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Why Realism Isn't the Pinnacle of Realtime 3d Graphics.
August 15th 2002, 16:42 CEST by Nova Z With faster and faster 3d hardware, everyone seems convinced that ultra-realistic realtime rendering is just around the corner. Well, I think that the closer hardware gets to doing realistic looking rendering, the more stylized game graphics will become, and the further away from real they'll move. The more games like Doom 3 or Steel Battalion we end up with, the more games will end up looking like the new Zelda, Robotech, or XIII. I think Nintendo is on the right track with the art design of their games right now. They are taking a system which is arguably the lesser of the three current gen consoles in terms of pure horsepower, and making some of the best looking games. The problem with trying to make things look realistic is that you will always fail. People just have too much experience with the real world to be tricked by generated graphics. Of course, there are solid reasons why game art will move away from realism in the future as well: 1) Art creation time becomes prohibitive. The time required to accurately model and texture realistic looking models and maps increases with the amount of detail you want to incorporate. Short of every game requiring an army of artists, this will be outside the scope of most developers, at least until the 3d content creation packages take an exponential leap forward in terms of useability. 2) Like usual, you can either have some super high detailed models, objects, and environments, or you can have significantly more stylized models, objects, and environments. Considering when you stylize things, you can cheap out on a lot of polies in a lot of cases, I think more developers will choose to go with the ability to have a bigger world by sacrificing some visual detail. 3) Does it really make that big of a difference? I mean, just because you can model the individual hairs on a character's head, doesn't mean you should, or must. Considering that most of those little details offer very little net improvement in visual quality, they are mostly frivolous. In the end, if for no other reason, graphics will move away from realism just for the opportunity to stand out among the crowd of games touting the 'photorealistic' buzzword when it becomes available. Having every game look like real would just be boring. PS: Fuck you Bailey. |
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Topic: Why Realism Isn't the Pinnacle of Realtime 3d Graphics.
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Bailey, I believe your part in the conversation was succinctly dealt with in the topic. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Right, right, the whole "I'm frantically repressing my boundless love for Bailey" thing. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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I'm really starting to get the feeling that Bailey is actually some sort of posting, chatting, bot. He/it tends to reuse the exact same content far too often. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Aren't you due for a glowing orgasm over how great Deus Ex is right about now, Nova-Z? I believe I can fly......urk.
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He'd need a glowing orgasm augmentation canister for that, and a medbot of course. Jah Love
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In one of the Doom 3 shots, there are two of those fat "Plan 9 From Outer Space" zombies. The first thing I thought when I saw it wasn't how realistic the environment looked but how seeing two of the exact same figure spoiled the immersion. That sort of cookie cutter "you have 10 monsters and you'll like it" design really starts sticking out when you up the ante on realism. How long until we get an FPS where every character you encounter is unique, not just reskinned or drawn from a fairly limited (and repeated) set? A long time, I think. "I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
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Boy Ned, that was the biggest pony requesting we've seen around these parts in a while. Those screenshots also lack weapons, and a HUD. Do you think that's what the final game is going to look like? Each new screenshot has had new characters. It's called a work in progress. Think a bit. They've only got, like, three people and two computers there. They like to stay small is what I'm saying. "Hey, uh, hey ladies. My name is John McGuirk. I am a, uh, professional soccer coach at the, uh, elementary school level, and I, uh, own a nice car. Though I do not currently have legal access to it. Uh, as you can see, I used to be in good shape, and uh, in the last two years I have successfully completed four out of five rehab programs. The kind of woman I'm interested in is the one, uh, I guess, who's still watching this video."
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I wasn't requesting anything. "I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
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Nova Those in glass houses, and all that. He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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i play games to take a break from real life. that about sums it up. --- Sure there will be people still striving for realism (appropriate or not) but I'd hope by that time the vast majority of game designers would have figured out that the real world isn't as interesting as it seams now (by interesting I mean in a dramatic sort of way). --- Spoken like someone who has never been to a Ren Faire --- I think games seeking to look exactly real will always fail miserably. Unless they adopt a style, use the right colors, the right pallette, the right lighting, the game will beunappealing and drab. --- In the end, if for no other reason, graphics will move away from realism just for the opportunity to stand out among the crowd of games touting the 'photorealistic' buzzword when it becomes available. Having every game look like real would just be boring. Since when did photo-realism become synonymous with the mundane? Are you telling me that to have a realisitc looking game, it has to be set on a city street, or in an architecturally-correct, crate-filled warehouse? What's stopping someone from making a photo-realistic fantasy game? Or a sci-fi adventure? I think a lot of you naysayers are (understandably) burnt out on realistic shooters with realistic visuals, and are confusing the issue by taking your frustrations with the former out on the latter. To me, realistic vs. stylized visuals in games have their counterparts in other forms of entertainment: In movies, you've got live-action vs. animation; in art, Sargent or Rockwell vs. the abstract; in music, traditional instruments vs. synthesized. Even in comics, you've got your graphic novels on one side, and the latest Scrooge McDuck or Archie on the other. Neither end of the spectrum has any more or any less value, entertainment, or fun inherent to them. When it comes right down to it, they're all just different ways of telling a story, or expressing an idea. "Give me both", is what I'm saying. |
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i think it's also important to remember that "realistic" and "stylized" are not mutually exclusive concepts. play pikmin for a good example. all the characters/enemies/ship parts certainly fall into the stylized category, while the micro-garden style environment is more of a realistic type, from the very well textured leaves and rocks to the water to the shadows. you can have your cake and eat it too. Don't, for heavens sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense.
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Whenever I see the acronym RFP in future, I shall read it as Request For Pony. For this blessing, I have PlanetCrap to thank. That is all. |
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How long until we get an FPS where every character you encounter is unique, not just reskinned or drawn from a fairly limited (and repeated) set? A long time, I think. Peter Jackson and his WETA crew came up with Massive for LOTR which allows multiple enemies independent thought, or so they say, it'll be interesting to see if/how/when this technology is adapted to games. * A Special Message from Sgt Hulka (2 meg mpg)
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hah, some people here are clearly just jealous of those that manage to get 'first post' :-p Wanna be adored? Go to India and 'moo'
http://fragged.org/ |
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Happy Dead Elvis Day everyone! smells like fish, tastes like chicken!
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Happy Dead Elvis Day everyone! You don't move your arms and you don't move your legs You just do the, do the Dead Elvis You don't grind your pelvis, it's the dance of the dead Come on and do the, do the Dead Elvis 1 day.
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coda hah, some people here are clearly just jealous of those that manage to get 'first post' :-p This theory would hold up except for, you know, reality getting in the way. The people complaining about first posters tend to post something on topic when they get the first post. Radical thinking, I know ... "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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For me it's not if the game has realistic or styalized graphics, both can look amazing, it's if the look is believable. As with the sounds of guns, graphics are about a "suspension of disbelief". That's where level design succeeds and fails. It's not about if every detail of a city street is there, it's if it has the feel of a city street. Max Payne, for example. That first street you start in, the snow on the steps just 'got me'. It's not that it looked realistic, it made me believe I was in a cold NYC side street. Someone else pointed out how using photo-textures can be a pain. They can also lead to a very UN-realistic enviroment. If you are taking pictures all over the place in different lighting conditions even in different geographical locations they just not fit together. Sure you can play all day with filters and work with the colors to try to make them work.. but often they won't. Medal of Honor has a fantastic feature that gets over looked all the time. In the snow maps, where the snow sits on steps and walls there are sparkels in the snow. MoH has some amazing looking maps, but not because they are realisitic. They make use of some of the details of the real world. Just little touches here and there. I believe it's the little details the artist chooses to include that makes the game. I think a fully realistic game would be boring... hey I LIVE in the real world why would I want to pay $50 to see it on my computer? Howerver if you create a world, and it is believable, and you include little details that make sense in your game I will be amazed by it. Someone else asked if you would rather see a photo or something from an artists mind. I'd rather see what the artist was thinking and see the littel details that are important to him/her. |
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I love you, MC Warren Marshall. 1 day.
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1 day until Leslie's stalking photos get published! Photographer monkey. "When you have a job like me, you'll miss every summer" - H.S.
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Leslie I love you, MC Warren Marshall. Do I rock the mic hard enough to be an MC? Are there any higher? "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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Indeed. You get eleven points off the word quagmire. 1 day.
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In emulating VoodooExtreme (copy & paste) Forrester Research has surveyed a thousand music customers and concludes that MP3 downloads are good for the music business. Twenty per cent of those surveyed - two groups Forrester describes as "music lovers and music learners" - buy 36 per cent of CDs, and these enthusiastic downloaders said MP3s had no effect on their CD purchasing. "The idea that digital music is responsible for slump is completely false," concludes Forrester analyst Josh Bernoff. The news will dismay the greedy entertainment bosses. Forrester attributes the 15 per cent slump in music sales to a number of other factors. The economy is in a slump, there's much more competition from games, from DVDs - which saw an 80 per cent rise in sales - and most interestingly - from the "limited playlists" rotated by commercial US radio stations. "Labels have to stop focussing on distribution, and concentrate on promotion, and new accounting systems," says Forrester analyst Josh Bernoff. Will this stop the RIAA? not likely Ellen Feiss is my stoned goddess
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Back on subject... I don't care what it looks like ultimately, I want to be entertained. Ellen Feiss is my stoned goddess
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Well, as long as they swear that it's had no effect on their CD buying habits, I see no reason not to believe them ... I mean why would they lie? It isn't like they're getting all their music for free or something. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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Warren lets just feed the offtopic crap here..... Lets see the music industry as a whole sold 5.1% less CDs in 2001 than they did in 2000. Hrmm did they happen to take into account howmany more music DVDs were bought? Also, I believe most business had a struggle last year, especially late in the year, so 5.1% down on one product isn't really that bad Anyway back to topic, warren get back to work. |
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CD sales were up 5% in the UK last year, bucking the worldwide trend... perhaps someones doing something right somewhere? Ellen Feiss is my stoned goddess
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Cheaper CDs will equal more sales. Simple economics. People don't like paying more than $12-$13US for a CD. The commodity hasn't gotten rarer and more valuable. Quite the opposite. So why the record execs think raising the prices is a good idea is beyond me. Matt, are CDs in the UK relatively cheap? Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
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CD's here are very expensive in comparison to the US, however they have been slowly dropping the price over a period of time, it's about 10-12% cheaper to buy cd's than it was 2 years ago for most titles (double compilation titles for definite) Ellen Feiss is my stoned goddess
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Agreed with Greg #129 ack here we go into another warez & copyright topic? how does this happen? Are we caught in one of those Star Trek time loops where we just have to remember how the ship blows up so we can get out of the loop? Yes if the price of the product represented the value of the product there would be alot more product sold... but that just makes sense to the average joe, not to publishers. |
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AF What's stopping someone from making a photo-realistic fantasy game? Or a sci-fi adventure? Exactly. The topic realism we are talking about here is only regarding graphics. People are confusing photo realistic graphics with games like CS. That's not the point at all. MG Spoken like someone who has never been to a Ren Faire. I've been to a few, had a great time, but you're missing the basic premise. I'm not saying, wouldn't NWN looked better if everyone had dressed like idiots, I'm saying, NWN would have looked better if the LOD was photo realistic. That's all. It's talking only about the graphics. This post made sense in my head.
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#131: Discussing CD prices and why people buy CDs or not isn't a warez or a copyright issue. Liken it more to if the game Deer Hunter for PS2 (theoretical) was $60, for example. The game is too expensive and not really a good game to begin with, so you wouldn't buy it for those reasons. Warezing it isn't even an issue. Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
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Since we're now talking about warez again, there's an ad in the latest Game Developer magazine for Sony's SecuROM copy-protection technology. Did you know that SecuROM makes "internet piracy and reverse engineering attempts practically useless"? Wow! All games should have SecuROM! It really really works. Just listen to this satisfied SecuROM customer testimonial: "Thanks to SecuROM, our game was on ShareReactor the day it was in stores, instead of a couple of days before! Thanks SecuROM!" --Biowair, developer of hit RPG title Chests-a-Plenty. "Hey, uh, hey ladies. My name is John McGuirk. I am a, uh, professional soccer coach at the, uh, elementary school level, and I, uh, own a nice car. Though I do not currently have legal access to it. Uh, as you can see, I used to be in good shape, and uh, in the last two years I have successfully completed four out of five rehab programs. The kind of woman I'm interested in is the one, uh, I guess, who's still watching this video."
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Greg: The game is too expensive and not really a good game to begin with, so you wouldn't buy it for those reasons. Warezing it isn't even an issue. heheh Warren should like that statement... It's still stealing even if you wouldn't have bought it. However, if the game had been $30 instead it would be worth it and anyone curious would buy it. So the ablity to minimize the stealing is purely in the dev/publisher's hands. you know what I just realized, I'm doing exactly what I was complaining about - feeding the off topic. ***** I still believe photo realistic shouldn't be the goal, but believablity should be. Graphics aren't the game, they are the shinny bit that catches our attention so we notice how great the game is. |
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#135: You read my comment wrong. I didn't say it was OK to warez, I meant that the game either isn't worth warezing or can't be warezed. Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
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Caryn I almost hate to ask, but what exactly is in that bottle? I don't think it's Brisk. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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Let's see-- Post 137 Did someone mention warez? "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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What's stopping someone from making a photo-realistic fantasy game? Or a sci-fi adventure? Wouldn't photo-realistic fantasy/sci-fi by it's very nature be a distorted view of reality? Lets see the music industry as a whole sold 5.1% less CDs in 2001 than they did in 2000. Hrmm did they happen to take into account howmany more music DVDs were bought? Pure CD sales doesn't make a great indicator anyway. Break down the drops per genre and things would look a bit different (think about what the hardcore downloads taste tend to be) |
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#86 Warren Marshall Well, since we're doing a high speed action game it doesn't really matter that in our game. We have some nice animations, but if they're not the best, does it really matter all that much? I was talking more from a single player point of view. Hmmm... Even in a pure action game canned animations or lack of animation when appropriate can get old. If someone has the exact same death or pain animation, I believe the game will become tedious sooner. If a player pivots in place without appropriate foot movement, it is rather jarring. Why doesn't anyone ever fall down from an impact and then struggle back to their feet? I think this would be cool. It might slow down the frantic pace of some of these games, but I see this as a good thing. I agree that a single player game benefits much more from this kind of attention to detail in the setting and characters, but even faster paced games could be improved. I've just dinged up...in a bad way.
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think about what the hardcore downloads taste tend to be It tends to be music that is hard to get in north america, and music the RIAA probably doesn't make much money off anyway. The "hardcore downloads" aren't looking for britney spears and such, they're looking for songs that are hard to find, electronica and such. Besides I'm willing to bet these hardcore people don't make up for all the 14 year olds who do download britney spears and n'sync, who are also selling the most cd's. The RIAA isn't really losing much money off downloads (if any, I'm willing to bet it does help) but I can see in the long run downloading will kill them off, in another 30 years or so when the current generation is used to downloading and then their kids start, nobody will be interested in buying the cd's (or whatever physical format there is) unless they're extremely affordable. The RIAA better get on the ball and start offering real downloads for a good price, cause I really don't think they'll be able to lobby, and bully their way out of this. Welcome to the new music revolution, please arm yourself with your favourite P2P file swapping program! ooohh floor pie!
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Russ FYI, death animations are a non issue for us. Our Karma physics system "rag dolls" the dead bodies into the level so they react perfectly (and differently) every time ... "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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Why doesn't anyone ever fall down from an impact and then struggle back to their feet? this sort of thing is bad in game design, you don't want to take control away from the player, and if the player has to wait for his/her character to 'get up' (or whatever) the player feels their not in control and any suspension of disbelief can be broken. Also it punishes the player for getting hit, more so than just losing life, the player is helpless getting up and likely to be shot again. Now from the view of AI character doing this sort of thing that would be very cool and would add to gameplay immensely, but it's not something you'd want the player to experience. ooohh floor pie!
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#111 AnalFissure - Neither end of the spectrum has any more or any less value, entertainment, or fun inherent to them. I never claimed that one was more fun than the other. Not at all. #119 "Selladan" - As with the sounds of guns, graphics are about a "suspension of disbelief". I find that graphics don't influence my suspension of disbelief so much as world detail. If a world is detailed, it's believable. A game can have realistic graphics all it wants, but that in and of itself will not create suspension of disbelief. I find that having believable characters and good voice acting influences my suspension of disbelief more. Compare, for example, Final Fantasy 7, and Final Fantasy 8. I loved FF7, and when I play it, I just get completely lost in the game. FF8 did nothing for me. I found it tedious, boring, and uninteresting. Yet FF8 tried to approach the realistic graphics. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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TheTrunkDr. Exactly. These things sound good on paper, but something like "getting knocked down/getting up" would never work in a game like UT. You'd be better off killing yourself with a rocket and respawning. I don't even agree about single player ... knock an AI down and it has to get up. Great. Now it's helpless and you drill it while it stands up so it's dead before it's up to one knee. The game just became too easy. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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Warren I almost hate to ask, but what exactly is in that bottle? From the crazed look in her eyes, I'm guessing something to bring her down from the E-induced spirit walk. I don't even agree about single player ... knock an AI down and it has to get up. Great. Now it's helpless and you drill it while it stands up so it's dead before it's up to one knee. The game just became too easy. Yeah, JKII's force push/pull was a terrible idea! He's a squish-headed hippy. That's all there is to it.
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Bailey Yeah, JKII's force push/pull was a terrible idea! You have to admit it made all the non-jedi characters too easy to take down. Nothing can kill the Grimace
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Warren FYI, death animations are a non issue for us. Our Karma physics system "rag dolls" the dead bodies into the level so they react perfectly (and differently) every time ... Good. I am looking forward to seeing this in action. Are there any preview movies out showing this technology? I haven't been following action games as much lately so I may have missed it. As far as getting knocked down in games, I agree it would be problematic in many cases for fast paced games as they exist now. If a game had a slower, more stealthy pace I think it would be okay. I think it might be good in a team game if one of your buddies got knocked down that you and your teammates would try to protect him by drawing fire away or dragging him to safety. In any case, anytime a new capability gets added to games it will necessarily force people to play a different way. Don't just think of how it would be to add something like this to UT or Quake. That's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about games that are designed from the beginning to incorporate these changes and make sure gameplay isn't negatively affected by the change. I've just dinged up...in a bad way.
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It's shown in movies whenever someone dies ... there's no dedicated, "Look at the karma!", movie though. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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I don't think ragdoll stuff would really fit anywhere other than death. Maybe if a bot got thrown from an explosion, that might be cool. But you never ever want to take control away from the player, ever. It's a good way to annoy them at best, chase them off at worst. Sounds good in theory, but any game I've ever played where they take away the ability to control my character in the middle of the game is a real bitch. The only time it's okay to take control away is for a full cutscene or dialog or something. But even that can be annoying. Hell, even the knockdown in MDK2 sucked a lot of ass. Even in a slow paced game, having your control hijacked sucks the big one. It might be an okay thing to use for things you are looking at while playing (Bots, NPCs, deaths), but certainly not for your character itself. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Nova Z, I think you're making way too much of this. The fact is, control is taken from the player all the time. If you die, you lost control. Level loads, you lost control. Don't have save anywhere? You lost control. I've already played other games such as MOH and Everquest where control is briefly lost during combat upon being hit. It didn't break the game then so I seriously doubt being knocked down for a couple seconds would do it either. In fact, I think the only time it would seriously hurt you would be in a fast paced deathmatch game in which nobody is looking out for you and the fighting is at close quarters. This illusion that you have total control in a game is nonsense. I've just dinged up...in a bad way.
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