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Retrogaming - Preserving the past or eating companies' profits?
April 8th 2002, 04:09 CEST by DougS Two weeks ago MAME.DK got the hammer dropped on it by an "unidentified developer" ordering the Archivers to pull their ROMs from the site. MAME.DK not only pulled that company's ROMs but all ROMs on the site, leaving the once great site as now strictly a reference site for old games. While there were other sites on the web for getting ROMs (not to mention the newsgroups where ROM trading was constantly happening), MAME.DK stood head and shoulders above the rest. It was well researched, well organized, had the bandwidth to handle the flood of users that would descend upon it every time a new version of the MAME emulator was released, and clearly was a work of love by the site's owners. So of course if you're going to try and make some inroads on stomping out Retrogaming, it was the logical place to start. Retrogaming had been once a fringe scene made up of a loosely knit group of obsessed fans who wanted to bring hard to find old coin operated video games back to life on the PC. But now it's being legitimized by companies like Microsoft and others coming out with PC versions of certain classic games like Batllezone and others. Even companies like Lucas Arts came out with "retro packs" of their old graphic adventure games. But these newer (non-Lucas Arts) versions are not straight ports of the original code as is the case of "emulated" ROMs, where the code is copied off the chips of coin-op games and then emulated to work on the PC. You play Microsoft's Battlezone and any old timer can instantly see that it's not the same as playing the Coin-Op version, though it is close. From a legal point of view the ROM dumpers are breaking the law, despite their claims of "fair use". MAME.DK tried to make it look official by saying "You have to own a version of the coin op machine and by clicking Agree you admit that you won't sell the ROM and it is for educational purposes only..yadda, yadda, yadda..." Sound a lot like the B.S. you find on Warez boards doesn't it? From a copyright point of view, the ROM dumpers are (mostly) doing this without the original author's or companies' blessing. In some limited cases permission was given by the rights holder as long as nobody tried to make money off the ROMs. Further complicating matters is some of the oldest games (pre 1984) came from companies that no longer exist so it's not exactly known who owns the rights. But from a gamer's point of view a lot of these ROMs come from games you just can't find anymore and in the day and age of FPS and coin-op karate games, who thinks they'll make money off of re-releasing an old black and white 320x240 version of Boot Hill? Or Sea-Wolf? Even "newer" games like Major Havok or Cyberball would have a limited market for profits due to their low graphics. I myself am a child of the old coin-op era. I stopped playing coin-op around 1989 because the scene was stagnant with Mortal Kombat clones. Even in this day and age most of the coin op games I see have nicer graphics but have no originality whatsoever. Sounds a lot like the state of FPS these days, lots of graphic/performance improvements but no creativity or imagination taking the scene in new directions. So when I found out about MAME.DK I was estatic because I could play games that I haven't played or seen in over 17 years. Who cares about a game made in 1980 these days anyways when we've got EverCrap and AnarchyOnline and Ultima whatever? Apparently some bean counter does otherwise MAME.DK would still be up and running. Some argued that MAME.DKs downfall was all but sealed when emulation started occuring for games made after 1990. Worse, games that never got past the dev/tryout stage started appearing emulated. There was a huge fight over the fact that some guy had assembled from spare parts a version of Atari's unreleased Marble Madness 2 and wouldn't let anyone emulate it. Who's right? Who's wrong? Do you care? |
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Topic: Retrogaming - Preserving the past or eating companies' profits?
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Permit me to congratulate all of Planetcrap users for the complete absence of "first psot" slapstick, as well as probably the most interesting, on-topic discussion since Thomas A. Edison sent the first e-mail in pleistocene, at the dawn of the Internet. ~zugly. - skazal Rzhevskij i razmazal govno po bil'jardnomu stolu. ...
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re: CDbaby. Great, great site. I try to pimp them as much as I possibly can. Even had em mentioned on CNet radio a few times. Still waiting for a check, however. As much as I love their concept, I think they really enjoy their jobs. If you've seen their reciepts, then you probably know what I'm talking about. Bailey: Don't let that stop you. Search for a few bands in the genres you're into, then go to the band's website, see if they have samples in other formats. I took a chance on em a while back and got a few CDs. Two Alpha Conspiracy (cypher and vs Low Technicians), CTRL, and Kusser. Its all good stuff. You're the new nazis.
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EvilAsh - MP3.com is still another big-business, VC-funded hype fest. CDBaby's run by six people in OR, and as Duality mentioned, it's very obvious from their receipts, web presence, and other materials that they are cool people who really love independent music, and aren't just trying to make a quick buck off of it. I'm sure the same can be said for many at MP3.com, but I'm all for supporting small business, so when I can, I buy from CDBaby. Oh, and Bailey, I agree about RealAudio samples being useless... but Duality's point is good: Many of the artists offer MP3s on their homepages. -chris |
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Duality Too late! I gave it all up in one fleeting moment of could've beens and should've dones! Besides, I'm still economically strapped at the moment, so no buying CDs regardless of how many pots of MacnCheese it buys these fine young artists. As I said though, I think it's a great idea, I'd much rather have a system like this pulling a david vs goliath on the recording industry than a P2P system. This way the artists win rather than the chubby-pawed, grubby consumers. Well, if the recording industry dies, I guess we all win, but you know what I mean. I am laughing at the horror of being alive.
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#52 by deadlock I think my idea could work brilliantly for something like Palm or a WindowsCE device, once they become powerful enough - which they inevitably will. Think about it - travelling to work on the bus ? Start up your Palm and have a quick game of Street Fighter 1. Sitting at a street cabinet at three in the morning waiting for the NMC to ring you back ? Launch your arcade emulator and have a go of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I'm not expecting people to download the ROMS and play them night and day the way they would the latest greatest FPS, but they would be perfect for just dipping into and having a quick blast. Definitely -- in fact there are quite a few emulators out for the Pocket PC (I use MAMECE on my Casio e-200). If a company, like Activision for instance, offered the ability to download MAME compatible ROMs from their website for a couple bucks a pop, I'd definitely do it. I have TONS of Atari carts sitting in a box with a broken atari 7800 and 2600 beside them. I'd love to play those games while sitting in between classes or meetings, etc. I guess I should be happy that I have most of my carts in ROM format now <much thanks to MAME.DK>. Maybe someday your idea will come to light :) ... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
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Nathan, 19: ...We're glad you have pleasant memories with said product, but go fuck yourself because the law is on our side." first off, to be fair, my "statement", such as it was, is hy-per-bo-le. If I really loved Street Fighter 1, and I was really into Street Fighter 1 at arcades, and I wanted to play Street Fighter 1 again, I'm basically out of luck. no, you're not. you're out of luck if you expect it to be easy or convenient, and you're out of luck if you expect this easy-ness and convenience to be not illegal. street fighter arcade machines are not extinct. they can be difficult to find, but they have not completely vanished from the face of the planet. in fact... yeah, it's II, not I, but the fact that there are two (three if you count the PCB one) available right now means with a little effort, it wouldn't be impossible to locate one. so, be clear. "I'm out of luck" means "I'm out of luck because I don't want to do it the way I'm supposed to." or "I'm out of luck because I can't do it the way that's most convenient for me." do you complain when you have to get off your ass and go to the grocery store to buy food, too? why not just go to your next-door neighbor's house and raid their fridge? that's much more convenient, and, as a bonus, it's free! 1) people who would like access to works that were meaningful to them are just out of luck this point has zero weight. if you would like to do something, do it the right way, or do not do it at all. your desires do not outweigh the law simply because they are your desires, and because "they don't hurt anyone!!!1!1!" (which really isn't your call to make), and because it's more convenient for you to steal something rather than do what you know is right. i grow very weary of this argument. "I WANT WHAT I WANT AND THERE'S JUST NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT!!11" wrong. there are plenty of ways. they're just not convenient for you. I have a really hard time shaking the feeling that downloading arcade ROMS from my childhood has about as much moral significance as going 85 mph in a 75 mph zone. It sure is illegal. you wanna play the moral relativism card, be my guest. i have a really hard time shaking the feeling that killing people i don't like has about as much moral significance as going 70 in a 65. but it sure is illegal. that must mean, since i personally don't think it's morally significant, that it's a-okay for me to do, right? Gunp01nt: Do you actually think most people downloading roms are warez kiddies that think MOH isn't interesting? y'know, usually you're full of shit, and this time isn't an exception. show me any demographic survey ever taken on people downloading roms. just one. what? there aren't any? gee. so his guess is as good as yours. well, better, because he's not an idiot. if i had to guess, i'd guess most people downloading roms are kiddies that collect 'em like they do warez stuff, but they may not necessarily be warez kiddies per se. let's face it--most mainstream adults have problems from time to time with fucking installshield.... MAME might as well be astrophysics. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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mmmm mac n cheese. I miss mac n cheese. And I mean the real stuff. Like Kraft. None of this microwavable non-cheese cheese crap. Oh how toiling the world of low fat food is! *sob* You're the new nazis.
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oh, yeah, and just so we're clear: i agree that older games and that "heritage" should be preserved somehow. i simply disagree that stealing it is that way. thank you. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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No one cares, but I don't have a nostalgia chip installed in my head. Pretty nice actually. Nostalgia is evil and hampers creativity, plus one's consistency in good taste. "It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
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I have downloaded ROMS for NES and Super NES. All of them were games I used to own. I wanted to see them again, so I did. Sue me. This isn't the 0-day warez scene folks. I am not ripping off Konami, Capcom or Nintendo. They already saw plenty of money from me back in the day when those games were $40 and $50 dollars. If I was downloading Gamecube roms it would be different. If you choose to not acknowledge the difference between 0-day warez, and a 15 year old rom then that is your choice. "I'm willing to bet people download a LOT more roms besides ones they used to own." And if they do, so what? I mean really. Is Activision losing money because someone wants to check out Double Dragon 15 years after it was released? Hell no. And if the company does decide to release the game as a retro pack, then guess what... The same people that own the ROMS and are such horrible pirates are most likely to be the same people that go out and buy these retro packs. I guess I better tell my friend to erase all his Star Trek episodes on VHS tape. Paramount is sure to lose a bundle off that deal. |
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And if the company does decide to release the game as a retro pack, then guess what... The same people that own the ROMS and are such horrible pirates are most likely to be the same people that go out and buy these retro packs. This isn't an obvious fact to me, and I don't see how you can know this without any statistics to back it up. If I own a working ROM of a game and I can get it for free, why on earth would I pay for a rerelease of the game? "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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Duality in #70 I think post #0 said it best that MAME.DK (and a lot of emulation in general) took a major spank in the ass when they started copying games that were made after 1990, or were games that were relatively easy to obtain (until not too long ago, it wasn't hard at all to find an N64 and Zelda64 at retail). I think that Emulation in general is the core of the problem here, not the actual distribution of previously copyrighted material. You make a great point, but I can't help but wonder what will happen in the near future when DOS is completely a thing of the past. I'd hate to know that my copy of Wolfenstein or Quake1 is useless once MS completely removes any native DOS support from it OS's( or it just wont work due to architectural changes). But, like all of my other consoles, I guess I'll have to be content to maintain an older system just to be able to play these games should the urge strike....? So far emulation hasnt concerned me, as I own a lot of older systems, and the games that I enjoyed on each platform are still in my possession/ownership. PC games rely on OS specific enviroments, and are sold as such at retail(just like the console titles of old). Some are released with the ability to install to either(MAC or IBM) with the liscense allowing installation to either, but not BOTH at the same time(even if you happen to own both). I know a guy who has ported Quake2 over to the Amiga, along with plans to include many of the Mods for it. Is he doing something illegal since Quake2 was never officially released for this platform? Is there a distinction between simply emulating something rather than porting it over to an older(or newer for that matter) system or Operating System? Or is emulation the catch-all in generic terminology? ...on the outside looking in, banned by an epiphany at an EB store....
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crash: just one. what? there aren't any? gee. so his guess is as good as yours. well, better, because he's not an idiot. demographics are for people who have their sense of logic turned off. Even though you don't have the mental capacity to discuss matters in a decent way (that is: without calling other people names and stuff) you might still be able to understand that there's no demographic needed for this. if you just try and imagine what kind of people will download ROMS then it might all make sense to you. most mainstream adults have problems from time to time with fucking installshield.... MAME might as well be astrophysics. fortunately, those people who bought the ROM games back in the day, are perfectly able to operate a computer. Really crash, what makes you think you can call me an idiot and then come up with a load of crap yourself? what makes you think you're more of an expert than me? I'd like to know. "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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Mank, What do you say to a project like Exult? They are the ones rewriting Ultima 7 so that it doesn't require DOS to play. In fact, it is playable under just about every operating system that is in use today (Win32, Linux, MacOS/OS X, BeOS, xBSD ...). However, the only thing you get with downloading Exult is the executable (to simplify it). All the game files are provided by you. Is that illegal for Exult to do? They aren't providing any game files, just an ability to play the game using legitimately (or illegitimately) obtained game files. Greg
-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having! |
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Just because a company is successful doesn't mean its a bad idea to support them. Jeesus christ. Mp3.com offers alot more for the artist then Crybaby does. Mp3.com is very good. And I Am sorry they do a very nice job of supporting artists. Better then that site. And as far as Big business they still give 50% profit. So its not like they are ripping off the Artist. and As an artist.. you would like to be able to get to as many people as possible. Crybaby is a nice idea that was started too late. As I said Mp3.com started this well before crybaby did. And they have fleshed it out a whole lot better. I like to support small-time business as much as the next person but some companies are worth it and some really make no sense. |
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"If I own a working ROM of a game and I can get it for free, why on earth would I pay for a rerelease of the game?" Because emulation is never pefect. Have you checked out any emulators? I have yet to find one that emulates games perfectly. Sure they come close, but there is always a problem or bug that crops up sooner or later. You also can't plug the computer into the TV and sit on your couch with a buddy and play 2 player games with real NES controllers. I'm sure there are people out there that do get every ROM they can find and will never buy the original copies. So what? How many of them could there possibly be? When was the last time you overheard a stranger bragging about how many Sega Genesis ROMS they had downloaded? |
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If you choose to not acknowledge the difference between 0-day warez, and a 15 year old rom then that is your choice. The similarities I'm speaking of are not those of the content, but of the end users. I'm sure there are a lot of people who download / play ROMs without even thinking of purchasing the game beforehand or after the fact. Just like there are a lot of people who download warez without even thinking of purchasing the game beforehand or after the fact. crash did an excellent job proving the point that things that are wanted can still be had, if not in the most convenient manner in which we want them. The SF2 coin-op was a superlative example. I just said superlative ... I feel like jafd. :D You're the new nazis.
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Greg in #84 They aren't providing any game files, just an ability to play the game using legitimately (or illegitimately) obtained game files. I understand, and I'm at odds with the same issue from a gamers perspective. But from what I've experienced up till now regarding retail sales, a game is released on whatever platform the creator and publishers agree on before the game is released. If DOS was not in the list of supported operating systems then it becomes a gray area for me personally. Now, if the publisher and developer are still in existence, then it becomes a matter of whether or not they give thier blessing in this venture, because it cannot help but create more sales, even if the game is in the bargain bin. And in this case, both sides win. ...on the outside looking in, banned by an epiphany at an EB store....
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you know, it may seem black and white, but the whole thing, hell, warez in general is shady to me. Sure, you can tape shows, and watch them years later - even after Paramount releases the show on DVD. It isn't a crime per se, but Paramount isn't making money off of your betamax tape. ROMs sorta fall out like that - and be fair, some companies allow for emulation. Vectrex is a perfect point - it is both legal and acceptable to download vetrex roms. Of course, the copyright holders gave the permissions to do so. some are middle ground, like the intellivision group. They enjoyed the fact that folks were downloading the roms, but released an emulator and roms for a small fee. I dunno their position on roms now. Roms in those cases I really have no problems with. It's like trading books that are out of print, though I will admit that fact that where there was one rom, there is now two, is the fuzzy point in my logic there. I dunno. I think of Libraries, and of rentals, and I start to wonder if there isn't a happy middle ground to the whole warez scene that would appeal to most of the downloaders today, but I can't for the life of me think of it. But, and this is just a thought, not a position, If you download a movie - say Josie and the Pussy Cats - who are you stealing from? The movie company, or blockbuster? Both? If you never intended to buy it, can it be considered rental theft? Is it theft too when you record that same movie on HBO? I mean, the whole thing gets confusing, and I think a lot of downloaders really dont' think what they are doing is wrong because of it. Will warez for food.
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crash i have a really hard time shaking the feeling that killing people i don't like has about as much moral significance as going 70 in a 65. but it sure is illegal. that must mean, since i personally don't think it's morally significant, that it's a-okay for me to do, right? Well, you'll get ticketed for either, right? I am laughing at the horror of being alive.
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I think MAME.dk got into trouble because the ROMs that they were distributing were getting more and more recent. One of the last games to be added to that site was Marvel vs. Capcom...which had a copyright of 2000 and can still be found in arcades. MAME.dk was ignored until they started putting up pretty new arcade games. That being said...I have 2000 of these ROMs and they are still a blast. I hook up my X-Arcade joystick and let guests go nuts playing all of the old games that they remember from their youth. Old arcade games are usually the only games that my relatives love to play when they are over...the gameplay is simple and anyone can pick it up in a couple of minutes. "Good health" is merely the slowest rate at which one can die.
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Gunp01nt: demographics are for people who have their sense of logic turned off. or for people that like, y'know, those annoying little things called "facts". perhaps you've heard of them? it's clear you're not familiar with them. if you just try and imagine what kind of people will download ROMS then it might all make sense to you. right. we call those "guesses". which is, in fact, what i called mine. Really crash, what makes you think you can call me an idiot and then come up with a load of crap yourself? what makes you think you're more of an expert than me? I'd like to know. i don't make guesses and present them as facts, and then justify it by saying "if you just try and imagine, it'll all magically come true in Gunp01nt's Land of Make Believe™." this is why i call you "idiot". in case you're wondering, which it appears you are, because you did indeed ask. see, the thing is, i'm not trying to present myself as an expert--you are, with your "facts" and the assumption i was doing the same thing you are. which i'm not. so we're clear. carry on. kthxbye Bailey: Well, you'll get ticketed for either, right? haven't yet. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Caryn Law: how's chris going to prove that he wrote the novel first without some kind of copyright time stamp on it? A bit of foresight: Chris would send a copy to himself in the post, marking the envelope clearly so that he knows what it is, but never actually open it. He could take a second copy to a bank and place it in a safety deposit box (I have no idea how much that costs). The bank would keep a record of when the box was first/last opened. Nova-Z: I'm not saying you're stupid and I did point out that I was writing from an Irish perspective. All I'm saying is that speed limits are not random numbers - they are imposed for a reason. Incidentally, since roadspeeds in Ireland (and the UK) are usually given in miles/hour, it wasn't until I was driving home that I realised that you are talking through your hole if you think that driving at 95mph (150km/h) is 'optimally' safe. At that speed, you have no fucking chance, regardless of the conditions - weatherwise or otherwise. Martin Davies: Out of interest: in Britain, at any rate, you can get away with driving up to 10mph above the speed limit in most areas. Is this true elsewhere? I suspect that it's the same in the UK as it is in Ireland - you don't 'get away' with driving 10mph over the limit. You're given 10% (ie, 33mph in a 30mph zone, 44 in a 40 etc.), but this is to take into account the inherent inaccuracy of the instrumentation in your car. The needle may be at 40, but you may actually be doing slightly more or slightly less. I mean, hey, Ayrton Senna was a far better driver than you'll ever be :P I'm not sure about the autobahn thing, but motorways/autobahns are safer to drive on than smaller roads, in theory anyway, because all of the traffic around you is travelling in the same direction as you. I say in theory because accidents do happen (wasn't there a 100 car pile-up on a motorway in Britain last week ?). Gunpo1nt: The people that download the roms most likely already bought the game back then and now seek to relive the experience on their PC. Do people buy a lot of arcade machines in the netherlands then, gunpo1nt ? Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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deadlock: I mean, hey, Ayrton Senna was a far better driver than you'll ever be :P I blame the night nurse. That comment was supposed to be in the previous, Nova Z intended, paragraph. Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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crash: i don't make guesses and present them as facts Right. You make guesses, present them as guesses, but claim your guess is better than anyone else's or for people that like, y'know, those annoying little things called "facts". perhaps you've heard of them? it's clear you're not familiar with them. the complete absence of demographics in this case makes it easy for you to say I'm wrong, since I can't provide statistical proof. But that means there is no proof of any other guess being right as well so how come you know I'm wrong? how about you provide statistics to prove I'm wrong? naah, instead you call me an idiot because that's a lot easier to do. But let me tell you, that behavior makes you look more like a troll than a sensible person. "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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deadlock: Do people buy a lot of arcade machines in the netherlands then, gunpo1nt ? Some do, but I wasn't specifically talking about arcade machine games. A lot of downloadable ROMs are from games for NES, Master System, Amiga, Atari, Commodore 64 and all those old consoles. People will download those if only to avoid the hassle of getting their old 1980's box set up and working. But if they bought the games back then, aren't they basically entitled to aqcuire another copy? "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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deadlock: A bit of foresight: Chris would send a copy to himself in the post, marking the envelope clearly so that he knows what it is, but never actually open it. Believe it or not, I've read somewhere that this is NOT legal proof of copyright and won't hold up in court. I wish I could find where I read this but it was a year or so ago. I was researching the issue of copyright because the discussion came up on an writers email list I belong to -- the talk centered around authors who publish a lot of their stuff on the net (like me) and how many of these authors have had their work stolen and passed off by someone else as their own (I haven't had that happen to me, but I've known authors who have and seen it happen). I seem to recall this information being pretty legit (that it won't work when enforcing copyright), but damned if I can recall where I heard it. There is another way: pay $20 for some kind of certificate that actually states you hold the copyright on something. Again, I can't remember where you do this (sorry, posting while working so I'm not hunting down links), but it's possible. "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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BTW. I'm not only talking about ROM downloads from MAME.dk (they are all arcade) but about general ROM downloads (if it's illegal for MAME.dk to share roms, it's illegal for anyone) as on FreeROMs "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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#54 by Nova Z First, I'm not stupid. Not suggesting you are. However, other people definitely are. Someone swerves into your path while you're going 150kmph or more, it'll hurt a lot more than if you were going 50 less. Sure it'll be their fault, but that's small comfort when you're paralyzed on a hospital bed. Plus, as someone else mentioned, smarter drivers have to stick to the rules so the less competant will as well. There are way worse road habits than speeding. Naturally. But that doesn't justify it. However, I think you fail to grasp what Canadian highways are like. Hogwash. I live 2 seconds away from one. I still hold to my opinion that if you need to go 150, you're in too much of a rush. And drivers in a rush are problems. #61 by Martin Davies Out of interest: in Britain, at any rate, you can get away with driving up to 10mph above the speed limit in most areas. Is this true elsewhere? Over here in Canada, on a 100kmph highway you can generally go 110kmph without any trouble. Its when you start hitting 120 or more that you'll get pulled over. "Dream of me... and maybe, just maybe, this nightmare will end."
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But let me tell you, that behavior makes you look more like a troll than a sensible person. coming from you, this is actually a compliment. but you won't see that, of course, which makes it funnier. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Driving above the speed limit is evil. Seriously. It's a proven statistical fact that you are more likely to have a crash and more likely to be injured or injure someone, the faster you are driving. Anyone who puts their convenience over their own lives or anyone else's lives is evil. Also on topic, I'm downloading MAME and a bunch of ROMs from the donkey now. So there. But it's not wrong. I downloaded the program and the entire collection of MAME.DK ROMs just a few months ago, but then lost it all in a hard drive crash. Downloading it then was wrong, now it's just restoring from a system failure. ;) |
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Gunpoint Do you actually think most people downloading roms are warez kiddies that think MOH isn't interesting? I see your point. It's impossible to like MOH -and- old games at the same time. Downloading old roms negates the possibility of downloading new games ... I should have remembered that, sorry. my, us two certainly are a funny bunch! No, I'm funny. You're just stupid. EvilAsh I have no clue. Perfect. Evilive And if they do, so what? I mean really. Is Activision losing money because someone wants to check out Double Dragon 15 years after it was released? Hell no. And if the company does decide to release the game as a retro pack, then guess what... The same people that own the ROMS and are such horrible pirates are most likely to be the same people that go out and buy these retro packs. It's not about losing money, it's about copyrights and intellectual property. If you can't understand that, just sit quietly in the corner until the adults are done talking. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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Bob Anyone who puts their convenience over their own lives or anyone else's lives is evil. Where does the Baileytron fit into this equation? I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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but they have not completely vanished from the face of the planet. in fact... yeah, it's II, not I, but the fact that there are two (three if you count the PCB one) available right now means with a little effort, it wouldn't be impossible to locate one. I'm not really debating the actual point, but setting the availability of Street Fighter 2 equal to Street Fighter 1 is BIG stretch. Street Fighter 1 was a niche game made in '88 that wasn't very popular, and wasn't to easy to find back then, when it first came out. Street Fighter 2 was probably the most widely distributed arcade game ever, that single-handedly revived the arcade industry...you could find it in supermarkets and pizza places and laundromats that never even had an arcade machine before, not to mention every arcade in the world that wanted to make any money, it was probably the most popular arcade game ever. I think it'd be orders of magnitude easier to find left over Street Fighter 2 boards, then it would be to find Street Fighter 1 machines. "God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900 |
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Out of interest: in Britain, at any rate, you can get away with driving up to 10mph above the speed limit in most areas. Is this true elsewhere? In the areas I've lived in the US, that's pretty much the case. 10-15ish is about as far as it's reasonable to push it. I think once you're 20 miles above it starts becoming an actual offense rather than a misdemeaner, also. Which can mean some heavily penalties if you get caught. |
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Damnit, "is a big stretch" and "wasn't too easy". "God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900 |
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crash, 76: ...? I specifically chose Street Fighter _1_ as my example because it was a game I thought was cool when I was 10 and because, unlike Street Fighter 2, it's hard to get a hold of. Disproving me by showing me that it's possible (though costly) to get a hold of a different game doesn't really seem like disproving my point. Of course it's much easier to get Street Fighter 2; it was a vastly more successful and popular game. I believe one of the "Capcom Generations" packages provides arcade perfect emulation of several versions of it for the playstation and possibly the saturn, in fact, for much cheaper than a standup machine. So what? That's not my point at all. I picked Street Fighter 1, but I could have just as easily picked any number of other obscure games that are impossible to find. I'm sorry if this is a topic that makes you really angry, but I have an extremely difficult time seeing how what I said warranted the vitriol and condescension of your reply... Nathan |
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Nathan: i just grow weary of people continually justifying theft, even with the best of intentions. and it is theft. the rest of the topic is justification and rationalization of theft. it brings to mind the early napster days: "It's not STEALING, it's SHARING!" yeah. how much is napster paying again? ten billion dollars? seems like a lot of cost for sharing, don'tcha think? it's theft. justify it however you want, spin it however you want, rationalize it however you want. complain that it's difficult to get the older games. state with authority that this is the way the developers would have wanted it. note that it's not hurting anyone. note that you wouldn't have bought it anyway. whatever. it's theft. that's all. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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So what? That's not my point at all. I picked Street Fighter 1, but I could have just as easily picked any number of other obscure games that are impossible to find. Hard but not impossible. This place clames to have all models of Street Fighter. There are also nice little list like this one that list arcade machine dealers (as well as any other coin-op equipment), that someone searching for old games would find vastly usefull. |
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I find it cute that some of my friends who bitch at piracy have unregistered winzip after the 30 day limit. They are breaking the law too they should die. |
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Regardless of how hard it is to find, crash's point still stands: it being inconvenient for you to play or find doesn't give someone the right to distribute it without the copyright owner's permission. It's unfortunate that that's the case when it probably IS true that it's not going to make a dent in the copyright owner's wallet if you download a copy, but that doesn't matter. Copyright owners must enforce their copyright in order to retain it, and if that means not allowing you to download a ROM of Street Fighter 1 even if it's too difficult for you to obtain legally, then so be it. Convenience doesn't override what's legal or right, and I know I sound like a fanatic when I say this, but I believe it's morally right for any creator, be it an individual or a company, to enforce their rights to decide what happens to their own creative work. You can't pick and choose who has this right. "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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Every time you attempt to insult me Warren ,the attempts get worse. Let me guess in grammar school you got picked on alot. |
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There's a pretty big difference in perspective on this issue between people that create things that fall under copyright protection and people that just want free stuff. |
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what about those of us that create things that fall under copyright AND want free stuff? what are we to do?!? -chris |
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You can warez without persecution or retribution, chris. It is your reward for contributing to society. Have you contributed to society? You're the new nazis.
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Let me guess in grammar school you got picked on alot. Now, let me guess; in grammar school, you huffed glue? You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
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he struck me as being more of the "eating paint chips" variety. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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On the subject of music, if you guys ever get the chance to see Tenacious D in concert, and you like them even the tiniest little bit, then get your ass out there and rock your socks off. I went to the B'ham show on the 7th and I was amazed at the amount of energy Jack Black has. Extremely talented and as close to a living cartoon character as you will ever witness. How can you not love a band who sings the Star Trek original series theme, including lyrics? The band that opened for them "Greasepaint" was amazing as well, definitely appropriately twisted. --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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Let me guess JAfd you wore a paper bag over your head cause you wanted to be incognito. |
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Let me guess JAfd you wore a paper bag over your head cause you wanted to be incognito. EXCELENT FUNNAY! |
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Topic: Retrogaming - Preserving the past or eating companies' profits?
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