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Max no longer a payne for 3D Realms
May 24th 2002, 18:09 CEST by Matt Davis Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. has Announced Max Payne 2 Is In Development, and in something of a surprise they've also purchased Max Payne's Intellectual Property Rights from Remedy Entertainment and Apogee Software for the measly sum of $10 million in cash and 969,932 shares of restricted common stock. Take-Two also announced that it has acquired ownership of the Max Payne brand and all intellectual property rights associated with the brand, including trademarks, copyrights, characters, perpetual license to utilize proprietary technologies, including the Max Payne game engine and associated "Bullet Time(TM)" technology, and rights to license fees from ancillary Max Payne brand extensions such as cinema, television and literary productions. You can see the full statement here So is this some pocket money for George and Scott? Does this to allow DNF to stay in development for longer? or did Apogee decide that theres room for only one virtual ego in the office? |
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Topic: Max no longer a payne for 3D Realms
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thank god they didn't stop at Army Men 33, because Army Men: RTS is big fun. Perhaps so, but it could have easily been another RTS with an original idea for the background of it, and gotten rid of 32 other really bad Army Men titles in the interim. I think Take 2 overpaid for what they got. They should have locked you into at least a Max Payne 3. The beauty of that is, Take 2 needs to worry about that. Plus they don't necessarily have to have someone besides Remedy do a Max3, if they decide to do one. It's perfectly feasible that Remedy could say, "Yeah, why not, let's do a third go 'round with Max, the little nipper." It's just now, they don't HAVE to. That's a beautiful thing, really. (How does first right of refusal work with Remedy/Max anyways, if you can say, people in the know?) Q:How man surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Fish! |
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I hear Japanase is good on sandwiches, and in Europe they eat their French Fries with it. Q:How man surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Fish! |
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Look, it's not like George or Scott somehow owe you guys anything or have broken some sacred covenant with you and the rest of gamerdom because they decide they want to be successful and make money. I swear people act like 3DR is some type of fucking demon shitspawn. Let them do whatever they want, whether that be making games or acting as an associate producer to other game developers. What do you want them to do, come out and ask all of gamerdom if its okay whenever they make a business decision? Discussions like this amuse me . . . "It's a bird! It's a plane! Oh shit, It knows we're home!"
-Chris Johnson |
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But....but most of these folks would dry up and whither to nothing if they couldn't rag on 3DR. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Chris.. I hear Japanase is good on sandwiches, and in Europe they eat their French Fries with it Just say no |
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Yeah, it's not like a crazy deal made by a publisher with one developer has ever had an effect on the other developers associated with that publisher before, has it? I mean, sure they bought what amounts to an engine and an AWESOME NAME with 3% of their total market capitalization, but it's only 3%! They could do that, like, 30 more times! Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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So who are you gonna sell Duke Nukem to? --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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I think the "measly" part was meant sarcastically, but with cynicism the way it is on the internet I can hardly tell anymore. It mentions Take Two has the rights to the engine and "Bullet Time(TM) technology". Does that mean Remedy (I'm assuming they're doing MP2) would have to license their own engine from them? Maybe not for MP2, since that was probably started before the deal, but what about future games? That $35 million price does sound steep, it sounds like Take Two didn't really get much for the deal. Hopefully they'll be around to see the fruits of their investment. "God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900 |
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I'm not gonna post in this thread again...but... When you decide to completely not post in a thread what do we get? Four pages worth? --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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George Broussard Take 2 is shorting the hell out of their stock. Sell it before it goes underwater. |
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IP is flesh. Where's the bones? Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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I just finished Vanilla Sky, and I liked it. I'm very Anti-Cruise, and I still enjoyed the film. I did however notice the end credits on the film that it's a remake of a recent French film. No wonder the French hate us so, we takes their good movies and put Tom Cruise in them! Also, The Gift by Sam Raimi was pretty good too. Watched that one last night. ....Don't be Left with the chimps. Evolve with us...
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Hulka's approval brought to you by Cameron Diaz's dietary habits. Life without shame.
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what about a DOOM movie made with the DOOM III engine ? |
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God bless George. I'm not gonna post in this thread again...but... ... followed by three more long posts. So now does Scott get to come in and tell George to STFU and take the name of our Lord in vain? |
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So who are you gonna sell Duke Nukem to? Michael Bay. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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In any case, it is impossible to truly judge the relative strength of the positions of TTWO, 3DR and Remedy without going through the small print of the agreement with a fine toothcomb. I would imagine that there are obligations and programming contracts that would make the picture look a lot more balanced when everything is taken into consideration. |
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So who are you gonna sell Duke Nukem to? It's allready long been sold to Acti-Black-Hole-Realms pit of Time-Warp-Vision.Inc, The company that loops the game development process back where it started, at every new engine release... Forever! |
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Post-it Look, it's not like George or Scott somehow owe you guys anything or have broken some sacred covenant with you and the rest of gamerdom because they decide they want to be successful and make money. I'm with you. I really do not understand all of the vehemance directed to 3D Realms. I mean, it's not like they eat babies in a nice Balsamic Vinagrette, or they kick little kids in the testicles. They make games, and sell IPs. None of it has any relevance on the cost of bread in my neighborhood. Has anyone here been hurt in any way by what they've done? If they have, I don't see it, and I would change my tune if someone can illustrate a way that they've hurt someone. Funk. |
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PostIt, Funk: How can you not understand the hate directed towards 3DR and this IP? It has the three main factors it takes for internet hate bandwagon to start up. One, they are successful. Plain and simple. Two, they have a game in development that they've already said will own up and down AND is taking a LONG time to produce. Scott/George may or may not be right about this, but the fact they've come out and said how good it will be is gives people something to whine and bitch about. Three, at least Scott (I haven't seen it so much from George) is a very arrogant person. Whether this is justified or whether it's not arrogance and just a confidence doesn't matter. If you were to take any two of those you'd have the bandwagon starting up. Take all 3 and you've got a Super Duper Hate Fest(tm). Personally, I'm looking forward to DNF just because it could be good. That's enough to make me take a look at reviews/demos/etc when it comes out. Just like any game. I don't believe in bandwagons and hence I don't hate 3DR, Microsoft, Linux Users, Annoying People, etc... LPMiller - "Really, I'm just a get along kinda a guy, all about the love."
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Yeah, it's not like a crazy deal made by a publisher with one developer has ever had an effect on the other developers associated with that publisher before, has it? I mean, sure they bought what amounts to an engine and an AWESOME NAME with 3% of their total market capitalization, but it's only 3%! They could do that, like, 30 more times! Uh, I'm missing something. So if other devs do this, it would be a bad thing? We don't want devs making money, and possibly sticking it to publishers - whom we don't like anyway? I believe I can fly......urk.
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Buying stock in anything Broussard says is like pounding sand down a rathole. Money burnin' a hole in your pocket? Pour it into some imaginary stew. After all, we're supposed to actually PRODUCE a game called DNF, and yet no one here knows WTF it is. But...BUY STOCK! That's like going to Helen Keller for web design instruction. Now we're gonna make a new rule. When you hear me typing..."
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LPMiller: You actually want publishers to get shafted? How long do you think that could go on? What I'm talking about is a fair deal for dev, pub, and shareholder. It didn't happen here. Sure, 3D Realms and Remedy can now afford to move into Ion Storm's old offices, and even probably score an auxiliary air conditioning system and tint the giant windows so the place isn't a sauna. But Take Two doesn't have bottomless pockets, though they may act like it. Only so much free money can be given out before something actually has to be produced. Only there's not anything as far as actual product that was announced with this deal other than Max Payne 2. Sure, maybe the profits when it ships in 2003 as promised will make up for the net present value of $35 million all by themselves. I guess if all the developers that count on Take Two for milestone checks are OK with it, then I am too. I don't imagine they are though. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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George: Remedy is not completely independent of financial pressure from any publisher. and Remedy is as independent today as they were yesterday. Since those two statements contradict each other, I'm gonna guess that you meant to not include the "not" in the first statement. Anyway, this looks like a win-win-win for everyone involved. 3DR and Remedy get some money, and Take 2 gets a franchise that makes a killing (especially when they release MP2 for the Playstation2). -RAWWWWWRRRRRR!!! Quit cramping my style, bitch! RAAAAAWWWRRRR!!!
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In 2003! Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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#105: I just finished Vanilla Sky, and I liked it. I'm very Anti-Cruise, and I still enjoyed the film. I did however notice the end credits on the film that it's a remake of a recent French film. No wonder the French hate us so, we takes their good movies and put Tom Cruise in them! Also, The Gift by Sam Raimi was pretty good too. Watched that one last night. Vanilla sky is based on a Spanish movie. And The Gift is pretty good.. Blanchett is a HOTTIE |
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The original was in development for a long time, but that didnt stop people from buying it once it was released. Funny, but I thought 2003 was in just about 7 months, not the eternity you seem to be making it out to be. -RAWWWWWRRRRRR!!! Quit cramping my style, bitch! RAAAAAWWWRRRR!!!
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I tell ya, IPs are absolutely WORTHLESS!!! |
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And just for the lazy, the article is about "an independent marketing consultant named Bob Kolody who claims he owns the copyright to an image that has been used on Coke Classic cans since 1993." So the guy is taking coke to court, for what has "evolved into a $4 billion lawsuit." Peanut money, is what I say. |
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Matthew IP's are worth gold, yet idea men are worthless. This sentence has been bothering me because I almost wanted to agree with it. Then I realized why I couldn't. Idea < Intellectual Property Ideas are the foundation of IP, but without any work done. Once the idea starts to become actualized, it grows from an idea to IP. But without that work, it's worth is little. It's like ferrous rock. It's not worth much, but once you refine the iron out of it, then you have something of value. Funk. |
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wizard How can you not understand the hate directed towards 3DR and this IP? It has the three main factors it takes for internet hate bandwagon to start up. So it has nothing to do with babies and balsamic vinagrette dressing? I'm so very disappointed. Funk. |
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IP = 1% idea man + 99% hard work. |
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#30 Max, I'm sorry to hear I've fallen short of my goal where 3DR is concerned. Oh wait. Perhaps it's referring to Max Diablos? Did he come to PC from 3DR or something? What the hell is that about? As for the "Max Payne" deal I thought the best thing for Remedy to do after Max Payne was something else entirely. This deal gets shot of the whole thing, sets them up with some cash, and frees them to work on other things once Max Payne 2 is done and dusted. If I'd been Remedy I wouldn't have been happy sharing IP rights anyway. Take 2 must've been nuts to splash out the amount they did. I'd rather spend a fraction of that developing new IP. The world has enough copy cats and sequels. No helter skelter. No over the rainbow bad trip apocalypse. Just us and this moment now. This is how it ends.
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Max Diablos: No helter skelter. No over the rainbow bad trip apocalypse. Just us and this moment now. This is how it ends. What's that from? It sounds familiar... Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
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Neale, A story that appeared recently in 2000 AD. Storming Heaven (Episode 7). No helter skelter. No over the rainbow bad trip apocalypse. Just us and this moment now. This is how it ends.
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yeah but Matt, I just don't think Take Two is getting shafted on this deal. They could release a box of corn flakes for the PS2, call it Max Payne, Now with Riboflavin, and make the money back. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Greg, Since those two statements contradict each other, I'm gonna guess that you meant to not include the "not" in the first statement. Should have been "now". LPMiller, yeah but Matt, I just don't think Take Two is getting shafted on this deal. They could release a box of corn flakes for the PS2, call it Max Payne, Now with Riboflavin, and make the money back. Yup. Matthew just has no idea what's going on. He has little idea how successful GTA has been and how much cash it's generated. Big publishers make deals like this all the time, and buyout companies all day long. I'm sure Matthew also thought buying DMA for 15 million or so might have been a bad idea. After all, all they ever made was a little 2d scroller called Grand Theft Auto. Seems like a lot of money to pay for that. |
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George Take Two is betting on the future with the Max Payne buyout... I guess not all of us see Max Payne as that useful of product. If the next game comes and out and is a horrible game, or even just bad, there goes the IP. *shrugs* On the other side, I assume they've seen what's planned for the next game, probably even seen part of it already running and know it's not going to be a stinker. LPMiller - "Really, I'm just a get along kinda a guy, all about the love."
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Take Two is betting on the future with the Max Payne buyout... That goes without saying. Be it Doom, Half Life, Max, The Sims, whatever. If you buy and IP you are betting that you can keep it going in the future. That's just a fact. I don't see it as good or bad. If the next game comes and out and is a horrible game, or even just bad, there goes the IP. This isn't true at all. I'd argue that the truly only good Tomb Raider game was the first. Maybe the second. The 3rd-5th were shamless retreads. It didn't really hurt Tomb Raider. In reality it takes a lot more than one average, or even bad game, to kill a franchise. In fact I'd aruge that as long at there is name recognition, a franchise can always be ressurected with a good game. Like I said above, look at James Bond. Or even the Alien movie series. IMO, Alien 3 and 4 sucked hard. But would I go see Alien 5? You bet. There's the value of the franchise. |
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Obviously I'm just speculating. I thought everyone knew that. I'm just saying what I see: a publisher paying $35 mil to own merchandising rights when games that have sold many multiples of units more than Max couldn't push a movie to profit. Yeah, they got the engine, too. It's a very nice engine. Two years from now it's worthless. Games? I'm not really sure if console gamers are clamoring for a Max sequel: the ratings from the console ports are markedly lower than the PC version. It's not too hard to imagine, given the original's shortness, that anyone who didn't get enough Bullet Time™ the first time just giving it a rental when the sequel rears its head. I'm just saying, it looks like a bad deal. There's not much to indicate that Max Payne has enough legs to be a franchise. 2.75 milllion units is good potential, I really don't think that's worth $35 mil though. But then again, I'm just an unfrozen caveman pundit. Your one-shot gimmicks frighten and confuse me. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Generally, in situations like these, 3DR and company agree *not* to sell Take 2's stock for an agreed length of time. That length of time varies from contract to contract, but a year is typical although it can be longer. That restriction protects Take 2's stock price. Question: A year from now, which will be worth more? Take 2's stock or Max Payne's IP? I know that these stock transactions are typical in a number of contexts, but I really hate them. From atop my molehill, Max Payne is a known quantity. Max Payne 2, barring something weird happening, will be a financial hit. Take 2's stock price -- a year from now? Who knows. There are a thousand things that effect a stock's price, and Take 2 has control over only some of them, and submitting dodgy earnings doesn't help. I want to see developers get PAID in CASH and not in future promises (stock). I know, I know. They did get paid some ($10M). I'm happy for them about that. If Take 2 doesn't have the cash to pay what Max Payne is really worth, then let them sell their own stock to raise the money. |
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_AFFECT_ damnit |
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Speaking of the Resident Evil movie and Max Payne: Did anyone else notice that the "good" male lead (Eric Mabius, I belive) looked a whole fuck of a lot like Mr. Payne? <insert sig here>
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Then he has a bright future ahead of him in the genre of crappy videogame to movie conversions. |
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This isn't true at all. I'd argue that the truly only good Tomb Raider game was the first. Maybe the second. The 3rd-5th were shamless retreads. It didn't really hurt Tomb Raider. In reality it takes a lot more than one average, or even bad game, to kill a franchise. In fact I'd aruge that as long at there is name recognition, a franchise can always be ressurected with a good game. So one big hit, equals a very successful IP? I don't see it like that. What sold Laura? T&A and somewhat interesting/new gameplay. The later ones sold why? T&A. I'm not looking at this with market statistics in my hand, so I could be way off, but do Laura games sell now as well as they use to? No. Even T&A gets old afterwhile. If the next Max Game were to blow, which it probably won't, but if it did... the IP wouldn't be worth much. The next game you make, if it was a spetacular game, call it Max 3 or not and I don't think it would influence your sales much either way. I think the public has a short term memory... if DNF blows, you'll lose a lot of gamers that now see Duke as a game type to buy. Haven't the bad console games shown this? (wzrd doesn't have sales figures, just curious). LPMiller - "Really, I'm just a get along kinda a guy, all about the love."
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a publisher paying $35 mil to own merchandising rights ... I'm just saying, it looks like a bad deal. First, the press release by Take-Two also mentions "future consideration," which puts the real value of the deal in the mid to high $40's. We weren't gonna sell this puppy for anything as low as $35 million, especially with other publishers being strongly interested. Second, it's not a bad deal for either side. Publishers absolutely need strong IP, fully under their control, to have a better guarantee on their future. Activision, for example, hates not owning Id's brands, because for each game they have to go through a big negotiation and they end up paying more and more to Id, and still not having long-term control of planning ability. Take-Two can now plan out a long term strategy for the Max brand, and exploit it in many different ways that were otherwise not available to them. For Remedy, it's a great deal because they are now entirely financially independent and one of the "big boys" in this industry. No one can push them around anymore--they can make the games they want, including future original IPs. Far too few developers enjoy this status. BTW, it's absurd to think 3DR did this for the money to keep DNF going. We only did this because it made sense for us and Remedy (and Take-Two). Truly a win-win-win deal. And, the side-effect is that other developers will realize the real value of original IP. In another forum, for example, I polled several developers and they all grossly undervalued the industry's big IPs. Most developers, it seems, have never looked at the real potential upside of developing their own IP. Watch Id become the next company to sell-off one of their three big IPs, either Quake or Wolf, I predict. And having already talked to one of Id's primary founder/owners about this, it's a very real possibility after our eye-opening deal. "A game should not be judged only on its appearance. It should be played before drawing conclusions." - Miyamoto
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I totally agree, but you always sound like an infomercial, you know that? I'm not ordering your damn tapes already, put I Love Lucy back on. I believe I can fly......urk.
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George Broussard, Scott Miller and co. Curious: What is the earliest date you can sell the Take 2 stock? |
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IP sales are good news for superdevelopers like 3DR, and great news for gamers! get ready for loads of sequels, produced by people besides the original creators, under a brand that said creators didn't care enough about to hold on to in the first place! why, if there were more people with the moneymaking savvy of 3DR in this industry, it'd be a font of innovation! |
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We need to get ip's back on PC. Not intellectual property, mind you. |
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