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The Unbearable Lightness of Dying. A Lot.
May 28th 2002, 10:45 CEST by Bailey Here's the matters which raise umbrage with me surrounding SoF2. I'll number them real easy-like so you guys can tick off the reasons I'm a jaded fuck in an organized, numerical fashion rather than the usual projectile vomitus about my hating all life, creation, and substance on the planet. 1) In the Columbian levels, the enemy shows a particular proclivity for being able to peg you in the head from 200 yards while you're crawling through waist-high shrubbery on your belly. You, on the other hand, need some magic pixies circling the head of your enemies while sprinkling glowing fairy dust to find a Columbian standing five feet away. Note that the Columbian is also waving a red flag. 2) Enemies which spawn in areas you've already been just to punish you for exploring. You know the drill. You clear an area, you check all the doors, nooks, crannies, then open the vault to get some weapons before heading to the next area, and turn around to find the Wu-Tang Clan and their respective firepower aimed at that particularly embarrassing mole on your left testicle that looks like J. Edgar Hoover in a string bikini. 3) The impressive ability that everyone in the world has (except for you) to strafe back and forth wildly while shooting their desired target in the face, repeatedly. Over and over. At 30kmph. With blindfolds on. From 100 yards off. With a micro-uzi. 4) Stealth missions. The grand joke being the "stealth" part lasts, on average, 15-45 seconds into the mission, which quickly devolves into a running firefight with 60 or so guys. 5) Privacy curtains, a wonderful invention of the early medical system, are thin, pliable, and easily shot through. That's great. The problem is that terrorists have apparently been blessed by the aformentioned sparkle pixies, because they can see you through said solid, opaque, indestructible curtains. You, adversely, cannot see them. Or destroy them. Or bypass them. The quickload key defaults to F8, in case you're wondering. You'll be needing that. 6) The random map generator. Never has something been so over-hyped since Daikatana, New Coke, or the cure for cancer. And it was barely hyped, but even being included in the game is a grotesque error. Simple example: In tonight's game, the defenders spawned 50 feet from the offence. After a quick laugh over the poor design, the map was re-seeded, which left the defenders locked in a valley to the SE, while the offence had an easy, care-free jog to the briefcase. Oh yes. Loving the RMG. Did I also mention every single RMG level is a vast, empty area dotted with tree houses and roman columns? Sniper paradise, you say? No thanks, I'm full. 7) All the levels being designed for an average team population of five. So in case you ever planned on that cozy little LAN party with you and your three friends, prepare for a rocking good time of running around looking for someone, anyone, to shoot. 8) The marines, who while supposedly on my side, shot me in the head if I ran away from them, or when they casuallywandered in front of my steadily-firing gun. They also had the charming tendency to tell me to go into a house and clear it out on my own. Woe be unto me should I open the front door to find a rebel behind it, as the marines would open fire into my spine in an attempt to take out said rebel. The real charmer was the marine who threw a grenade in after me as I scrambled for cover. Thank you, Raven AI team! Share your opinions, experiences, fanboi spewings, etc. |
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Topic: The Unbearable Lightness of Dying. A Lot.
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So do I, so when your irrefutable evidence gets proven wrong somewhere down the line, don't complain when people laugh. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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Guys who scream "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!" clearly pwn the detractors. Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
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yet this: This isn't the year 3010 buddy they make with what technology exists and if they can exactly mimic human life they aren't going to waste it on some game for you. ...is clearly a leading candidate for "quote of the year". because it's so true. Whoops, sorry, was my common sense showing again? -HoseWater
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So where exactly is the evidence that this guy knows what the fuck he is talking about, and is not a 3rd rate gamer pissing and moaning because he can't pass a level? Or do you just like his opinion because it closely matches your own? Just curious since it looks like a post by a run of the mill anon poster. |
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Didn't you read, he took an AI course, so now he knows all! |
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I, like, the, comma. |
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Well, I mean, come on Hose, he's really sure of himself! Even if he admits he doesn't know facts or details, and probably has no experience in the field whatsoever... But he read that Gamespy article a couple weeks back, and he remembers most of it! So you best recognize. Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
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Bailey... you are so full of shit. I've encounted the AI blinding me with their smoke grenades, while guys kick over tables and hide behind them, shooting at me while their buddies run around trying to flank me. I've seen guys hide in cupboards making me believe the room is clear while lobbing a grenade my way, guys pick up grenades and throw them back at me, and run away when the going gets too tough. I don't know what bug you have up your ass, but you should just lighten up. Sounds like you're just pissed because you're "dying a lot." Play on God mode if you need to feed your ego. I guess you'll just go on believing your so-called AI expert that read an article once about how AI is all scripted. |
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Yeah ok, it's a lame quote, but there is lot of truth in it. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Getting back to the booth babe topic, as it turns out I still like boobies. Smashing!
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Explains the man tits. I believe I can fly......urk.
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CounterSpike, it's a good thing you're so pretty because you ain't too smart. Take a look at some of the scripts in therest.pk3 i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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That's above and beyond his school of abilities. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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Maybe his erudite Blue's alter-ego can help him with it? Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
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http://www.ratemykitten.com Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Thinking... |
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Thinking... |
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i agree, i noticed some of these flaws in the multi player beta i'm still tearing it up in. guys on the run making perfect head shots, micro uzis that have a 5 foot spray hitting while on the run.. and jumping, and crouching in air, and falling down.. recoil on some of the weapons is way over exagerated sepcifically the m-60, oh and that whole "I made a perfect 500 meter shot with my pistol to your head" crap just doesn't cut it with me anymore. about the only weapon i have found to be dead accurate so far has been that magical "recoilless" 45 sub machingun and the ak-74, however the AK-74 has a BAD habit of using it's alternate weapon instead of primary weapon. nothing quite like pulling down on the trigger with a full magazine of ammo and getting a stabbing motion. at first i figured it was user error, but after gaming and gamingand gaming and finally a witness, it was not user error. im not worried. im looking forward to the full version whenever i get it. ill tear the single player apart for a week, then just go multiplayer as usual. i'll adapt, or there will be patches. one or the other. |
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Punctuation, capitalization, sentences, paragraphs. All make for the kind of most someone might actually read. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Now, if you'd put spelling on that list, it would have made for some delicious irony... Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
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How does pointing to therest.pk3 prove a damned thing? Are you implying that the random mission generator randomly decides to use scripts? bwahahahah. Sure... jackass. If so then you must also be implying that the raven programmers are sheer genious. So these scripts are randomly picked to randomly jump over random placed rocks, or hide behind randomly placed obstacles.? Whatever. If they figured that out then who cares if it's a script or AI. Either way it's fucking cool. All the actions I posted show true AI IMO and not some lame script. Are there scripts,? Yeah. duh. Is there true AI? yeah there is. |
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True AI? *raises eyebrow* Don't be holding your breath on that one...no, scratch that, please do. |
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Sir, I worked at Raven as a programmer, and I can assure you that there was not a trace of genious to be found. |
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DOH! post not most. fork. never fails. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Heh. That's what we call a class act where I come from. Y'know. Relatively speaking. Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
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In reference to Nathan of course. Not Nova. Never Nova. Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
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CounterSpike, you should quit while you are ahead. Unfortunately for you, this isn't just some random web board full of idjits. There are actually a few people here who know what they are talking about. And to those few, it's blatantly obvious that you don't. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Of course, that post wasn't meant to insult the multitude of random idjits. Sorry if I belittled you presence in anyway way. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Well, my spelling abilities just aren't getting any better today are they! Morn should swap the post and preview buttons. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Can you spot the random idjit, kids? Sure you can! I have some questions about your code - suggestions really, in the form of direct orders.
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No, that CounterSpike guy is absolutely right when he said 'true AI'.. I told a 'yo momma' joke to one of the bots, and he laughed.. just like Number 5 in "Short Circuit".. I kid you not. Stop slaughtering the AI's, you mofo's.. I'm from Australia, and I have a crocodile down my pants.
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no you're not We've also revolutionized the boob technology
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ahh!! that was was meant for post #100 damn next page... We've also revolutionized the boob technology
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SoF2 has true AI? Really complete adaptive AI? For real? Ashiran laughs and laughs. And then cries a lot. "I've got a spoiler for you. YOU WILL DIE ALONE!" - Triumph
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I hope I can strike a strategic alliance with this True AI now, before it wipes me out with all the other puny hoo-mans. Dear Raven: I have some questions about your code - suggestions really, in the form of direct orders.
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I'm serious.. stop killing the AI... or else I'm gonna have to report to the Federation, and Data is gonna kick yer asses.. I'm from Australia, and I have a crocodile down my pants.
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Nathan... why must you taunt me with your booth babe pictures? why? -chris |
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They aren't THAT good looking. "I've got a spoiler for you. YOU WILL DIE ALONE!" - Triumph
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Ashiran - No, they're not. Nor would it matter if they were, or if they were hideous gorgon hags. -chris |
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The important point, as far as I'm concerned, is that they're from Everquest. Before its launch. Before I purchased Verant's ...fine... product and developed, um, rather strong opinions about them as a company, their vague evolutionary connection to humanity as a whole, etc. And not just from Everquest, either, but Firiona Vie! And she's company sponsored - she's not just some random goth-fan from a fan faire dressed up as her Dark Elf enchantress Drizzette, she's the real thing! That, chris, is why. Besides, they weren't really booth babes proper - they were more of a babe random encounter, possibly a rare spawn, if you will (and I wouldn't, if I were you), yielding NODROP polaroids. The end. Nathan |
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It's good to know that reading comprehension and applied logic are as important as punctuation in today's schools. Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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MattG's kitten link has, I believed, burned the corneas from my head, and incidentally given the Farkers a new goldmine of cliche material. However, this does mean I can get new metallic ninja corneas installed. I'm pretty sure, from exhaustive text analysis (well, just from reading it), that Counterspike's vaunted expert post was by Counterspike. The lack of paragraphs, spelling, punctuation, or good sense really give it away. Mouthpunch Arcade
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Ozzy make me crazy DOOMED! - Videogames Turn Deadly.
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Nova Z Realism is not a substitute for good gameplay. Never has been, never will be. Amen to that! Realism...sucks. Realism does not equal suspension of disbelief. The latter is what one would want to employ. Exaggeration is also nice. Not many fun games made nowadays, sadly :\ "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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the games arent getting worse your just getting used to them |
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Then, the spelling fairy killed herself, weeping quietly as she shuffled off this mortal coil. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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MattG's kitten link made my allergies flare up on the first pic. Ouch. Another box of Kleenex, please. I don't think any more comments need to be said about "Counterspike". Really. Quoting an anon post from Blues as "authoritative?" GG KTHX LOL GTG BBIAB Build a man a fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of the night. Light a man on fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.
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You forgot the pzl. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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I take back what I said about good points. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Wouldn't have found this site if it wasn't for the shack. But it's a refreshing topic, since I was involved in a quake 2 mod that failed. It failed largely because of the impossible task of creating "fun AI". As a programmer you can basically take whatever you think you've learned about algorithms and throw them out the window. They won't help you because the consumer does not want AI, they want fun. What they want I think is a bit unrealistic, they want little neural networks inside their machines I think that learn and develop. Yeah right, maybe in a 2D game but good luck getting that to fit in memory when you have huge graphic demands. Blech, ecommerce programs don't have these same unrealistic demands so I'll stick with that. But for what it's worth (not much!) heres my 2 cents. :> I agree with almost everything posted by germz: As far as the enemy AI in the single player, it has its good points and bad points. The AI just spawning out of thin air when you hit some trigger is definitely the most annoying thing about the game. I hoping it had to do with some limitation of the q3 engine or memory resources, and not implemented in the game just to fuck with you. MOH:AA did the same shit too, so I wonder if they were not just trying to get around some limitation inherent to the engine or something. Most of the time though the AI was fun to play against. Yes, they are very good shots though, and there is a lot of dying in this game - even for experienced players. Respawning seems like a design problem, not a problem with the intelligence of the enemies. Thats what I see alot in this game, poor design decisions. It's the largest thing hurting the game. And this is no doubt the main reason this game is getting knocked a lot - imho. Experienced players seem to feel they can just load up the game and just have their way with the AI like they do with every-other FPS game. Instead they get their ass handed to them over and over again - on the medium difficulty at that. Their first reaction seems to invariably be “THIS AI IS CRAP.” In reality, the AI’s only real fault is that they are good shots. I’m betting that if Raven had gone just a little softer on the AI, and fed the egos of the players a little more, reviews of the AI would be drastically different. If you think they are 'unrealisticly hard' you really ought to question the reality of one man taking on dozens and dozens of armed combatants and expecting to come out alive at all. The very fact that it is possible to beat the game at all should mean that it is 'unrealisticly easy.' This is completely true. The average gamer seems to think that he should have smart AI AND be able to go through and never die. Well it doesn't work that way kids. If you have smart AI you're going to get your ass kicked. SoF2 does a good job at making it possible for you to defeat thousands of men and for that alone it is unrealistically easy. I would go so far to say that the boys at Raven have done a bang up job on the AI. They've made it as fun as they can with still having realistic combat. Have any of the critics on this site played more than one level of the game, I doubt it. The full reviews coming from various sites seem to be postive and most forums are positive also, so people who actually play the game are enjoying it. Since I am not done with it, I'm not going to post a full review but instead I'll share a war story to illustrate my point. I got to the colombia missions and suddenly they hook me up with this squad of marines. We are assigned to clear out a rebel encampment. So instead of playing the role of the sniper, I decide to sneak out ahead a bit and scout around. The squad gets involved in a fight a little ways back while I'm confronted with one baddie hiding under a bush. I shoot at him and don't kill him because I hit his gun. Instead of cowering right there which would have been easy he runs off at full tilt and gets far away from me. I figured I didn't have to worry about him anymore so I backtrack to where my squad has a bunch of rebels held up inside a shack. We're in a pin down situation, I've got a sniper on me and any time I poke my head out I'm liable(sp?) to get it shot off. This is creating a real feeling of war here as we're pinned down. Finally another marine decides he's had enough of this and says "YOU WANT SOME OF THIS?", he takes out a grenade and lobs it into the shack. One rebel comes running out to get the hell out of there so I take him down. I figure the rest will die soon from the explosion so I'm on the move now to get a better view of the gore. Just as I get my better view I can see him picking up the grenade! Sure enough, he picks it up and throws it back. His one remaining buddy mumbling something in spanish as he levels his sights on me. Unfortunately for him the timer goes off mid air and exlodes in the doorway giving me enough chance to blast them both. After the battle one of the marines shouts "THAT SHOWED THEM" or something, nice. So we move on to the next area and I see that dude from way before who I shot his gun off. He's cowering behind a buddy he found and back in the corner. Instead of taking out him I have more pressing concerns. His buddy sees me and I catch a glimpse of him rolling a grenade. Suddenly there's smoke from the nade so I take cover quick. My squad sounds like they are in a fight as I hear lots of shouting so I'm kinda on my own with this guy. I'm behind a tree and start popping out then back to get shots on him. I pop my head out and he's gone, then BANG! A shot comes from behind a stump, the bastard advanced on me! No fair! ;) Anyway I finally cap him and move on to help my squad, turning my back. Then I remember about that guy from before and figure I should put him out of his misery and get a chance to see some more gore. Just as I turn around I see him picking up the gun of his fallen buddy! He picks it up with enough time to get one shot at me before I cap him. Anyway this is a long story but goes to show that the AI has it's moments, it has alot of them. Heck I'll go so far as to agree with counterspike (nice name heh) that I HAVE seen cool stuff in the RMG. I've seen flanking in there like I described above and I've even seen them jump on top of logs. The best thing about all of this is that every time you play a level it changes slightly, slightly different gun fights and slightly different behaviors. So we know it's not scripted. But before I close I wanted to use the story to show why it's good AI. 1. Realistic when it needs to be. The gun getting shot off is good, that really would happen and a guy really would get the hell out of there if he had no other weapon. The timer of the grenade going off is good. The use of a smoke grenade for a defensive manuever(sp?) is good. The voice communication of the friendly marines also seems realistic. 2. Fun when it needs to be. It's not realistic for one person to take on an army. It's cool I could take like 10 shots but when I got a bead on a guy for the most part he was toast and my reward was to see some gore. 3. Unpredictable when it needs to be. The AI is different everytime which means you will see patterns arising in their behavior but you do get the occasional surprise. Like the first time you see a smoke grenade or (for me just now) the first time you see someone throw a grenade back! It's unpredictable enough to keep you on the edge of your seat. In closing, I think I agree with the minority (on this board) and reviewers that this is a fun game and the AI is what makes it fun. I agree with germz too that it's a hard game and it's very easy for an FPS gamer to not appreciate the subtelties, you really have to try at this game. But hey thats war right! ;) Also I think some people aren't using the game features enough. Different from Sof1, the sound meter here actually matters. For example, I tried restarting the whole game with always run on. Even on that first level the guys hear you right away and say something in russian then come running. If you play this game carefully it can be fun. Only thing is Raven: I think you made it a little too hard. <shrug>Better that than too easy. Also: YES the cinematics are crap. I always skip them. |
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