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FPS -- Is there anything left to uncover?
April 21st 2002, 14:53 CEST by ADoomedMarine Back in the days First Person Shooters were basically a "get a key to unlock the next door" type of affair and now we actually have objectives. Team based shooters have rised and developers are creating their games so that the public can help via modifications. But what else is their left to uncover? Sure there could be enhancements in the graphics and interactivity but what features can we expect in the future that will leave us saying "Wow, I never thought it would be possible". Is there a limit and one day will we see all games exactly alike? |
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Topic: FPS -- Is there anything left to uncover?
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Where can we go with FPS's? I want locations that havent been done before ,new original and unique mission goals and objectives, i want to do things i havent done before in an FPS, weapons that are diverse and new ,interaction with everything in the gameworld, character interaction (emotion,caring about characters) Enemies and hostiles with behaviours that are new and unique that havent been seen before. That will do for starters.. 3DRealms take your time, counting on you.. :) Marty |
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Where can we go with FPS's? I want locations that havent been done before ,new original and unique mission goals and objectives, i want to do things i havent done before in an FPS, weapons that are diverse and new ,interaction with everything in the gameworld, character interaction (emotion,caring about characters) Enemies and hostiles with behaviours that are new and unique that havent been seen before. That will do for starters.. 3DRealms take your time, counting on you.. :) Marty |
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woops sorry for the double post... i clicked 'post' once..... honest....hon.. *voice trails off in the distance* Marty |
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chris, I never said it was their choice, I said that they were willing to go that route. When the day is over, the developer still decides what it is they do. If they are privately owned anyway. I know that there is far too much pressure from publishers to crank out mediocre rehashes... we're currently publisher shopping, and I get a first row seat of just how much they want mediocre crap. I also know that a lot of the time, the developer is financially forced to do whatever the publisher wants. Still, I don't agree with George completely. A good team can accomplish far more than a mod in 18 months; good teams tend to be few and far between however. Most teams are inexperienced, don't work well together, or suffer under bad management. Unless everything is perfect, 18 month schedules don't allow for all that much. I mean, look at Freedom Force. 18 month development. Sure, it's not the greatest game ever, but no one would accuse it of being a mod. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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And just to add a bit more... I think that far too often, developers expect to have a hard time pushing a new idea... so instead of even trying, they go with something that's more likely to snag a publisher. Clone clone clone. So whose fault is it really? Publishers for pushing clones? Or developers, for pitching clones, because they know that's what publishers want? Hard to say. Bailey: Beep beep, motherfucker.
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I totally Forgot about Freedom force. I got it yesterday. Utterly addicted at this moment. The 18 month excuse is just that. An excuse. On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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Bezzy A couple of Human Head guys are always cranking out great ideas. Do they ever get to do them? Nope. Why? Because those ideas don't have any sitation in recent popular videogames, ie if it hasn't been done before, we don't know if it'll sell. Score one to mediocraty. Everyone has ideas. I'd bet everyone who plays games has their dream game in their head, fully planned out ... all they lack is money and a team to build it. I know I have mine, and I take strides towards reaching it in my spare time, but ... The reality is, products need to get done within timeframes and these products need to make money in order to keep the doors open. That's it in a nutshell. Taking chances isn't something that is financially smart. That sucks, but it's reality ... and it applies to any industry. As for Chris Crawford ... I find him too arrogant to take seriously. WoT?
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To clarify, this doesn't mean we won't move forward ... of course we will. But it's going to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Small steps, but we'll get where we're going. WoT?
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If i acted like I didn't know that was the case, Warren, I apologise. I think most people are constantly reminded of how little of a say they get in game dev, not because of anyone factor, but because of the state of things in general. Many factors work together to put a noose around creativity. And as you say, it sucks, but whatchagonnadoo? (hint: Go independant and suffer for your art. Or have a rich family. Or an excessively good deal with a publisher). As to Chris Crawford, I like the guy. I don't agree 100% with him, but basically, he's got a perspective that I agree with, and that's why I probably don't find him so arrogant (since he's preaching to the converted with me). That's just me, though. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Gotta say that I agree with a lot of what Bezzy is saying. I was impressed with the online portion of the game to start out with -- the little moves you can perform, the visual effects, etc. -- but as time went on, the game itself started to feel pretty shallow from a skill standpoint. While I admit you can squeeze a bit more control out of the saber than Bezzy is giving it credit for, the blocking, the hit detection, and the damage values all seem to be a bit too random. Players can also run equally as fast backwards (or in any direction) as they can forwards. As a consequence, duels degrade into monotonous twirl fests with enemies swiping at eachother, but never quite making any contact: They call Star Wars a space opera, but looking at the multiplayer game, you'd think it was a space ballet. The force powers are another big hang-up for me. Unlike Bezzy I have no qualm with the neutral force powers. I actually wish there was a way to enable just those. (I find that push and pull are countered in much the same way as blocking with your lightsaber -- it's automatic. Just as long as you're not performing any kind of action like jumping, or attacking someone, your character will automatically counter push or pull.) My problem is with the light vs. dark dynamic. As so many people have mentioned, it's analogous to a game of rock/paper/scissors; each power cancels something out, and in turn is cancelled out by another. Because of this, the end result of a confrontation -- assuming neither opponent fucks up -- is a force stalemate. You're doing all that work of chosing the right powers, at the right time, just to keep on even footing with the other guy; just so you can challenge him mano a mano, as if neither of you had any force powers to begin with! To me, that part of the game feels like treading water just to stay afloat -- hardly fun. I'd rather just do away with the formalities of light and dark and get on with the fight. As for the rest of the game, the traditional FPS weapons included just aren't anything special. I liken them to the first few levels of the single player campaign: Substandard. They're part of the game, but given the choice, people would prefer to just forget they were even included. PS. Drain is a whore despite what these light jedis are saying about absorb. Level 3 will still suck a light jedi dry of his force whether he's using absorb or not (it just wont let the dark jedi gain health from it), and the vader wannabe will still have plenty left to grip you into submission. |
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Oh, almost forgot. I hate -- absolutely, positively -- hate the fact that you can score a hit on an opponent winding up for a strong slash (red style), damage him, only to have him continue his slower, more powerful slash, unabated, and kill you with it. What, may I ask, is the point of having quicker, more flexible fighting styles, if you can't even get in close and whack away at the slow guy? Bad design, I think. |
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George Broussard FAKK 2 had projectile weapons, didn't it? That game played great. Hrm... Didn't it have auto-aiming, too? AnalFissure During the wind-up, try running in, fast slash, jump while pressing forward to do a somersault kick. Red stance leaves the player vulnerable to force attacks and off-balance, so they're pretty easy to knock on their ass and finish off with a saber throw or projectile weapon. Alternately, when you see their arms go back and pause, back the hell up, force push, (pulling would be inadvisable, obviously) then rush back in. Basically, red stance is for amateurs, unless they trap you in a corner, it's a pretty unlikely kill to anyone who's familiar with how the melee system works. What would Jesus warez?
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F.A.K.K. 2...hmm I don't remember anything from that game, so I probably didn't like it at all. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Bezzy, rune's implementation of melee is NOT at all what I want in a melee fighting game. Of course, JK2 isn't exactly it either, but it's a hell of a lot closer. Rune, everything's static. There's no dueling, it's a joust. HOV isn't any better, especially with their liquid movement and hand-axe blocking battle-axe idiocies. Rune's a good game, but it's no be all is all of melee combat, that's for Damned sure. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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Rune was pretty damn good melee combat, I'd like to see something like that in those dippy fantasy GIPs rather than pushing attack and going to get a drink. Similar to JK2 though, once you learn the patterns and counters, it's pretty easy to dominate. What would Jesus warez?
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Yeah, but I have a hard time equating "good melee combat" to "jump and click" with some strafing involved. in JK2 at least there's some difference as to what you can do in certain circumstances, in rune it's more or less always the same two things, depending on what weapon you're whoring with. May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you. |
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Bailey: Thanks for the tip, but what happens if I'm playing on a no-force server? I still think it's a valid complaint about the way the basics of saber dueling were handled. I mean, if I see the guy taking a big wind-up, I think it would be cool if I could take advantage of his vulnerability by doing my nifty little blue-style-uppercut-type-move, and then chain that into something else. Instead, I'll do it and my blade slices through him from crotch to skull with little effect, leaving me vulnerable. I then get to watch his player model bump into mine and do that treadmill, running-in-place animation thing, while his lightsaber slowly descends upon me from the heavens, at a DNF developmental pace. At this point, a lesser jedi would actually spam the chat with "GH3Y!!!" a few billion times, but I'm cool enough that I can just spell it out verbally... To myself... Alone in my room... |
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When was the last time Chris Crawford made a game? Ever? 20 years? Wish he'd put up for a change. I don't see him being any different then...well, any of us, only he has guru status. Why? Will warez for food.
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Because the magical pixie dust of nostalgia works on game designers just as well as it does on movies, music, and the games themselves. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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I guess I come from a specialized area. I normally play saber only, lvl 7 force servers. Give me all force or no force -- I don't want the in-betweens. If I was playing on a lvl 4 server obviously my skills would have to change. Same if I was playing a weapons server. I do think that you need some more practice Bezzy but I'm not disagreeing with the fact of whether you like it or not -- that's your opinion and you're definitely welcome to it. I guess I'm used to the old skool JK1 dueling which, essentially, required you to swing waaaay ahead of time in order to tag someone -- that is unless you were lucky enough to play on a decent low-ping server. JK2 is such a blessing for me because when I swing at someone and I hit them on my screen -- I ACTUALLY hit them. It's a joy that words cannot express ;P The one thing that gets me everytime is saber-throw. I have got to learn to defend against it! It's the main cause of my death in all duels. Part of it is due to the fact that I'm using the slow, wide-open red style. The other part is, well, I need to work on my reaction time. Nahh, it's not MY skills that are lacking -- they're haxxors -- that's the ticket! :D #127 by AnalFissure I then get to watch his player model bump into mine and do that treadmill, running-in-place animation thing, while his lightsaber slowly descends upon me from the heavens, at a DNF developmental pace. I love that quote :) ... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
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Bezzy: Check out the saber combat FAQ at GameFAQs.com, well worth the read. |
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The problem with Rune's mêlée how I see it, is that you only had what, 4 different attacks (or 8 with jump, can't remember)? And they were all the same for all weapons, just minor differences. Became pretty boring fast IMO. Now...if Rune had combos like ONI's... "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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I have no clue whatsoever as to why I wrote Oni in all-caps. *scratches head* "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Bezzy; I disagree with almost all of what you wrote about JK2, but I can see where you're coming from, certainly. There's definitely a lot more room for feedback in the sabering. And, some of the balancing decisions that Raven made regarding multiplayer are... questionable. At best. And some of the tools the player has are ludicrously overpowered. One of the reasons for this is that it seems like every damn server out there is set for "Jedi Master" level; meaning, the player gets something like eleventy billion points to allocate to their Force. So, you end up with everyone maxxed out at level 3 in almost everything except Dark Rage, Mind Trick, and Seeing. I mean, yes, the combat is combat is utterly silly with Heal 3and SabOff3 and Jump3 and... bleah! As for red stance... I've taken to just taking SabOff1 and Def3 and to hell with the other stances beyond blue. My opinion changes, naturally, if I'm on a saber-only server, or if I'm suddenly finding myself not surrounded by fools who just wave their lightsaber around in my general direction while alternately spamming the Lightning and taunt keys. Not putting the dozen-odd points into SabOff allows me to max out important abilities... namely, Push/Pull and Jump. Everything else is just optional gravy and window dressing. If I happen to encounter someone who actually knows how to fight, and wants to do Challenges, I'll bump it up to level 2, because Blue vs. Yellow stance against a skilled player is pretty fruitless. Those annoying morons who were gripping everyone and throwing them off turn out to be REAL EASY to kill. Oh, absolutely. I'm really glad I got my fill of the Grip 'n' Throw Dog 'n' Pony Show in the first few days of the game's release, as there's damn few people out there anymore who are still able to be consistently taken in by that trick; and, make no mistake... it is a lot of fun. They scream allll the way down. After playing Dark a lot, a lot a lot, I'm pretty clear on its advantages and disadvantages. Nowadays, I'm almost always running with Absorb + Heal; as exciting as "Grip Throw" is, it rather pales in comparison to the excitement that "Never Dying" provides. Okay, so most of my critisisms are there to explain that the game is really not very fair, since a good proportion of the scoring is luck. One thing that really appeals to me about the game's setup... dying is completely irrelevant. You respawn with your best weapon immediately at hand, plus all your chosen Force abilities. I'll grant you, I find insta-dying in Quake3 to be hugely irritating, because then I have to run around and re-arm myself; not so in JK2. All I have to do is whip out my Schwartz and high-tail it for the place where I was, so I can put the hurtin' on the person who just killed me. I'll grant you this requires a certain... philosophy, in order to appreciate; the scoring on FFA weapon servers usually tends to be dominated by the ones with no hesitation about whipping out the area effect guns on a crowd of saberists. Which, to me, makes sense; if you want to do that let's-hold-hands-and-swing-our-Schwartzes-around thing, get thee to a Duel server, kthx. Especially since, for me, such people are much less of an issue, since I almost always select Pull, Speed, and SabDef at level 3. I laugh at people who whip out that Imperial Heavy Repeater crap. I'll try again, with your tips, but really, from what you're saying, it seems the game becomes about finding >the< right strategy for every situation. Scissors Paper Stone style. That's annoying, because once you've learnt what all the counters are, your only choice is to use the counter, or die. Choice is irrelevant. I don't dig that. Sorry. It's like most RTS games... what's THE strategy to use, and how fast can I do it? Now, here I totally disagree with you, Bezzy; yet I also very much understand the position you're coming from, because it's just how I felt at the very beginning of my multiplayer experiences in the game. For about an hour. I went from "OMG Grip + Drain are SO UBER BROKEN" to "Heal is so stupid!!" to "Wow, I can -crush- with -any- of these. Cool." I have played a fair bit on the pubservs, and I've been ownzored by Light side players, Dark side players, and players who appeared to just casually walk up to me and smite me down as though it was an afterthough for them. And I've done the same to enough people on purpose, that I know it isn't just "luck." Now, I can totally see that you wouldn't enjoy JK2 multiplayer, if you're not into the Scissors Paper Stone thing; indeed, in that case, you shouldn't bother to uncover the dynamics involved in this game, because it boils down to that, pretty much. The fact that you can mess around with configuring your abilities willl probably not hold any great appeal, since it will probably remain the case that most of the servers are going to have maximum Force points available. I don't much like games where you have to find out what tactic the other person is using, then select the counter for yourself, lather, rinse, repeat; but I don't find JK2 to be that way at all, mostly because I can choose 2 rocks, 1 paper, and a six-pack of scissors on-the-fly when I respawn, then come back and utterly annihilate whomever I choose, more or less. That appeals to me, greatly; especially because there's nothing stopping any clever and skilled player from doing exactly the same thing to me. You're certainly entitled to like or dislike whatever games you want, but it seems to me that most, if not all of your complaints about JK2 multiplayer are groundless. If you just don't like it because "it doesn't feel anything like Star Wars!!", as I think you may have been alluding to earlier... well, that's why I like it, actually. The single player feels like the movies; the multiplayer feels like an altogether more handsome beast. To my mind. You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
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What? (had to be done) WoT?
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I think I might be dead this time tomorrow. But i dunno. I feel real ill. It has been good. Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
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Oops, sorry Warren, I didn't realize you were still relevant. Here, let me Marshall-size post #134: "The man who cannot dance, thinks the band is no good." You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
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Hulka, You, my friend, are the proverbial shit! I bought that Disney book you recommended and was glued to it the last two days. Any other suggestions? Arizona Diamondbacks 2001 World Series Champions
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jafd Oops, sorry Warren, I didn't realize you were still relevant. Here, let me Marshall-size post #134: "The man who cannot dance, thinks the band is no good." Oh unclench, it was a joke. WoT?
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Oh unclench, it was a joke. Oh. Does that mean you are the new joker? You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
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jafd/Warren debates are the new... uh... well, something anyway. shit. I'm no good at this. -chris |
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IWLB Now...if Rune had combos like ONI's... And avoided all of Oni's contrasting shitty issues like crappy control, uninspired level design, and laughably bad voice acting? The problem with combos is they don't play well with ping, as it would seem to be fairly reliant on keeping a pattern based on where your opponent is. What would Jesus warez?
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Bezzy: I have found that using the SP map 'ladder' will greatly increase your understanding and ability with the saber. http://www.jediknight2files.com/sort.files?cat=727&ref=670 You can get it at the above link. Just add it to your base folder and then open the console in game and type 'devmap ladder' to start it. In it you fight 54 Reborn, in groups from 1 to 5. Very handy for tinkering with your saber styles. Side note: I think it uses the level of difficulty from your current SP game, and at the end you will fight a couple of the bosses from the game. So if you haven't finished the SP portion, this could spoil it for you. I'm sure something witty belongs here, but I'm just not up to the task. No wait, I don't care. Yeah, much cooler.
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Alternatively, you can open one of the duel maps in the sp game and spawn your own enemies to your heart's content. eg. \devmap duel_bay \helpusobi 1 \give all \setforceall 3 (or 5, if you want to check out two extra one-handed stances) \g_saberrealisticcombat 1 (gotta have that one) Then when you're all dolled up, with saber in hand: \npc spawn reborn or rebornforceuser rebornacrobat tavion desann You can also spawn luke or some of the generic jedi ai to help you: \npc spawn luke jedi jeditrainer Or spawn lando and some storm troopers: \npc spawn lando \npc spawn stormtrooper You get the idea. Bind the commands to a few keys for easy access. Actually been playing around with this a lot. I find the sp saber fights a lot more satisfying than what mp has to offer. It just feels a lot more cinematic or something. |
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It looks spectacular, but I still think Rune holds the crown for melee's implementation, especially in HOV. Actually I think Die by the Sword had the best system by far. It even worked pretty well considering the ammount of buttons you needed for executing blows. Civilized barcode, quick id.
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Bailey: now, I didn't say anything about those things. Aye, Oni had the shittiest levels known to man, and it was super-ugly, and enemies with projectile weapons sucked — they cheated. But bad controls? Hm.............. I still got more fun out of Oni (but I was mightily fed up with it after half of it) than I got with that crappy excuse for a game called Rune though. Repetitive, boring mêlée weapons and nothing else. Oh yeah, those silly rune powers...gakkkkkk. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Ashiran: DbtS was cooool :p "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Ugh. The implementation of Die by the Sword's swordfighting was one of the bitterest, most annoying, disappointing hyped game features in my gaming life, a bare few degrees better than the Trespasser hand. Nice idea, kudos for trying, but the actual doing of it? Terrible. Slow, clumsy, ugly looking, and wrist spraining. |
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As a game Die by the Sword was indeed crappy. And the controls took a LOT getting used to I agree. The slow and clumsy however only was at the start. If you toyed around with it a lot it would go much smoother and you would start managing chopping of limbs with skill rather then luck. Which was the original intention, eliminate the luck factor in meleefighting and replace it with skill. However you needed VERY much skill and practice to be a l33t fighter that could make every swing go towards the neck (and thus score an instant decapitation kill). I doubt anyone would be capable of doing that but in theory this games system did provide for it. The wrist spraining was another bad thing yes. Thank god I have large hands. :) Civilized barcode, quick id.
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Ta da folks... Off to Kenya now, so see you in 4 months. Keep the place tidy, and try not to mention warez, marketing or quicksaves. -- ex Spatula Man --
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I don't think we discuss the saber in JKII nearly enough. Will warez for food.
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KEnya? WTf are you going to kenya for?!! On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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The saber control in Jk2 is great. Its like any good game. At first your swinging wildly like a fool. And runnning around like a chicken with it's head cut-off. Then gradually you begin to understand the nuances of the control scheme. And slowly but surely you begin to control the swings you make. And when you make them. Another thing... If you don't play the Sp in Jk2 and rush straight for the Mp.. you will harm yourself. Because you won't learn the gradual nuances the sp game teaches you. And you will end up getting beat down so fast and looking some idiot with his head cut-off. I admit first day I got jk2 I played the sp for about 1 hour. then LAunched the Mp to see how it was. Realized I was not ready. WEnt back and Played the sp over the next 8 days. Then began mp again and the difference was night and day. On 2002-04-18 04:47:00 Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me." |
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HoseWater: oooOOo, is that an ipod doing duty as a HD for the DV cam? You do see an iPod, but it's plugged into the PC, not the camera. The camera is MicroMV -- similar to MiniDV, but with a smaller tape size and MPEG2 encoded. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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#149 by Ashiran As a game Die by the Sword was indeed crappy. And the controls took a LOT getting used to I agree. The slow and clumsy however only was at the start. If you toyed around with it a lot it would go much smoother and you would start managing chopping of limbs with skill rather then luck. Which was the original intention, eliminate the luck factor in meleefighting and replace it with skill. However you needed VERY much skill and practice to be a l33t fighter that could make every swing go towards the neck (and thus score an instant decapitation kill). I doubt anyone would be capable of doing that but in theory this games system did provide for it. The wrist spraining was another bad thing yes. Thank god I have large hands. :) I think I was extra impatient with the "replace luck with skill" idea for two reasons. One, it moved much of the gameplay psychologically away from "action-RPG/dungeon crawl", and into "sorta kinda fighting game", and by that gameplay standard, DBtS was a horrible slow unresponsive "fighter". It's sort of like someone deciding to "improve" a scrolling shooter by giving your little ship the control scheme from Falcon, it's certainly more control, but it rarely felt like better control. Plus, because I swordfight some in real life, I think my brain much prefers "fun unrealism" in a swordfight videogame than "clunky, slightly more realism but not really". Which makes me a little sad, because I think it winds up being a case where I thought I wanted something as a gamer, and when I got it, I realized I was wrong, I wanted relatively easy, pretty looking canned animations, not a sort of drunken arm waving about (the sword arm looked terrible). I should try this newfangled saber combat. (Oddly, much as I'm a Star Wars geek, the various Star Wars games rarely interest me, regardless of quality.) |
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Scott, George: about brand diluting, a friend of mine searched the web for covers for JK2 and SOF2 (hey, don't look at me) and he found some for both... except they both had a nice little 3DRealms logo on them instead of Raven logos I dunno if you're aware of this, and it's prolly just a sick warezmoney joke, but I just thought I'd let you know. I like it leng. And I like my leng leu, not chai.
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thanks for people posting links to commands and files I ALREADY TOLD YOU LOT ABOUT THREE THREADS BACK *sigh* and you DO know about the DUEL key? right? in MP you can challenge another player to a duel, then its just you vs them, jump (and lightsaber throw I think) are the ONLY force powers you can use, nobody else can hurt either of you til the duel ends (and no you cant hurt anyone else bar the duelist). as for catching someone whos running away, forward + crouch == forward tumble which closes the distance pretty rapidly if someone swaps to strong stance, pull a fast firing weapon and hammer them, it doesnt block so well and tends to break up their swings one last thing, learn to use the thermal detonators , they are such a nice present to leave someone chasing you and people dont tend to see them / use force push on them very much. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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IWLB Oh yeah, those silly rune powers...gakkkkkk. Bloodlust is love. Darkseid one last thing, learn to use the thermal detonators , they are such a nice present to leave someone chasing you and people dont tend to see them / use force push on them very much. What, are you kidding? That distinctive "tink, tink, tink, bebebebebBEEBEE!" noise is impossible to miss. When being chased, I find it far better to run backwards using the thermals' alt-fire. People will usually take three to the face before they figure out they shouldn't be so kill-greedy. What would Jesus warez?
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>>> Is There Anything Left To Uncover? No. We've seen at all. The proof is in the pudding. "A game should not be judged only on its appearance. It should be played before drawing conclusions." - Miyamoto
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Scott- Then how will your game be different (not a flame, just a question)? Can you be specific without being specific? :) Arizona Diamondbacks 2001 World Series Champions
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