell a single copy. The obscenely favorable contract provisions they have worked out with Take Two almost preclude this from occurring. They may not be able to get rich off of it, but they have little financial incentive to EVER finish it. Take Two could end up getting reamed though. If you were of the opinion that DNF was going to tank, shorting Take Two would be a safe bet. Googlism: whisp is de expert in zwerkbal
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I used to think the game would be a huge hit regardless of the quality but I'm not so sure anymore. It's been nearly seven years and while Duke 3D was a big game, I don't know that the character and sequel are being awaited with the same sort of anticipation as Warcraft III, for example -- another sequel that came seven years after the previous. Could be wrong, though. It's really hard to gauge how the character and game will resonate today. 3D Realms seems to be in an enviable position financially, so the game will certainly not be rushed, but burnout and constantly chasing tech *has* to be taking some sort of toll on the team. I think a Gamasutra-style post-mortem on DNF would make for a fascinating read, but I doubt we'll ever see one. "I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
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Creole Ned I think a Gamasutra-style post-mortem on DNF would make for a fascinating read, but I doubt we'll ever see one. I was hoping that we might since Broussard and Miller seem interested in helping other game devs make great games. A "What Went Right/Wrong" post-mortem would be useful to that purpose. As far as Wired's vaporware awards, I am a little surprised that DNF isn't out for this Christmas. I'm a little disappointed too, since there isn't any other Christmas titles that really grab me. But that's OK, because I'm still having a blast with UT2k3. |
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Yes, there is actual spam in the submission bin. Incredible. .i lu doi ringos.star. xu do puku'aroroi dunli dopecaku leni virnu li'u
.i lu go'i co'i le pamoi se morji be mi li'u |
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Perhaps it gets voted and we all become aware of what it advertises. .i lu doi ringos.star. xu do puku'aroroi dunli dopecaku leni virnu li'u
.i lu go'i co'i le pamoi se morji be mi li'u |
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I used to think the game would be a huge hit regardless of the quality but I'm not so sure anymore. It's been nearly seven years and while Duke 3D was a big game, I don't know that the character and sequel are being awaited with the same sort of anticipation as Warcraft III, for example -- another sequel that came seven years after the previous. Could be wrong, though. It's really hard to gauge how the character and game will resonate today. Warcraft III and DNF are entirely different beasts, of course. While there was a big lag between Warcraft II and III, Blizzard as a development company was kept well in the gamer's consciousness with Warcraft: In Space, and the Diablo games, all of which were well received by the gaming public. 3DR had a hand in Max Payne, but not in a way the general gaming population understands or knows about, for the most part. Other than that, what they've done is mostly rubber stamp a bunch of a REALLY CRAPPY Duke console titles (for someone that is such a brand/marketing 'guru' as Scott Miller is, you have to wonder how he allowed the brand to be associated with such shit). And then, of course, you have Manhattan Project, which sold quite poorly given the (supposed) 'strength of the brand'. I don't imagine DNF will be a _huge_ flop, but I think it will merely be a blip on the radar, lost in the noise of the best selling games of the time, which I predict will still be The Sims and its expansion packs, and the Rollercoaster Tycoons of the world. As others have mentioned, Scott & company will probably make out like bandits anyway, even if the game sells fairly poorly. If nothing else, they obviously have a knack for making sweet business deals. |
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I think a Gamasutra-style post-mortem on DNF would make for a fascinating read, but I doubt we'll ever see one. Yeah, no kidding. The game I'm fairly meh on, it's just another game, and I'm sick of talking about it. A real and candid postmortem would be a ton more interesting to me, especially considering the company line of how absolutely nothing that's ever happened has ever affected the development of DNF. You know there has to be some soap opera worthy shit there... |
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#47 by HoseWater I've seen some developers state that one of the problems with massively long development times is developer burnout. I don't have any links, but I'm sure I am not the only one to have heard that. I'll back that up. But the burnout usually stems from absurd levels of crunch, too much forced work, and unrealistic deadlines. Since from the sounds of it, 3drealms has none of this, I don't think burnout will be much of a problem. To tell the truth, I'd kill for a game industry job where I could just work a standard 8 hour day, get my stuff done, then go home without feeling like I owe more. Without the overriding sense of "oh god we don't have enough time" which seems so prevalent in game development. If the opportunity presented itself for that, I'd probably jump on it in a heartbeat. |
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The problem is that, if you're going to try to compete on advanced graphics and such (Scott Miller has said various times that advanced graphics are important, and he blamed the lack of such for being a huge part of the reason Manhattan Project failed, so stay with me on this..) then that sort of relaxed atmosphere probably won't work, unless the entire industry adopts it. Otherwise you'll be in constant catch-up mode, which seems to be the case at 3DR (note the engine changes). Such a relaxed work atmosphere would work OK on less-tech-heavy games, though, which clearly still sell quite well (Sims, etc). |
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I think the fact that 3DR is self-funded is fairly self-evident at this point. Any publisher funding the project would have either cancelled it by now, or just forced it out the door. And no, that's not just an unimaginative attempt at being flippant. 3DR is, all things being equal, a fairly unproven development house. They have only released one game that could really be considered a smash hit. Yeah, they own a popular IP, but that's not helping DNF get onto store shelves any quicker, nor is it guaranteeing sales up its release. That said, trying to predict the quality of DNF at this point is an exercise in armchair know-it-all-ism. At this point, no one outside of 3DR knows much of anything about how the game is shaping up. The most that can be said from a casual fan (or anyone on this forum) is that Duke will probably be able to flush toilets and shake money at strippers. Any speculation about the quality of the game, its graphics, etc., is entirely idle and meaningless. "The internet has gone all fiddle faddle foo."
-lwf |
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I thought we had more or less gathered from the bits of info available that outdated graphics by the time of release aren't that much of an issue because of the Unreal engine's modularity? |
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It doesn't take that much to keep tech current. Two dedicated guys would do the trick, for the most part. And as long as the artists keep their source art, they could have done it high detail to begin with, and the programmers can just make a change to exporters and pipelines with little difficulty, if it's set up properly. |
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Not to mention that artists can work fast if they know exactly what they are doing. Even if they are remaking their levels every four months, it wouldn't be that big of a deal overall. Especially if they've refined a nice tight design to work with. |
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Yeah, at this point, how good DNF will be is largely a function of how good the design specs they're working from our, how well they are able to meet the goals specified by that design, and how little they stray from them. I've always had the feeling that DNF was suffering from terminal feature creep. If that's the case, the game is going to take longer and, upon release, is going to feel less coherent. On the other hand, if they're able to stick to a strict design ethos, they may well end up with a really tight game on their hands, no matter how long it takes. "The internet has gone all fiddle faddle foo."
-lwf |
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Err, our = are. Can I do that outside of IRC? "The internet has gone all fiddle faddle foo."
-lwf |
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I bet after DNF comes out, they sell off the Duke Nukem IP. Why not? It makes sense, given what they've said in the past about IPs. One just has to look at Max Payne. Lust can never be satisfied with a pink highlighter
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So the next big thing will be the selling of IP's instead of liscensing engines? I sure as hell hope not. "One of the principal points about the sin stupidity is that it flatters the sinner."
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'next big thing'? Selling IPs already is the big thing. Freedom from the Ass of Doom is the treasure you will win.
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i must be missing something. if anything gets voted as vaporware once... wouldn't logic preclude it from being voted in again? because uh... if something's never going to come out LAST year, then it will also never be coming out THIS year, NEXT year, or ANY OTHER year. because it's never coming out. *scratch head* or, well, it could be a cheap publicity stunt for Wired, but naaaah, they'd never do something like that. By this time tomorrow we can be doing BODY SHOTS off HOOKERS in some MEXICAN HELLHOLE
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One of the things has has impressed me is just how tight a lid 3D Realms has kept on the game. Apart from the two E3 videos they released and a half dozen or so screenshots, I've seen absolutely nothing of it. No leaks, no credible rumors, nada. And regardless of the quality of the game, we already have the rather spiffy theme David Arkenstone did for the 2001 E3 trailer. "I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
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#70 What a coincidence! I read your post while I was actually listening to that theme song. I agree that it is very very awesome. I hope the final game will have more of that stuff, and also heavy on action like the trailer. If so, this game will really be something to play! The E3 trailer is an amazing piece of work. Put together very nicely. Also, David Arkenstone roolz. Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration. "I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka |
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Also, we can safely assume DNF is a 2004 or (probably much much) later title. 3DR is not going to make the mistake and release it in 2003 when Doom 3 is coming out. Even while they argue it's possible for both to be released almost at the same time without having any effect on eachother. Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration. "I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka |
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Happy birthday, Gunp01nt! Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration. "I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka |
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