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Why Realism Isn't the Pinnacle of Realtime 3d Graphics.
August 15th 2002, 16:42 CEST by Nova Z With faster and faster 3d hardware, everyone seems convinced that ultra-realistic realtime rendering is just around the corner. Well, I think that the closer hardware gets to doing realistic looking rendering, the more stylized game graphics will become, and the further away from real they'll move. The more games like Doom 3 or Steel Battalion we end up with, the more games will end up looking like the new Zelda, Robotech, or XIII. I think Nintendo is on the right track with the art design of their games right now. They are taking a system which is arguably the lesser of the three current gen consoles in terms of pure horsepower, and making some of the best looking games. The problem with trying to make things look realistic is that you will always fail. People just have too much experience with the real world to be tricked by generated graphics. Of course, there are solid reasons why game art will move away from realism in the future as well: 1) Art creation time becomes prohibitive. The time required to accurately model and texture realistic looking models and maps increases with the amount of detail you want to incorporate. Short of every game requiring an army of artists, this will be outside the scope of most developers, at least until the 3d content creation packages take an exponential leap forward in terms of useability. 2) Like usual, you can either have some super high detailed models, objects, and environments, or you can have significantly more stylized models, objects, and environments. Considering when you stylize things, you can cheap out on a lot of polies in a lot of cases, I think more developers will choose to go with the ability to have a bigger world by sacrificing some visual detail. 3) Does it really make that big of a difference? I mean, just because you can model the individual hairs on a character's head, doesn't mean you should, or must. Considering that most of those little details offer very little net improvement in visual quality, they are mostly frivolous. In the end, if for no other reason, graphics will move away from realism just for the opportunity to stand out among the crowd of games touting the 'photorealistic' buzzword when it becomes available. Having every game look like real would just be boring. PS: Fuck you Bailey. |
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Topic: Why Realism Isn't the Pinnacle of Realtime 3d Graphics.
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I think Ergo should start prepping, in case he needs to add TF+TF to the list. Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
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The Fast and Team Fortress! iamelectro
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Greg, what list is that? None, #60 Ha, seriously there is nothing that couldn't be created as a scale model then scanned (real or imagined). Escher, Dali type things, maybe. Speaking of Bored of Real Things, I still am waiting to see some cool drug effects in games. Space warping in weird ways, walls breathing via pulsating fishlens effect, textures starting to flow, faces melting... It's been awhile... Classic text adventure moves might be interesting too -- n + s and you're somewhere else, dammit! and that all time classic, it's pitch black. Show me an avatar in the upper left corner animated as I move, highlighting my shin when I bump it. I am full of ideas today! ...full of something in any case. You shall only use the Software on a single computer connected to a single monitor at any one time.
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Also, aren't there sticking to 3D rules models that you can't build for structural reasons, i.e. they'd fall apart? You shall only use the Software on a single computer connected to a single monitor at any one time.
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Greg, what list is that? Never, ever ask that question. You may get what you ask for. "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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The "cool loudness" of guns compared to thier movie counterpart depends on the gun. I can't say much about rifles, they aren't my thing. .38 and 9mm make teeny tiny wimpy "crack" noises when they fire. .45 makes a pretty good lower pitched coughing bang, and .357Magnum is damn loud, unpleasantly so. 12 gauge shotguns make a different noise depending on what you're shooing out of them, but in general, it's a fairly loud barking noise as well, sort of like the .45, but louder and a longer noise. .22 is a little crack noise again. No gun I've ever dealt with makes all the loud clicks and pops and cha-chink noises when you pull it out of a holster, chamber a round, cock the hammer, etc, that movie guns do. |
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Cliff, I haven't played it enough, but I've heard that in Eternal Darkness, when your sanity meter drops to a certain point, you get a lot of crazy effects. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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The problem, as I see it, is in animations. As soon as a character enters the scene, the whole thing screams "video game"! They're just too clunky and don't move like real people do. So true. In fact, the more realistic video games get, the more jarring the simplistic animations and physics/CD look. Having someone's arm pop through a wall due to loose bounding box collision detection isn't so bad in Cartoon World, but if the game you're in is trying to look as realistic as possible it really sticks out. As CPUs get faster and people start using boxed solutions (maybe even standardized APIs with hardware accelerated backends for physics? Could happen...) that are based on the work of Badler/Phillips/Webber, Hecker, et al things will improve in this area. Unreal's recent use of the Karma 'rag-doll' physics is a good (baby) step in this direction. |
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Huh. I have nothing to say on this subject matter. I don't feel one way or the other. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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Well then, thank you for your very empty post. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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hey, at least his post exceeded his sig in length :D iamelectro
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Also, aren't there sticking to 3D rules models that you can't build for structural reasons, i.e. they'd fall apart? Not really. Since the model doesn't have to stay standing any longer then untill it gets scaned and nobody will see it in the end anyway you can get away with some tricks to keep them from falling apart. Build it out of light materials, stuck an extra support here and there (they can be ignored while scaning or deleted after the fact depending on how your doing it), ect. And of course your not going to be able to do any thing that uses perspective tricks (which you really couldn't do in a 3d modeling program anyway, well at lest not with out a fixed view point). |
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Eternal Darkness's insanity effects are very fun and add a ton of atmosphere to the game but they aren't really what he is describing. First off there's two different sets of insanity effects... ones that effect the character and ones that effect the player. Character effects are things like trying a new spell for the first time and you blow up, hearing laughing or crying or door knocking or screaming, seeing blood dripping from the walls or bug crawling on everything or statues moving their heads to follow you. They're good and creepy but they don't really significantly alter the world, they are added on to it. Pulsing/breathing walls would have been an awesome and very eerie effect to add in, but it just wasn't there. Maybe in Eternal Darkness 2. Call of Cthulhu is also promising to have the world change as you grow more insane and I'm really, super-duper looking forward to seeing how they do it. If anything is going to have pulsing walls it's gotta be Cthulhu. Come back! You're not a freak, you're just stupid!
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Foodbunny: I hope an impossible hope that Call of Cthulhu can live up to my expectations. While we were apart, I was human too.... I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
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Hrm, Why am I reminded of Hulka? Realism indeed. iamelectro
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#41 by bago I can't beleive chris hasn't come in here and made this point yet, but the nifty thing about texturing realisticly, is you can just take pohots and touch them up, save yerself an assload of time. Nope, doesn't work like that. First problem is that phototexturing is quite much work => getting the textures to tile properly, getting all the color balances right so that they work as a set, finding suitable real locations, then hauling ass to real locations, getting permits for taking the photos, finding acceptable lighting (or rigging it up yourself) and so on takes a lot of time and effort as well. Second problem is that as you approach realism, the eye starts seeing the things that are missing. Let's say you're working on a cityscape. You have the exterior walls, the lights and the street modeled => looks sad. You add the fireposts, trashcans, signs and still it doesn't look right => you add dirt, make the surfaces worn, dirt on the asphalt and so on, and you're starting to get closer, but then somebody looking over your shoulder goes "hey, that looks totally real, but how come the streets are deserted." And even if you'd add those, there's bound to be someone who looks at the trashcan and goes "this only has 300 polygons, I can see that the edges are not round." :-) If you have a strongly stylized environment nobody will care, since it looks like a cartoon anyway. |
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I have two comments to make, listed here with the most important first: 1) Leslie, I disagree that Following was exactly like Memento. I don't think they were anything alike. Memento was much, much better. 2) Yes, stylized graphics are the future, for the reason given in the topic just after #3. So there.
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Communist. 2 days.
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Just commenting on the title of this topic, I don't think anyone said realism IS the pinnicle. But, for many games graphical realism is important, and it's nice to have as an option. Five years ago, the option wasn't available, but now it's becoming just another tool. It's up to the designer to use it or not. If you can read this, you're too close.
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Petri: well, if I had a really good URL cache I'd link to chris' tutorial about how to convert photos into textures, doing the seam/repeating work lighting correction bla bla bla. But I'll wait for him to do that. It's still work, just not as much as trying to imagine every pit in a wall of concrete. iamelectro
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Nova Well then, thank you for your very empty post. I know, we have so much in common! He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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#32 Taskmaster The problem, as I see it, is in animations. As soon as a character enters the scene, the whole thing screams "video game"! They're just too clunky and don't move like real people do. I agree with this and would much rather see this fixed than to have photorealistic texturing. It's bad enough seeing a jerky animation the first time, but when they repeat exactly the same way over and over it makes it even worse. But how long do you think it will be before progress gets made here? You know, being the smartey man developer and all I think you would know. Feel free to show off Epic's latest tech. We won't give any secrets away. Right guys? I've just dinged up...in a bad way.
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Russ I agree with this and would much rather see this fixed than to have photorealistic texturing. It's bad enough seeing a jerky animation the first time, but when they repeat exactly the same way over and over it makes it even worse. But how long do you think it will be before progress gets made here? You know, being the smartey man developer and all I think you would know. Feel free to show off Epic's latest tech. We won't give any secrets away. Right guys? Well, since we're doing a high speed action game it doesn't really matter that in our game. We have some nice animations, but if they're not the best, does it really matter all that much? I was talking more from a single player point of view. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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I hope to see new and different stylization - not just cell shading, not that I have a problem with it, but it is sort of being used out of need for "feature X". The other thing to worry about is how well the style represents the gameplay. If the physics are highly realistic, then having cartoon characters jump a few inches off the ground is going to feel a little off. Likewise, having a SWAT guy who can jump 50 feet into the air and crush a tank with a small hammer is going to be (cool, but) jarring. Best facial expressions I've seen in a game to date. Tiger Wood's golf!! The best way to create an award winning game is to write the acceptance speech first.
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Nova is wrong. People are going to continue to strive for realism in games until they actually get it. Once you can look at a game and not the see the difference between that and the real world, then it will become passé, not until then. Until I jack into Everquest 2050 and every looks like it could in the RL, I'm going to be interested in seeing photo realism in games. I'm not saying all the of attempts so far have been good, and I'm not saying every game should try for it, but I have to argue with the idea it's time has already passed. This post made sense in my head.
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Nova is wrong. We are talking about what is actually good, not what people want. "Hey, uh, hey ladies. My name is John McGuirk. I am a, uh, professional soccer coach at the, uh, elementary school level, and I, uh, own a nice car. Though I do not currently have legal access to it. Uh, as you can see, I used to be in good shape, and uh, in the last two years I have successfully completed four out of five rehab programs. The kind of woman I'm interested in is the one, uh, I guess, who's still watching this video."
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We are talking about what is actually good, not what people want. Disregarding the idea that when I said people, I meant me, you're going to tell me people wouldn't have wanted NWN to look absolutely real instead of a computer game? Until we have the look of realism, we'll continue to strive for it. This post made sense in my head.
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you're going to tell me people wouldn't have wanted NWN to look absolutely real instead of a computer game Spoken like someone who has never been to a Ren Faire. "Hey, uh, hey ladies. My name is John McGuirk. I am a, uh, professional soccer coach at the, uh, elementary school level, and I, uh, own a nice car. Though I do not currently have legal access to it. Uh, as you can see, I used to be in good shape, and uh, in the last two years I have successfully completed four out of five rehab programs. The kind of woman I'm interested in is the one, uh, I guess, who's still watching this video."
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Until we have the look of realism, we'll continue to strive for it. I really don't see that happening. The closer and closer we get to realism the more and more it'll be subtly distorted for added effect. Sure there will be people still striving for realism (appropriate or not) but I'd hope by that time the vast majority of game designers would have figured out that the real world isn't as interesting as it seams now (by interesting I mean in a dramatic sort of way). |
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i play games to take a break from real life. that about sums it up. "Everyone knows the best way to live life is to troll messageboards." --Warren Marshall
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Nova_Z wrote: a whole bunch of stuff i was mostly replying to your claim that team sizes and development costs will increase by orders of magnitude as developers try to achieve photorealism in games. i'm not saying that artists should simply "scan" an object and let it be. By way of example, if i were creating a humanoid model, a good place to start would be to scan an actual human, and from there modify it to suit my needs (give it horns, or space armor, or whatever.) this type of technology would significantly reduce the time spent by an artist on a very-high-poly model, and as we approach *photorealistic* polycounts, i tend to imagine solutions like this will become more feasible and more common. Don't, for heavens sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense.
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My mom says you guys don't know jack about the future of graphics and presentation. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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Bailey- a true but meaningless statement. no knows jack about the future of anything. the future is inherently unknowable, and any predictions of it will be wrong most of the time. that doesn't keep it from making good conversation fodder. Don't, for heavens sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense.
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Um, hello????? Miss Cleo knows! Aside from that, I like Matthew's "We are talking about what is actually good, not what people want." comment. If you don't believe that what people want is almost universally a bad idea, just take a look at the fan-catered Star Wars prequels. If you bar wars, don't bar my Star Wars.... I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
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Episode 1 was fan-catered? Someone should tell the fans. Quick! Reverse the polarity!
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It was fan-catered for the fans of 1983. Lucas just failed to take 16 years of nostalgia into account. 2 days.
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TF + TF == TF2. Now we know what Valve had been working on. |
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LesJarvis that doesn't keep it from making good conversation fodder. This thread has proven otherwise. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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Bailey, I believe your part in the conversation was succinctly dealt with in the topic. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Right, right, the whole "I'm frantically repressing my boundless love for Bailey" thing. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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I'm really starting to get the feeling that Bailey is actually some sort of posting, chatting, bot. He/it tends to reuse the exact same content far too often. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Aren't you due for a glowing orgasm over how great Deus Ex is right about now, Nova-Z? I believe I can fly......urk.
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He'd need a glowing orgasm augmentation canister for that, and a medbot of course. Jah Love
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In one of the Doom 3 shots, there are two of those fat "Plan 9 From Outer Space" zombies. The first thing I thought when I saw it wasn't how realistic the environment looked but how seeing two of the exact same figure spoiled the immersion. That sort of cookie cutter "you have 10 monsters and you'll like it" design really starts sticking out when you up the ante on realism. How long until we get an FPS where every character you encounter is unique, not just reskinned or drawn from a fairly limited (and repeated) set? A long time, I think. "I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
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Boy Ned, that was the biggest pony requesting we've seen around these parts in a while. Those screenshots also lack weapons, and a HUD. Do you think that's what the final game is going to look like? Each new screenshot has had new characters. It's called a work in progress. Think a bit. They've only got, like, three people and two computers there. They like to stay small is what I'm saying. "Hey, uh, hey ladies. My name is John McGuirk. I am a, uh, professional soccer coach at the, uh, elementary school level, and I, uh, own a nice car. Though I do not currently have legal access to it. Uh, as you can see, I used to be in good shape, and uh, in the last two years I have successfully completed four out of five rehab programs. The kind of woman I'm interested in is the one, uh, I guess, who's still watching this video."
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I wasn't requesting anything. "I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
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Nova Those in glass houses, and all that. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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i play games to take a break from real life. that about sums it up. --- Sure there will be people still striving for realism (appropriate or not) but I'd hope by that time the vast majority of game designers would have figured out that the real world isn't as interesting as it seams now (by interesting I mean in a dramatic sort of way). --- Spoken like someone who has never been to a Ren Faire --- I think games seeking to look exactly real will always fail miserably. Unless they adopt a style, use the right colors, the right pallette, the right lighting, the game will beunappealing and drab. --- In the end, if for no other reason, graphics will move away from realism just for the opportunity to stand out among the crowd of games touting the 'photorealistic' buzzword when it becomes available. Having every game look like real would just be boring. Since when did photo-realism become synonymous with the mundane? Are you telling me that to have a realisitc looking game, it has to be set on a city street, or in an architecturally-correct, crate-filled warehouse? What's stopping someone from making a photo-realistic fantasy game? Or a sci-fi adventure? I think a lot of you naysayers are (understandably) burnt out on realistic shooters with realistic visuals, and are confusing the issue by taking your frustrations with the former out on the latter. To me, realistic vs. stylized visuals in games have their counterparts in other forms of entertainment: In movies, you've got live-action vs. animation; in art, Sargent or Rockwell vs. the abstract; in music, traditional instruments vs. synthesized. Even in comics, you've got your graphic novels on one side, and the latest Scrooge McDuck or Archie on the other. Neither end of the spectrum has any more or any less value, entertainment, or fun inherent to them. When it comes right down to it, they're all just different ways of telling a story, or expressing an idea. "Give me both", is what I'm saying. |
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i think it's also important to remember that "realistic" and "stylized" are not mutually exclusive concepts. play pikmin for a good example. all the characters/enemies/ship parts certainly fall into the stylized category, while the micro-garden style environment is more of a realistic type, from the very well textured leaves and rocks to the water to the shadows. you can have your cake and eat it too. Don't, for heavens sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense.
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Whenever I see the acronym RFP in future, I shall read it as Request For Pony. For this blessing, I have PlanetCrap to thank. That is all. |
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