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FPS -- Is there anything left to uncover?
April 21st 2002, 14:53 CEST by ADoomedMarine Back in the days First Person Shooters were basically a "get a key to unlock the next door" type of affair and now we actually have objectives. Team based shooters have rised and developers are creating their games so that the public can help via modifications. But what else is their left to uncover? Sure there could be enhancements in the graphics and interactivity but what features can we expect in the future that will leave us saying "Wow, I never thought it would be possible". Is there a limit and one day will we see all games exactly alike? |
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Topic: FPS -- Is there anything left to uncover?
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maybe I should have written "Internet Browsers -- Is there anything left to uncover?" heh :P |
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It would have been a more intelligent topic. "Is there anything left to uncover?" Geebuz, you didn't do much other than watch TV as a child did you? Not much imagination of your own, huh? Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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PlanetCrap: for all your eDonkeybot helpdesk support needs. |
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Thinking... |
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Second the co-op motion. All in favor? Aye. and cross-game support, particularly for war games and simulations; e.g. FPS coupled to aircraft sim coupled to naval warfare sim. |
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I have the bot running right now, no problems. Warez is naughty, saving your game is a personal choice and the coffee was just too damn hot.
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Well, look at it this way : until Deus Ex or Thief came out, nobody thought of those things. There's new ground to cover, we just don't know what it is. In time ... WoT?
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Thinking... --
Rambar |
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I love that Thinking... It's brilliant. --
Rambar |
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jjohnsen When was the last time you shut it down? I think it only needs to retrieve the server list if it's been offlined post D-Day. Stuck flat smack dab in the middle of a century with nothing to lose.
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It's hard to say what's next without a good knowledge of what can be done as far as tech and gameplay goes. Bailey described a MMOG in another thread some time ago that I'd love to play but there is no way in hell that it'll ever see that light of day, mostly because the tech isn't there. I think that the same can be said for FPS's. I'm not to sure that there is all that much to add to the FPS genre, a lot of good stuff has been done and can be done again, hopefully a bit refined though. What I would like is for tech to evolve, not just grow. I don't need higher resolutions or higher frames per second. I want something that can provide me with proper feedback, triggering all my senses, not just part of my vision and my hearing. I want a screen that shows me 360 degrees of the environment, I want to be able to use my limbs as I would in real life and not rely on my mouse and keyboard, I want smells and I want true positional audio. And I want a cheese helmet. Until we get tech that can deliver a "bigger" experience it might be hard to evolve the FPS genre beyond what we have today. Just a thought. -- Martin
Enough with giving away love. Now I'm sad and lonely. I need a hug. |
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More co-op SP please. That is all. Civilized barcode, quick id.
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Martin Bailey described a MMOG in another thread some time ago that I'd love to play but there is no way in hell that it'll ever see that light of day, mostly because the tech isn't there. Like every other jackass on the planet, I've got a design doc, and all those wants and needs have been incorporated into said document. It's in a sealed oversized manila envelope with big red letters on the front saying "WORLD'S GREATEST MMOG: DO NOT OPEN UNTIL 2010", surrounded by a bunch of very professional Hello Kitty stickers. So I've got eight years to get into the industry, garner a few million dollars, and form a crack(baby) development team! How hard can it possibly be? Ashiran Co-op SP? Like Daikatana? Or co-op SP like Serious Sam? What would Jesus warez?
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Not that I enjoy proving people stupid on every turn, I hate it because they're not, but there is a small blunder here: …features can we expect in the future that will leave us saying "Wow, I never thought it would be possible". Kind of beats the point of your own question… How can we talk/know about it, if in the future we will realize it we never though/knew of it, in the past (hence now…) EXAMPLE: In the future we will have shooters with dead goats! … … … … … [FUTURE] Wow it’s the future, I never though of them, dead goats in shooters… even 6 lines earlier! Another thing: Serious Sam rocked my boat What? I thought it seriously sucked! They said Spherical-shaped structures of levels to compete with halo, but there was none of that…. And for the load of monsters experience just pick some old game from the cellar and make a map cranked up with them… Ok, they had the decency to make it cheap, though... |
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On Topic: Deus Ex has proved that there is depth to the genre, not that any game has really taken up the mantle since. It's a pity, but there are so many games that have come out since then and are coming out that stick to the corridor+gun combination, and don't actually try to involve the player in decision making. There's much more ground to cover in FPS, that much is obvious, but whether developers will pull there finger out and actually take the plunge any time soon is a different matter. -- ex Spatula Man --
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Or Global Operations - co-op SP with bots. Kittens fucking burn.
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Bailey, I shut it down a couple of days ago, so maybe I missed the daeline. So you're saying I should restart anytime soon? Warez is naughty, saving your game is a personal choice and the coffee was just too damn hot.
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shouldn't restart, shouldn't Warez is naughty, saving your game is a personal choice and the coffee was just too damn hot.
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Unfortunately, it looks like killing the bot saved the network. Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem
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Well, I imagine the bot will stick around, just without fast find which seemed to be the major problem. As long as they keep the server update I'll be happy. Will warez for food.
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O.k. I just had to restart and you were right it screwed up the bot, so I'm with the rest of you now. Warez is naughty, saving your game is a personal choice and the coffee was just too damn hot.
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Bear in mind, TIE Fighter was an FPS. If you're saying "Is there anything more we can do with first person perspective and a gun and a lone soldier and hordes of enemies and and and something else really specific" then duh. Ofcourse there's nothing left to do. If you're merely talking about the presentation of a game (any game) using the First Person, then there's a wealth of things going on. I'm privy to a few projects that I can't mention which should hopefully make a few major paradigm shifts, rather than sticking to this bored, tired formula of Health and Ammo Management + Save/Load cycling. Operation Flashpoint is a good example of where FPS games can go - big and expansive, rather than a tube through which you must past to get to the next plot piece. Sure, in OFP there's still a start and a finish to every level, but you can do shitting anything to achieve your objective. Find a chopper, shoot its guards and nick it, even if it's 10 miles away from the radar array you have to destroy. The interval between required criterior for the player to accomplish is fairly big, whereas in a typical JK2 or SOF2 the next mini objective (kill the guard, flick the switch) is a few feet away from the last one. Widening the range of possibility between set objectives means that the designer has less narrative control, but then these are games, where the player's narrative control over the game is a desired currency (unto the point where the game has no goal and becomes a toy?). If you want narrative control, just work in films or writing. For me, game design is about making interesting domains of rules for a player to explore. It's not about forcing a player to work through a set plot. Dood, JK2's multiplayer is not that great. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Since we were sharing pics in the other thread ... My main PC. A 2 computer network. Yes, my computer desk sucks. Shut up. If you look closely at the left monitor, you could steal some code from our latest project! Across the room, my Commodore set up. The monitor on the right side of the desk is for my black Dreamcast (good for killing time during long compiles). A brief glimpse into my life. WoT?
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It's quake 3 with lightsabers and the heavy machinegun from SOF. How can you claim it not to be great? May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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What the hell, one more ... the shelves near the door in my computer room: Yoshi, Mario and Ozzy - together again! WoT?
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jjohnsen I shut it down a couple of days ago, so maybe I missed the daeline. So you're saying I should restart anytime soon? I wouldn't recommend it. O.k. I just had to restart and you were right it screwed up the bot, so I'm with the rest of you now. As you recall, I did not recommend that. What would Jesus warez?
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Warren A brief glimpse into my life. The walls of your life are barren and need decoration. What would Jesus warez?
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My scanning software blew up in the middle of something, so your warning didn't help. I had to update my server list here Warren do those top ten red and blue run under XP (the ones in your picture)? Warez is naughty, saving your game is a personal choice and the coffee was just too damn hot.
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jeesus you guys miss these so easily.. Warren... DUDE YOU GOTTA DELL!! On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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Bailey The walls of your life are barren and need decoration. My soul is empty, therefore, so are my walls. jjohnsen Warren do those top ten red and blue run under XP (the ones in your picture)? Yep. WoT?
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Warren Just curious -- doesn't using two different mice drive you absolutely nuts? |
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I gotta Dell? How does one "Dell", exactly? Is it a dance? WoT?
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HiredGoons I don't use the other computer for much ... just email, ripping CDs to MP3, etc. For the small slice of time I use it, it's not that big a deal. WoT?
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jjohnsen My scanning software blew up in the middle of something, so your warning didn't help. I had to update my server list here Hrm. His server.met descriptions are a little bit ambiguous at best. "the good ones", "the nice ones"? What the hell does that mean? What would Jesus warez?
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Hmm, I want to be able to play out large scale wars in an FPS. So 20.000 bots on side A, 19.999 bots on side b and me :) Would work great in multiplayer games too, since it would be hard to tell who is a human player (at least it should be.) But apart from wars, we need FPS games with a large amount of non-human players in all kinds of other settings. Imagine walking through the streets of a huge crowded city and when you fire a shot, everyone starts screaming and running away? And yes I've seen GTA3, but we need thousands of smart bots. |
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#63 by sentinel Hmm, I want to be able to play out large scale wars in an FPS. So 20.000 bots on side A, 19.999 bots on side b and me :) Would work great in multiplayer games too, since it would be hard to tell who is a human player (at least it should be.) But apart from wars, we need FPS games with a large amount of non-human players in all kinds of other settings. Imagine walking through the streets of a huge crowded city and when you fire a shot, everyone starts screaming and running away? And yes I've seen GTA3, but we need thousands of smart bots. ...Obligatory Slashdot-esque response: Boy, imagine the Beowulf cluster needed to do that! ... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
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Warren doesn't watch much tv. On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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No, you're just an idiot. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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The Light Sabering seems basically random. People only use the red stance because you're never guaranteed a hit, but when you DO make contact, red can/will kill in one hit. Plus there's some sort of broken somersaulty special move with it which is supposed to kill even when blocked. You can virtually never Force Pull weapons out of people's hand to stop them from spamming the Heavy Repeater's secondary fire, which is also broken (balance wise). Wall running is implemented really badly... you have this lame little animation play every time you use it, rather than having any actual control over it. This could have been so much better/more useful. The same sort of thing goes for general fencing... you press a combination of keys, which triggers a move that usually has little or no relevance to which direction you were facing/moving, so it has been made fairly difficult to CHOOSE what slash you want to do, unlike Rune, which was fairly consistant and unambiguous in its combat. In other words, it looks freakin' marvellous, but you have little or no control over what's happening. You may as well roll a dice to see who wins, because, to a degree, skill has been thrown out the window. This is a general annoyance with a lot of games... the way special moves and the like are really just one shot ponies... you try it for the first time, and it looks awesome. After the fiftieth time, you start to get bored, because even though a move may eradicate everything on screen, it's not really you who's doing it. The things you achieve due to using this prescriped anim are not really earned by you. When you dive in midair in Max Payne, you have no control over the direction you move, and everything is easy to hit. As you play more and more, you begin to realize that bullet time leaping is not a great skill that max has... it simply creates a great void of skill for you to abuse. You just trigger the effect and let the game do the rest. Big whoop. (Back to JK2) As far as the force powers are concerned, they're fairly well implemented (thank God Force Jump is just a held jump, and that saber throw is now a secondary), and there has been some attempt at balance, but most find that the tactics have come down to two strategies, one for dark (Draining/lightening abuse), one for light (heal-tastic. This happened in one of my mods, too, so I fixed it.. by taking it out). If any strategy greatly outweighs others in terms of payoff, then that strategy is broken. Levels with death pits become annoying, because there's often not a whole lot you can do to combat people pushing you - like a shot from a railgun, there comes a point in everyone's skill with the weapon that the target can't do much of anything to avoid the attack. When someone kills you with a shotgun/railgun, it's not usually because you fucked up. It's just because they nailed you - but you have no effective way to counter, so you're punished by being killed, but it's not actually your fault. Atleast with a projectile weapon, you can dodge... hitscans don't give you a choice. Push is like an area affect hitscan weapon, making it easier for the enemy to nail you, without it being your fault. Once you're in the air and falling, there's no way to get back (this is where GOOd wall running would have come in handy - being able to force jump off walls (a little like chun li and vega do) would be fun, and a great way to counter people knocking you off the world constantly). Apart from that, it's yet another thrown together Designer's weapons collection of arbitrarily chosen primary/secondary fire combinations. Whether it's innovative or not is not in question, or even a factor. It becomes immensely stale, fast. Okay, so most of my critisisms are there to explain that the game is really not very fair, since a good proportion of the scoring is luck. This just means that it can't (morally) be used as a professional game (same reason CounterStrike shouldn't be played professionally). So what IS multiplayer there for? Just fun, I guess - fun set in the starwars universe. You realize that this is not particularly evoking a sense of the Star Wars universe to you. And then you realize that all this bloated broiling pot of "neet ideas" is akin to Unreal 4 Ever in its tastelessness. After you've mixed and matched a few tactics, and realize that the kills you get are fairly independant of your skill, you realize how much time you've wasted when you should be revising! If you only have 11 months to make a game, design a game you can make in 11 months. Don't make one that needs atleast 18 months and then bitch about the time. I like the SP, but shoehorning a single player game into a multiplayer one rarely works (and vice versa). OH "IMHO" BY THE WAY Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Warren, when I worked on a dreamcast game I had my devkit hooked up to one of those commodore monitors as well. Was great! Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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#67 by Bezzy The Light Sabering seems basically random. People only use the red stance because you're never guaranteed a hit, but when you DO make contact, red can/will kill in one hit. Plus there's some sort of broken somersaulty special move with it which is supposed to kill even when blocked. Actually it's not that random if you've read the manual :P The type of strike you do depends on the combination of when you push the fire button/key and which direction(s) you are going. Red saber <strong> rocks but it's a challenge when you're dueling someone who is skilled in blue or yellow saber styles.. With the red style timing is everything and it leaves you totally open to saber-throws and quick inside moves. To each his own I guess. As far as the "broken somersaulty special move" it's not broken -- it's meant to be that way. Use some strategy. If the person is doing that move -- which is very obvious because it takes some time to pull off -- dodge it. Roll out of the way, force push the person, whatever, just get out of the way :P I'm not responding to anything in regards to weapons other than the saber since I'm just a saberist... The same sort of thing goes for general fencing... you press a combination of keys, which triggers a move that usually has little or no relevance to which direction you were facing/moving, so it has been made fairly difficult to CHOOSE what slash you want to do, unlike Rune, which was fairly consistant and unambiguous in its combat. In other words, it looks freakin' marvellous, but you have little or no control over what's happening. You may as well roll a dice to see who wins, because, to a degree, skill has been thrown out the window. Again I disagree with your opinion, not that mine is any better ;) I will say that Rune's dueling was very, very cool in the amount of control that you had. But I wouldn't just say that JK2's dueling is "random". It's all in the timing if you're using red; if you're using blue or yellow timing and combos make the difference. Read the manual -- it helps a lot with the saber moves and styles. (Back to JK2) As far as the force powers are concerned, they're fairly well implemented (thank God Force Jump is just a held jump, and that saber throw is now a secondary), and there has been some attempt at balance, but most find that the tactics have come down to two strategies, one for dark (Draining/lightening abuse), one for light (heal-tastic. This happened in one of my mods, too, so I fixed it.. by taking it out). If any strategy greatly outweighs others in terms of payoff, then that strategy is broken. I play mostly light -- and draining/lightening no longer bother me. They did at first, but I've gotten very good at using absorb to my benefit. In fact, I almost never use anything other than absorb, jump, saber throw and the defense and offense when in battle. Afterwards I'll heal but I can't afford to heal if I am using absorb. So it comes down to "kill, don't be killed". Dark vs Light -- if the Darkie is gripping/draining/lightning -- absorb it. If the Lightie is "heal-tastic", drain the mofo so he can't heal. Plus draining heals you so you win in both ways ;) Levels with death pits become annoying, because there's often not a whole lot you can do to combat people pushing you Not true if you're light -- absorb iz teh bomb. No one EVER pushes/pulls/grips me off an edge because I use absorb. Practice a bit more and you'll notice a world of difference when playing opponents. Those annoying morons who were gripping everyone and throwing them off turn out to be REAL EASY to kill. Nothing is better than walking up to some fool trying to force grip/pull/push you off, not realizing you're absorbing everything, and batting him/her off the edge using a red saber :) ... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
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Thumbing through some of my old Commodore magazines ... great quote from someone working at Infocom on text adventures: "Back during the early days of personal computers, people who had them were the real hackers who tended to be science fiction fans. Therefore, most of them wrote programs which were science fiction or fantasy related. As the computer market grows, that trend will reverse itself." That was in 1985. I guess we're still waiting. Heh. WoT?
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Warren: You think your desk sucks? Mine is a door, attached to the wall and with two crappy wooden legs to hold the front end up. Looks like complete arse, but it's deeper than any desk I've seen. Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
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Bezzy You can virtually never Force Pull weapons out of people's hand to stop them from spamming the Heavy Repeater's secondary fire, which is also broken (balance wise). (derisive snorting) Padawan, please. Push the secondary fire, pull them towards you, and pull once more to rip the gun out of their hands and into you own. I can rip a guy's entire armory off him in five seconds. Omega covered most of the other issues, but all I gotta say is it sounds like you need a lot more practice at MP combat. Red stance is great, as long as your opponent is willing to stand still and not do anything to you. Someone pushes you off a ledge? Pull them after you, or absorb. Someone drains? Gun their ass down. Someone heals? Throw 'em into a pit or nuke 'em. They'll run out of force before you run out of ammo, as long as you know item placement on the levels. Everything has a counter. What would Jesus warez?
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#41 Bailey Like every other jackass on the planet, I've got a design doc, and all those wants and needs have been incorporated into said document. Pfft, get in line. It's humbling to know that, if I just try hard enough, I can be one of those jackasses. |
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Warren: Where did you get that black wireless keyboard? I've looked for one for while now and I haven't been able to find one. Nice setup, and I know you said not to hassle you about it but, get a new desk! Florida is the New Nazi FuckMonkeys.
-LPMiller (warzed quote, used without permission) |
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Jedi 1's saber control seemed so much nicer. Strafe right and fire and you give them a quick whack from the right. same with the left. In JK2 i didn't know what the hell was happening. I played it once more, sabers only, forces off, and I have to say that every kill I made was unintentional. I'll try again, with your tips, but really, from what you're saying, it seems the game becomes about finding >the< right strategy for every situation. Scissors Paper Stone style. That's annoying, because once you've learnt what all the counters are, your only choice is to use the counter, or die. Choice is irrelevant. I don't dig that. Sorry. It's like most RTS games... what's THE strategy to use, and how fast can I do it? Bailey Padawan, please. Shut up and you know it. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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You think your desk sucks? Mine is a door Mine isn't a door, but it is a mess... i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Warren, what did you think of Jim Blinn's Corner? i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Not true if you're light -- absorb iz teh bomb. No one EVER pushes/pulls/grips me off an edge because I use absorb. If you're light. See, am I going to be forced to use light because of stuff like this? That ain't playing a game. That's conforming to design. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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