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Games are not a protected form of free speech.
May 1st 2002, 13:53 CEST by Nova Z Or at least, that's what the Chief Justice of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri has ruled. I don't need to say anything on this, you can read about it here. |
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Topic: Games are not a protected form of free speech.
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#17 Asshole!!!! =) "I want you to remember me just as I am...filled with murderous rage!" --Homer Simpson
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Ok, I confess ... I found the installer shot on the net =) Let me pretend though ... I'm going to my 'happy place' now.. Witty Quote
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#22 Again, asshole!!! =) "I want you to remember me just as I am...filled with murderous rage!" --Homer Simpson
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Heh, that was mean Mr Fury :) I went to EB today, but the chick couldn't figure out when it was coming in. They told me on Sunday, it would be out Monday, Monday evening, it would be out Tuesday, Tuesday mid-day, preorders would be available this morning between 10:-12:30PM. Bullpucky, no copies of Morrowind in store. I wish these people could remain solid on when the game was coming in. I bought two copies in store at EB of the collectors edition last Friday, and now I'm wishing I hadn't. What jerks. "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
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i never got this - all media content should be available for sale under freedom of speech? should race-hated be protected under freedom of speech? anti-gay discrimination? anti-religion discrimination? anti-paedophile discrimination? flamethrower has a point i don't get this point either could some intelligent american come up with a decent argument to justify this? given that, i still believe that games should be protected under free speech. the newer games are are basically interactive movies. one may question the existance of a story line in many games but a modern action movie also begs that same question. hopefully this case doesn't set a precedence. it would be just perfect if some uninformed Missourian judge ruins the whole industry. |
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Black & White, Planescape: Torment, Ultima 7, & A Mind Forever Voyaging. What's the judge's address? I can handle the S&H on the last one. ;) Who makes up the membership of this Interactive Digital Software Association? A bunch of publishers? Friggin' monkeys. It's almost as though they don't care about the nature or nuture of the industry. Such thirst doesn't always permit for tact.
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I think it's the interactivity that worries most people; the fact that in Metal Gear Solid, it's 'you' that is choking guards from behind etc., that level of participation that you don't get in movies, which are more voyeuristic. Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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i never got this - all media content should be available for sale under freedom of speech? should race-hated be protected under freedom of speech? anti-gay discrimination? anti-religion discrimination? anti-paedophile discrimination? The solution to bad speech is more speech, not less. You won't change a racist's mind by putting tape over his mouth, and you might not even change it by debating the foundation of his beliefs with him, but you can influence others and hopefully start them thinking. As long as you aren't actively harming others you should be allowed to say anything you feel. This judge is a reactionary moron, and the IDSA completely dropped the ball on this case. It'll be overturned and hopefully next time they'll learn to send games with content instead of just saying they exist. They're cute, they're cuddly and jam shoots out their heads. I want 'em all!
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This won't hold water with a higher court. I'd be willing to bet that this judge has probably never touched a computer. "I want you to remember me just as I am...filled with murderous rage!" --Homer Simpson
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Bet all you want mister - anything is possible in the wonderful world of US courts. professional philosophical level design monkey.
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26: Jafd - What? Nature or Neuter? Build a man a fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of the night. Light a man on fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.
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flamethrower has a point i don't get this point either could some intelligent american come up with a decent argument to justify this? Quite frankly they should all be protected, as long as it's just speech. As soon as it directly harms others it's crossed the line. |
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it'll be overturned on appeal. just... weary.
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Flamey: i never got this - all media content should be available for sale under freedom of speech? should race-hated be protected under freedom of speech? anti-gay discrimination? anti-religion discrimination? anti-paedophile discrimination? In a word: yes. Why? Because while people should (and do) have the freedom to present any thought or speech (not necessarily action) that they wholeheartedly believe or use for parody, people also have the right to ignore them completely. And when these people express their close-minded idiocy, it begins a dialogue by those with cooler heads and greater numbers to work on diminishing the numbers of the Dumb even more. Hopefully. Plus I'd rather have these types screaming to the hills and valleys their idiot points of view. Makes it easier to keep tabs on them. Ashiran: I don't care about how many US judges decide stuff like that. Even with the fact that USA based game companies might suffer from this, for anyone who lives outside of the US this ruling is completly irrelevant. Except for other governemnts saying "shit, we have a country that trumpets freedom of speech at every turn allowing this sort of censorship to happen.... I KNOW we can do it now". Plus, it affects the market. I mean if the US developers look around and see their content and product are getting censored hand-over-fist do you really think they're going to care to keep making them? Spending years in development to have everything need to be altered upon release to sell to the "home crowd" if not banned completely? MCorleone: Doesn't the whole German incident count in favour of video games? I thought violent video games were banned in Germany? Don't you have to replace humans as robots and have green or non-red blood? If they've already taken those precautions there and they still had a nut-job play Terminator then it seems to me that they can mark that precaution off as a failure. The news articles out of Germany made sure to point out that the kid was part of a CounterStrike clan and played fairly often. In fact they spent more print on that and his "violent comic book collection" than on his veiled threats teachers and his tumultuous relaltionship with his own parents (which were both reported, but almost as afterthoughts, at least in reports I've seen). This judge is a reactionary moron, and the IDSA completely dropped the ball on this case. It'll be overturned and hopefully next time they'll learn to send games with content instead of just saying they exist. The judge is a rightwing moron who is more interested in politciking than he is in doing his job. The case was not about whether or not games were an expression of ideas or not. It was about restricting audience to more mature themed games, such as the MPAA ratings restrict movies from their respective audiences based on who is presumably old enough to be able to handle the material presented. The judge overstepped his bounds by presenting a ruling unrelated to the case, and by stcking his own bias onto the ruling, started a really bad precedent. It shouldn't stand up in court (an almost identical bit of legislation from Indianapolis(?) was struck down prior to this one being written up, I believe), but the fact that the judge made his ruling based on personal bias and political reasons rather than the merits (and actual subject) of the case is reprehensible. Of course, when you're related to Rush Limbaugh, I guess that's par for the course really. |
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<sarcasm>Wait a second... like a judge wouldn't actually just uphold the law, but instead use it further his own carear and political agenda... I don't believe it.</sarcasm> I did once; I might do it again if jafd says it's all right.
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I'm having a hard time believing that the judge was given four games, selected by one clearly biased party, and actually thought that he was doing anything but using his position of power to promote his own point of view. Certainly the vast majority of those who hold judgeships aren't about to bend the law to fit their own personal beliefs, but it shouldn't be much of a surprise to find that some do, if they're somehow allowed to get away with it. I would like to know more about this case. It smells. Such thirst doesn't always permit for tact.
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It's naive to think that no-one outside of the US can produce games :P It's naive to think people outside of the US would produce games they can't sell within the United States and Germany without significant modifications. It's equally naive to think Europe wouldn't adopt similar measures to whatever the US and/or Germany decide. And without a market to sell your games, they won't get produced. My life is a patio of fun.
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Its naive to think that you can keep beginning a statement with the phrase 'its naive to think...' lpm is the new pet rocks.
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It's naiive to think Crappers can't/won't run a riff into into the ground if given half a chance. :p |
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steve: It's naive to think people outside of the US would produce games they can't sell within the United States and Germany without significant modifications. if the market's big enough, they'll do it. car makers have to significantly modify their vehicles to sell 'em in california (most stringent emission laws in the nation), but they do. porsches, bmws, lamborghini, ferrari, kia, mazda, toyota, lexus... i haven't seen a single auto manufacturer from anywhere in the world that doesn't sell cars in california. yet they all have to manufacture cars especially for california's wacky requirements. just... weary.
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i haven't seen a single auto manufacturer from anywhere in the world that doesn't sell cars in california. Except for Opel, Lotus (well, the Elise and Exige anyways), TVR, Vauxhall, Caterham, the new MGs, and a list that goes on and on, which don't sell their cars in the U.S. at all, because they won't adjust their vehicles to match U.S. collision laws and such, which would seriously downgrade their performance. There are quite a few models who avoid the U.S. altogether because they choose not to modify their product to fit regulations. Are they shooting themselves in the foot? Hard to say, but they're certainly avoiding the market (and lessening their prospective customer-base) because of what could very well be some over-the-top regulation. I can see software companies (or their publishers, more accurately) doing the same. |
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In fact, the availability of specialty automobiles is higher in CA than anywhere else in the country that I'm aware of. There are *assloads* of exotic cars out here. -chris |
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Emission laws in Oregon are pretty strict as well, though only in the Willamette valley (where most of the population resides). "I want you to remember me just as I am...filled with murderous rage!" --Homer Simpson
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Chris: yeah.. that is the ONLY place I've seen a Qvale Mangusta outside of a magazine. Goddamned rich-ass bastards in L.A. |
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In fact, the availability of specialty automobiles is higher in CA than anywhere else in the country that I'm aware of. There are *assloads* of exotic cars out here. But is it higher then 4500 sold in year? Low volume manufacuers have a seperate set of requirements that match are closer to the federal requirements (making it easyer to just build all US cars to the CA requirements, with out effecting why people would buy an exotic anyway). |
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Except for Opel, Lotus (well, the Elise and Exige anyways), TVR, Vauxhall, Caterham, the new MGs, and a list that goes on and on, which don't sell their cars in the U.S. at all, because they won't adjust their vehicles to match U.S. collision laws and such, which would seriously downgrade their performance. Opel used to. Lotus does. dunno about TVR, Vauxhall, Caterham; never heard of those. MG used to. didn't MG get purchased by someone, though? in any case, compare/contrast size of total market vs. the manufacturers that don't sell in the US, and i'm fairly certain it'd fit comfortably in "margin of error" territory. just... weary.
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I like to play games on my computer. - Fallon |
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wonder if they'll get the new Yugo though. I wouldn't call Californa laws wacky, though sometimes they put the cart before the horse. I believe I can fly......urk.
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Opel used to. Lotus does. dunno about TVR, Vauxhall, Caterham; never heard of those. MG used to. didn't MG get purchased by someone, though? in any case, compare/contrast size of total market vs. the manufacturers that don't sell in the US, and i'm fairly certain it'd fit comfortably in "margin of error" territory. Opel used to. Lotus can only import the Esprit (which is why I specifically mentioned other car models... add the 340R to that list too). MG used to. Until regs changed and went beyond what those companies were willing to do to export their vehicles (yes there are other factors involved, but I know that regs, especially our crash regs, are one of the main sticking points). MG is now a Rover/BMW brand I believe. They still have their own MG nameplates tho. Opel and Vauxhall are both GM nameplates. TVR's an old school performance nameplate (I think they used to be available here as well). There are other brands that I didn't mention. Offhand, I can think of Ariel, Citroen (I don't believe they import here anymore), Daihatsu (except I think they just lost out in the marketplace, admittedly), Morgan, Holden, Noble, Proton, Skoda, and Westfield, offhand. A few are sepcialized brands. Others, like Skoda, Citroen, Daihatsu TVR, Vaufhall, and Opel (again offhand) are fairly well known and quite respectable brands in terms of sales, and have quite a bit of interest from people in the States, especially the more brazen performance brands (Cerain Opels and Vauxhalls, Citroens, TVRs, etc.) I know specifically that TVRs aren't imported due to regulations (which was the word direct form their offices when I expressed interest in the Tuscan a while back. Same news for the Opel and Vauxhall models I expressed interest in). (Any of the vehicles CAN be imported through a broker, natch, but are illegal to drive on the street, which is what I'm getting at. Those who import them usually do as collectors or for racing purposes only. They can;t be licensed for general driving tho) |
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By the way, is 40 posts a record for "quickest thread hijacking with no chance of return"? |
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If games show "no conveyance of ideas, expression or anything else that could possibly amount to free speech", how could they, then, influence kids into murderous behaviour? It seems that judge is doing a disservice to argument he is trying to promote. |
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chiro: It doesn't take free though to convince people to murder, usually takes just opposite... He said the things expressed in the game don't count as saying something, but more as a trainer... while I don't agree and I think he's a large goat lover, I think it's a hard case to prove. I did once; I might do it again if jafd says it's all right.
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1) All the links I've seen mischaracterize this ruling. 2) This wasn't a ruling on the merits of the case. 3) This was summary judgment *against* the plaintiff. In essence, the plaintiff didn't produce enough evidence to even get to trial. They couldn't be bothered to even produce an expert witness to refute the other side. Sheesh. 4) Given the paltry amount of evidence produced by the plaintiffs, the judge was given no choice. 5) The ordinance that was the subject of the suit affected minors. Not adults. That makes a huge difference. 6) There's not a chance in the hell that the same statute written for adults would pass constitutional scrutiny. Here's the full opinion: link |
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HG: this is all true, and if the judgement had been made about what was presented, I don;t think there'd be any problem with it, beyond the general bitching. However, the judge went beyond wha the case was about (minors viewing/playing mature materials) and decided that the gamesare unprotected under the first amendment. It makes a very large difference and a potentially huge problem well beyond the scope of the legislation in questions, and even bbeyond the scope of just games. That's where the problem lay. 6) There's not a chance in the hell that the same statute written for adults would pass constitutional scrutiny. Neither will this one. But the fact that he said that games are not constitutionally protected under the first amendment means that, if uncontested or overruled by a higher court, games and game-related industry wouldn't have the luxury of constitutional scrutiny. (And in all honesty, I don't see how this will ever not be overruled, but the way it was worded and the decision brought about is more the problem.) Oh and I agree that he had no choice because of the ISDAs poor litigation, FWIW. |
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car makers have to significantly modify their vehicles to sell 'em in california (most stringent emission laws in the nation), but they do. porsches, bmws, lamborghini, ferrari, kia, mazda, toyota, lexus... i haven't seen a single auto manufacturer from anywhere in the world that doesn't sell cars in california. yet they all have to manufacture cars especially for california's wacky requirements. Most cars sold in the US use "California emissions" nowadays, I believe. Last I'd heard, California alone is the third largest car market in the world, behind the United States and Europe. My current new car has the same emissions as California. My life is a patio of fun.
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From what I can tell, this judge would rather that children go outside, and play with the aligators that we all know are to be found basically anywhere, and everywhere. Personally, I've been playing with bingo simulators for over twenty five years, and have not participated in violence since my first year in highschool which was long ago enough that it's almost depressing. © 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
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HW: good with teh funny alligators... "Oh shit! Alligator on my leg!!!" I did once; I might do it again if jafd says it's all right.
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My level of utter suck in SoF2 is definitely going down. One day, perhaps I can aspire to mediocre! Seriously though, disciplining myself to aim a little higher than I instinctively want to is working wonders. |
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Chris Johnson this is all true, and if the judgement had been made about what was presented, I don;t think there'd be any problem with it, beyond the general bitching. Agreed. A federal judge of a district court construing a state statute, it has very little precedential value. Missouri state courts aren't bound by this decision. They may feel persuaded by it, but stare decisis does not bind them on this issue. The plaintiffs have the burden of proof, and they barely picked it up in this case, that's what really irriates me the most. Not what the judge did. |
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but stare decisis does not bind them on this issue{/quote] Maybe so, but all I know is that stare decisis makes a damn find spackle. I believe I can fly......urk.
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I suck. I believe I can fly......urk.
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LPMiller Posting here, when you could be playing Camper of Fortune? |
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Everyone's getting better. m0nty's becoming a serious danger with that friggin GL =) Oh, and Leslie... if we keep meeting in the office like that, people are going to talk... -chris |
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chris Yah, I've got like an almost half-second edge over monty in ping, and he's at least four times better than I am. What's up with that? Of course, if you have a quick connect -- you can die, reconnect and be back alive in the same game again. That's probably a bug, I'm not saying I'd *abuse* it if I was losing, I'm just saying it is there. |
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I have to say I find sniping far too compelling. But I know it pisses people off. I did manage to kill someone with the thing firing from the hip, but I died too. |
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it's a definite bug, and I shudder to think of its abuse on public servers. SOF2 isn't enough to make me fully repent my dislike of tactical, wait-after-death, realistic-weapons games (I can think of about 100 ways it could be better... for me anyway), but I will admit to having a lot of fun on butter. It's not quite as organized as my clan days, but it's light years ahead of playing on a public server. -chris |
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Sniping is fun, but that whole zero peripheral vision thing makes me more paranoid than usual. |
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I'm torn about whether you should be allowed to do any more than pivot or lean while in the sniper sight. I think being able to actually move may be a little too much. |
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Hijaack, ninja-style; has anyone dealt with Verio as a colocation host? I use them for webhosting and they've done that pretty well. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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[g]chris Agreed. The whole "0wnag3!" stuff I can do with out. Although actually I wouldn't mind so much here if a PC'er did it. And I pretty much did get my head handed to me. Literally. And all of my teammates were very thoughtful tonight. None of them took me to task when my M60 auto-discharged repeatedly while their backs were turned. |
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