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Mankind is doomed!
April 26th 2000, 17:11 CEST by morn Imagine this: a massive multiplayer game gets released and is available in the stores and isn't even playable. Imagine the same game remains in the same state for a couple of months, with barely any of the customers who paid for the game even being able to connect to the game's servers. Imagine the game still barely resembles anything that has been advertised by the developer and the publisher almost one and a half years after its release. A gamer's worst nightmare? No. It's happened, and the game's title is Mankind. Space. The final frontier. These are voyages of French developer Vibes, on its continuing mission to discover new ideas and develop new games, to explore strange new genres, and to boldly go where no man, no one, has ever gone before: creating a massive multiplayer space conquest game in a persistant universe spanning over nine million planets. Thus was born the premise of Mankind. "What a great idea!" thought little Morn and ordered a copy of his game in early 1999. Big tears did he cry when he installed the game only to realize that the account creation section on the Mankind's webpage was unavailable, with only a message from the Vibes (the developer), telling him to wait a couple of days while they were fixing the game. At least they promised that his 12 month license that came with the boxed game wouldn't start until they had fixed all the bugs -- so all was good. Or wasn't it? A couple of months later little Morn received word from Vibes that the highly anticipated patch had been released on Mankind's website, that the game was now in full operation and that the 12 month license would now commence. So he quickly reinstalled the game, fired up his browser, and downloaded the patch, giddy like a schoolboy in anticipation. And yes, his heart started bumping a little faster when the game actually -- for the first time ever since Morn had bought it -- connected to its server! It greeted him with a wonderful intro screen and some powerful welcome fanfares, making him get all excited about his nearing career as the ruthless leader of a mighty space empire, leaving a trail of death and destruction behind him on the planets of his enemies. Until he saw the graphics. Tried to use the interface. Heard the sound (the little of it that was there). Realized that most of the screen text was still in French (a language as unknown to him as Lisp or Swaheli). Was suddenly, and with no warning, returned to Windows. Went back to the web site to read that the game was still not completely done, and for now all players would have unlimited money, and all units equal power. "What a crock", thought Morn, and played some more SiN. As it seems, almost anything that can go wrong with a computer game did go wrong with Mankind. So many weirdnesses have happened that I find it difficult to write a funny and entertaining text around them, so I'll just present them as a simple list. Here goes:
Now, there is a Mankind community out there, and a pretty strong one at that. But from what I've been told, most Mankind players have simply decided to accept their fate and see Mankind as a huge "role playing game", with clan wars taking place rather on their webpages than within the game. When asked for the things Vibes did right with Mankind, one of the players I talked to simply stated (after thinking about the answer for a moment): "The communication system. It's like a mini ICQ, and you can give money and units to someone." Mankind is so broken, PC Gamer UK recently gave the game their first (and only) "N/A" rating, saying it was so utterly terrible and incomplete that it wasn't really a game. I want my DM 70 back. |
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Rantage (hm that sounds familiar...), #69: "Oh, God no. Communication between players is enough of a problem as it is. No need to make it worse." No kidding. Communication and AI seem to be the spottiest parts of most games going out the door these days - whether it be unresponsive RTS units, horrible unit pathfinding, or communication problems between other players. Besides, you'll always have the lamers/newbies who don't feel like communicating with their allies, enemies, or anyone else, for that matter. Ugh. -db |
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believe it or not: as soon as i got my first five millions, i will make you guys the head of staff for the ultimate game, telling those programmers guys where to set priorities and making a discussing group for all balancing problems. you would lead a perfect life and this would lead to the perfect dream. i really enjoyed this thread and ... well, mort: we all get out a little smarter ;) thx guys. |
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My solution to any type of upkeep system is what's currently in some MMRPGs: maintenance. You need to pay XXX amount of money to get an NPC to repair your armor and weapons, otherwise they'll fall apart. To maintain a large house or vehicle, you should have to pay a <I>substantial</I> upkeep fee - if you don't have the funds set aside when the repo man comes, your precious new dragon boat ends up at the lot and you have to pay big bucks to spring it. I think that would keep the game interesting - having a large upkeep fee on substantial game objects would keep the game's designers from having to put arbitrary limits on the amount of, say, star destroyers, that you could have. And if a big clan made of the top players wants to have ten, they can pay the upkeep costs for ten. -db |
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Well, Mankind have some bugs, flaws etc. but it is the best S&F Online Game - well, its the only one :) - (i dont count round based games). Vibes and the players pay the price for; to be the first! Its some kind of a adventure and it is not expensiv. cu in space Bit Steen |
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I like the idea of decay. Dune had that. You had to spend money repairing your equipment because the sand would cause it to slowly loose health. If you have to continually pay to maintain your forces, it becomes much more difficult to maintain a large military. Maybe you have to pay your forces a salary, or maybe your forces have a % chance of revolting and becoming pirates. Raise their pay, less chance of a revolt. Have turrets and equipment become less effective over time requiring them to be replaced. |
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I would prefer to play Imperium Galactica II multiplayer over Mankind. The bottom line is that Mankind is a crappy game rife with bugs. I don't think its rife with bugs because the idea is flawed, but because it was rushed to market (and maybe because of the developer's ability, but we probably shouldn't go there. That one always comes back to bite you on the ass. :) |
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<i>Mankind is made up of two words, <b>'mank'</b> and <b>'ind'</b> What do these words mean? It's a mystery. and that's why so is mankind.</i> <b>LOSE... LOSE... LOSE</b> |
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Uhm Brandon, Dune the original wargame didnt have decay. What it DID have was encroaching damage _IF_ you hadnt built on pre-layed concrete slabs. a nuance, but an important one. Shame Dune 2000 was such a fucking travesty of a game. DS |
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Bad_CRC: <i>'LOSE... LOSE... LOSE'</i> NO! The ghost of PlanetCrap 2.0 has returned to haunt us! Aaaaaaah! - Morn |
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Pishaw morn :) You should know better by now not to buy a game by reading the package. People want your money. If it were legal to kill people and take their money, I have no doubt that publishers (and some developers) would. I know you know this. It's immoral. It's injustice. It's wrong. It's capitalism. I hope whoever made the game is getting a good laugh out of this. Maybe Richard Garriot and Cryo should team up for <b>Mankind X Online</b> (followed shortly after by the less painful <b>Mankind X Online: The KY edition</b> New paragraph; does anyone know the status of that old people vs Origin lawsuit? |
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err, could've phrased that better. How about something like, that old civil suit of customers vs Origin. |
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Seth, yeah, as I've stated many times before I'm not a big fan of bringing all this gaming crap to court, as I believe gamers should really do some research before spending money on a game (just like with everything else). It's made easier today by such wonderful sites like <a href="http://www.deja.com">Deja</a> and, of course, the Crap. :-) However, I believe that what's happening with Mankind is simply so incredibly ridiculous that whoever's fault it is should be hanged in a public place, or play Ultima IX on the minimum required system for 10 hours with no break. Excuse my choice of words, but the Mankind license agreement reads like a fucking joke. Why did they even bother to include the CD? A license agreement like this for a game like that isn't even annoying, but probably not even valid. And what's even worse is that they're getting away with it, because they have a large fanbase willing to defend a behaviour like that. Grrr... - Morn |
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Hi everyone, I just wanted to point out that there's a huge well of ideas on how to solve the "powerful old player makes gameplay impossible for newbie" available in the form of MUD's ;) I think that having an active administration, some restrictions on PvP (like for example killing someone of lesser worth means loosing some worth) and enough things to do besides killing newbies should do a lot to keep things playable and enjoyable for most... |
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dammit morn, you got my hopes up thinking we're all gonna die :-P |
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Darkseid, I'm 99.9% sure that Wind Traps would decay with time. Even if they didn't, the idea is a good one. |
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That licence is a joke. Computer games are normaly sold expecting to be working finished products, not development beta versions. Therefore to sell a development beta game without making that fact clear. Otherwise the product is "Not fit for the purposes for which it was sold" ... you're expecting a working game. I'm sure of it. In the UK, you'd be able to demand your money back if it wasn't *clearly* labeled as Beta. Does that help anyone? }ŹD |
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hello. <b>this is a test.</b> <i>if it had been an actual post, there would be something useful in it.</i> then again, since it's from me, probably not.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Planetcrap needs a Crapometer. For each topic you could vote the the level of crapocity. Some kind of voting thing. Voting is cool. |
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GreenMarine: Yeah, but then this lovely thing we have here would transform from PlanetCrap into CrapDot. Yuck. Am I the only one who thinks SlashDot is lame? -db |
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Kind of like Slashdot, right GreenMarine? They have that little rating thing, but I think moderators do that. Man, that's got to be a bitch. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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deadboat: Wow, we didn't just hit the same topic or anything at the same time, did we? :) I think Slashdot is pretty lame, because it's a bit too crowded for my taste. I don't like how that comment system works either. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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When I first heard about Mankind around six months ago, my reaction was "ah well". That's still my reaction after reading Morn's summary of the current situation. The state of this game, both now and at 'release' time, just doesn't surprise me at all. Mankind was released like this because the publisher knew they could get away with it. More games will be released in the same state in future because the publishers know they can get away with it. Game after game, year after year, people buy shoddy games and when they don't work, they put them on a shelf and go and buy another one. Gamers tolerate being ripped off, and that's why it keeps happening. For a few years it was acceptable (and correct) to blame the publishers and developers for shoddy games. Not any more. Nowadays, consumers are partially to blame. Lots of companies, understandably, will work to the limits of their market. The games market has said, over and over again, that unfinished games are within those limits. Morn quite rightly doesn't like the situation with Mankind, but by persisting with the game he's effectively encouraging another company to do the same thing. Being annoyed with a company doesn't actually do much good - you have to be pro-active. You have to take your money back from them and not give them any more. Otherwise you're just standing out in the wilderness, shouting, and nobody can hear you. |
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deadboat - no, you're not the only one. I stopped reading Slashdot because it made me feel physically sick. Having people 'score' the opinions of others... ugh, it's just disgusting. |
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#93: That, and it seems that there are more pretrentious, I-know-all-and-you-are-a-peon-and-I-am-God assholes on Slashdot every day. YES! I AM GOING TO LOOK KEWL CUZ I KNOW THE LS COMMAND IN BLUE HAT LUNIX! FIRST POST! -db |
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Wow, I wonder if Vibes has ever made any games before. If they did, were they any good? And I didn't see this mentioned anywhere: At least Battlecruiser 3000 has kept getting upgraded :) Greg |
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How about this: You can't get to the EULA without first opening the game package, but if you don't agree with the EULA you're stuck with a game that is essentially a coaster. I don't know about where you guys live, but where I live <b>you can't return opened video games</b> you can only exchange them for the same title. Thank you. |
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morn: I see the relevance of your post, but you're too much of a shady character to play that "innocent hurt consumer" type. I mean, your run planetcrap. :) Then again, I don't think many here bore witness of that battle that went down between shadows.co.uk and Unreal.org. seh always had the news, but the ORG had the black guy of the Unreal community, and Unreal Audio. Not to mention a randomly generated title image made by all the site's fans. Andy: Nice to hear Jashon Hall hasn't succeded in his attempts of assasinating you. :) I agree with your point, but - and it's a big BIG but (Jennifer Lopez big), they are the ones selling you something, they are taking our money (they we all work very hard for). If something doesn't work as they *sold it* and advertised it, shouldn't the consumer have the right to at least get their money back, and decide whether even more legal compensation be made, for them selling something that didn't work as advertised? As if, because of their inadequcies the responsibility falls back on you instead of staying on the one who took your money. This is all very extreme, but wouldn't this make the problem go away? Somewhere between it's current state and this new one. Certainly only in extended cases would this happen, say in the case of Ultima 9, or BC3K. That is a thousand people getting something that didn't work as advertised. A thousand people feeling like they were just stolen from. I really wonder who came up with the term 'Cavaet Emptor' anyway, the buyers or the sellers? |
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Geh, I really shouldn't try and type when I'm this tired. |
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Well Morn I`m REALLY not surprised of what you`ve just said. By the way I'd like to say one simple thing to all of those who put Mankind's mediocrity on France and frenchmen-- Your memory is very short, some of the best and most innovative games came from France. Want titles? Alone in the Dark, Moto Racer, Flashback, Heart of Darkness, etc. Now to my main point. France is a very proud country or something. They finance their high profile enterprises. Cryo and Kalisto (of Dark Earth and Nightmare Creatures fame) are now simply like xeroxs. They make games just to make games. They rely on the spectacular visuals of their games for them to sell but they don't really care since their financed by the state. We get a truckload of french software here and I've been caught only ONCE by Cryo: they made a Ubik (by Blade Runner's Philip K. Dick...) pc game and, god, they used prerendered on the back of the box. The game sucked ass as a matter of fact. Highly bugged, badly programmed, etc. With Mankind I'm guessing they did the same. The only problem is that as hard as you may try, you CANNOT make a persistent world game with bad programming and no persistent tweaking. Cryo is there to cash in, period. I doubt there will ever be a second Mankind. If it happens it'll be because some high profile publisher saw something good in Mankind and decided to take Vibes under their wing. Cryo won't do the same mistake again. Anyhoo.. people please just stop blaming "frenchness" ok? I don't know where it started but it's becoming annoying Ben |
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When I first heard about this Mankind game in another thread in the 'Crapper, I thought it was a sarcastic comment. Now that I see that this is a real happening, allegedly I guess haha, I'm simply flabbergasted. Wouldja stop the world?? |
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Andy: <i>'Morn quite rightly doesn't like the situation with Mankind, but by persisting with the game he's effectively encouraging another company to do the same thing. Being annoyed with a company doesn't actually do much good - you have to be pro-active. You have to take your money back from them and not give them any more. Otherwise you're just standing out in the wilderness, shouting, and nobody can hear you.'</i> You're exactly right, that's why I'm going to write to Cryo about it and demand my money back. Unfortunately, I have this feeling that they're going to tell me that it's a bit too late, as I bought my copy over a year ago (how big are my chances, you think? I seriously don't know...). I was stupid enough to believe Cryo and Vibes when they claimed that "it'd work really soon". :( (On a sidenote... what I'd really like to see is a time where a thread on PlanetCrap is worse than a million lawsuits. Hmmm...) - Morn |
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Regarding slashdot, anyone noticed the number of (what the moderators class as) rubbish posts has gone up to about 30 - 40% of the total number of posts nowadays ? Shame really, it was a good site til about a year ago. Dev |
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Morn - well, if you don't mind investing the necessary time and money, I'd say you should sue them if they won't give you a refund. On principle, if for no other reason. |
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Bob McBob, I agree with you totally on this. I've often found that games made on the continent generally expand genres outwards of what you would normally find in any UK or USA based game. If anything, their 'frenchness' or to be more accurate, their "Europeanesss" is a virtue not to be scoffed at or overlooked, but to be studied and integrated into our own tried and tested themes. Examples more recently than the games you stated would be Omikron (French) and Outcast (Belgian). For another French example of gaming finesse, cast your mind back to 1992 and the blockbuster hit Another World. Being Foreign (French or otherwise) is not the issue in this thread, simply shitty-arsed programming and penny-pinching, miserly publishers. -Chango |
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This tread is not really helping my mood. I'm getting tired of games that don't work and people trying to be positive about them. I feel that the more understanding we are the more it encourages the industry to see how much more they can get away with. It's become epidemic. Game always have patches. They are sometimes shipped KNOWING they have to patch stuff and saying so. I'm very tired of people acting like if you buy a game that does not work you should be positive about it, soon a patch will come that will fix everything. Bull crap. Negativity rules. Embrace the bitterness. rail against bastards taking your money and give you a shiney plastic dick.... er,disk-o-crap. You know, playing violent computer games has never given me the desire to kill anybody. But when I hear people being Positive about getting screwed over for hard earned cash I just slip a cog. When I hear the puerile legal sludge that oozes out of game publishers legal department I just want to take a rusty linoleum hook and........... well, I'll spare you the details. Let's just say I'm not a happy person today. I'm kind of sick of the double standard that say's " If the game does not work, it's only a game" on the other hand "If you warze a game you stealing money from hard working programmer". Sheesh, I almost wish I was ambitious enough to warze but I'm too damm lazy. Hell I find waiting for a game to load from a CD taxing on my patience, then when it boots up the game and crashes back to windows..... well that is about all the excitement handle. I guess I can boil this all down in one concise little statement. If I pay for a game I want to play a game, if I can't play the game I paid for I'm don't feel, obligated to be positive about it. Things are not going to get better unless we bitch, and maybe eat a few of the weaker looking publishers alive. I'm done talking now. Please feel free to chat among yourselves.... |
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GreenMarine: "Have turrets and equipment become less effective over time requiring them to be replaced. " - I don't know whay anyone hasn't thought of it so far, but I think just making ammo a finite resource, instead of it being infinite as long as you have the gold / wood / credits. Say it costs so much wood / gold / credits to buy 500 rounds of ammo for a turret gun, then the player can't simply set it to guard and forget about it. This method directs the player's attention more across his / her total kingdom or base, instead of what is happening at the moment, whereby the player will set up one area more than another because turrets will guard and shoot for ever if unopposed. I find the prospect of a gun or tank running out of ammo more believable than the tank simply decomposing in mid battle. -Chango |
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It's Thursday afternoon, and, what a surprise, the Mankind account creation system, which has been offline for a while, is now back online. - Morn |
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CRYO, eh? Wow. That explains it. They are a disastrous bunch of misfits. I can't believe they're not broke or sued to death yet. Didn't know they did an UBIK game, but... anyone else remember their "Aliens: Dark Horse Comic Book Adventure" game? Oh, it was all the hype when it was being developed. Supposed to have this-and-that X-Com type action/strategy combat system. Supposed to have an extensive story... supposed to make bloody sense. When it was released, it was a not-even-half-arsed mishmash of a few different idiotic things. 1) A 'talk to people and choose the right things to say' adventure game. Dialogue to get the right things made no sense. Had no apparent point to it. 2) A 'take item use item' Myst point-and-click rail-walker game. 3) A pointless and nonsensical "transfer items between members of your party" isometric overhead RPG. Combined with a ridiculous faux-Diablo point-and-click-here-to-attack. More notes about Cryo's fine, fine job on this steamer: There were constant crashes and bugs in the first release. GAME STOPPER bugs. So bad, in fact, that the publisher sent replacement CDs with the updated version of the game to all game owners who requested them. No patch, just replacement CDROMs. The entire first chunk of the game was changed so that a 10-minute conversation part of the game between main character and part of crew was removed. It was considered sexist, offensive, and NONSENSICAl. There was obviously the intention for more actual combat in the game. There were slots/notes for multiple lazer gun levels - but only ONE in the game. Some of the items/storyline bits made NO sense. NONE. A major, tedious "puzzle" in the first part of the game (feeding your crew after waking up after cryo sleep) was removed. It was obnoxious as hell. The game was changed to remove the need to carry food around in inventory, but it's still pointless. DUMB DUMB DUMB: Play the game, get to a milestone section with a bit of FMV. Game autosaves at that point. After 20-25 'moves' or actions in any direction, aliens overrun complex and you die. No way to stop it, even with the right moves. This is a signal to restart from that last milestone, and you continue with everything you had, just back at a previous location, and the time resets.... DUMB! Just poorly done. As for KRONOS, they're French? Oh, wait, sorry, that was KALISTO. They weren't that bad. Not great, creative at least, but Nightmare Creatures had some DUMB issues with it... |
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Well that's bizarre... I justv saw a quote of the nanosecond quoting me quoting GreenMarine. *Mondo Bizarro* |
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"It's Thursday afternoon, and, what a surprise, the Mankind account creation system, which has been offline for a while, is now back online. " Mr0n, you been sending Cryo emails along the lines of...."http://www.planetcrap.com - ph3ar /\/\3!!" or something? Word must have got to them one way or another - it can't be that much of a coincidence can it? Can it? OR can it...?? -Chango |
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Chango [106]: "<i>. . . but I think just making ammo a finite resource, instead of it being infinite as long as you have the gold / wood / credits. </i> Anytime a resource is limited, the people with the most power (the established players) will conrol it. If you limit the amount of ammo, the price will rise, and only the grandpas will be able to afford it, giving them an even greater advantage. |
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Not to sound profane, but this sounds like the f*ckest game yet. Didn't Cryo close down a few years ago? *Digs through magazines* Online only...unlimited number of players..900 million planets.. economic and social desicions must be made...control military forces on sea, land and in space..and behold, the screenshot looks cool too! Release date: 2nd quarter of 1999. How many of these features actually appeared in the game? |
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#110: I would imagine something much more epic from good old mr0n. "DEAR DUMB FRENCHY FAGOTS MAEK YORU STUPID GAEM WORK OR I WILL SHEWT AND KILL YOU WITH LASER GUNN BEEMS FROM MY EYELIDS!!! HAHA M0RN" Or maybe something along the lines of: "A biblical plague of locusts will swarm upon your house of evil! They will destroy your tools of sin and leave you with nothing! <B>Praise the Lord!</B>" Hm... the most pointless post yet on PC 3.0? Probably. |
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Right, I see your point there, but as far as the grandaddy contingent goes, the same could be said for decaying turrets and tanks etc. I was simply saying that instead of a tank crumbling to peices in the battlefield, it should instead run out of ammo or power - that would be better suited to real-time strat. Either way, repair / more ammo will still cost money or resource units, whcih of course returns to your point that the more experienced players will be able to control these things more easily and once again will dominate them play. -Chango. |
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It's a shame that such a great licence as Ubik was given to Cryo. Come to think of it, it's a shame it was given to <i>anyone</i> - I'm not entirely convinced it could be translated to another media and still retain any semblance of the original. (I would go so far as to say this applies to all Philip K. Dick books - <b>Bladerunner</b>, while a good movie, was a horrible bastardization of <i>Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?<i>; <b>Total Recall<b> disregarded the crux of the short story it was based on, and then failed even as a movie.) |
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UBIK, I disagree that Blade Runner was a horrible bastardization of DADOES? ... although I agree with you on Total Recall... and Screamers... BR may not follow DADOES? exactly, and it does indeed change the tone of the novel from Dick's more paranoid "lousy commie skin jobs" bit to the more sensitive "are they human?" version in the movie. But remember what PKD said when, months before he died, he saw the dailies of what they were filming and read the script... he said that what they filmed was much more what he wanted to write. In fact, look at the anger (psychosis) in DADOES and go back to the more introspective view of "We Can Build You" and you'll see that, kipple aside, BR is what DADOES should have been, even according to the author himself. Oh, and CRYO SUXS DOOD JEFF K WILL ROOL THEMM! |
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Yeah, any penalty applied arbitrarily will always be felt more by newbies than the established players. Perhaps including some kind of logistics cost to your fleet that increases exponentailly as your fleet size increases. I work for a USAF contractor, and I know that for a large force, the cost to keep a plane in the air far exceeds the direct cost of pilot, fuel, etc . . . |
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Hey, can we add KRONOS to the list of DungBeetles along with CRYO? I would like to take this time to rant about MEAT PUPPET. Anyone (sorry, NE1) remember that one? |
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Morn <a href="http://www.planetcrap.com/stories/7/#956843671">[107]</a>... Heh... I'll bet the registration was turned back on because Cryo figured because of this thread they'd get a few more suckers. Negativity aside, nothing sells more games than awareness of a title. I'm sure somebody on this board will have the morbid curiosity to try Mankind now. |
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Oh, and I really enjoyed Total Recall. Whether it's like the book or not, it was a pretty good film. Who can forget, "See you at the party, Richter!" |
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