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Views On Reviews
May 28th 2000, 20:41 CEST by andy Sundays are a mixed blessing. They're good because I get a whole day to sit around doing nothing without feeling guilty, but they're bad because I invariably end up so bored that I type www.evilavatar.com into a web browser and feast my eyes on the depth of humanity... Actually, this topic is nothing to do with Evil Avatar, I'm just using it as a lead-in because I don't like the guy and I enjoy making fun of him. Commenting on Daikatana in a recent news item, our beloved Mr Avatar explains how he has nearly finished the game, but will "hold back on making any comments about the product until my official review". Then, in the same paragraph, he comments that "it really is as bad as people thought it might be". Ignoring the untamed stupidity of one web journo (something that 'Crap readers might learn to do one day) this got me thinking: How often are game reviews influenced by something other than the game itself? This is how l'Avatar d'Evil expressed his thoughts about Daikatana reviews on other web sites:
Does he have a point? The way I see it, if I spend the next six weeks writing a fun little game, and a hundred-strong team spends four years locked in a giant greenhouse with more money than sense and somehow they manage to create a game too, the two games should be judged equally. Shouldn't they? I've not played Daikatana and I haven't read any of the reviews, so I'm going to use Quake 2 as an example. PC Gamer gave that game 96% and splashed "The Best Game Ever" across the cover of the issue it was reviewed in. Did it deserve that sort of praise? It was a huge game with loads of content, some impressive technology, made of course by Id Software, was perhaps the most eagerly anticipated game of the year and had been screaming at us for months that it was going to rock in a major way. But ultimately, it was a mediocre game with, shall we say, more than it's fair share of bugs. I wonder, what exactly was that 96% score based on? Was it the bugs and the mediocrity, or was it simply that people were expecting a good review? I'm sure there are lots of other examples but I very rarely read reviews, so that's why I'm starting a thread about this to see what you guys think. Are reviews affected by reader expectations, game backgrounds, and of course the fact that a lot of reviewers are on friendly terms with the developers? |
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<b>#75</b> "flamethrower" wrote... <QUOTE>What if... you DID trash JR, as you have every right in "JOHN ROMERO'S DAIKATANA", how would Edios treat you next time? Maybe you won't get that Deux Ex gold as quickly as the others... something to think about perhaps. </QUOTE> Or, maybe you'll get it faster. Look, when he said that to me, it had nothing to do with the Deus Ex gold, it was his way of saying, "yeah, I know Daikatana's not great, just try to be objective." ...and that's what I plan on doing, although if the damn thing isn't here in a few days, I'm just going to run out and expense it like all the other reviewers here have done. :) Oh, and for the record: PC Gamer does use a lot of freelance guys for reviews, but they've stopped using most of them...according to their editor-in-chief, they've all gotten too bitter to be writing reviews of current games. -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>(I know, I know, you liked the game... but yeesh, I had to restart one level when my sidekicks disappeared, and now I can't finish the game because they won't walk through an open door... and I can't get through it either.) </quote> I didn't say I 'liked it', but my action-oriented background which is centered towards first-person-shooters enjoyed playing it. (Maybe the genre bias is kicking in) CGO has always been a very strict site with scores, so the 1.5 stars does not shock or even surprise me. |
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<b>#4</b> "Apache" wrote... <QUOTE>when writing a game review, it's important not to let other people's opinions (peer pressure is bad, mmmkay?) affect your writing. most writers have a system to score games or some even just go with a 'gut' feeling. anyhoo-- if you'd like to read my review of daikatana, clickity-click. </QUOTE> I couldn't agree more but it is SO hard to do this with Daikatana. I've yet to get hold of a copy since I live in the UK (should be sent here soonish though) but I'm really finding it hard to just clear my mind of all of the PR crap that has preceeded the release of Daiaktana so I can give it a fair review. We've been hearing of the game for years now and I think most people got sick of hearing about it at least a year ago. And if the first level of the demo is also the first level of the game then it gets off to a REALLY bad start. Apart from the reasonable geometry the lighting was some horrible bright green (how many swamps are bright green ffs) and the robot frogs and bugs were HORRID. Please tell me it gets better.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#22</b> "Apache" wrote... <QUOTE>eidos didn't send us a gold master, either. a good indicator of how far a reviewer got into the game are the screen shots. if they're from the first few levels only, chances are they did not get very far. really, the only offensive review of DK I've read was the Maximum PC review. btw- I just went to see "Mission Impossible II"... I think I know why the guys from 3DR did not like it :) </QUOTE> Not neccessarily. I actually make an effort to avoid that, especially if its likely to spoil something for the reader. I've yet to review something I didn't complete though before the acusations start to fly. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#24</b> "Apache" wrote... <QUOTE>The 3DR might not like MI-2 because I "think" it gives away a huge chunk of DNF's story, just from comparing one of the released screen shots to a certain scene where Ethan was donning a "special item". I don't want to spoil anything for Duke, (in case I'm correct) so I'll just leave it at that. </QUOTE> Ah crap. Thanks Apache. Now I have to unpeel my butt from this chair and actually see the movie. :) It would be a bit of a piss off though if something in their game appeared in a movie because they'd get accused of ripping it off. <i>Obviously</i>.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#25</b> "Apache" wrote... <QUOTE>please ignore my horrible grammer in the above post :) </QUOTE> Gramm<i>A</i>r. ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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damn you pete ;) |
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<b>#68</b> "loonyboi" wrote... <QUOTE>Personally, I liked Unreal single player, at least the first 9,000 or so levels. It just seemed to go on, and on, and on... </QUOTE> The thing I really liked about it was the sense of awe that you (or at least I) got from some of the levels. Wandering out from the cramped space ship to the big <i>outdoors</i> with a gorgeous waterfall in one direction and birds in the sky, the huge sunspire, all of the Bluff Eversmoking level, the sight of the <i>huge</i> alien mothership, your first meeting with a massive Titan... I seriously hope Unreal 2 can provide that same sense of awe that I felt in parts of the original rather than just trying to take bits of good recent FPS titles like Half Life and SS2. I think I'll stop rambling now. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#74</b> "Darkseid" wrote... <QUOTE>Alternate download managers GoZilla (irritating sounds, OPT out needed) NetVampire (free, opt out in there) Flash Get (My choice, OPT out needed) of the above Flashget is the most stable and adept at snagging files Ds</QUOTE> God knows how we got onto this, but I always use and have registered (not because I hate ad ware but because the developers seriously deserved my money) ReGet. Stable, easy to use yet highly configurable. www.reget.com<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#80</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>whoa, Steve's laying down the smack pretty well tonight :) This is what playing Daikatana does to you. (I know, I know, you liked the game... but yeesh, I had to restart one level when my sidekicks disappeared, and now I can't finish the game because they won't walk through an open door... and I can't get through it either.) </QUOTE> Use the console, put noclip on, walk through then mention it in the review. Unless you're not reviewing it in which case no clip through then hate John Romero for it or something. ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>I didn't say I 'liked it', but my action-oriented background which is centered towards first-person-shooters enjoyed playing it. </quote> Hmm, I'd think you'd have to like something to enjoy it... unless it's one of those "it's so bad it's good" kinds of things... |
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<b>#90</b> "Pete Closs" wrote... <QUOTE>The thing I really liked about it was the sense of awe that you (or at least I) got from some of the levels.</QUOTE> Unfortunately that sense of awe only really lasted through the first couple of levels. Remember the awesome scripted events in the first level? The designers didn't. They forgot them completely in the later parts of the game. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<quote>Use the console, put noclip on, walk through then mention it in the review. Unless you're not reviewing it in which case no clip through then hate John Romero for it or something. </quote> Well, I can assure you I never would have survived the first episode if I wasn't reviewing it... everyone else in our office gave up because it's REALLY bad, one of the worst FPS experiences I've ever seen. We're talking like Corridor 7 bad. But it does get better. |
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steve: to me, first person shooters are like pizza, even when they're bad, they're still pretty good. :) |
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<b>#94</b> "Dethstryk" wrote... <QUOTE>#90 "Pete Closs" wrote... The thing I really liked about it was the sense of awe that you (or at least I) got from some of the levels. Unfortunately that sense of awe only really lasted through the first couple of levels. Remember the awesome scripted events in the first level? The designers didn't. They forgot them completely in the later parts of the game. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming </QUOTE> This is true. I think CliffyB mentioned regretting not including more of that throughout the game a while back.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#96</b> "Apache" wrote... <QUOTE>steve: to me, first person shooters are like pizza, even when they're bad, they're still pretty good. :) </QUOTE> You did try the Mortyr demo, right? :p<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Pete: Mortyr was on a whole different level of 'badness' compared to Daikatana :) (we scored that at a 40, btw) |
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<quote>steve: to me, first person shooters are like pizza, even when they're bad, they're still pretty good. :) </quote> Well, I'm with you there on pizza, but I don't do food reviews, heh heh. If I said they were all good, it wouldn't be particularly useful for the pizza connoisseur... |
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steve: well, a 77 isn't really a good score, that's like getting a "C" for effort in grade-school. :) |
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<b>#97</b> "Pete Closs" wrote... <QUOTE>This is true. I think CliffyB mentioned regretting not including more of that throughout the game a while back.</QUOTE> It's a shame, too. The first two levels of Unreal made me effectively wet my pants with joy. (If that kind of thing is possible.) The first level shocked with the awesome scripted sequences, and the second level with its sheer beauty. After that, what? Nothing. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#101</b> "Apache" wrote... <QUOTE>well, a 77 isn't really a good score, that's like getting a "C" for effort in grade-school. :)</QUOTE> Man, and if all the games out there were considered a class, it would be considered one crappy education system, too. A few bright students, and a horde of the "special" children. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<quote>steve: well, a 77 isn't really a good score, that's like getting a "C" for effort in grade-school. :) </quote> True, but that's why I hate the percentage system... that would be nearly a 4-star rating on a five-star system. Since no one uses the entire rating range in that system (anything below a 60% is just degrees of bad), it's really a 70-100% system. But I could write novels on ratings systems and why certain sites' (particularly Gamespot's) fall under the "very bad things" category. (Short version: Gamespot uses a weighted system that averages a bunch of arbitrary numbers that ends up creating an artificially high arbitrary final number. There's no way to give, say, a slide show with great graphics and zero gameplay a 1 rating, since the graphics would always boost the score to like 3.1... and a game like Civ II, with mediocre graphics, could get no higher than an 8.8 or so.) |
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Steve: I have to agree on the 1-100 grading system, we've been debating for a couple months to move to a letter grade scale. (With +/-) (for example) A- Must buy, no matter what. B- Quality game C- Average, if you're a fan of the genre pick it up. D- Below Average. F- Utter crap. |
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Letter grades are really identical to stars, so you end up using the entire range of ratings rather than focusing on one end or the other. So I'd say, "Go for it!" You have my blessing. (I know, that's what you were really looking for...) |
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Steve: hehe, thanks :) Stars are somewhat confusing though, I mean if I see a review score based on that system, I translate the stars into a percentage. Is a 2.5 star score equal to a 50% (which is a F) or is it 'average'? it is a bit confusing. |
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<quote>Stars are somewhat confusing though, I mean if I see a review score based on that system, I translate the stars into a percentage. Is a 2.5 star score equal to a 50% (which is a F) or is it 'average'? it is a bit confusing. </quote> Oh c'mon, it's what nearly every review system has used for zillions of years (yes zillions). And it matches up perfectly with letter grades. 1 star=wretched=F 2 stars=bad=D 3 stars=average=C 4 stars=good=B 5 stars=superb=A 1/2 stars add some coloring for those games that just don't quite fit... |
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well an interesting thread to say the least, and well having succumb to buying a game off a review i'll hafta pipe in. i've bought a few games off of reviews. Shogo (which i love, and still love to death), Half-Life (um i play it daily, or well i play CS daily) and just today Motocross Madness 2, which having only played it for a bit is damn fun, it's got damn good graphics, the play modes are fun, albeit somewhat hard to nail at first, and if i only had a damned controller i'd be in heaven. Trying to pull the stunt tricks off with the keyboard is insanely hard. But I picked up MCM2 for a few reasons. I enjoyed the first one quite a bit, but was upset at the lack of tracks. I had seen screenies of it and it looked damned good. I'm a racing game addict, gimme any game and i'll be happy...for a bit. And having read some of the first impressions on various sites and each of them singing it's praises i went down to the local compUSA and bought it. And i'm enjoying it greatly..so for the few reviews i read they seem to be true. My only gripe is the damn cd checker that seems to take forever on my cd-rw drive. But oh well other than that it's insanely fun. now apache talked about reviews for console games..now those, i tend to trust a <i>lot</i> less than PC games. Dunno why but the console mag's always seem to like the super-shitty system-sponsored games. So I stopped taking their word for games a while ago..but I must say I went into the pre-hype surrounding Gran Turismo and well that game never, not once, let me down. I must've played it for hours on end. But like someone said earlier..if you like a specific genere then you'll tend to like those games no matter what, but if you don't..then well i'd look at a review, and then try to play the game myself and <i>then</i> decide if i was going to buy it. Oh and another thing about games and whatnot. There was a Scud: The Disposable Assassin game out not too long ago by Sega. God I so looked forward to that..I finally get my hands on a demo. And I thought I was going to puke my brains out at how shitty it was. So goes to say that no matter how much you look forward to something and/or how much it's hyped try not to believe it all..and if anyone managed to play that game for longer than 10 minutes I hafta ask. How in the hell did you manage? To me that's the worst game i've ever seen..beats Daikatana by a mile.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Hey Pete, do you run Portent.net? Your name is all on the page, and didn't know if it was you or not. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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ok, ok ... |
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I don't recommend a yes/no vote on a game based on just one reviewer, even if the review is well written. Get at least three reviewer's opinions to help even out personal differences. I've used this approach for books and movies for years and found it works very well. Is there a site out there that averages game ratings from site visitors? Lt. Dan did this with Quake levels. I don't know why it couldn't be applied to complete games as well. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Get at least three reviewer's opinions to help even out personal differences. I've used this approach for books and movies for years and found it works very well. </quote> While I agree this is a good system, it still won't tell you if YOU'LL like a game. Sometimes the prevailing public (or editorial) opinion is different from your own... |
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<b>#71</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>By the way, there was no Unreal demo, and we gave it an average review (3/5 rating) because of average single-player and broken multiplayer. It was, I believe, one of the lower ratings it received. And boy did we get hate mail... most of which said things like, "Yeah, the multiplayer is broken, but just wait until the patch..." Or better yet, the people that claimed it was playable on a dialup... it didn't even work well on a LAN. </QUOTE> Is it policy of game reviewers to review by the latest patch or the shipping version? I've seen PC.IGN.COM rate a game, Treadmarks I believe, without the patch and made that grade stick, but made it clear in the review that the patch alleviates some problems and increases the funfactor in the game. I see a problem with that. If a game ships with a problem (gravity, per se) that can easily be fixed (something the boys missed, perhaps), and the patch is available soon after release (say two or three days), what do you do? If the game is completely different experience with the patch than without, do you review the game by itself or the patched version? Does the game deserve a bad rating because of a poor first impression, or does the grade improve because of a timely patch? I hate idiot readers that defend gaming companies like that. The only way to see what's coming is what's actually released to the public. Zealotry of that form is pointless, a stupid debate until the facts are laid out. Have you ever wanted to slap anyone for ragging on your review without pointing at least one or two facts out?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#83</b> "loonyboi" wrote... <QUOTE>Oh, and for the record: PC Gamer does use a lot of freelance guys for reviews, but they've stopped using most of them...according to their editor-in-chief, they've all gotten too bitter to be writing reviews of current games. -jason</QUOTE> Too bitter? Why?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I dont even the last time I let a review decide if I should buy a game or not, maybe before the early 90s I would take a magazine/review for what it said. These days reviews seem like something off of MTV and it sucks. OT: Anyone here sad that Blizzard forgot to feed the hampster powering its Diablo 2 servers for the beta test? :-) |
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<b>#113</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>Get at least three reviewer's opinions to help even out personal differences. I've used this approach for books and movies for years and found it works very well. While I agree this is a good system, it still won't tell you if YOU'LL like a game. Sometimes the prevailing public (or editorial) opinion is different from your own... </QUOTE> I think that in a system like this, disputes could break out over whose right, whose wrong, and who got most of the limelight. Heck, if I trashed a game and two other reviewers loved it, I'd feel outvoted in a way... like, two out of three reviewers agree that it's a good game. The other guy must be on crack for not likin' it, right?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I wrote this on a Planet Daikatana news update relating to the reviews starting to appear, and I thought it was somewhat relevant to this topic. <quote>Readers interested in impartiality in their gaming reviews will find no better metric than what people write about Daikatana in the next few weeks. We'll call this game 'Spot The Bias' :)</quote> Now, this is not referring to <i>negative</i> reviews, but rather <i>biased</i> reviews. IMO, the reviews of Daikatana will draw the line and show which sites do their job professionally, and which ones do not. |
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<quote>Is it policy of game reviewers to review by the latest patch or the shipping version? </quote> Well, I can tell you our policy. We review the game as shipped, and can talk about patches if they're issued during the review period, but the final rating/opinion is based on the shipped product. It used to be easy: before everyone was online, you could say, "Not everyone can apply patches, so it's the shipped version." But reviewing patched versions does sorta endorse the practice, or at least it doesn't condemn shipping buggy software... |
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<b>#108</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>Stars are somewhat confusing though, I mean if I see a review score based on that system, I translate the stars into a percentage. Is a 2.5 star score equal to a 50% (which is a F) or is it 'average'? it is a bit confusing. Oh c'mon, it's what nearly every review system has used for zillions of years (yes zillions). And it matches up perfectly with letter grades. 1 star=wretched=F 2 stars=bad=D 3 stars=average=C 4 stars=good=B 5 stars=superb=A 1/2 stars add some coloring for those games that just don't quite fit... </QUOTE> That's a simple system to grade games. For all the time I've been aware of PC Gamer's percentage system, I haven't liked it for all the reasons stated above. I figured that a percentage system doesn't help gamers decide on what's a good buy or not in the end, since there's only room for ratings of %70-100. Then again, there's no fine-tuning the star system. Say there's a game that's released and it's better than bad but not quite average. It deserves higher than 2.5 but not above a 3. Do you stick it with the 2.5 or the 3? Am I making things up just to be complicated or sound sophistocated?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#113</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>Sometimes the prevailing public (or editorial) opinion is different from your own... </QUOTE> That really does sum it all up quite nicely. It's hard to look at reviews and make a decision based on their opinions, when I know that as a whole they have differed greatly from mine in the past (re: Half-Life and Unreal, to name a couple). Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>I think that in a system like this, disputes could break out over whose right, whose wrong, and who got most of the limelight.</quote> Well yeah, that could be a problem, then there's the logistical problem of tripling your review load. And with reader voting, of "ballot stuffing" (even if you restrict it to one vote per IP address)... No system is perfect. If readers REALLY want multiple opinions, they're best off with consulting multiple sources. |
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<quote>Am I making things up just to be complicated or sound sophistocated</quote> I rarely get too worked up over a rating between like 2.5 and 3... in those cases, I usually go with the lower rating. Ultimately, both mean similar things, that this game is flawed but assuming you either are REALLY into that style of game or the flaws don't matter, go for it. Because you have to remember the most important part of a rating. It's completely meaningless without the accompanying text, which supplies all of the "whys"... |
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<b>#118</b> "Gwog" wrote... <QUOTE>I wrote this on a Planet Daikatana news update relating to the reviews starting to appear, and I thought it was somewhat relevant to this topic. Readers interested in impartiality in their gaming reviews will find no better metric than what people write about Daikatana in the next few weeks. We'll call this game 'Spot The Bias' :) Now, this is not referring to negative reviews, but rather biased reviews. IMO, the reviews of Daikatana will draw the line and show which sites do their job professionally, and which ones do not. </QUOTE> People by nature are biased, and thus, reviews are going to be biased. That's how stuff is liked and disliked. Things about the game may appeal to one reviewer than another, or someone may pan the damn game 'cause of a few showstopping bugs (that are supposedly going to be fixed in an upcoming patch). Others may not run into it. With all these varying factors and tastes, how are reviews supposed to be non-biased? And how are reviewers that clearly state their biases to their readers (say one reviewer is hard-assed about bugs and thinks they're inexcusable and another has a relaxed take on bugs that aren't show-stoppers) any less professional than the ones that stick to the facts?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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While the multiple reviewer concept isn't perfect, it can be refined over time. Example: You find that a certain reviewer always has a contrary opinion to your own on most games. Get rid of that reviewer and find another to add to your "pool" of favorite reviewers. This could take a while, depending upon how often you buy games. Even playing demos isn't perfect since the demo will not show all aspects of the game. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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MoodyAllen: when I use the word bias, I'm not talking about game-specific elements. An example of what I'm talking about would be someone who didn't like the "Make you my bitch" ad from FOUR YEARS AGO, and using that as their criteria to judge the game. |
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<b>#124</b> "MoodyAllen" wrote... <QUOTE>With all these varying factors and tastes, how are reviews supposed to be non-biased? </QUOTE> They can't be. Whether it's emotional ranting and raving or methodical evaluation, some kind of bias is present. So, don't look for unbiased reviews. Look for reviews that reflect your own biases. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#126</b> "Gwog" wrote... <QUOTE>MoodyAllen: when I use the word bias, I'm not talking about game-specific elements. An example of what I'm talking about would be someone who didn't like the "Make you my bitch" ad from FOUR YEARS AGO, and using that as their criteria to judge the game. </QUOTE> You mean someone taking into account that the game took 3-4 years of development and people chose to suffer through lame advertising schemes? I see your point. Instead of playing the game, some people may be out to prove that ION Storm didn't deliver on what they promised or what a 4-year-old game "should" look like. I agree that such reviews are lame. I'm interested in what the game is like, not some reviewer's take on the melodrama.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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So, hmm, Scud, you decided to name yourself after the worst game you ever played? How sad is that? :) |
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Hey all you reviewers out there I have a question. When I used to actually read reviews I tried to stay as far away from ones that just gave a single score ala ... <QUOTE>1 star=wretched=F 2 stars=bad=D 3 stars=average=C 4 stars=good=B 5 stars=superb=A </QUOTE> I used always go via sites/magazines that had some sort of segmented rating system. ie you would get a rating on a game via a number of factors .. ie * gameplay * visuals * audio * story * compatability ... etc ... Then most of these sites would give a rundown on why they gave a particular score to category. (ie GameX rated lowly on visuals because in situation A there was a a slowdown, and there was artefacts in level1, 2 and 3 etc). I know in some cases not all these factors are relevant (ie Quake* would get a N/A for story :P). I still see this occasionally except not with the explanation. Most of them say it got "way kewl" graphics and give it a 4/5 or whatever. I can see some negatives of this system. Scores tend to be normalised so you get very few 90% games and very few 10% games and thus it may have less wow-factor but is there anything else that is wrong with this system. (ie Why don't I see it anymore ?:P)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>I used always go via sites/magazines that had some sort of segmented rating system. ie you would get a rating on a game via a number of factors ..</quote> Ugh, as someone who actually spends time "writing" my reviews, I loathe this sort of formulaic approach. Not that I'm some brilliant writer, but I want the freedom to cover all of those elements in my own way, not in some "at a glance" formatted piece. They make writing the review incredibly boring. And it's really a way for people to skip a lot of the text. But more importantly, I don't like it because it basically says games can be chopped into little bits and evaluated that way. Sorry, but a game is more than the sum of its parts. |
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Post #67 Apache wrote <quote>Full-time Associate editors (at least here) start off in the low 35-40k a year range. </quote> I'm sorry that is sick. Teachers don't make that much starting out, rookie cops don't make that much and they put their lives on the line everyday. The average burger flipper could write game reviews. They make about 11k a year. I really could go off in to full rant mode but I won't. Happy Cow (more like disturbed cow, you guys got a sick little country here)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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