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FPS -- Is there anything left to uncover?
April 21st 2002, 14:53 CEST by ADoomedMarine Back in the days First Person Shooters were basically a "get a key to unlock the next door" type of affair and now we actually have objectives. Team based shooters have rised and developers are creating their games so that the public can help via modifications. But what else is their left to uncover? Sure there could be enhancements in the graphics and interactivity but what features can we expect in the future that will leave us saying "Wow, I never thought it would be possible". Is there a limit and one day will we see all games exactly alike? |
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Topic: FPS -- Is there anything left to uncover?
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Lay off the Crack Pipe. Just because you don't have a grasp on playing Jedi Knight2 doesn't mean the game is bad. Also.. I didn't know that Jedi Knight 2 was a mp focused title with Bots that you play through a ladder system. On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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The game is bad. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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You keep going back and forth trying to smack each other with the alt swing. Atleast it was CONSISTANT. And that's my point. Even from the start in JK, the saber didn't feel like it had a mind of its own. JK2's occationally listens to my pleas, but for the most part, the moment I press fire, the force guides it. The whole chained attack thing could have worked, perhaps, if there were more symbolic representation to explain HOW you were chaining attacks. This is what VISUAL FEEDBACK is for, folks; to explain what's happeneing in the game. All I'm seeing are fairly indistiguishable attacks, and I don't know where they're going next, because the controls I input don't feel like they're having much affect on the resultant swing. Perhaps I just need to learn the moves more, but I maintain that this could have been done far more intuitively. If after a couple of weeks of playing on a daily basis, I'm still feeling out of control, then I'm going to have to stop blaming my inadequacies, because I'm really NOT that bad. JK2 may not be the greatest game ever, but it earns more credit than you give it. It's not BAD. Nothing Raven ever does is BAD. Good? Usually. Outstanding? Nah (Hexen/II perhaps) Just because you don't have a grasp on playing Jedi Knight2 doesn't mean the game is bad. I said "not that great". I didn't say "bad". I have a lot of critisisms but that doesn't mean I hate it. And if I really DIDN'T enjoy it, it WOULD be a "bad game", because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My regards on a game don't make that regard universal. Just because I didn't enjoy something doesn't mean I'm impinging on your right to like it, so take your zealousy out from down my throat. You have to admit that while sabering LOOKS great, it could play better. I know that hand to hand combat in fairly fast moving FPS games is always tricky, but this hasn't really given all that much of a solution to the problem. And don't call me an "OMG NO SKILLZ LLAMA". It's not like I gave it five minutes play and dropped it. I certainly can[/]> kill with the saber, but often it's at times where I least expect or mean to, and when I MEAN to, nothing happens. It's just not as intuitive as it could be. It just looks really really pretty. Obi Wan once said that a lightsaber was not as clumsey and random as a blaster... if JK2 is any indication, then the guy was definately over the hill. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Petri will now stomp me 'til I'm dead. I will still think that 3rd person perspective and projectile weapons = big no-no though. Until proven otherwise, of course. Not that I think it'll happen any time soon. Problems with parrallax? I hate to use a Millerism, but, yeah, I've already thought of that. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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George - I suppose I could say "well, then, publishers need to give developers more than 18 months to make a game" But then I'd have to believe that might actually happen. -chris |
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Warren, post #83 I know, I know ... but it's surprisingly hard to find good computer desks. Seriously. Have you looked? I got my desk for about $250.00. The whole thing is about 8' long, and almost 32" deep. Manufactured by a company called Scanbirk, and I am pretty sure they still make them. |
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FAKK 2 had projectile weapons, didn't it? That game played great. |
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the sabering in JK2-Outcast is just about perfect, I was schooling people in DM, duel and CTF earlier today, nostromo speed pad + skillz == fun experience, whatever they threw at me was countered and `Dread Pirate Roberts` was coming up to them and introducing them to the pointy end of his saber, to the point where I could waltz in against 3 defenders, take the flag, leave them all in bits on the floor and cha cha cha back to my own base, taking my flag back off the speed merchants on the way back. the lightsaber is an elegant weapon, not as clumsy or random as a blaster, timing and spatial awareness at all times are the key to its use. Much to learn you have young padawan. FPS games ? Halo + Deus Ex + Op Flashpoint. Gimme an objective, gimme any limitations ie its gotta happen at 04:30am or covert op no blowing half the town up. Let me work out the best way for me to get from A to B and achieve C and setup things I can utilise given a bit of imagination. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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George Broussard: Because that's all you can make in 18 months. Too true. With everyone wanting to belt out as much as possible in the shortest span of time, it's no wonder all that gets to market are a bunch of mods in boxes. I suppose when it comes to making money, quantity and quality are relatively exchangeable. Just seems that most devs are willing to go the 'safe' route of clones, rather than invest times and money in to making something new and different. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Nova - I don't think it's usually the developers' choice. -chris |
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Warren: "Back during the early days of personal computers, people who had them were the real hackers who tended to be science fiction fans. Therefore, most of them wrote programs which were science fiction or fantasy related. As the computer market grows, that trend will reverse itself." Chris Crawford in a "recent" interview on his 1982 book The Art of Computer Games (Recommened) Where I was way off the mark was my optimism about the broadening of the marketplace. I believed that by this time we'd be seeing a wide range of entertainment software addressing a wide range of tastes. That has not happened; computer games now are completely unchanged in terms of their basic appeal. They are precisely the same fast-action shoot-em-ups or nerdy strategy games that we were dishing out 15 years ago. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Chris = Truth. A couple of Human Head guys are always cranking out great ideas. Do they ever get to do them? Nope. Why? Because those ideas don't have any sitation in recent popular videogames, ie if it hasn't been done before, we don't know if it'll sell. Score one to mediocraty. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Why is everyone using StarWars quotes as a replacement for reasoning? Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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the lightsaber is an elegant weapon, not as clumsy or random as a blaster The irony of this being that Kyle's blaster is one of only a few weapons in the game that actually fires straight. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Darkseid-D: Halo + Deus Ex + Op Flashpoint. You know, I think those are three great examples of how much ground is left to cover in FPS games. Personally, I think that halo is the funnest pure FPS I've ever played. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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Bezzy, spend some time with the saber, it's a practice to be sure. Maybe, and this is a maybe, but maybe I can see your point, that it doesn't always do whjat you want it. I had been chalking it up to ping, because the swing after that it would always go to what I wanted (in fast/medium styles). Maybe you're right, maybe not, but raven certainly knows how to do melee combat. Take a look at heretic 2. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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It looks spectacular, but I still think Rune holds the crown for melee's implementation, especially in HOV. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Where can we go with FPS's? I want locations that havent been done before ,new original and unique mission goals and objectives, i want to do things i havent done before in an FPS, weapons that are diverse and new ,interaction with everything in the gameworld, character interaction (emotion,caring about characters) Enemies and hostiles with behaviours that are new and unique that havent been seen before. That will do for starters.. 3DRealms take your time, counting on you.. :) Marty |
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Where can we go with FPS's? I want locations that havent been done before ,new original and unique mission goals and objectives, i want to do things i havent done before in an FPS, weapons that are diverse and new ,interaction with everything in the gameworld, character interaction (emotion,caring about characters) Enemies and hostiles with behaviours that are new and unique that havent been seen before. That will do for starters.. 3DRealms take your time, counting on you.. :) Marty |
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woops sorry for the double post... i clicked 'post' once..... honest....hon.. *voice trails off in the distance* Marty |
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chris, I never said it was their choice, I said that they were willing to go that route. When the day is over, the developer still decides what it is they do. If they are privately owned anyway. I know that there is far too much pressure from publishers to crank out mediocre rehashes... we're currently publisher shopping, and I get a first row seat of just how much they want mediocre crap. I also know that a lot of the time, the developer is financially forced to do whatever the publisher wants. Still, I don't agree with George completely. A good team can accomplish far more than a mod in 18 months; good teams tend to be few and far between however. Most teams are inexperienced, don't work well together, or suffer under bad management. Unless everything is perfect, 18 month schedules don't allow for all that much. I mean, look at Freedom Force. 18 month development. Sure, it's not the greatest game ever, but no one would accuse it of being a mod. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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And just to add a bit more... I think that far too often, developers expect to have a hard time pushing a new idea... so instead of even trying, they go with something that's more likely to snag a publisher. Clone clone clone. So whose fault is it really? Publishers for pushing clones? Or developers, for pitching clones, because they know that's what publishers want? Hard to say. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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I totally Forgot about Freedom force. I got it yesterday. Utterly addicted at this moment. The 18 month excuse is just that. An excuse. On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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Bezzy A couple of Human Head guys are always cranking out great ideas. Do they ever get to do them? Nope. Why? Because those ideas don't have any sitation in recent popular videogames, ie if it hasn't been done before, we don't know if it'll sell. Score one to mediocraty. Everyone has ideas. I'd bet everyone who plays games has their dream game in their head, fully planned out ... all they lack is money and a team to build it. I know I have mine, and I take strides towards reaching it in my spare time, but ... The reality is, products need to get done within timeframes and these products need to make money in order to keep the doors open. That's it in a nutshell. Taking chances isn't something that is financially smart. That sucks, but it's reality ... and it applies to any industry. As for Chris Crawford ... I find him too arrogant to take seriously. WoT?
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To clarify, this doesn't mean we won't move forward ... of course we will. But it's going to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Small steps, but we'll get where we're going. WoT?
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If i acted like I didn't know that was the case, Warren, I apologise. I think most people are constantly reminded of how little of a say they get in game dev, not because of anyone factor, but because of the state of things in general. Many factors work together to put a noose around creativity. And as you say, it sucks, but whatchagonnadoo? (hint: Go independant and suffer for your art. Or have a rich family. Or an excessively good deal with a publisher). As to Chris Crawford, I like the guy. I don't agree 100% with him, but basically, he's got a perspective that I agree with, and that's why I probably don't find him so arrogant (since he's preaching to the converted with me). That's just me, though. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Gotta say that I agree with a lot of what Bezzy is saying. I was impressed with the online portion of the game to start out with -- the little moves you can perform, the visual effects, etc. -- but as time went on, the game itself started to feel pretty shallow from a skill standpoint. While I admit you can squeeze a bit more control out of the saber than Bezzy is giving it credit for, the blocking, the hit detection, and the damage values all seem to be a bit too random. Players can also run equally as fast backwards (or in any direction) as they can forwards. As a consequence, duels degrade into monotonous twirl fests with enemies swiping at eachother, but never quite making any contact: They call Star Wars a space opera, but looking at the multiplayer game, you'd think it was a space ballet. The force powers are another big hang-up for me. Unlike Bezzy I have no qualm with the neutral force powers. I actually wish there was a way to enable just those. (I find that push and pull are countered in much the same way as blocking with your lightsaber -- it's automatic. Just as long as you're not performing any kind of action like jumping, or attacking someone, your character will automatically counter push or pull.) My problem is with the light vs. dark dynamic. As so many people have mentioned, it's analogous to a game of rock/paper/scissors; each power cancels something out, and in turn is cancelled out by another. Because of this, the end result of a confrontation -- assuming neither opponent fucks up -- is a force stalemate. You're doing all that work of chosing the right powers, at the right time, just to keep on even footing with the other guy; just so you can challenge him mano a mano, as if neither of you had any force powers to begin with! To me, that part of the game feels like treading water just to stay afloat -- hardly fun. I'd rather just do away with the formalities of light and dark and get on with the fight. As for the rest of the game, the traditional FPS weapons included just aren't anything special. I liken them to the first few levels of the single player campaign: Substandard. They're part of the game, but given the choice, people would prefer to just forget they were even included. PS. Drain is a whore despite what these light jedis are saying about absorb. Level 3 will still suck a light jedi dry of his force whether he's using absorb or not (it just wont let the dark jedi gain health from it), and the vader wannabe will still have plenty left to grip you into submission. |
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Oh, almost forgot. I hate -- absolutely, positively -- hate the fact that you can score a hit on an opponent winding up for a strong slash (red style), damage him, only to have him continue his slower, more powerful slash, unabated, and kill you with it. What, may I ask, is the point of having quicker, more flexible fighting styles, if you can't even get in close and whack away at the slow guy? Bad design, I think. |
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George Broussard FAKK 2 had projectile weapons, didn't it? That game played great. Hrm... Didn't it have auto-aiming, too? AnalFissure During the wind-up, try running in, fast slash, jump while pressing forward to do a somersault kick. Red stance leaves the player vulnerable to force attacks and off-balance, so they're pretty easy to knock on their ass and finish off with a saber throw or projectile weapon. Alternately, when you see their arms go back and pause, back the hell up, force push, (pulling would be inadvisable, obviously) then rush back in. Basically, red stance is for amateurs, unless they trap you in a corner, it's a pretty unlikely kill to anyone who's familiar with how the melee system works. What would Jesus warez?
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F.A.K.K. 2...hmm I don't remember anything from that game, so I probably didn't like it at all. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Bezzy, rune's implementation of melee is NOT at all what I want in a melee fighting game. Of course, JK2 isn't exactly it either, but it's a hell of a lot closer. Rune, everything's static. There's no dueling, it's a joust. HOV isn't any better, especially with their liquid movement and hand-axe blocking battle-axe idiocies. Rune's a good game, but it's no be all is all of melee combat, that's for Damned sure. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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Rune was pretty damn good melee combat, I'd like to see something like that in those dippy fantasy GIPs rather than pushing attack and going to get a drink. Similar to JK2 though, once you learn the patterns and counters, it's pretty easy to dominate. What would Jesus warez?
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Yeah, but I have a hard time equating "good melee combat" to "jump and click" with some strafing involved. in JK2 at least there's some difference as to what you can do in certain circumstances, in rune it's more or less always the same two things, depending on what weapon you're whoring with. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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Bailey: Thanks for the tip, but what happens if I'm playing on a no-force server? I still think it's a valid complaint about the way the basics of saber dueling were handled. I mean, if I see the guy taking a big wind-up, I think it would be cool if I could take advantage of his vulnerability by doing my nifty little blue-style-uppercut-type-move, and then chain that into something else. Instead, I'll do it and my blade slices through him from crotch to skull with little effect, leaving me vulnerable. I then get to watch his player model bump into mine and do that treadmill, running-in-place animation thing, while his lightsaber slowly descends upon me from the heavens, at a DNF developmental pace. At this point, a lesser jedi would actually spam the chat with "GH3Y!!!" a few billion times, but I'm cool enough that I can just spell it out verbally... To myself... Alone in my room... |
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When was the last time Chris Crawford made a game? Ever? 20 years? Wish he'd put up for a change. I don't see him being any different then...well, any of us, only he has guru status. Why? Will warez for food.
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Because the magical pixie dust of nostalgia works on game designers just as well as it does on movies, music, and the games themselves. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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I guess I come from a specialized area. I normally play saber only, lvl 7 force servers. Give me all force or no force -- I don't want the in-betweens. If I was playing on a lvl 4 server obviously my skills would have to change. Same if I was playing a weapons server. I do think that you need some more practice Bezzy but I'm not disagreeing with the fact of whether you like it or not -- that's your opinion and you're definitely welcome to it. I guess I'm used to the old skool JK1 dueling which, essentially, required you to swing waaaay ahead of time in order to tag someone -- that is unless you were lucky enough to play on a decent low-ping server. JK2 is such a blessing for me because when I swing at someone and I hit them on my screen -- I ACTUALLY hit them. It's a joy that words cannot express ;P The one thing that gets me everytime is saber-throw. I have got to learn to defend against it! It's the main cause of my death in all duels. Part of it is due to the fact that I'm using the slow, wide-open red style. The other part is, well, I need to work on my reaction time. Nahh, it's not MY skills that are lacking -- they're haxxors -- that's the ticket! :D #127 by AnalFissure I then get to watch his player model bump into mine and do that treadmill, running-in-place animation thing, while his lightsaber slowly descends upon me from the heavens, at a DNF developmental pace. I love that quote :) ... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
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Bezzy: Check out the saber combat FAQ at GameFAQs.com, well worth the read. |
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The problem with Rune's mêlée how I see it, is that you only had what, 4 different attacks (or 8 with jump, can't remember)? And they were all the same for all weapons, just minor differences. Became pretty boring fast IMO. Now...if Rune had combos like ONI's... "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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I have no clue whatsoever as to why I wrote Oni in all-caps. *scratches head* "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Bezzy; I disagree with almost all of what you wrote about JK2, but I can see where you're coming from, certainly. There's definitely a lot more room for feedback in the sabering. And, some of the balancing decisions that Raven made regarding multiplayer are... questionable. At best. And some of the tools the player has are ludicrously overpowered. One of the reasons for this is that it seems like every damn server out there is set for "Jedi Master" level; meaning, the player gets something like eleventy billion points to allocate to their Force. So, you end up with everyone maxxed out at level 3 in almost everything except Dark Rage, Mind Trick, and Seeing. I mean, yes, the combat is combat is utterly silly with Heal 3and SabOff3 and Jump3 and... bleah! As for red stance... I've taken to just taking SabOff1 and Def3 and to hell with the other stances beyond blue. My opinion changes, naturally, if I'm on a saber-only server, or if I'm suddenly finding myself not surrounded by fools who just wave their lightsaber around in my general direction while alternately spamming the Lightning and taunt keys. Not putting the dozen-odd points into SabOff allows me to max out important abilities... namely, Push/Pull and Jump. Everything else is just optional gravy and window dressing. If I happen to encounter someone who actually knows how to fight, and wants to do Challenges, I'll bump it up to level 2, because Blue vs. Yellow stance against a skilled player is pretty fruitless. Those annoying morons who were gripping everyone and throwing them off turn out to be REAL EASY to kill. Oh, absolutely. I'm really glad I got my fill of the Grip 'n' Throw Dog 'n' Pony Show in the first few days of the game's release, as there's damn few people out there anymore who are still able to be consistently taken in by that trick; and, make no mistake... it is a lot of fun. They scream allll the way down. After playing Dark a lot, a lot a lot, I'm pretty clear on its advantages and disadvantages. Nowadays, I'm almost always running with Absorb + Heal; as exciting as "Grip Throw" is, it rather pales in comparison to the excitement that "Never Dying" provides. Okay, so most of my critisisms are there to explain that the game is really not very fair, since a good proportion of the scoring is luck. One thing that really appeals to me about the game's setup... dying is completely irrelevant. You respawn with your best weapon immediately at hand, plus all your chosen Force abilities. I'll grant you, I find insta-dying in Quake3 to be hugely irritating, because then I have to run around and re-arm myself; not so in JK2. All I have to do is whip out my Schwartz and high-tail it for the place where I was, so I can put the hurtin' on the person who just killed me. I'll grant you this requires a certain... philosophy, in order to appreciate; the scoring on FFA weapon servers usually tends to be dominated by the ones with no hesitation about whipping out the area effect guns on a crowd of saberists. Which, to me, makes sense; if you want to do that let's-hold-hands-and-swing-our-Schwartzes-around thing, get thee to a Duel server, kthx. Especially since, for me, such people are much less of an issue, since I almost always select Pull, Speed, and SabDef at level 3. I laugh at people who whip out that Imperial Heavy Repeater crap. I'll try again, with your tips, but really, from what you're saying, it seems the game becomes about finding >the< right strategy for every situation. Scissors Paper Stone style. That's annoying, because once you've learnt what all the counters are, your only choice is to use the counter, or die. Choice is irrelevant. I don't dig that. Sorry. It's like most RTS games... what's THE strategy to use, and how fast can I do it? Now, here I totally disagree with you, Bezzy; yet I also very much understand the position you're coming from, because it's just how I felt at the very beginning of my multiplayer experiences in the game. For about an hour. I went from "OMG Grip + Drain are SO UBER BROKEN" to "Heal is so stupid!!" to "Wow, I can -crush- with -any- of these. Cool." I have played a fair bit on the pubservs, and I've been ownzored by Light side players, Dark side players, and players who appeared to just casually walk up to me and smite me down as though it was an afterthough for them. And I've done the same to enough people on purpose, that I know it isn't just "luck." Now, I can totally see that you wouldn't enjoy JK2 multiplayer, if you're not into the Scissors Paper Stone thing; indeed, in that case, you shouldn't bother to uncover the dynamics involved in this game, because it boils down to that, pretty much. The fact that you can mess around with configuring your abilities willl probably not hold any great appeal, since it will probably remain the case that most of the servers are going to have maximum Force points available. I don't much like games where you have to find out what tactic the other person is using, then select the counter for yourself, lather, rinse, repeat; but I don't find JK2 to be that way at all, mostly because I can choose 2 rocks, 1 paper, and a six-pack of scissors on-the-fly when I respawn, then come back and utterly annihilate whomever I choose, more or less. That appeals to me, greatly; especially because there's nothing stopping any clever and skilled player from doing exactly the same thing to me. You're certainly entitled to like or dislike whatever games you want, but it seems to me that most, if not all of your complaints about JK2 multiplayer are groundless. If you just don't like it because "it doesn't feel anything like Star Wars!!", as I think you may have been alluding to earlier... well, that's why I like it, actually. The single player feels like the movies; the multiplayer feels like an altogether more handsome beast. To my mind. You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
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What? (had to be done) WoT?
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I think I might be dead this time tomorrow. But i dunno. I feel real ill. It has been good. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Oops, sorry Warren, I didn't realize you were still relevant. Here, let me Marshall-size post #134: "The man who cannot dance, thinks the band is no good." You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
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Hulka, You, my friend, are the proverbial shit! I bought that Disney book you recommended and was glued to it the last two days. Any other suggestions? Arizona Diamondbacks 2001 World Series Champions
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jafd Oops, sorry Warren, I didn't realize you were still relevant. Here, let me Marshall-size post #134: "The man who cannot dance, thinks the band is no good." Oh unclench, it was a joke. WoT?
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Oh unclench, it was a joke. Oh. Does that mean you are the new joker? You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
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jafd/Warren debates are the new... uh... well, something anyway. shit. I'm no good at this. -chris |
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IWLB Now...if Rune had combos like ONI's... And avoided all of Oni's contrasting shitty issues like crappy control, uninspired level design, and laughably bad voice acting? The problem with combos is they don't play well with ping, as it would seem to be fairly reliant on keeping a pattern based on where your opponent is. What would Jesus warez?
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Bezzy: I have found that using the SP map 'ladder' will greatly increase your understanding and ability with the saber. http://www.jediknight2files.com/sort.files?cat=727&ref=670 You can get it at the above link. Just add it to your base folder and then open the console in game and type 'devmap ladder' to start it. In it you fight 54 Reborn, in groups from 1 to 5. Very handy for tinkering with your saber styles. Side note: I think it uses the level of difficulty from your current SP game, and at the end you will fight a couple of the bosses from the game. So if you haven't finished the SP portion, this could spoil it for you. I'm sure something witty belongs here, but I'm just not up to the task. No wait, I don't care. Yeah, much cooler.
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