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Games are not a protected form of free speech.
May 1st 2002, 13:53 CEST by Nova Z Or at least, that's what the Chief Justice of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri has ruled. I don't need to say anything on this, you can read about it here. |
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Topic: Games are not a protected form of free speech.
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By the way, is 40 posts a record for "quickest thread hijacking with no chance of return"? |
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If games show "no conveyance of ideas, expression or anything else that could possibly amount to free speech", how could they, then, influence kids into murderous behaviour? It seems that judge is doing a disservice to argument he is trying to promote. |
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chiro: It doesn't take free though to convince people to murder, usually takes just opposite... He said the things expressed in the game don't count as saying something, but more as a trainer... while I don't agree and I think he's a large goat lover, I think it's a hard case to prove. I did once; I might do it again if jafd says it's all right.
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1) All the links I've seen mischaracterize this ruling. 2) This wasn't a ruling on the merits of the case. 3) This was summary judgment *against* the plaintiff. In essence, the plaintiff didn't produce enough evidence to even get to trial. They couldn't be bothered to even produce an expert witness to refute the other side. Sheesh. 4) Given the paltry amount of evidence produced by the plaintiffs, the judge was given no choice. 5) The ordinance that was the subject of the suit affected minors. Not adults. That makes a huge difference. 6) There's not a chance in the hell that the same statute written for adults would pass constitutional scrutiny. Here's the full opinion: link |
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HG: this is all true, and if the judgement had been made about what was presented, I don;t think there'd be any problem with it, beyond the general bitching. However, the judge went beyond wha the case was about (minors viewing/playing mature materials) and decided that the gamesare unprotected under the first amendment. It makes a very large difference and a potentially huge problem well beyond the scope of the legislation in questions, and even bbeyond the scope of just games. That's where the problem lay. 6) There's not a chance in the hell that the same statute written for adults would pass constitutional scrutiny. Neither will this one. But the fact that he said that games are not constitutionally protected under the first amendment means that, if uncontested or overruled by a higher court, games and game-related industry wouldn't have the luxury of constitutional scrutiny. (And in all honesty, I don't see how this will ever not be overruled, but the way it was worded and the decision brought about is more the problem.) Oh and I agree that he had no choice because of the ISDAs poor litigation, FWIW. |
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car makers have to significantly modify their vehicles to sell 'em in california (most stringent emission laws in the nation), but they do. porsches, bmws, lamborghini, ferrari, kia, mazda, toyota, lexus... i haven't seen a single auto manufacturer from anywhere in the world that doesn't sell cars in california. yet they all have to manufacture cars especially for california's wacky requirements. Most cars sold in the US use "California emissions" nowadays, I believe. Last I'd heard, California alone is the third largest car market in the world, behind the United States and Europe. My current new car has the same emissions as California. My life is a patio of fun.
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From what I can tell, this judge would rather that children go outside, and play with the aligators that we all know are to be found basically anywhere, and everywhere. Personally, I've been playing with bingo simulators for over twenty five years, and have not participated in violence since my first year in highschool which was long ago enough that it's almost depressing. © 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
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HW: good with teh funny alligators... "Oh shit! Alligator on my leg!!!" I did once; I might do it again if jafd says it's all right.
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My level of utter suck in SoF2 is definitely going down. One day, perhaps I can aspire to mediocre! Seriously though, disciplining myself to aim a little higher than I instinctively want to is working wonders. |
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Chris Johnson this is all true, and if the judgement had been made about what was presented, I don;t think there'd be any problem with it, beyond the general bitching. Agreed. A federal judge of a district court construing a state statute, it has very little precedential value. Missouri state courts aren't bound by this decision. They may feel persuaded by it, but stare decisis does not bind them on this issue. The plaintiffs have the burden of proof, and they barely picked it up in this case, that's what really irriates me the most. Not what the judge did. |
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but stare decisis does not bind them on this issue{/quote] Maybe so, but all I know is that stare decisis makes a damn find spackle. I believe I can fly......urk.
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I suck. I believe I can fly......urk.
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LPMiller Posting here, when you could be playing Camper of Fortune? |
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Everyone's getting better. m0nty's becoming a serious danger with that friggin GL =) Oh, and Leslie... if we keep meeting in the office like that, people are going to talk... -chris |
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chris Yah, I've got like an almost half-second edge over monty in ping, and he's at least four times better than I am. What's up with that? Of course, if you have a quick connect -- you can die, reconnect and be back alive in the same game again. That's probably a bug, I'm not saying I'd *abuse* it if I was losing, I'm just saying it is there. |
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I have to say I find sniping far too compelling. But I know it pisses people off. I did manage to kill someone with the thing firing from the hip, but I died too. |
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it's a definite bug, and I shudder to think of its abuse on public servers. SOF2 isn't enough to make me fully repent my dislike of tactical, wait-after-death, realistic-weapons games (I can think of about 100 ways it could be better... for me anyway), but I will admit to having a lot of fun on butter. It's not quite as organized as my clan days, but it's light years ahead of playing on a public server. -chris |
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Sniping is fun, but that whole zero peripheral vision thing makes me more paranoid than usual. |
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I'm torn about whether you should be allowed to do any more than pivot or lean while in the sniper sight. I think being able to actually move may be a little too much. |
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Hijaack, ninja-style; has anyone dealt with Verio as a colocation host? I use them for webhosting and they've done that pretty well. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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[g]chris Agreed. The whole "0wnag3!" stuff I can do with out. Although actually I wouldn't mind so much here if a PC'er did it. And I pretty much did get my head handed to me. Literally. And all of my teammates were very thoughtful tonight. None of them took me to task when my M60 auto-discharged repeatedly while their backs were turned. |
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I blasted the crap out of some poor bastard on my team with my shotgun. He was in an elevator shaft, and I couldn't see the friendly icon..but you know, you apologize and everyone's cool. |
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Leslie - GameSpy just moved all of its servers from Verio to Intelenet. I'm not 100% sure that there was anything wrong with Verio, though... I think they may just have shut down the Irvine office. From what I understand from other, non-GameSpy people who are familiar with them, Verio is a pretty solid colocation host. -chris |
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Hugin I can see what you're saying. I didn't know that people actually did move while looking through the sniper sight. Isn't that a little like driving while using binoculars? If they're moving while looking through the sight -- yeah that's a little unrealistic, but they are sacrifcing quite a bit on the peripheral vision side of things, and since they're moving they'r exposing themselves to fields of fire that they'll be totally unaware of. I dunno. I'd like to have some kind of "Spidey-Sense" that would go off and tell me when I'm in the cross-hairs though. Give me a chance to make a dive John Woo style, right as the bullet passes through the airspace I just vacated. Killing me is apparently easier than rolliing out of bed, judging by tonight's game. |
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"In war, there is no spidey-sense." I think Hemingway said that. -chris |
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Thanks chris, I'm looking at setting up a permanent Butter server. For $395 a month I get a P3 1.3 w/ 128mb, 18gb SCSI, and 50gb of transfer. What it's really going to come down to I think is what their QoS is like. No point running a colocated game server if the network is flakey. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Chris Yeah -- you should talk.. You were firing into the air with a six-shooter from the damn helicopter and then half-way across the map, I drop dead at Post-It's feet....grrr. |
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I must say that I redeemed myself just a tiny bit earlier tonight and actually scored reasonably well, compared to my drunken monkey style of play that's otherwise so prevalent. You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.
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I don't recall having any major (or really even many minor) instances of downtime, and we hosted with them for at least a good two years. Worth checking out, but also definitely worth talking to some other people with more direct experience than I had. =) If you want, I could ask my admins what they thought of Verio's service. -chris |
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Thanks chris, I'd appreciate that. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Hiredgoons - It was the AK, and that was totally a lucky shot on my part. Couldn't believe that I hit you. I saw a single pink pixel and just opened up in the general direction. Probably sounded like a six shooter because I was tapping the mouse button as opposed to just laying on the fire. :P -chris |
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Chris It was the AK, and that was totally a lucky shot on my part. Couldn't believe that I hit you. I saw a single pink pixel and just opened up in the general direction. Probably sounded like a six shooter because I was tapping the mouse button as opposed to just laying on the fire. :P Strangely, that doesn't make me feel much better. Don't worry though, it's just yet another grievance ritualistically recorded in my personal Book of Wrongs that I read nightly before I sleep and fade off into dreams of glorious vengeance. Oh yea, verily... |
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I just can't seem to get into SoF2 like I can Jedi Knight CTF or dueling.. SoF just feels so.. impersonal.. I like to get right up in the guys face and smack him across the room... --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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Sniping is fun, but that whole zero peripheral vision thing makes me more paranoid than usual. There is another way to snip. Switch the ak or m4 to single shot (defaults to "\"). It's not an intakill (unless you get lucky and snag a head shot), and doesn't seam to be as accurate as the sniper rifle with the scope*, but you can use thermels with it. *It may acctauly be as a accurate and it's just my shit aim making it seam worse. |
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Leslie, you may want to consider HomeLAN, I haven't looked at the details of their hosting, but they specialize in game servers, and a quick perusal of their price schedule says that you could save some money. http://www.homelanxtreme.com Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Hang on, hang on....I can't take a TVR into the US? Fuck that, I'm staying in the UK then! Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
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#34 by Chris Johnson Except for other governemnts saying "shit, we have a country that trumpets freedom of speech at every turn allowing this sort of censorship to happen.... I KNOW we can do it now". Not gonna happen. You know why? Cause there isn't a government that actually heard this news. Do you think it was on the news here in Europe??? Or on any (non gamerelated) european newssite??? No. Why should they? US Judges have all kinds of rulings all the time, why should that be important to anyone outside the US? Or even outside the specific state? To US gamers it's of some importance. But the rest of the general populace in the world didn't hear and care about it. You have to know about something before you can act on it or make it an example. And nobody except us gamers knows. With a smile on the lips and a hole in the head.
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Vauxhall and Opel are not just two brands of GM, but their cars are actually identical: in the Rep. of Ireland you buy an Opel Astra. Drive across the border into Northern Ireland and you buy a Vauxhall Astra. Identical cars in every way, only the marque is different. AFAIK Vauxhall were an English motor company and where taken over by GM. Instead of renaming them, GM rebranded Opel cars for British consumption. Could be wrong, but that's the sketchy history as I understand it. What this means in a broader sense, I don't know. Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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deadlock: The same car is sold here in Australia as the Holden Astra. Again, the only difference appears to be the badge. There could be mechanical differences, but I haven't looked into that area. |
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Ashiran: There's also an uspoken assumption that every country in the World (or Europe at least) follows America's lead on absolutely everything, which is patently untrue, particularly when it comes to the subject of personal liberty. Some European states are more constrictive, others are more lenient. Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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There's also an uspoken assumption that every country in the World (or Europe at least) follows America's lead on absolutely everything, which is patently untrue, I know. I just find it annoying when people accept it as truth. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil." Psalm 23
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Certainly the vast majority of those who hold judgeships aren't about to bend the law to fit their own personal beliefs, but it shouldn't be much of a surprise to find that some do, if they're somehow allowed to get away with it.[/quite] Yeah. Right. They're humans. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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And I'm a shitty quotetagger. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Oh and I agree that he had no choice because of the ISDAs poor litigation, FWIW. As do I, to some degree. I'm not a lawyer, so I am not certain at all - couldn't he have mentioned out loud that he had these four games, and wondered where the other four games were? Setting that aside, it still seems odd to me that they'll ship free games to barlely literate morons running a "journalistic" web site, but not to the judge in this case. Yeah. Right. They're humans. Well, he's a Limbaugh Human. ph34r. Such thirst doesn't always permit for tact.
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must .. get .. in ... on ... butter ..... sof .... must ..... unleash ..... fist. .. of ... death Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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I wish all these "people" would stop trying to link every violent thing to violent video games. I was watching TV one time, after the Columbine incident, and they "somehow" linked the game Doom to the shooting. I mean, that's total crap. |
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That's very insightful, Mr. Squid09. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Thanks for the HomeLan linkage, MattG. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Ashrain: Not gonna happen. You know why? Cause there isn't a government that actually heard this news. Do you think it was on the news here in Europe??? Or on any (non gamerelated) european newssite??? No. Why should they? US Judges have all kinds of rulings all the time, why should that be important to anyone outside the US? Or even outside the specific state? To US gamers it's of some importance. But the rest of the general populace in the world didn't hear and care about it. You have to know about something before you can act on it or make it an example. And nobody except us gamers knows. So you think that other governments don't monitor what happens legislatively in other countries, regardless of whether the general public sees it on the news or not? Trust me, they do. I would almost guarantee it in writing that they do. Deadlock: Vauxhall and Opel are not just two brands of GM, but their cars are actually identical: in the Rep. of Ireland you buy an Opel Astra. Drive across the border into Northern Ireland and you buy a Vauxhall Astra. Identical cars in every way, only the marque is different. AFAIK Vauxhall were an English motor company and where taken over by GM. Instead of renaming them, GM rebranded Opel cars for British consumption. Could be wrong, but that's the sketchy history as I understand it. What this means in a broader sense, I don't know. Ah I didn't know they shared the same vehicles across the board. I knew they had some sister vehicles (lie the Vauxhall VX220/Opel Speedster), but I didn't realize they shared the same line. They truly ARE GM brands then. *sigh* There's also an uspoken assumption that every country in the World (or Europe at least) follows America's lead on absolutely everything, which is patently untrue, particularly when it comes to the subject of personal liberty. Some European states are more constrictive, others are more lenient. I don't think that I ever said or implied that everyone followed the U.S. lead on everything, and in fact I REALLY hope they don't.... I can;t imagine what it would be like for every nation to be lead by some complete dolt who rode daddy's coattails in order to run the country. ;) But the fact is that a huge amount of people tend to look at exaples set forth by other people (trust me, there's some U.S. legislation at state and federal levels that either resemble or outright plagiarize other countries' legislaion), whether it's personal or governmental in nature. jafd: Setting that aside, it still seems odd to me that they'll ship free games to barlely literate morons running a "journalistic" web site, but not to the judge in this case. It's all about priorities. Well that and the ISDA is one of the more fucked up/incompetent special interest groups on the planet. Well, he's a Limbaugh Human. ph34r. Are you sure you can use Limbaugh and Human to describe the same individual and have it not be an oxymoron? |
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should race-hated be protected under freedom of speech? anti-gay discrimination? anti-religion discrimination? anti-paedophile discrimination? yes. iamelectro
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