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Views On Reviews
May 28th 2000, 20:41 CEST by andy

Sundays are a mixed blessing. They're good because I get a whole day to sit around doing nothing without feeling guilty, but they're bad because I invariably end up so bored that I type www.evilavatar.com into a web browser and feast my eyes on the depth of humanity...



Actually, this topic is nothing to do with Evil Avatar, I'm just using it as a lead-in because I don't like the guy and I enjoy making fun of him.

Commenting on Daikatana in a recent news item, our beloved Mr Avatar explains how he has nearly finished the game, but will "hold back on making any comments about the product until my official review". Then, in the same paragraph, he comments that "it really is as bad as people thought it might be".

Ignoring the untamed stupidity of one web journo (something that 'Crap readers might learn to do one day) this got me thinking: How often are game reviews influenced by something other than the game itself?

This is how l'Avatar d'Evil expressed his thoughts about Daikatana reviews on other web sites:

[They] range from outright bashing to saying it is just plain "average". I have seen a couple of scores in the 70% range, but I really think that most of those sites were just being kind and if a game of this quality came out without all the hype and back-story, most reviewers would have lambasted it good without a second thought.

Does he have a point?

The way I see it, if I spend the next six weeks writing a fun little game, and a hundred-strong team spends four years locked in a giant greenhouse with more money than sense and somehow they manage to create a game too, the two games should be judged equally. Shouldn't they?

I've not played Daikatana and I haven't read any of the reviews, so I'm going to use Quake 2 as an example. PC Gamer gave that game 96% and splashed "The Best Game Ever" across the cover of the issue it was reviewed in. Did it deserve that sort of praise?

It was a huge game with loads of content, some impressive technology, made of course by Id Software, was perhaps the most eagerly anticipated game of the year and had been screaming at us for months that it was going to rock in a major way.

But ultimately, it was a mediocre game with, shall we say, more than it's fair share of bugs.

I wonder, what exactly was that 96% score based on? Was it the bugs and the mediocrity, or was it simply that people were expecting a good review?

I'm sure there are lots of other examples but I very rarely read reviews, so that's why I'm starting a thread about this to see what you guys think. Are reviews affected by reader expectations, game backgrounds, and of course the fact that a lot of reviewers are on friendly terms with the developers?

C O M M E N T S
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#105 by "Apache"
2000-05-30 05:05:36
Steve: I have to agree on the 1-100 grading system, we've been debating for a couple months to move to a letter grade scale. (With +/-)

(for example)

A- Must buy, no matter what.
B- Quality game
C- Average, if you're a fan of the genre pick it up.
D- Below Average.
F- Utter crap.
#106 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 05:07:02
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
Letter grades are really identical to stars, so you end up using the entire range of ratings rather than focusing on one end or the other.

So I'd say, "Go for it!" You have my blessing. (I know, that's what you were really looking for...)
#107 by "Apache"
2000-05-30 05:17:29
Steve: hehe, thanks :)

Stars are somewhat confusing though, I mean if I see a review score based on that system, I translate the stars into a percentage. Is a 2.5 star score equal to a 50% (which is a F) or is it 'average'? it is a bit confusing.
#108 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 05:28:12
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Stars are somewhat confusing though, I mean if I see a review score based on that system, I translate the stars into a percentage. Is a 2.5 star score equal to a 50% (which is a F) or is it 'average'? it is a bit confusing. </quote>
Oh c'mon, it's what nearly every review system has used for zillions of years (yes zillions). And it matches up perfectly with letter grades.

1 star=wretched=F
2 stars=bad=D
3 stars=average=C
4 stars=good=B
5 stars=superb=A

1/2 stars add some coloring for those games that just don't quite fit...
#109 by "scud"
2000-05-30 05:32:07
scud@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
well an interesting thread to say the least, and well having succumb to buying a game off a review i'll hafta pipe in.

i've bought a few games off of reviews. Shogo (which i love, and still love to death), Half-Life (um i play it daily, or well i play CS daily) and just today Motocross Madness 2, which having only played it for a bit is damn fun, it's got damn good graphics, the play modes are fun, albeit somewhat hard to nail at first, and if i only had a damned controller i'd be in heaven. Trying to pull the stunt tricks off with the keyboard is insanely hard.

But I picked up MCM2 for a few reasons. I enjoyed the first one quite a bit, but was upset at the lack of tracks. I had seen screenies of it and it looked damned good. I'm a racing game addict, gimme any game and i'll be happy...for a bit. And having read some of the first impressions on various sites and each of them singing it's praises i went down to the local compUSA and bought it. And i'm enjoying it greatly..so for the few reviews i read they seem to be true. My only gripe is the damn cd checker that seems to take forever on my cd-rw drive. But oh well other than that it's insanely fun.

now apache talked about reviews for console games..now those, i tend to trust a <i>lot</i> less than PC games. Dunno why but the console mag's always seem to like the super-shitty system-sponsored games. So I stopped taking their word for games a while ago..but I must say I went into the pre-hype surrounding Gran Turismo and well that game never, not once, let me down. I must've played it for hours on end. But like someone said earlier..if you like a specific genere then you'll tend to like those games no matter what, but if you don't..then well i'd look at a review, and then try to play the game myself and <i>then</i> decide if i was going to buy it.

Oh and another thing about games and whatnot. There was a Scud: The Disposable Assassin game out not too long ago by Sega. God I so looked forward to that..I finally get my hands on a demo. And I thought I was going to puke my brains out at how shitty it was. So goes to say that no matter how much you look forward to something and/or how much it's hyped try not to believe it all..and if anyone managed to play that game for longer than 10 minutes I hafta ask. How in the hell did you manage? To me that's the worst game i've ever seen..beats Daikatana by a mile.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#110 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-30 05:32:53
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Hey Pete, do you run Portent.net? Your name is all on the page, and didn't know if it was you or not.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#111 by "Apache"
2000-05-30 05:38:12
ok, ok ...
#112 by "Russ"
2000-05-30 06:21:05
rthcowboy@mindspring.com
I don't recommend a yes/no vote on a game based on just one reviewer, even if the review is well written. Get at least three reviewer's opinions to help even out personal differences. I've used this approach for books and movies for years and found it works very well. Is there a site out there that averages game ratings from site visitors? Lt. Dan did this with Quake levels. I don't know why it couldn't be applied to complete games as well.  <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#113 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 06:29:32
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Get at least three reviewer's opinions to help even out personal differences. I've used this approach for books and movies for years and found it works very well. </quote>
While I agree this is a good system, it still won't tell you if YOU'LL like a game. Sometimes the prevailing public (or editorial) opinion is different from your own...
#114 by "MoodyAllen"
2000-05-30 06:33:41
moodyallen@subdimension.com
<b>#71</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>By the way, there was no Unreal demo, and we gave it an average review (3/5 rating) because of average single-player and broken multiplayer. It was, I believe, one of the lower ratings it received.

And boy did we get hate mail... most of which said things like, "Yeah, the multiplayer is broken, but just wait until the patch..." Or better yet, the people that claimed it was playable on a dialup... it didn't even work well on a LAN. </QUOTE>

Is it policy of game reviewers to review by the latest patch or the shipping version?

I've seen PC.IGN.COM rate a game, Treadmarks I believe, without the patch and made that grade stick, but made it clear in the review that the patch alleviates some problems and increases the funfactor in the game.

I see a problem with that.  If a game ships with a problem (gravity, per se) that can easily be fixed (something the boys missed, perhaps), and the patch is available soon after release (say two or three days), what do you do?  If the game is completely different experience with the patch than without, do you review the game by itself or the patched version?

Does the game deserve a bad rating because of a poor first impression, or does the grade improve because of a timely patch?


I hate idiot readers that defend gaming companies like that.  The only way to see what's coming is what's actually released to the public.  Zealotry of that form is pointless, a stupid debate until the facts are laid out.  Have you ever wanted to slap anyone for ragging on your review without pointing at least one or two facts out?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#115 by "MoodyAllen"
2000-05-30 06:36:52
moodyallen@subdimension.com
<b>#83</b> "loonyboi" wrote...
<QUOTE>Oh, and for the record: PC Gamer does use a lot of freelance guys for reviews, but they've stopped using most of them...according to their editor-in-chief, they've all gotten too bitter to be writing reviews of current games.

-jason</QUOTE>

Too bitter?  Why?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#116 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2000-05-30 06:41:38
ghostinmyshell@worldnet.att.net http://www.freespeech.org/on
I dont even the last time I let a review decide if I should buy a game or not, maybe before the early 90s I would take a magazine/review for what it said. These days reviews seem like something off of MTV and it sucks.

OT: Anyone here sad that Blizzard forgot to feed the hampster powering its Diablo 2 servers for the beta test? :-)
#117 by "MoodyAllen"
2000-05-30 06:46:07
moodyallen@subdimension.com
<b>#113</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Get at least three reviewer's opinions to help even out personal differences. I've used this approach for books and movies for years and found it works very well.

While I agree this is a good system, it still won't tell you if YOU'LL like a game. Sometimes the prevailing public (or editorial) opinion is different from your own... </QUOTE>

I think that in a system like this, disputes could break out over whose right, whose wrong, and who got most of the limelight.  Heck, if I trashed a game and two other reviewers loved it, I'd feel outvoted in a way... like, two out of three reviewers agree that it's a good game.  The other guy must be on crack for not likin' it, right?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#118 by "Gwog"
2000-05-30 06:48:28
gwog@stormtroopers.com http://www.planetdaikatana.com
I wrote this on a Planet Daikatana news update relating to the reviews starting to appear, and I thought it was somewhat relevant to this topic.

<quote>Readers interested in impartiality in their gaming reviews will find no better metric than what people write about Daikatana in the next few weeks. We'll call this game 'Spot The Bias' :)</quote>

Now, this is not referring to <i>negative</i> reviews, but rather <i>biased</i> reviews. IMO, the reviews of Daikatana will draw the line and show which sites do their job professionally, and which ones do not.
#119 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 06:52:45
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Is it policy of game reviewers to review by the latest patch or the shipping version? </quote>
Well, I can tell you our policy. We review the game as shipped, and can talk about patches if they're issued during the review period, but the final rating/opinion is based on the shipped product.

It used to be easy: before everyone was online, you could say, "Not everyone can apply patches, so it's the shipped version." But reviewing patched versions does sorta endorse the practice, or at least it doesn't condemn shipping buggy software...
#120 by "MoodyAllen"
2000-05-30 06:52:50
moodyallen@subdimension.com
<b>#108</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Stars are somewhat confusing though, I mean if I see a review score based on that system, I translate the stars into a percentage. Is a 2.5 star score equal to a 50% (which is a F) or is it 'average'? it is a bit confusing.

Oh c'mon, it's what nearly every review system has used for zillions of years (yes zillions). And it matches up perfectly with letter grades.

1 star=wretched=F
2 stars=bad=D
3 stars=average=C
4 stars=good=B
5 stars=superb=A

1/2 stars add some coloring for those games that just don't quite fit... </QUOTE>

That's a simple system to grade games.  For all the time I've been aware of PC Gamer's percentage system, I haven't liked it for all the reasons stated above.  I figured that a percentage system doesn't help gamers decide on what's a good buy or not in the end, since there's only room for ratings of %70-100.

Then again, there's no fine-tuning the star system.  Say there's a game that's released and it's better than bad but not quite average.  It deserves higher than 2.5 but not above a 3.  Do you stick it with the 2.5 or the 3?

Am I making things up just to be complicated or sound sophistocated?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#121 by "Jeremy"
2000-05-30 06:54:59
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
<b>#113</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Sometimes the prevailing public (or editorial) opinion is different from your own... </QUOTE>
That really does sum it all up quite nicely.  It's hard to look at reviews and make a decision based on their opinions, when I know that as a whole they have differed greatly from mine in the past (re: Half-Life and Unreal, to name a couple).

Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#122 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 06:55:18
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>I think that in a system like this, disputes could break out over whose right, whose wrong, and who got most of the limelight.</quote>
Well yeah, that could be a problem, then there's the logistical problem of tripling your review load. And with reader voting, of "ballot stuffing" (even if you restrict it to one vote per IP address)...

No system is perfect. If readers REALLY want multiple opinions, they're best off with consulting multiple sources.
#123 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 06:59:53
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Am I making things up just to be complicated or sound sophistocated</quote>
I rarely get too worked up over a rating between like 2.5 and 3... in those cases, I usually go with the lower rating. Ultimately, both mean similar things, that this game is flawed but assuming you either are REALLY into that style of game or the flaws don't matter, go for it.

Because you have to remember the most important part of a rating. It's completely meaningless without the accompanying text, which supplies all of the "whys"...
#124 by "MoodyAllen"
2000-05-30 07:00:06
moodyallen@subdimension.com
<b>#118</b> "Gwog" wrote...
<QUOTE>I wrote this on a Planet Daikatana news update relating to the reviews starting to appear, and I thought it was somewhat relevant to this topic.


Readers interested in impartiality in their gaming reviews will find no better metric than what people write about Daikatana in the next few weeks. We'll call this game 'Spot The Bias' :)


Now, this is not referring to negative reviews, but rather biased reviews. IMO, the reviews of Daikatana will draw the line and show which sites do their job professionally, and which ones do not. </QUOTE>

People by nature are biased, and thus, reviews are going to be biased.  That's how stuff is liked and disliked.  Things about the game may appeal to one reviewer than another, or someone may pan the damn game 'cause of a few showstopping bugs (that are supposedly going to be fixed in an upcoming patch).  Others may not run into it.

With all these varying factors and tastes, how are reviews supposed to be non-biased?  And how are reviewers that clearly state their biases to their readers (say one reviewer is hard-assed about bugs and thinks they're inexcusable and another has a relaxed take on bugs that aren't show-stoppers) any less professional than the ones that stick to the facts?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#125 by "Russ"
2000-05-30 07:07:23
rthcowboy@mindspring.com
While the multiple reviewer concept isn't perfect, it can be refined over time. Example: You find that a certain reviewer always has a contrary opinion to your own on most games. Get rid of that reviewer and find another to add to your "pool" of favorite reviewers. This could take a while, depending upon how often you buy games.

Even playing demos isn't perfect since the demo will not show all aspects of the game. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#126 by "Gwog"
2000-05-30 07:13:02
gwog@stormtroopers.com http://www.planetdaikatana.com
MoodyAllen: when I use the word bias, I'm not talking about game-specific elements. An example of what I'm talking about would be someone who didn't like the "Make you my bitch" ad from FOUR YEARS AGO, and using that as their criteria to judge the game.
#127 by "Russ"
2000-05-30 07:15:40
rthcowboy@mindspring.com
<b>#124</b> "MoodyAllen" wrote...
<QUOTE>With all these varying factors and tastes, how are reviews supposed to be non-biased? </QUOTE>

They can't be. Whether it's emotional ranting and raving or methodical evaluation, some kind of bias is present. So, don't look for unbiased reviews. Look for reviews that reflect your own biases. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#128 by "MoodyAllen"
2000-05-30 07:20:20
moodyallen@subdimension.com
<b>#126</b> "Gwog" wrote...
<QUOTE>MoodyAllen: when I use the word bias, I'm not talking about game-specific elements. An example of what I'm talking about would be someone who didn't like the "Make you my bitch" ad from FOUR YEARS AGO, and using that as their criteria to judge the game. </QUOTE>

You mean someone taking into account that the game took 3-4 years of development and people chose to suffer through lame advertising schemes?

I see your point.  Instead of playing the game, some people may be out to prove that ION Storm didn't deliver on what they promised or what a 4-year-old game "should" look like.  I agree that such reviews are lame.  I'm interested in what the game is like, not some reviewer's take on the melodrama.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#129 by "Geoffrois"
2000-05-30 07:35:04
So, hmm, Scud, you decided to name yourself after the worst game you ever played? How sad is that? :)
#130 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-30 08:35:53
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
Hey all you reviewers out there I have a question. When I used to actually read reviews I tried to stay as far away from ones that just gave a single score ala ...

<QUOTE>1 star=wretched=F
2 stars=bad=D
3 stars=average=C
4 stars=good=B
5 stars=superb=A
</QUOTE>

I used always go via sites/magazines that had some sort of segmented rating system. ie you would get a rating on a game via a number of factors .. ie

* gameplay
* visuals
* audio
* story
* compatability
... etc ...

Then most of these sites would give a rundown on why they gave a particular score to category. (ie GameX rated lowly on visuals because in situation A there was a a slowdown, and there was artefacts in level1, 2 and 3 etc). I know in some cases not all these factors are relevant (ie Quake* would get a N/A for story :P).

I still see this occasionally except not with the explanation. Most of them say it got "way kewl" graphics and give it a 4/5 or whatever.

I can see some negatives of this system. Scores tend to be normalised so you get very few 90% games and very few 10% games and thus it may have less wow-factor but is there anything else that is wrong with this system. (ie Why don't I see it anymore ?:P)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#131 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 08:44:31
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>I used always go via sites/magazines that had some sort of segmented rating system. ie you would get a rating on a game via a number of factors ..</quote>
Ugh, as someone who actually spends time "writing" my reviews, I loathe this sort of formulaic approach. Not that I'm some brilliant writer, but I want the freedom to cover all of those elements in my own way, not in some "at a glance" formatted piece. They make writing the review incredibly boring.

And it's really a way for people to skip a lot of the text.

But more importantly, I don't like it because it basically says games can be chopped into little bits and evaluated that way. Sorry, but a game is more than the sum of its parts.
#132 by "Happy cow"
2000-05-30 08:45:43
happycow30@hotmail.com http://happycow.home.icq.com
Post #67 Apache wrote

<quote>Full-time Associate editors (at least here) start off in the low 35-40k a year range. </quote>

I'm sorry that is sick. Teachers don't make that much starting out, rookie cops don't make that much and they put their lives on the line everyday. The average burger flipper could write game reviews. They make about 11k a year. I really could go off in to full rant mode but I won't.

Happy Cow (more like disturbed cow, you guys got a sick little country here)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#133 by "keefer"
2000-05-30 08:47:47
keefer+crap@tzone.logicalalt.com
I'm with many other people that I've not bought a game baesd on a review.  Mostly I use reviews to see if something really sucks.  The theory is that if a LOT of people think a game or something about it is bad, then it's probably not worth my time.  That SW game, Force Commander?, comes to mind.

I still jump the gun before any reviews are coming out, and have wound up getting burned as a result (I really disliked Civ:CTP, e.g.).  So games that I see now that I consider questionable, I've been stopping by the Gold Guide on GoneGold.  It is an amazingly useful website for review consolidations, I've found.

<a href="http://www.gonegold.com/gguide/">http://www.gonegold.com/gguide/</a>

Probably most of you know about it already, but it's one of those gem sites you don't hear much about, and has recently gone onto my constant-read list.

keith
#134 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-30 09:00:35
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#131</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Ugh, as someone who actually spends time "writing" my reviews, I loathe this sort of formulaic approach. Not that I'm some brilliant writer, but I want the freedom to cover all of those elements in my own way, not in some "at a glance" formatted piece. They make writing the review incredibly boring. </QUOTE>

ahh so it's for the benefit of writers rather than the readers ... i c .. :P
Couldn't you tack on your "writing" part in an overview section ... the segemented bits aren't enough for reader to judge the game but they make it more likely that un-biased scores come through from writer. The overview part could be the "experiences and opinions" section where writers can shine. It is then possible that the reader can make up their own mind to a degree.

ie writer saids parts x, y and z are good but p, q and r suck and thus the writer dislikes game. However if reader doesn't care about p, q and r but they like x, y and z they know they will prolly like the game. While this is possible with current reviews I haven't seen many reviewers that can keep the objective parts away from subjective parts and thus very few readers are going to be able to distinguish between the two parts easily. (BTW this is not aimed at you cause I don't know your stuff :P)

<QUOTE>But more importantly, I don't like it because it basically says games can be chopped into little bits and evaluated that way. Sorry, but a game is more than the sum of its parts. </QUOTE>

Hence you have a overall score that rates it ... errr .. Overall :P

RahvinTaka (RT adopts Happy cows odd statements at end of name style)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#135 by "Apache"
2000-05-30 09:01:24
<quote>I'm sorry that is sick. Teachers don't make that much starting out, rookie cops don't make that much and they put their lives on the line everyday. The average burger flipper could write game reviews. They make about 11k a year. I really could go off in to full rant mode but I won't. </quote>

Not to belittle those fine folks, but they don't work on a site with a half-million unique readers per month. It's all about the benjamins, baby. Can anyone write a review? Sure. Can anyone write a 'good' review? No. You'd be surprised at the extreme lack of available talent in the gaming journalism industry. I can tell you first hand how hard good talent is to find today...
#136 by "anonymous"
2000-05-30 09:11:24
anonymous@anonymizer.net http://www.anonymizer.com
Full-time Associate editors (at least here) start off in the low 35-40k a year range.

Yikes, I should become an assistant editor. As a game designer working on two games (one as assistant, one as lead) to be published by EA, I'm getting paid $18,718.57 USD with current exchange rates, but same COL.

Looks like it's about time for me to job hunt ;p
#137 by "Jeremy"
2000-05-30 09:11:38
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
<b>#132</b> "Happy cow" wrote...
<QUOTE>I'm sorry that is sick. Teachers don't make that much starting out, rookie cops don't make that much and they put their lives on the line everyday.</QUOTE>
Ah, you've got to love capitalism.  Of course our teachers, officers, and other people who make our country run are vastly underpaid; especially relative to what people of equal or lesser talents are making in the private sector.

But I don't want to get started there, this is probably not the place :)

<QUOTE>The average burger flipper could write game reviews. </QUOTE>
The average burger flipper in my area can't even READ a review, much less write one... it does take some skill with the language to put forth something people will enjoy reading.

Maybe not $40k worth, but still...

Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#138 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 09:15:31
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>ahh so it's for the benefit of writers rather than the readers ... i c .. :P </quote>
Well... no. A review is also supposed to be entertaining to the reader. Are those types of reviews entertaining? In my experience, they might be informative, but rarely entertaining. I'd like to think I can do both better with a more free-form approach.

<quote>While this is possible with current reviews I haven't seen many reviewers that can keep the objective parts away from subjective parts and thus very few readers are going to be able to distinguish between the two parts easily. (BTW this is not aimed at you cause I don't know your stuff :P) </quote>
Well, since the majority of a review is pure opinion, I'm not sure why you'd need to separate it. If you want "just the facts" on a game, check out the company website. It'll tell you how many levels it has, what machine it needs, etc.

And if they can't figure out the review, it's either the failing of the writer or the reader. But since the majority of the review is subjective, I don't see the big deal.
#139 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-30 09:21:12
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Not to belittle those fine folks, but they don't work on a site with a half-million unique readers per month. </quote>
Or in our case 1.8 million/month (sorry, couldn't resist, heh heh, but I find our audit, which is done by some third-party, not by us, absurdly high... I think it's one guy logging in to his ISP like hundreds of times per day and generating zillions of unique IP address hits)

<quote>Can anyone write a review? Sure. Can anyone write a 'good' review? No. You'd be surprised at the extreme lack of available talent in the gaming journalism industry. I can tell you first hand how hard good talent is to find today</quote>
Oy, you ain't kidding... we turn down people ALL the time for freelance work. I'm always like, "Keep practicing..."
#140 by "Jeremy"
2000-05-30 09:29:40
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
<b>#138</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>If you want "just the facts" on a game, check out the company website. It'll tell you how many levels it has, what machine it needs, etc. </QUOTE>
It will also often lie to you and misrepresent the product.  I have VERY little faith in what companies tell me about their games.

Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#141 by "Apache"
2000-05-30 09:39:10
It's more than just writing ability, it's 'who you are'. Not unlike many mainstream media outlets, star-driven talent is what makes sites popular today. With a zillion gaming sites online today, only a handful really prosper. There's a reason for that. We may not have 'rock-star' followings, but in many cases, the people who report about games are even more popular than the people who make them.

btw - For those folks looking to start their career in gaming journalism, taking plenty of creative writing classes is an awesome way to start :)
#142 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-30 09:41:16
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#138</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Well... no. A review is also supposed to be entertaining to the reader. Are those types of reviews entertaining? In my experience, they might be informative, but rarely entertaining. I'd like to think I can do both better with a more free-form approach. </QUOTE>

I guess I am more into the information than the entertainment. If I want to know about a game I will read the review, if I want to be entertained I will prolly read editorials/columns/opion based pieces. Reviews can be entertaining but most importantly they should be informative (and trustworthy) ... unfortunately I haven't seen a lot of that.

<QUOTE>Well, since the majority of a review is pure opinion, I'm not sure why you'd need to separate it. If you want "just the facts" on a game, check out the company website. It'll tell you how many levels it has, what machine it needs, etc. </QUOTE>

maybe you can goto the company for "facts" but they rarely going to be the stuff you want and rarely going to be accurately portrayed. How many companies would proudly display on their website that their game has flaws on level X, Y and Z or that it lacks in gameplay once you get to section Y or whatever ... It could be argued that a review can state all these good and bad points objectively and then subjectively discuss how they affect the game.

<QUOTE>And if they can't figure out the review, it's either the failing of the writer or the reader. But since the majority of the review is subjective, I don't see the big deal. </QUOTE>

I guess because your opion becomes authoritative because of how it is delivered. Thus  highly subjective material should either be prefixed with a "In my opion ..." or whatever. This rarely happens (at least in my experience).
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#143 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-30 09:46:13
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#140</b> "Jeremy" wrote...
<QUOTE>It will also often lie to you and misrepresent the product. I have VERY little faith in what companies tell me about their games.
</QUOTE>

The same is true about reviews unfortunately. I remember going to websites who were owned/sponsored/payed by a company the were reviewing ... not surprisingly the product got high scores in everything. With paper/radio press (and TV ??? - not sure) they have to under law reveal their relationship to the products. Actually a fairly popular radio personality recently got sued heavily in my country for not doing it. However websites are under no such juristiction and can do whatever the hell they like. That is why I want a clear segregation of objective and subjective views .....

kinda why I like Blues news ... all the posts are relatively impartial.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#144 by "Jeremy"
2000-05-30 09:47:07
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
<b>#141</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>the people who report about games are even more popular than the people who make them. </QUOTE>
Oh, like I said before, reviewer fan-boys :)

Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#145 by "Apache"
2000-05-30 09:52:22
hehehe :)
#146 by "Happy cow"
2000-05-30 11:26:42
happycow30@hotmail.com http://happycow.home.icq.com
#141 Apache writes
<quote>It's more than just writing ability, it's 'who you are'. Not unlike many mainstream media outlets, star-driven talent is what makes sites popular today. </quote>
Doooooood (add a few O's as needed) how do you get in the door with a head that big? A new headline in tiger beat magazine "What  Apache had for breakfast" or "Win a dream date with Apache".
I have learned since I have been reading this that quite a few of you are writers or in the industry at some level. With the exception of Jeremy I have not seen anyone else point out that they are not writers or involved with the industry. For the Record, I am not involved.
BUT, it might shock you to know while I consider myself a gamer, I don't know who any of you guys are. Well, that is not true. I know who loonyboi is, but I think his site stinks. I see far more ego then talent from any of you. And of course, that is just my opinion. I was considering holding my tongue about this whole Review/Rock star topic. But I'm sure your collective egos can ignore what I have to say about it, so I see no reason not to add my 2 cents.
Simple fact #1
People like games. That is why the bother to pick up magazines and visit web pages. Since there is really only so much you can say about games, reviews happen. Their perceived influence is pretty negligible. I do read reviews, I do read commentary. I don't take any of if for gospel. I do this because somebody is talking about games and because I'm interested in them, I listen. Reviews are just talking about "one game" instead of the many. It does not provide me with anything more then a few moments of entertainment. When my friends get a new game I ask them about it. The give me their review. I listen to them and they are not even "Rock star" web jockeys. Go fig.
Simple fact #2
Don't forget where you come from. People do not go to a web site because you are such a cool guy. If they are at all like me (and they should be) they go because something there interest them. Most of this stuff is "TOP SECRET screen shots" or maybe even a new Mod, that while the author of the page had nothing to do with, still draws readers to their page. Most web news pages pretty much are just copy and paste affairs that I'm sure you could teach a chimp to do. If the said chimp had enough exclusive content he/she could be possibly a bigger star then Apache.
Simple fact #3
The biggest skill needed to succeed as a game news pundit, is that of kissing ass. Some where along the line you had to beg in plead to be included in the information loop. Now that is a dim memory as you now pass judgment on Mod authors you deem "not professional".
Simple fact #4
Well the Rock star web jockeys out there seem to look down their noses at the Humble burger flipper. Keep in mind. You guys love to bounce numbers around. When you can say your web page has "BILLIONS SERVED" then you can act like your more famous then the Big mac.
Happy Cow (sits down a takes a deep breath, I feel much better now)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#147 by "MCorleone"
2000-05-30 12:42:55
john_st123@hotmail.com
Warren:  Be careful when paraphrasing others:

(Quote of the nanosecond:
"Now we're making veiled death threats against John Romero?"
- Warren Marshall, in The stone that the builder refused... )

Heheh.
#148 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-05-30 13:08:48
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
Loonyboi trusts Avault?  Bwhahaha!!  Just kidding of course.. I don't visit that site.

The ONLY site I trust (and you should too) is OLD MAN MURRAY.  The definitive answer on why games rock solid, or suck ass.  

If you're looking for 300 word essays, visit Avault, if you just want to know if it's worth your money or not, then OMM is your dude.

Game reviewing is not rocket science, nor should it be, for gods sake, these are just games.

Apache, 40K in CA is like Welfare isn't it?  Do you get free cheese too?
#149 by "KungFu"
2000-05-30 13:44:17
kungfu@telefragged.com http://www.telefragged.com
I don't even believe in giving a game a score at all. People would tend to skip the whole review and go straight to the last page to see how many stars it had received and if it got the 'One Hot Mamma!' award, and that's not what reviewers want. When ever I review a game I tend to tell people about it, cover each area (sound, graphics, gameplay, etc) and talk about the good and bad points, and then give them my overall thoughts and let them decided whether they would want to play it or not. Plus review scores age badly, and most net tards don't understand that - 'well according to siteX, Quake2 is better than Half-Life!'
#150 by "flamethrower"
2000-05-30 15:12:48
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
Way back way back when in [77] Steve Bauman wrote:

That's mighty patronizing of you.

My nick was not chosen by accident.


Hmm, we'll find out tomorrow (maybe... I haven't actually started writing the beast) when I hand in my review that trashes JOHN ROMERO'S DAIKATANA. I'll give everyone a preview: 1 1/2 out of 5 stars. I can't even finish the fucking thing because I ran into multiple "can't finish the game" bugs involving those dumb-ass sidekicks, and I'm on the next-to-last level.

*chortle*  ;)

But should anyone try to pressure me (and this has happened in the past, though never with Eidos), I have a pat answer: "Can I quote you on that?" That shuts people up REAL fast.

Oooh, examples! Examples!

but they'll still send it to me because they know it's a good game, and they also know I have a lot of readers.

Point taken.

The implication, of course, being I'm in their pocket... um, right. OK.

Don't take it personally dude, I didn't say you were in their pocket, your drawn implication is wrong. If I go down the implications route I don't tend to leave grey areas - you know when you're being implied about. Look at the Internet reviewers as a whole, throughout the net, it's an ugly, ugly sight. No specifics aimed at you.

You're my hero.

You're not the first.

And who exactly do you work for? Your articles appear where?

I ran a webpage that I have basically given up. I beat the Dallas Observer by a week in the big break of ION Storm, I published lots of emails from ION developers mainly going on about Porter & O'Flaherty, I got Todd's lawyers on my case. I did one review, it's by no means brilliant, but it's not bad for a first attempt. (Evil Avatar, Descent 3).

The last time I checked my integrity and credibility meter, I could say the same thing, but I generally don't feel the need to engage in that sort of self-promotional masturbation in public.

In these days of the Internet, gamers in pockets and front sites by publishers, you'd be better off doing so. Look at the reviewes linked by PlanetDaikatana... licky sucky meaningless rubbish.

Do you know why? I've been writing about games for over 10 years now, and those articles say everything that needs to be said. I've written hundreds of reviews that have been read by millions of people, and I've edited thousands of articles for multiple publications. I can say whatever I want about how good or credible I am, but the proof is in my published works.

"I generally don't feel the need to engage in that sort of self-promotional masturbation in public." ;-D

But don't worry, game PR fluffers (a.k.a reviwers or *chortle* journalists), do not need those qualities.
Neither do *chortle* anonymous Internet "columnists."

Again, not that this was necessarily directed at YOU. I used your idea and thread to put forward a further point of view... if I meant you I'd refer to you directly. Look around the web, you know I'm right.

All you need is a pre-live disk (and no mention of that in the review), screenshots, and the entertainment skills of a 14 year old masturbation machine who has never seen sunlight.
You know your target audience so well. It's as if... you're describing yourself.
 
I really, truly, wish this stoned, hateful, illiterate Flamethower character of mine WAS the  lowest of the low in the gaming scene. At least they'd be some kind of bottom line. But NO... the morons really do sink beneath me. That's such a shame.


(For the record, I wasn't smacking out at Looni either, just obvious publisher & sometimes developer habit of treats and punishments. The standards you set yourself are not met by far, far too many of your 'cometemparies'/'rivals').



My star rating system that I use:

* - a game so bad it didn't deserve the 'joke' of "minus *"
** - a poor game with limited redeeming features
*** - and entirely average experience, or, peaks and troughs - a flawed, potential great.
**** - a great game and you should buy (IMHO)
***** - a great game that you should buy PLUS exceptional and outstanding qualities

I'm not afraid of the top rating. You can't use 100%, so what's the limit? Didn't some rag give Quake 2 97% for chrissakes (Hello?! It's good but not THAT good!). Zzap64! got a right slagging for giving Paradroid 100% for the "Presentation" catgory (hey, Steve, if I read & remember that I figure I'm probably not 14 years old!).

You have to review in context of what has gone before. I know one print rag (PC Zone I recall but I could be wrong) said in their review they were downgrading Anno 1602 (or so)'s score because they'd had a sneek peek of Settlers III and it was to be reviewed the following issue. They still gave a strong review, and a good score, but gave ONE of four columns on the page and a 1 inch square screenshot. How much would it suck to have developed that gave over the past year/two/howevermany for a review of a hundred words that said will be beaten one day so down with the score. Reviewers too cynical to write reviews? I think the truth is readers are increasingly cynical about game reviews.




#118 "Gwog" wrote...

"I wrote this on a Planet Daikatana news update relating to the reviews starting to appear, and I thought it was somewhat relevant to this topic. Readers interested in impartiality in their gaming reviews will find no better metric than what people write about Daikatana in the next few weeks. We'll call this game 'Spot The Bias' :)   Now, this is not referring to negative reviews, but rather biased reviews. IMO, the reviews of Daikatana will draw the line and show which sites do their job professionally, and which ones do not. "

Oh purhLEAZE! Since when in the hell is GWOG qualified to determine bias about Daikatana? It's like asking a tired, lonely old whore to determine which couples are in love and which ones aren't.



Sarge Hulka in room #148 - WORD! Surely you speak the truth!
#151 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-30 15:55:04
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#97</b> "Pete Closs" wrote...
<QUOTE> This is true. I think CliffyB mentioned regretting not including more of that throughout the game a while back.</QUOTE>

Yeah, well, they had to simplify the game big time in order to get released that year. Unreal is proof that an internet development system simply doesn't work.

On the other hand, Cliffy's level where the lights go out and you first get attacked by a Skaarj? Amazing.

Unfortunately, that's like the second level in the game. :)

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#152 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-30 15:57:14
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#105</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>Steve: I have to agree on the 1-100 grading system, we've been debating for a couple months to move to a letter grade scale. (With +/-)

(for example)

A- Must buy, no matter what.
B- Quality game
C- Average, if you're a fan of the genre pick it up.
D- Below Average.
F- Utter crap. </QUOTE>

Hey, listen people: <i>grading systems are inane</i>. Je<i>sus</i>.

Grading systems exist because people can't be bothered to read the actual reviews. I hate them to no end.

A review should be able to point out what's good and bad about the game without resorting to a numerical (or alphanumerical) system.

Besides, then you get into the problem of having to give a game a particular rating based on how it compares to other games. And how the heck does one determine if a game is deserving of a 93 instead of a 92 or 94?

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#153 by "Billy Saw Hurock"
2000-05-30 16:10:20
billysawhurock@hotmail.com http://www.bloweduprealgood.com
I give Loonyboi's assessment of game ratings in the previous post a 93%
#154 by "Gwog"
2000-05-30 16:32:26
gwog@stormtroopers.com http://www.stormtroopers.com
wtf are you talking about, flamethrower?
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