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The Development Bomb
July 31st 2002, 21:29 CEST by Talion Over the years, the time required to develop an action computer game (and other types as well, but the action genre is easiest to trace back) has steadily increased. In the side-scroller days, making a game took a few months. Now it takes a few years. We all know this, but the question must be raised: how long will it take in 2005? 2010? In 1968 Paul Ehrlich wrote The Population Bomb, predicting that overpopulation would make life miserable in the 1980s and untenable in the 1990s. Well, that didn't happen. Now it serves to warn us about extrapolating from current trends. However, the book failed in its predictions not in terms of the population increases but in other areas. Ehrlich did not anticipate that agricultural advances would cause a food increase that outstripped the population increase. Enough about Ehrlich. Games take a long time to make. That's a fact we all understand. However, they have been taking longer and longer. Max Payne took four years, DNF is taking heaven knows how long, and it looks like Doom III will take four years (starting its development after Quake 3's release, though the content developers did work on Q3:TA for a while). TF2 is MIA, and if George Broussard (or was it Scott Miller, can't remember) is to be believed, Valve is secretly working on Half-Life II. Whatever they're doing, it's taking a long time. OK, so it takes 4 years to make a good action game. In the past it didn't take four years. Go back far enough and it took four months. Now go forward five or ten years. Now how long does it take? If I was actually willing to do any research for a PC topic, which I am not, I would graph the trend and use that to make a guess. Since research is out, I will pull a number of out my lazy bum and say we could be looking at 6 or 8 year development times. Could this be? Maybe, but it seems ridiculous. The economics of 4 year development cycles are bad enough. 8 years is when it becomes a philanthropic rather than capitalistic endevour. Where and how will the trend halt? According to the lovable 3DR tag team, it takes 4 years to make a Great Game, and since everyone seems to be doing it we'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Doesn't the 4 year number stem from the need to outdo the previous generation of games? How will 3DR outdo themselves for Duke 5 or whatever they end up doing? How many years will it take? Naturally there are exceptions to this rule. American McGee's Alice took about a year to develop. Development time figures are hard to get and as I said I'm busting my butt here, but I'm sure there are other quick-to-market FPS. However, they remain exceptions, and the A-list companies continue to lengthen their development cycles. Where will it end? |
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re: GTA3 and degrees of freedom A major part of the art of computer games is precisely creating the illusion of freedom. Even (some) text adventures -- where freedom is truly, severely limited -- were good at this. I'm using "freedom" in the sense of possible actions, and possible outcomes. Much as with text adventures, for most game types the developer must explicitly provide for each action and each outcome. Sure, in an FPS you can fire that rifle anywhere, and anyone can die, but both "fire rifle" and "die" are premade. The SimWhatevers and the like are different, in that the game provides a universe with rules, and the results are much more variable (although still within certain parameters). Theoretically, MMOGs (could) have much more varied gameplay/outcomes, but so far have failed to do so in interesting ways. It remains to be seen whether experiments like Entropia truly can develop an interesting in-game economy, ecology, etc. I think MMOGs have the best shot at this because the cumulative behaviour of thousands of people could lead to chaos-like dynamics. But that takes a whole other level of balancing. loop this (also in high-res)
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/me merely points out that Tribes was multiplayer Terra Nova, that System Shock outdid Doom and Duke3d in 2.5d interactivity (and had a storyline), that FLY was a great flight sim and that Thief broke new FPS ground. Some people just dont like those games, some people dont get them, much like some people dont like steak and some people prefer ribeye to filet mignon. Thems the breaks, but Looking Glass and irrational games made damn fine games that didnt sit in the mainstream mold. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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duality: That sure as hell sounds like you're looking down upon his practice, by comparing his experience to how others experienced it the way it was meant to be. perhaps, but what i was trying to get at is that maybe he was missing the point. maybe if he'd played through according to Spector' or whoever's original vision he'd have enjoyed the experience and the sense of achievement. Or maybe he wouldn't. We, and more imprtantly, Nova Z, will never know. But fuck it, he enjoyed himself and degrading weapons is one gameplay facet that Warren Spector will probably never explore again, for better or worse. Your Friend: Yeah but even still, all the missions pretty much came down to kill some guy. Use a car, or guns. Don't lie. There was a broader range of mission types than that. OK, so by the end you'd probably experienced at least two missions of each type but there was more variety there than you're giving credit for. And I don't know about anyone else, but I rarely did two missions in a row. After every mission (all of which lasted what ? five minutes tops ?), I tended to save the game, spend maybe 30/35/60 mins. fucking around, killing people, stealing cars, trying to complete the RC challenges, unique jumps etc. and then go and do something else (in the 'real world'). There was plenty to do apart from the missions, so even if you got three missions that were almost identical in a row, you still wouldn't find it repetitive because you'd probably spend half an hour trying to steal an FBI car in between anyway. As for you freedom point.. yeah sure, dressing up as a mafia guy would've been fantastic and really free-feeling (ahem). But you couldn't. That's why we say 'relative freedom' and 'reasonably open-ended' instead of absolutely positively true to life. I'm sure someone somewhere would complain that you couldn't pick which French designhouse created the suit that you stole from the mafia chappy in your revisited version of GTA3, but that's just proves the old saying: you can't please all of the people all of the time. Until you can, I'll just continue to get a kick out of mugging grannies and killing rastafarians. And playing GTA3. Answer this jafd...Suppose a game comes out that doesn't have save anywhere. Someone makes a non-official save anywhere patch. Do you APPLY IT or do you EXPERIENCE THE FULLNESS OF THE GAME? Yeah that's what I thought you hypocritical gasbag. I ain't jafd but... well, it depends on the game and how well the 'save nowhere' thing was implemented. Though I do seem to remember that until, like, maybe ten years ago the majority of games didn't have a save function of any description. You basically started from the start each and every time. Cliff: I think MMOGs have the best shot at this because the cumulative behaviour of thousands of people could lead to chaos-like dynamics. MMOGs could do that now, if people would work as part of a true (albeit virtual) community, instead of basically being out for themselves. Like forming towns, with civilian armies to defend them, a council etc. Or maybe they do already, I don't know much about MMOGs. Presumably they're limited by the software, but surely if people had the wherewithall to sort themselves out they could behave 'responsibly' in a virtual world ? I mean, however cynical you are of the real world, you have to admit that in general (and within the constraints and parameters of their own cultures) people generally get on with one another. When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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Or to put it another way: how many missions did you come across in GTA3 that involved bumping a bloke out of an ambulance and then driving over his body will he was dead ? When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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First thing I did when I played doom. Went up and down the stairs, over and over again. iamelectro
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I'm not actually whining. I was happy they included the option in game, and I played it that way due to the opinion of people whose gaming tastes I trust. I just don't see the problem with playing a game a different way than intended if it results in the end player enjoying the game more than they would have otherwise. Wait you never even tried it the other way? Had they told you it was a non-issue with the maintenance skill (which both decreases the time it takes to degrade and increases how well the maintenance tools work). |
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They just said that the weapon degredation sucked, and to play without it. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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would you have played any different? Got distracted mid-thought there |
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What do you mean? "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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I just don't see the problem with playing a game a different way than intended if it results in the end player enjoying the game more than they would have otherwise. How do you know you wouldn't have? I fail to see how managing a third resource on top of health and ammo, is "unfun." What, it's too much challenge? The addition of a third variable makes your WORLD FALL APART??? Imagine playing Deus Ex for the first time, after setting yourself up with a third of the augs from the first level. Or, a whole bunch of ammo. Or, whatever. Would it still be fun? Sure. Would it be as fun? Well, I guess if skimming a third off the game and throwing in the garbage is "fun", there you go. Fact is, Nova, you blew through the game in like 10 hours, you never had to make very difficult decisions on how to spend your skill points ("Should I take Maintenance or Endurance?" Durr, bluh, duh), and every single time you found a weapon pick up in the game, you merely emptied it of ammunition, tossed it aside, and moved on, without experiencing any significant thrill of discovery. Right! Because the point of a journey is merely to arrive. Right? next topic: "My Dinner With Andre: Movie About Two Guys And A Table, That's It" This conversation is stupid and has nothing to do with gaming. You know why people don't like weapon degradation? Four words. Neophobia. Oldthink. |
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They just said that the weapon degredation sucked, and to play without it. "Dude! Foreplay sucks. Just stick it in. Oh, and if she's a virgin, first push, do it really hard, it'll hurt less. Just like ripping off a Band-Aid, everyone knows that!" would you have played any different? What do you mean? You'll never know. For the sake of convenience, you've pissed away a significant chunk of one of the most compelling gaming experiences available. Oh, but you had "more fun" and "less suck," right? |
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For the sake of convenience, you've pissed away a significant chunk of one of the most compelling gaming experiences available. To you. Doesn't mean it actually was, or was not. If it isn't compelling to Nova, and disabling it improves the overall experience for him, why on earth are you having this conversation? I believe I can fly......urk.
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He doesn't know that it improved the overall experience. That's the point. |
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Who gives a fuck? I believe I can fly......urk.
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You know, the deeper I get in to my work, the more I appreciate short, easy to finish games. Long games usually end up unfinished and in my pile. Hell, it took me months just to finish SS2. I would rather have the experience of interacting with the story and world that was given to me, rather than having to burn 20 minutes backtracking trying to find a place to get ammo. I fail to see how extending the game by 5 or 10 hours because of backtracking, fighting hand to hand, needing health, and micromanaging skill points makes it more fun. Adding a third variable doesn't make the world fall apart, it just stands between me and finishing the game. I don't like resource management. I don't like playing for 2 hours only to find that I screwed up on my points allocation and have to reload an old save to make sure I have what's needed. I don't like wasted gaming time. One could wonder; I've heard people bitching and whining about the end level of SS2, and how it was suck and blah blah blah. The organic level. I didn't have any problem with it... In fact, I enjoyed it just the same as the rest of the game. Perhaps people didn't enjoy it because the limits placed on them made getting through to the end chamber too difficult? "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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What do you mean? What I mean is if they'd told you the skills in the game would itself take care of the problem of weapon degradation with out the patch, would you have played with it on (or turned down a bit*) and just used those skills? *This is my personal pic for dealing with it. The degradation rate is just to radical even with full maintenance (it just feels like it wasn't balanced as well as it should have been), but at the same time I don't want that skill to be totally useless. |
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He doesn't know that it improved the overall experience. And some people think that game systems that aren't save-anywhere improve the overall experience. So what's your fucking point, pinhead? |
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Listen to that engine roar! "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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hittin on all cylinders, yep yep yep. finely tuned. "Everyone knows the best way to live life is to troll messageboards." --Warren Marshall
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None, I trust my friends' opinions. I'd have done it anyway methinks. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with YF here. Jafd, you'd take a save anywhere patch on a game with limited saves without a second thought. This is the exact same thing, so kindly fuck you. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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jafd, you'd take a save anywhere patch on a game with limited saves without a second thought. Whatever the fuck you're talking about, it isn't what I am. |
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None, I trust my friends' opinions. I'd have done it anyway methinks. Ehh no big deal, tho if you ever play again try it with it turned down instead. It really does add a lot especialy if you play as a 'pure' marine chracter (which is really the only reason it's there anyway). One other question you hate games that use skill/inventory management as a gameplay feature, so why even bother with them to begin with? A game isn't going to appeal to every one no matter how many optional gameplay features is has. In fact too many options greatly changes the gameplay (SS2 bascily becomes a FPS with the ubermensch cheat to give full skills, only it's a rather dull FSP since it wasn't design as a pure shooter). |
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Mathematicians like their games NP-hard or harder. Computer games offer the full spectrum -- from twitchy but mindless Space Invaders, to the PSPACE-complete Sokoban. I tend to like games that offer a mix -- such as DX or SS2. The Knapsack Problem is basic resource management -- something people can enjoy intuitively optimizing, but which is mathematically NP-complete. Minesweeper is NP-complete as well. I'm not goofing off, I'm doing advanced math! The above brought to you by following geeky links from today's prime number news and my headache. Plus being bored. Although jafd's style is not always the gentlest, I don't think the point was "Nova, you shouldn't have!" but that Nova may unwittingly have deprived himself of some fun. I wouldn't presume to tell people what to do, but Nova, next time why not try the game as designed first? loop this (also in high-res)
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I think he covered that. He asked his friends about it, friends whose opinions on games he trusts, and they told him it sucked. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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Oh, the joys of failing to reload the page ages before responding. jafd -- the save anywhere thing -- true? Do you feel every game should have save anywhere, or that every game should have an option or patch providing that? loop this (also in high-res)
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Yeah, if resource management isn't his thing, then it isn't his thing. I would say it's less a matter of whose opinions you "trust" (which makes it sound like feature X sucking or not is an objective fact) than of whose opinions you tend to agree with. I trust Morn but I'm not going to take his pr0n recommendations... loop this (also in high-res)
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One other question you hate games that use skill/inventory management as a gameplay feature, so why even bother with them to begin with? I don't really hate it. It's just annoying when it gets in the way. Deus Ex would have annoyed me if any of the augs had been truly useful. As it is, I rarely used the augs, except for maybe the drone. Plus in Deus Ex, I was able to hoard points, and only use them when needed, because I knew exactly what burning some points in to a skill would do, since it told me. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Deus Ex would have annoyed me if any of the augs had been truly useful. As it is, I rarely used the augs, except for maybe the drone. Plus in Deus Ex, I was able to hoard points, and only use them when needed, because I knew exactly what burning some points in to a skill would do, since it told me. I'll agree th skills in ss2 should have better said what they do (weapon skills really should have told you what weapons you could use with that skill, and I only figured out the maintenance skill increased the degredation time by cheating after I'd already finished the game). I would have like the augs in Deus Ex to be more usefull then they where (just as long as there was never a situation where you needed a select aug with no other option). |
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Well, supposedly they are going over that with a fine tooth comb for DX2. They are unifying skills and augs, so there aren't two separate bunches. Which is a great idea, IMO. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Do you feel every game should have save anywhere, or that every game should have an option or patch providing that? It's a "political" thing. It doesn't matter how well-balanced or how compelling limited saves (or uniquely limted resources) are made; there's always going to be some talentless chump / impatient wanker / busy professional who is gonna pitch a tantrum over it. The only way to forestall the (significant) impact the lack of saving would have on the word of mouth for a game, is to include an "off switch" from the get-go. None-1a hit it on the head before: the balancing in SS2 was ambitious and, ultimately, flawed. I don't think it was so bad that it calls for outright removal (thus utterly fucking up the balance in other parts of the game), but, then again, I have a personal fetish for meeting challenges and overcoming them. Some people just like to hurry up and get to the next endorphin-generating sequence as fast as possible. You know, whatever. Everything is all about the endorphins and imprinting anyway. Whether or not limiting saves makes for more "fun" is an entirely different discussion, one which I'd rather scratch my eyes out than get involved with. |
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Imprinting? That explains my fixation on SS1, then. loop this (also in high-res)
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Oh my fucking god! And this thread has devolved into yet another PC cliche! Save anywhere is for warezing neuters. Limited saves are for nazi fuckmonkeys. "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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Shut your warez-hole. Just like the cool kids, I have chosen to incorporate a cute kitty as my icon. Wuv.
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Pie your hole shut? "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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Beating you with a pie. The pie is made of bricks. Or more accurately, a brick. Not much of a pie, really, except for this delightfully light, golden, flakey crust*. * Note - There is no crust. Just like the cool kids, I have chosen to incorporate a cute kitty as my icon. Wuv.
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"If some chick tried to kick my ass, I'd be, like, 'hey, you, missy... get your bitch ass in the kitchen and make me some pie!'" "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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Presumably they're limited by the software, but surely if people had the wherewithall to sort themselves out they could behave 'responsibly' in a virtual world ? I mean, however cynical you are of the real world, you have to admit that in general (and within the constraints and parameters of their own cultures) people generally get on with one another. This is already going on to a fair degree, there's tons of guilds that are organized and work together admirably well... the problem is there's enough lack of accountability an online world like this that the truly antisocial types come out of the woodwork, and it doesn't take a lot of them to disrupt things badly. The worst the company maintaining the product can do is ban them, and really all that does is get them to spend another $30 or whatever for a new account so they can gleefully continue harassing the 90% of players who just want to go adventure with their friends. |
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Bailey is...BAT CAT!! "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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Nova Z: I would rather have the experience of interacting with the story and world that was given to me, rather than having to burn 20 minutes backtracking trying to find a place to get ammo. I fail to see how extending the game by 5 or 10 hours because of backtracking, fighting hand to hand, needing health, and micromanaging skill points makes it more fun. It just sounds to me as if games like Deus Ex and System Shock aren't your bag, man. You don't seem to like some of their main gameplay features or the rules imposed by their game world. In which case you probably shouldn't play them :P When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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Arguing about SS2 is so 1996. Oh, and let's all stand in a circle and laugh at YF! He likes Myst! !quote 24 |
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SS2 has no thong gun. Need I continue? No. **THUPT** Security Guard: "How about some ID there, buddy?"
Me w/thong gun: "How about a sequin thong? ... *THUPT* ... " Security Guard: "Forget the ID, point me to a dancing pole!" |
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---Nitpick to follow--- Nova: Look at a game like heavy gear, or mechwarrior. Both those games have options, in the menus, for invincibility, unlimited ammo, and the ability to ignore heat (in MW). Why do you think they did that? Personally, I never turned on any of those options when I played, because I didn't feel the need. But if I *had* reached a part I couldn't get past without cheating, I like the fact that the options were there to help me out. If you turned of heat or damage (in MW2), you wouldn't unlock the next mission. So you couldn't progress in the game with the "cheats" on. ---End of nitpick--- Wheelie doesn't care about teh funnay. He's a nihilist.
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Meh, like I said, I'd never tried. Deadlock, currently, SS2 and Deus Ex are the best two games I have ever played on the PC. "'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
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In MW4, it has no complaints about advancing the missions ad infinitum with all the cheats turned on. Just like the cool kids, I have chosen to incorporate a cute kitty as my icon. Wuv.
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Yeah but I did. I couldn't pass the second mission with that AWFUL voice-acting and cartoony mechs. Give me the stiff, realistic steel girder and piston movement, none of this bendy bouncy shit. Oh, and save some budget for PROFESSIONAL VOICE ACTING, thanks. Sad that MW3, the best of the lot, doesn't work in XP. I said ve're going to cut off your CHONSON!
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Really? I've got MW3 working flawlessly in XP. So. There. Understand? Good. Play! -- Hatsumi-Sensei
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it wont install in xp, works fine if you copy an installed folder over well, bar that it drags the processor to a shuddering halt trying to read from the cd, doesnt save your music settings ( so it wont stream music from teh cd) and randomly has issues trying to find the next mission for you. other than that, its great. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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Really? I was able to install, play, and finish Both the Single Player Campaign and Pirate's Moon without any problems. Understand? Good. Play! -- Hatsumi-Sensei
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Commandos had a similar problem, but it was reversed. It would not install on Windows 2000, but it would install on XP. Copy the installed folder from the XP machine to the W2k machine, and the game would run on W2k. Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
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I'll second Squeaky's claim--MW3 runs without a hitch on my XP box. "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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