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Max no longer a payne for 3D Realms
May 24th 2002, 18:09 CEST by Matt Davis Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. has Announced Max Payne 2 Is In Development, and in something of a surprise they've also purchased Max Payne's Intellectual Property Rights from Remedy Entertainment and Apogee Software for the measly sum of $10 million in cash and 969,932 shares of restricted common stock. Take-Two also announced that it has acquired ownership of the Max Payne brand and all intellectual property rights associated with the brand, including trademarks, copyrights, characters, perpetual license to utilize proprietary technologies, including the Max Payne game engine and associated "Bullet Time(TM)" technology, and rights to license fees from ancillary Max Payne brand extensions such as cinema, television and literary productions. You can see the full statement here So is this some pocket money for George and Scott? Does this to allow DNF to stay in development for longer? or did Apogee decide that theres room for only one virtual ego in the office? |
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Topic: Max no longer a payne for 3D Realms
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If Max Payne goes for 10 million, how the hell much is the Grand Theft Auto brand worth? |
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"Erik" Hopefully enough for them to hold onto and keep making such great games. I don't know bout anyone else, but Take2 buying the IP to Max just puts of a bright flashing neon sign that says, "Max is going to be pimped everyway we can now!". LPMiller - "Really, I'm just a get along kinda a guy, all about the love."
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You mean the way that 3DRealms do ? Seriously, I've always been the first to point out that just cos Scott (and sometimes George) bangs on about the IP/brand aspect of Duke doesn't necessarily mean that DNF will be crap because there are other people working on it, who are possibly more dedicated to their art. But when I read shit like this, I really do wonder. Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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The really funny aspect of Scott's branding rants is that 3D Realms has allowed quite a few really, really, REALLY bad Duke Nukem games to be released since the original Duke3D (mostly console games). The flipside of branding is that if you keep hoisting shit onto the public they will eventually stop eating it no matter how well you brand it. Smashing!
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72: Hey, someone needs to tell that to 3DO so they'll stop the number of Army Men titles at 34 (or whatever it is at now) "My main objective is to be professional but to kill him. That's what it comes to. He should want to kill me because I want to kill him. But I still love him." -Mike Tyson, waxing philosophic about Lennox Lewis.
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Chris Johnson: thank god they didn't stop at Army Men 33, because Army Men: RTS is big fun. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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"I wouldn't touch Take 2 stock with a ten foot pole right now." You're kidding, right? They own the IP for GTA, Max, Railroad Tycoon, Tropico, State of Emergency, etc., and they're publishing Duke Nukem Forever. Take 2 is hot now. Remedy is working on Max 2, Crash. That's next for them. They're independant, but I'm sure they're contractually obligated to do Max 2. After that, who knows? |
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Take 2 might be hot in terms of the game 'brands' Scott likes to talk about, but you are aware of course they are under investigation by SEC? Accounting practices? Looks like a mini-Enron brewing? If you want the Take 2 stock, fine...buy it! Smashing!
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Where's that fake Broussard when we need him? |
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I'd actually argue that Mortal Kombat was a good movie There was a sequel to it... Is it the crap action flick with Chris Lambert? It was an abomination...it made me laugh all the time... The cheese was strong in this one... I didn't bother with even renting the sequel though... Street Fighter too, it also made me laugh, unintendedly... Look it's the red hokey gimp team that gets shot at by the blue team, in the homo-herotic locker room! |
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I just caught part of Double Dragon on TV the other night. I'm still in shock. ....Don't be Left with the chimps. Evolve with us...
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If Max Payne goes for 10 million, how the hell much is the Grand Theft Auto brand worth? Take Two already own all of the GTA brand, have done since the days of the first game. Picked it all up for a bargain price too. |
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Sounds like they "positioned" a good chunk of cash into 3dRealm's coffers. --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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I'm not gonna post in this thread again...but... [q]So, how much of the 10 million cash do you figure was kicked back to the Take Two guys who brokered the deal?[/q] Zero. It was 3DR and Remedy who initiated the deal. Matt Davis, [q]measly sum of $10 million in cash and 969,932 shares of restricted common stock. [/q] Measly? $10M cash. The stock is worth $26M now. And there are considerable "development incentives". All told, the deal will be worth in the mid 40's. That's what Shiny sold their entire company, ip's, The Matrix rights, and tied up Dave Perry for long term contracts. Remedy and 3DR walk away from this 100% intact and Remedy is not completely independent of financial pressure from any publisher. The plan was to probably sell Max after a second game anyway, but after the first game sold so well (2.7 million units and counting), we all thought that now was a good time to sell the franchise. Maybe it will be worth far more in the future. Maybe not. But this was a guaranteed bird in the had, and again, it set Remedy up for life. |
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Crash, what happens to Remedy? do they work for Take 2 now, or 3DR, or both? Remedy is as independent today as they were yesterday. the only reference in the PR was the "working on MP2 in conjunction with Remedy Entertainment." so what, are they consulting on it or something? Remedy and 3DR will finish Max 2 for Take 2 like we did with Max 1. Exact same situation. Nutty, After doling out vengence for killing your family, what could Max Payne possibly do in Max Payne 2 that would be worthwhile? Go after some street pimps? Sam Lake has written an excellent plot for the second game. It's all taken care of. I wouldn't touch Take 2 stock with a ten foot pole right now. They still have all sorts of things to worry about regarding their accounting troubles, SEC investigations, etc, etc. You're missing out on free money then. Take 2 is doing better than most everyother game company, on stock, at the moment. Max 2, GTA 4 and other upcoming games ensure that success. |
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I'm also amazed at the biased slant of this article. This is a great deal for Remedy and 3DR and it's a great deal for all developers. It demonatrates what Scott and I have said for years. IP's are worth gold. You don't have to sell your entire company, and give up independence, and sign long term work agreements. You just have to build a successful ip and hold onto it until the time is right. I only hope that other developers see this and think twice before selling their entire company and tying themselves up for 3-5 years. |
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IP's are worth gold, yet idea men are worthless. Funny how that works, eh? Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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It's about friggin' time someone besides mOnty got a shot a topic. All mOnty's crap boils down to the same phrases, the same adjectives, the same desperate stretch for mundane, prolixious verbosity regarding a stupid premise. BTW, 3DRealms couldn't manage a chicken shit scavenger hunt in a Taiwanese monastary. Now we're gonna make a new rule. When you hear me typing..."
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When things like this happen, you really have little choice but to acknoledge that whatever it is they are doing, it works really, really well. Fortunately, I've never put up as much resistance as others. Tomorrow morning, I don't imagine any of us, in fact, all of us combined would win a bank account competition with them. Compared to our words and ideas, they have concrete proof of their concepts. © 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
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Shadaar, If you can sell something as ephemeral as intellectual property for $35 million, I say good on ya. I personally think Scott overstates the value of branding, but if he can con Take 2 into coughing up like this he deserves a pat on the back. This shows just how little people understand the value of an ip. You know that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was sold for $100 million? IP's are the most valuable thing out there. They are what make large movie companies, or music companies wealthy beyond compare. It's interesting to note that Michael Jackson bought the rights to all the Beatles songs for something like $45M. When Raven was sold for 12million or so it was mainly for the studio. They could have gotten far, far more if they had any real hit brands. Westwood sold for over $100M, but they had C&C and a couple other brands (plus a couple hundred person studio). Recently, Ensemble was sold for something like $100M to Micosoft. That was the Age brand, plus an 80 person studio and nice million dollar office space. But all of the above companies could have sold the brands for slightly less, and still maintained their companies and independence and probably been working on new games now. But now they are owned, lock, stock and barrel. id, Epic or Valve could sell ip's for massive amounts of money. I bet CounterStrike is worth more than Max is. |
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This shows just how little people understand the value of an ip. You know that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was sold for $100 million? Note that a valuable IP does not guarantee a valuable end product. Life without shame.
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George, the problem I'd have with buying IP only is that without the original developers, how can I be sure that the IP will hold its value? Brands fade. Is Tomb Raider worth what it once was? How good is the Total Annihilation IP if TA2 is being developed in Korea instead of by Chris Taylor? If I were Take 2, I think I would have locked Remedy and 3DRealms into at least a couple of Max games. Heck, look at how fast the IP for Myth fell apart after Bungie was no longer handling it. Take 2 owns the Myth IP and they destroyed it with one crappy game. Gamers aren't stupid. They know the magic in Myth came from Bungie. I think Take 2 overpaid for what they got. They should have locked you into at least a Max Payne 3. |
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Nothing lasts forever, but this was a great move for all parties. Max 2, unless it's programmed by blind midgets using only small stones to represent binary code, will be a sure fire hit. Even if it is the exact same game, it will be a hit. Plus, Remedy and 3DR are still Remedy and 3DR, not "A division of Take Two". How much is independence worth, anyway? So take two gets future earnings, and the devs get cash in hand now, cash in hand when they ship, and a lot less hassle. I don't see the problem. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Street Fighter 2, the Japanase anime... now that rocked.. |
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The 'Japanese' one was cool also.. |
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thank god they didn't stop at Army Men 33, because Army Men: RTS is big fun. Perhaps so, but it could have easily been another RTS with an original idea for the background of it, and gotten rid of 32 other really bad Army Men titles in the interim. I think Take 2 overpaid for what they got. They should have locked you into at least a Max Payne 3. The beauty of that is, Take 2 needs to worry about that. Plus they don't necessarily have to have someone besides Remedy do a Max3, if they decide to do one. It's perfectly feasible that Remedy could say, "Yeah, why not, let's do a third go 'round with Max, the little nipper." It's just now, they don't HAVE to. That's a beautiful thing, really. (How does first right of refusal work with Remedy/Max anyways, if you can say, people in the know?) Q:How man surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Fish! |
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I hear Japanase is good on sandwiches, and in Europe they eat their French Fries with it. Q:How man surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Fish! |
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Look, it's not like George or Scott somehow owe you guys anything or have broken some sacred covenant with you and the rest of gamerdom because they decide they want to be successful and make money. I swear people act like 3DR is some type of fucking demon shitspawn. Let them do whatever they want, whether that be making games or acting as an associate producer to other game developers. What do you want them to do, come out and ask all of gamerdom if its okay whenever they make a business decision? Discussions like this amuse me . . . "It's a bird! It's a plane! Oh shit, It knows we're home!"
-Chris Johnson |
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But....but most of these folks would dry up and whither to nothing if they couldn't rag on 3DR. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Chris.. I hear Japanase is good on sandwiches, and in Europe they eat their French Fries with it Just say no |
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Yeah, it's not like a crazy deal made by a publisher with one developer has ever had an effect on the other developers associated with that publisher before, has it? I mean, sure they bought what amounts to an engine and an AWESOME NAME with 3% of their total market capitalization, but it's only 3%! They could do that, like, 30 more times! Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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So who are you gonna sell Duke Nukem to? --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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I think the "measly" part was meant sarcastically, but with cynicism the way it is on the internet I can hardly tell anymore. It mentions Take Two has the rights to the engine and "Bullet Time(TM) technology". Does that mean Remedy (I'm assuming they're doing MP2) would have to license their own engine from them? Maybe not for MP2, since that was probably started before the deal, but what about future games? That $35 million price does sound steep, it sounds like Take Two didn't really get much for the deal. Hopefully they'll be around to see the fruits of their investment. "God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900 |
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I'm not gonna post in this thread again...but... When you decide to completely not post in a thread what do we get? Four pages worth? --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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George Broussard Take 2 is shorting the hell out of their stock. Sell it before it goes underwater. |
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IP is flesh. Where's the bones? Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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I just finished Vanilla Sky, and I liked it. I'm very Anti-Cruise, and I still enjoyed the film. I did however notice the end credits on the film that it's a remake of a recent French film. No wonder the French hate us so, we takes their good movies and put Tom Cruise in them! Also, The Gift by Sam Raimi was pretty good too. Watched that one last night. ....Don't be Left with the chimps. Evolve with us...
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Hulka's approval brought to you by Cameron Diaz's dietary habits. Life without shame.
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what about a DOOM movie made with the DOOM III engine ? |
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God bless George. I'm not gonna post in this thread again...but... ... followed by three more long posts. So now does Scott get to come in and tell George to STFU and take the name of our Lord in vain? |
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So who are you gonna sell Duke Nukem to? Michael Bay. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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In any case, it is impossible to truly judge the relative strength of the positions of TTWO, 3DR and Remedy without going through the small print of the agreement with a fine toothcomb. I would imagine that there are obligations and programming contracts that would make the picture look a lot more balanced when everything is taken into consideration. |
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So who are you gonna sell Duke Nukem to? It's allready long been sold to Acti-Black-Hole-Realms pit of Time-Warp-Vision.Inc, The company that loops the game development process back where it started, at every new engine release... Forever! |
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Post-it Look, it's not like George or Scott somehow owe you guys anything or have broken some sacred covenant with you and the rest of gamerdom because they decide they want to be successful and make money. I'm with you. I really do not understand all of the vehemance directed to 3D Realms. I mean, it's not like they eat babies in a nice Balsamic Vinagrette, or they kick little kids in the testicles. They make games, and sell IPs. None of it has any relevance on the cost of bread in my neighborhood. Has anyone here been hurt in any way by what they've done? If they have, I don't see it, and I would change my tune if someone can illustrate a way that they've hurt someone. Funk. |
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PostIt, Funk: How can you not understand the hate directed towards 3DR and this IP? It has the three main factors it takes for internet hate bandwagon to start up. One, they are successful. Plain and simple. Two, they have a game in development that they've already said will own up and down AND is taking a LONG time to produce. Scott/George may or may not be right about this, but the fact they've come out and said how good it will be is gives people something to whine and bitch about. Three, at least Scott (I haven't seen it so much from George) is a very arrogant person. Whether this is justified or whether it's not arrogance and just a confidence doesn't matter. If you were to take any two of those you'd have the bandwagon starting up. Take all 3 and you've got a Super Duper Hate Fest(tm). Personally, I'm looking forward to DNF just because it could be good. That's enough to make me take a look at reviews/demos/etc when it comes out. Just like any game. I don't believe in bandwagons and hence I don't hate 3DR, Microsoft, Linux Users, Annoying People, etc... LPMiller - "Really, I'm just a get along kinda a guy, all about the love."
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Yeah, it's not like a crazy deal made by a publisher with one developer has ever had an effect on the other developers associated with that publisher before, has it? I mean, sure they bought what amounts to an engine and an AWESOME NAME with 3% of their total market capitalization, but it's only 3%! They could do that, like, 30 more times! Uh, I'm missing something. So if other devs do this, it would be a bad thing? We don't want devs making money, and possibly sticking it to publishers - whom we don't like anyway? I believe I can fly......urk.
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Buying stock in anything Broussard says is like pounding sand down a rathole. Money burnin' a hole in your pocket? Pour it into some imaginary stew. After all, we're supposed to actually PRODUCE a game called DNF, and yet no one here knows WTF it is. But...BUY STOCK! That's like going to Helen Keller for web design instruction. Now we're gonna make a new rule. When you hear me typing..."
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LPMiller: You actually want publishers to get shafted? How long do you think that could go on? What I'm talking about is a fair deal for dev, pub, and shareholder. It didn't happen here. Sure, 3D Realms and Remedy can now afford to move into Ion Storm's old offices, and even probably score an auxiliary air conditioning system and tint the giant windows so the place isn't a sauna. But Take Two doesn't have bottomless pockets, though they may act like it. Only so much free money can be given out before something actually has to be produced. Only there's not anything as far as actual product that was announced with this deal other than Max Payne 2. Sure, maybe the profits when it ships in 2003 as promised will make up for the net present value of $35 million all by themselves. I guess if all the developers that count on Take Two for milestone checks are OK with it, then I am too. I don't imagine they are though. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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George: Remedy is not completely independent of financial pressure from any publisher. and Remedy is as independent today as they were yesterday. Since those two statements contradict each other, I'm gonna guess that you meant to not include the "not" in the first statement. Anyway, this looks like a win-win-win for everyone involved. 3DR and Remedy get some money, and Take 2 gets a franchise that makes a killing (especially when they release MP2 for the Playstation2). -RAWWWWWRRRRRR!!! Quit cramping my style, bitch! RAAAAAWWWRRRR!!!
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In 2003! Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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