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The Development Bomb
July 31st 2002, 21:29 CEST by Talion Over the years, the time required to develop an action computer game (and other types as well, but the action genre is easiest to trace back) has steadily increased. In the side-scroller days, making a game took a few months. Now it takes a few years. We all know this, but the question must be raised: how long will it take in 2005? 2010? In 1968 Paul Ehrlich wrote The Population Bomb, predicting that overpopulation would make life miserable in the 1980s and untenable in the 1990s. Well, that didn't happen. Now it serves to warn us about extrapolating from current trends. However, the book failed in its predictions not in terms of the population increases but in other areas. Ehrlich did not anticipate that agricultural advances would cause a food increase that outstripped the population increase. Enough about Ehrlich. Games take a long time to make. That's a fact we all understand. However, they have been taking longer and longer. Max Payne took four years, DNF is taking heaven knows how long, and it looks like Doom III will take four years (starting its development after Quake 3's release, though the content developers did work on Q3:TA for a while). TF2 is MIA, and if George Broussard (or was it Scott Miller, can't remember) is to be believed, Valve is secretly working on Half-Life II. Whatever they're doing, it's taking a long time. OK, so it takes 4 years to make a good action game. In the past it didn't take four years. Go back far enough and it took four months. Now go forward five or ten years. Now how long does it take? If I was actually willing to do any research for a PC topic, which I am not, I would graph the trend and use that to make a guess. Since research is out, I will pull a number of out my lazy bum and say we could be looking at 6 or 8 year development times. Could this be? Maybe, but it seems ridiculous. The economics of 4 year development cycles are bad enough. 8 years is when it becomes a philanthropic rather than capitalistic endevour. Where and how will the trend halt? According to the lovable 3DR tag team, it takes 4 years to make a Great Game, and since everyone seems to be doing it we'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Doesn't the 4 year number stem from the need to outdo the previous generation of games? How will 3DR outdo themselves for Duke 5 or whatever they end up doing? How many years will it take? Naturally there are exceptions to this rule. American McGee's Alice took about a year to develop. Development time figures are hard to get and as I said I'm busting my butt here, but I'm sure there are other quick-to-market FPS. However, they remain exceptions, and the A-list companies continue to lengthen their development cycles. Where will it end? |
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Topic: The Development Bomb
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Warren: I wasn't talking about getting engrossed in something - I get engrossed in things all of the time, regardless of how realistic they are. Books, movies, computer games. I just hate this notion that you play Halflife, for example, and you're somehow 'there', you 'are' Gordon Freeman, especially when that's the criteria by which you judge a game's worth. 'Hmmmm, I don't *feel* as if half of my face has just been blown off, this game isn't worth shit'. Which seems to be to be what Matt was getting at (bearing in mind that he didn't like Halo because he wasn't immersed, he just felt like some guy in a battle suit. Which is what he was, so where does that leave his whole theory of immersion, huh ?). Maybe I just take people too literally ? Who knows, who cares and who'll remember anyway ? When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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I think for most people, immersed == engrossed. You're into what's happening, you're feeling fear, etc. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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#110 by Mank It's hard to concieve the notion that design documents dont hold more weight than you seem to indicate. Just to be clear on this, IMO planning is worth it's weight in gold. But I see the actual process of planning (thinking everything through) as more valuable than the plan itself. Things change and you simply can't anticipate every contingency and see every dependency, so it's better to try to adapt and control that change instead of closing your eyes and plowing into the wrong direction since "this was what we wrote down into the plan 2 years ago". And there's loads of must have design documents that are extremely useful, good examples would be all the mapping bible stuff, where people agree on the rules on how everyone is making the game and document things like doorway widths, target room heights, texture usage per map etc. Stuff like that rarely undergoes massive changes. However, I don't believe that you could have a single document that outlines the game so throughly and with such detail, that then any team could just execute it. Another thing that doesnt make a lot of sense, is the fact the the video game market is supposedly making money hand over fist, and damn near eclipsing the movie industry in terms of sales. Yet we continue to see developer houses shut down, and people still espouse the relative safety of sticking with sequels. Where is all of this friggin money going? The differences between the movie industry and the gaming industry aside, it just seems that with this much friggin money being made, one would think that we'd be seeing a lot more experimentation where gametypes and gameplay are concerned, or at least attempts to reproduce those things that work(Half Life). I think nowadays 10% of the games get 90% of the profits, and 50% of the games never break even. So if you don't get to the top-ten, then the chances are that your dev studio will be hurting. If you consider what a game costs to make, and then consider that it's a one out of ten chance to get a good return of investment, it's no wonder that publishers want to play it safe. I'd want to do that too if it was my money riding on the game :-) Does this all fall back to the laps of the evil publishers and marketing types? It's just hard to imagine with this much money being made that there isnt more innovation or creativity being funded that would allow someone to make that next Half Life...I dunno...meh. I'd like to get back to the "People are sheep" thing... someone out there is buying these top ten games. People vote with their money, and it looks like there's a lot of people voting for more sequels. Also, when talking about "next Half-Life" I think pretty much every developer is trying to be the next HL. It's just that making games is hard :-) |
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Darkseid, Hell, Half Life, System Shock 2, Thief and Deus Ex all rank up there imho on the pinacle of first person gaming when it comes to `totality`. I didn't think Hell was that good of a game, actually. Certainly not among that company to be sure. I beat the internet. The end guy is hard.
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It's interesting how some developers take Petri's perspective "planning is good" and others adopt the "don't bother planning too far ahead, as it'll get all hacked up and redesigned by the second month in". Mind you, I've never bothered keeping track of which developer makes more successful game, but I bet it'd be enlightening. They're not piss-drinking contests so much as attempts to drink as much piss as possible. There are no prizes involved, this is just a way of life for the participants.
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Would you rather have an FPS where everyone stood still with said guns on said maps trying to kill each other? Yay, first person Scorched Earth! That would rock! (Okay, not really). I'm not sure Half-Life would get all the credit it does if it weren't for Counterstrike. Basically they managed, through no work on their part, to get the most popular multi-player FPS ever to go along with their already successful single player game. It's kept the original on the shelves a lot longer than it would've been otherwise. |
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I don't even take CS into account when talking about Half-Life. If I *were* to consider it, it would be as a blight on the game's otherwise stellar reputation. -chris |
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Stick your nose any higher and it's likely to get clipped by a passing jetliner. Current market value of the Max Payne IP according to a comparison of the market capitalization of Take Two pre- and post- sale: approx. -$185,000,000.
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You know, I've never played a second of Counterstrike. Haven't wanted to, for that matter. Arizona Diamondbacks 2001 World Series Champions
"It's all about positioning! So assume the position!" JMCDaveL |
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Matthew - I don't think there's any arrogance in that statement... I just hate the mod, and the 400 billion clones it inspired. :P I respect abilities of the folks behind it, and obviously they hit on something that the mass market likes. And for that: more power to 'em. I'd have gone ahead with it, too. But as a side effect, they've filled gaming up for the past two years with tactical military sims, and that's very annoying. -chris |
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I lost a lot of respect for the folks behind it when they started handing out unblockable wall hacks to their buddies in high-profile clans. My name is Don Don
I am pretty Elephant Love me well! |
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Warren Marshall: I think for most people, immersed == engrossed. You're into what's happening, you're feeling fear, etc. Ohm I understand the link between immesed and engrossed and that they are sometimes the same thing (or at least, used interchangeably, even though they aren't the same thing). Like I said, I'm probably just taking Matt too literally. But that said, I do find it odd that he finds it hard to get engrossed in a game that he can't 'relate' to. As for Counterstrike keeping HalfLife alive... I don't know about that. Sure, it's popular, possibly the most popular mod ever, but I don't think it's singlehandedly kept Half Life on the shelves. Not everyone plays multiplayer - the majority of gamers don't. When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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Not everyone plays multiplayer True, but I bet by now it would've been a bargain-bin game, instead of still getting premier shelf space. Thanks to CS they cleaned up the multiplayer crowd after they'd already gone through the single-player market like a money-Hoover. |
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#123 by Shadarr Basically they managed, through no work on their part, to get the most popular multi-player FPS ever to go along with their already successful single player game. As far as I know, Valve has put loads and loads of effort into making sure the game is easy to mod, as well as supporting the user community, releasing updates, patching issues and helping people out. |
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Halo is my favorite FPS because I enjoyed the combat so much. The recharging shield, weapon limits, and the AI combined to make it a great experience for me. The music was also excellent. However, and it pains me to say it as a Bungie fan, they dropped the ball on the level design, maybe because of the X-box launch deadline. Whatever the reason, I personally may like playing Halo better but I consider Half-Life the superior game because it delivered rock solid level design, combat, AI, and scripting. System Shock 2 is a great game, but I admire it more than I enjoy playing it. The atmosphere was incredible and the story very effective, but the style of gameplay wasn't really up my alley. The stats and everything were fine. It was the extreme ammunition limitations that I found annoying. I think ultimately SS2 and its spiritual sequel, Deus Ex didn't sell well (admittedly my figures on Deus Ex come from a half-remembered conversation with G.B. or Scott Miller...one of them showed up on #planetcrap ages ago and tossed around some PC Data figures) because the gameplay is slow. Neither are action games. Half-Life, Halo, and what we conventionally think of when we say "FPS" are action games. SS2 and DX have trouble with sales because people expect to be getting a fast-paced FPS and instead find a slow, RPGish sort of game. |
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I have to agree with Petri and disagree with Shadarr. Valve put a HUGE amount of effort into the mod community in terms of their SDK, various mod-team gatherings, pretty decent unofficial support, helping to publicize mods, and so on. Almost every FPS maker throws some mod-ability over the fence these days but Valve put tons more effort than is usual, which partially explains why people are still writing Half-Life mods despite the fact that the engine is really showing its age. Also, Half-Life was hugely successful and influential long before CS was released. Yes, there's some truth to the fact that it would have disappeared sales-wise by now, and there wouldn't be approximately a billion servers listed as 'half-life' servers on GameSpy's master list, but none of that changes what Half-Life accomplished on its own. Having said all that, I have to agree with chris. I hate CounterStrike (I do like SOF2 though, go figure). The only thing I've ever liked about CS, either before or after Valve acquired it was the sound effects. Nice sound effects! Halo does have some unfortunate level design and repetition of levels. |
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Am I the only one who is surprised that Darkseid has played System Shock 3? So there.
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Talion did a wonderful job of explaining how I also feel about System Shock 2. There's a lot to love in that game, but it didn't come together as a great experience for me when playing it. It is a far better game in theory than it is to actually sit down and play it in practice. |
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I imagine you are Bob I just want someone to take the Doom 3 engine and MAKE System Shock 3, preferably Warren Spectors ION team... Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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*shrug* I thought halo sort of beat into you a sense of helplessness, as your marines kept getting slaughtered, and you had to inch your way through a planet full of hostile enemy forces, who could actually get backup. The first few missions give you hope, but when everyone is slaughtered at the central control room, and THEN the flood come out, it's doom doom doom all over. heh. You only live by killing everyone else, and end up alone, very far from home. 2 armadas, long forgotten artifact, unstoppable plague, all dead and gone at the end. Or perhaps that's just me. And MattG, when someone asks "why are video games are so violent?" my answer is not going to be a response about non-violent video games... That's just dodging the question. iamelectro
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#136 Darkseid-D I just want someone to take the Doom 3 engine and MAKE System Shock 3, preferably Warren Spectors ION team... Me too, but give me some ammunition this time for heaven's sake. lots of people: Why are video games so violent? Why are little boys so violent? I know someone who works at a day care center where of course they have no politically incorrect toys like GI Joes or toy guns, but she said a little boy's imagination can make a Barbie doll into a gun, so it hardly matters. |
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So then the obvious next step for game developers is to make a game for girls where you defeat your enemies (called "friends") with passive-aggressiveness, backstabbing, ostracism, and good old fashioned embarassment. |
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There are over 500 player-made modules available for NWN! http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/press_releases/nwn500mods/ Woohooo! I can't wait to play them ALL!!!!! |
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I can't wait till they drop the price to something people with only one job can afford. |
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By then there will probably be about 2 million player-made modules!!! Woohoo!!! Each one better than the last, I'm sure !!!! |
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Gotta delete 'em all! My name is Don Don
I am pretty Elephant Love me well! |
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#120 Petri wrote: I'd like to get back to the "People are sheep" thing... someone out there is buying these top ten games. People vote with their money, and it looks like there's a lot of people voting for more sequels. What really sucks is having to be careful when I bitch about sequels, and at the same time finding myself getting all giddy at the thought of a System Shock 3 being done on the Doom3 engine as DS posted above...gah...hypocrites R me I guess? Bah, either way, I feel pretty comfortable in my hyprocrisy, seeing as how sequels are pretty much the only thing coming out as of late. I also know that if Half Life 2 was announced tomorrow, I'd ...be "so there" in a heartbeat....or sumthin...meh..:/ I just wonder if I'll still be a sheep in George's eyes if I decide to buy DNF once it comes out?...:P Honestly, in my attempts to unjade myself, I've all but quit reading previews, reviews and the like. And buying a game based on the feeling I get as I'm holding the box in my hands is what I used to do prior to becoming involved with Q2. After Quake2, I found myself making comparisons between games that I prolly shouldnt have, rather than judging the game based on its own merits. And yet I still fall into the same trap when I espose the want for a game to rival or match Half Life. I dont know if I've somehow been conditioned to think of games based on comparisons, but judging games based upon thier individual merits has been an uphill battle recently...but I think I'm slowly becoming a better(less jaded) gamer by doing this. ...on the outside looking in, banned by an epiphany at an EB store....
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deadlock What I meant by my comments was that in Halo, I didn't feel as immersed, involved, part of the world, caring about what happens, etc... By the some guy in a battle suit comment, I meant I had no background, no real character to play, it was the same as every other FPS out there immersion wise...I start with a small gun/knife, something happens, I must go kill the something and find bigger guns to kill the bigger somethings... What I liked about HL is I felt I knew Gordon, I knew where he was coming from, I knew who he was by how the scientist reacted to him, what if felt like to be a nameless cog in the scientist empire there. I felt like I was a person in an actual place...not many games can do that. I was highly engrossed in the game, I did feel the fear when I was supposed, jumped and hollered a few times at points... As Warren mentioned, it's a good part imagination. There was not a huge amount of story, but they covered the points that let my brain fill in the rest and everything worked. At least for me. But that said, I do find it odd that he finds it hard to get engrossed in a game that he can't 'relate' to. For me to become engrossed/immersed in a single player game where I play one person, I have to feel I know where that person is coming from, I have to feel I know that person. Then I can understand why certain things happen, why people treat him one way or another, etc. If I'm nameless joe gun fighter, I don't have anything to go off of. With Gordon I knew what he was and where he was coming from, with Sin, for instance, I played a some guy who was a badass...wee. That's the start, then once the character is filled out, I have to understand the environment I'm in. That's why RL type of games work better for me, because I see a building or a gun shoot and I know that's how it's supposed to work. In a fantasy game, I would need those things explained, not just be able to pick up a staff and it shoot magical whatever and know that was right. .......I need to feel at home in the environment to become immersed in said environment. Not to say I can't be taught to feel at home in an abnormal place, just harder for the designers then. This post made sense in my head.
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As per halo you get to hear the marines and whatnot comment you.. "whoah, it's the new mark II" "He's taller than I thought" But they all talk about you like a cyborg, and not a human. iamelectro
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Chris they've filled gaming up for the past two years with tactical military sims, and that's very annoying No, they only did Counterstrike. The me-too developers were responsible for the rest. Do you blame Westwood for every mediocre RTS title? Gonna blame Jet Grind Radio for the upcoming deluge of cel-shaded poop? Shame on you. Current market value of the Max Payne IP according to a comparison of the market capitalization of Take Two pre- and post- sale: approx. -$213,000,000.
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Yes. Shame on me indeed! Making an offhand comment on a message board related to a mod for a four year old game. Next thing you know I'll be eating babies. =) You're right, of course. But I am filled with hate, and Counter-Strike is just such an easy target for my hate... -chris |
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Next thing you know I'll be eating babies. =) With that bitter, jade colored sauce. "It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
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It's magically delicious! My name is Don Don
I am pretty Elephant Love me well! |
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You feel shame, but then you go free. Current market value of the Max Payne IP according to a comparison of the market capitalization of Take Two pre- and post- sale: approx. -$213,000,000.
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Matt: I see what your getting at - I still disagree but variety is the space of life etc. etc. You don't say that you didn't have fun with Halo, so we're not so different you and I, Mr. Perkins. When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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And don't blame CS, I don't blame Valve. I don't even blame the people who made all the cheap knockoffs that flooded the market. I blame the masses of people who play those GODDAMN games. No I never liked CS. The whole "realistic" just acts as a brake on something that is supposed to be a fast and furious genre (imho). And then the countless public servers filled with countless^2 morons who bitch, whine, cheat and act as an ass in general. Blame the masses, they deserve it. They ALWAYS deserve it. "Durr, bluh, shoving mini-snickers in my mouth as fast as mom can buy them." - Bailey
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So there's no bitching, whining, or cheating on your "fast and furious genre" games? My name is Don Don
I am pretty Elephant Love me well! |
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Speaking of cheating, I need a move 'card to hand temporarily' cheat for solitaire. |
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#154 by Bailey Bitch. "This is also gay."
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deadlock You're right, I'm not saying I didn't have with it, I did. I was just saying I didn't feel as involved in the plot/story of the game. And none of us are really that different... This post made sense in my head.
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And don't blame CS, I don't blame Valve. I don't even blame the people who made all the cheap knockoffs that flooded the market. I blame the masses of people who play those GODDAMN games. Why even give it so much thought? I mean, there's plenty of other FPSes to go around. And if the knock-off artists weren't knocking off CS, they'd be knocking off something else just as incompetently. So who cares? Let the tactical military FPS people have their fun, does it honestly hurt you or I? |
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Yes, yes it does. Understand? Good. Play! -- Hatsumi-Sensei
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it burns, oh my god it fucking burns! When they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out ? Will you defend me ? Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right |
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Rogue Leader took less than a year from start to finish. that's a good example that it doesnt always take a hell of a long time to me a hell of a good game. You know, some people say things about ambiguity.
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Particularly when said good game is so goddamn hard that no one bothers to play past the third or fourth level. ;) -chris (actually, I probably just lack skillz) |
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chris, I never made it past the fourth level =) So there.
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Don't forget that 3D Realms is taking their Swee Time (tm). And that is a big point. The 3DR team don't work weekends, they spend less time in the office. But then, every last one of them is giving it 110%. And I think that's the attitude that makes them the developers that they are. |
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Swee Time? Is that like aspartame? "Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios." -The Family Guy |
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Only if the game ships with a "thong gun" will I enjoy it. It's just true. I can see it now.....(warped crosscut fade to game action).... Security Guard: "How about some ID there, buddy?" Me w/thong gun: "How about a sequin thong? ... *THUPT* ... " Security Guard: "Forget the ID, point me to a dancing pole!" Scientist: "I find your purile use of thongs illogical and juvenile." Me w/thong gun: "Wrap your egghead around this sheer thong! ... *THUPT*..." Scientist: "I feel the need to dance on this lab table for you.." Okay, I laughed at least once typing it. |
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3D Realms owes me nothing. |
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