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Retrogaming - Preserving the past or eating companies' profits?
April 8th 2002, 04:09 CEST by DougS Two weeks ago MAME.DK got the hammer dropped on it by an "unidentified developer" ordering the Archivers to pull their ROMs from the site. MAME.DK not only pulled that company's ROMs but all ROMs on the site, leaving the once great site as now strictly a reference site for old games. While there were other sites on the web for getting ROMs (not to mention the newsgroups where ROM trading was constantly happening), MAME.DK stood head and shoulders above the rest. It was well researched, well organized, had the bandwidth to handle the flood of users that would descend upon it every time a new version of the MAME emulator was released, and clearly was a work of love by the site's owners. So of course if you're going to try and make some inroads on stomping out Retrogaming, it was the logical place to start. Retrogaming had been once a fringe scene made up of a loosely knit group of obsessed fans who wanted to bring hard to find old coin operated video games back to life on the PC. But now it's being legitimized by companies like Microsoft and others coming out with PC versions of certain classic games like Batllezone and others. Even companies like Lucas Arts came out with "retro packs" of their old graphic adventure games. But these newer (non-Lucas Arts) versions are not straight ports of the original code as is the case of "emulated" ROMs, where the code is copied off the chips of coin-op games and then emulated to work on the PC. You play Microsoft's Battlezone and any old timer can instantly see that it's not the same as playing the Coin-Op version, though it is close. From a legal point of view the ROM dumpers are breaking the law, despite their claims of "fair use". MAME.DK tried to make it look official by saying "You have to own a version of the coin op machine and by clicking Agree you admit that you won't sell the ROM and it is for educational purposes only..yadda, yadda, yadda..." Sound a lot like the B.S. you find on Warez boards doesn't it? From a copyright point of view, the ROM dumpers are (mostly) doing this without the original author's or companies' blessing. In some limited cases permission was given by the rights holder as long as nobody tried to make money off the ROMs. Further complicating matters is some of the oldest games (pre 1984) came from companies that no longer exist so it's not exactly known who owns the rights. But from a gamer's point of view a lot of these ROMs come from games you just can't find anymore and in the day and age of FPS and coin-op karate games, who thinks they'll make money off of re-releasing an old black and white 320x240 version of Boot Hill? Or Sea-Wolf? Even "newer" games like Major Havok or Cyberball would have a limited market for profits due to their low graphics. I myself am a child of the old coin-op era. I stopped playing coin-op around 1989 because the scene was stagnant with Mortal Kombat clones. Even in this day and age most of the coin op games I see have nicer graphics but have no originality whatsoever. Sounds a lot like the state of FPS these days, lots of graphic/performance improvements but no creativity or imagination taking the scene in new directions. So when I found out about MAME.DK I was estatic because I could play games that I haven't played or seen in over 17 years. Who cares about a game made in 1980 these days anyways when we've got EverCrap and AnarchyOnline and Ultima whatever? Apparently some bean counter does otherwise MAME.DK would still be up and running. Some argued that MAME.DKs downfall was all but sealed when emulation started occuring for games made after 1990. Worse, games that never got past the dev/tryout stage started appearing emulated. There was a huge fight over the fact that some guy had assembled from spare parts a version of Atari's unreleased Marble Madness 2 and wouldn't let anyone emulate it. Who's right? Who's wrong? Do you care? |
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Topic: Retrogaming - Preserving the past or eating companies' profits?
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but they have not completely vanished from the face of the planet. in fact... yeah, it's II, not I, but the fact that there are two (three if you count the PCB one) available right now means with a little effort, it wouldn't be impossible to locate one. I'm not really debating the actual point, but setting the availability of Street Fighter 2 equal to Street Fighter 1 is BIG stretch. Street Fighter 1 was a niche game made in '88 that wasn't very popular, and wasn't to easy to find back then, when it first came out. Street Fighter 2 was probably the most widely distributed arcade game ever, that single-handedly revived the arcade industry...you could find it in supermarkets and pizza places and laundromats that never even had an arcade machine before, not to mention every arcade in the world that wanted to make any money, it was probably the most popular arcade game ever. I think it'd be orders of magnitude easier to find left over Street Fighter 2 boards, then it would be to find Street Fighter 1 machines. "God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900 |
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Out of interest: in Britain, at any rate, you can get away with driving up to 10mph above the speed limit in most areas. Is this true elsewhere? In the areas I've lived in the US, that's pretty much the case. 10-15ish is about as far as it's reasonable to push it. I think once you're 20 miles above it starts becoming an actual offense rather than a misdemeaner, also. Which can mean some heavily penalties if you get caught. |
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Damnit, "is a big stretch" and "wasn't too easy". "God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900 |
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crash, 76: ...? I specifically chose Street Fighter _1_ as my example because it was a game I thought was cool when I was 10 and because, unlike Street Fighter 2, it's hard to get a hold of. Disproving me by showing me that it's possible (though costly) to get a hold of a different game doesn't really seem like disproving my point. Of course it's much easier to get Street Fighter 2; it was a vastly more successful and popular game. I believe one of the "Capcom Generations" packages provides arcade perfect emulation of several versions of it for the playstation and possibly the saturn, in fact, for much cheaper than a standup machine. So what? That's not my point at all. I picked Street Fighter 1, but I could have just as easily picked any number of other obscure games that are impossible to find. I'm sorry if this is a topic that makes you really angry, but I have an extremely difficult time seeing how what I said warranted the vitriol and condescension of your reply... Nathan |
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Nathan: i just grow weary of people continually justifying theft, even with the best of intentions. and it is theft. the rest of the topic is justification and rationalization of theft. it brings to mind the early napster days: "It's not STEALING, it's SHARING!" yeah. how much is napster paying again? ten billion dollars? seems like a lot of cost for sharing, don'tcha think? it's theft. justify it however you want, spin it however you want, rationalize it however you want. complain that it's difficult to get the older games. state with authority that this is the way the developers would have wanted it. note that it's not hurting anyone. note that you wouldn't have bought it anyway. whatever. it's theft. that's all. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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So what? That's not my point at all. I picked Street Fighter 1, but I could have just as easily picked any number of other obscure games that are impossible to find. Hard but not impossible. This place clames to have all models of Street Fighter. There are also nice little list like this one that list arcade machine dealers (as well as any other coin-op equipment), that someone searching for old games would find vastly usefull. |
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I find it cute that some of my friends who bitch at piracy have unregistered winzip after the 30 day limit. They are breaking the law too they should die. |
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Regardless of how hard it is to find, crash's point still stands: it being inconvenient for you to play or find doesn't give someone the right to distribute it without the copyright owner's permission. It's unfortunate that that's the case when it probably IS true that it's not going to make a dent in the copyright owner's wallet if you download a copy, but that doesn't matter. Copyright owners must enforce their copyright in order to retain it, and if that means not allowing you to download a ROM of Street Fighter 1 even if it's too difficult for you to obtain legally, then so be it. Convenience doesn't override what's legal or right, and I know I sound like a fanatic when I say this, but I believe it's morally right for any creator, be it an individual or a company, to enforce their rights to decide what happens to their own creative work. You can't pick and choose who has this right. "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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Every time you attempt to insult me Warren ,the attempts get worse. Let me guess in grammar school you got picked on alot. |
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There's a pretty big difference in perspective on this issue between people that create things that fall under copyright protection and people that just want free stuff. |
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what about those of us that create things that fall under copyright AND want free stuff? what are we to do?!? -chris |
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You can warez without persecution or retribution, chris. It is your reward for contributing to society. Have you contributed to society? You're the new nazis.
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Let me guess in grammar school you got picked on alot. Now, let me guess; in grammar school, you huffed glue? You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
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he struck me as being more of the "eating paint chips" variety. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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On the subject of music, if you guys ever get the chance to see Tenacious D in concert, and you like them even the tiniest little bit, then get your ass out there and rock your socks off. I went to the B'ham show on the 7th and I was amazed at the amount of energy Jack Black has. Extremely talented and as close to a living cartoon character as you will ever witness. How can you not love a band who sings the Star Trek original series theme, including lyrics? The band that opened for them "Greasepaint" was amazing as well, definitely appropriately twisted. --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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Let me guess JAfd you wore a paper bag over your head cause you wanted to be incognito. |
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Let me guess JAfd you wore a paper bag over your head cause you wanted to be incognito. EXCELENT FUNNAY! |
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We're sorry, your call did not go through. Will you please try your call again. "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
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I've found that warez isn't worth the paranoia that it generates. me keepey hands offee things no belong to me. yesh. "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
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JMCDaveL: Extremely talented and as close to a living cartoon character as you will ever witness. let me guess--you've not seen a GWAR concert live and up close, then? - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Ouch, touche! Ok, maybe a different type of cartoon then? :P --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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Caryn: "Copyright owners must enforce their copyright in order to retain it, and if that means not allowing you to download a ROM of Street Fighter 1 even if it's too difficult for you to obtain legally, then so be it." Well, again, I recognize what they HAVE to do legally, and I respect that. I think it's frustrating, but that's the reality of the legal system. However, the reality of the internet (given both its vastness and p2p stuff) is that I can circumvent their best efforts no matter what, and thus the final distinction governing my behaviour HAS to be a moral one... and clearly this is the case with music as well. And, well, I guess I'm simply not convinced. But let me explain why :) "Convenience doesn't override what's legal or right, and I know I sound like a fanatic when I say this, but I believe it's morally right for any creator, be it an individual or a company, to enforce their rights to decide what happens to their own creative work. You can't pick and choose who has this right." I'm with you 110% on authors, but I really don't know where my feelings fall on collaborative efforts like movies and games where the group in control of the access to the work is almost always pretty unrelated to the people who put the actual blood, sweat, and tears into the creative process... and I think this is probably the heart of my own moral ambiguity in the area. I absolutely killed myself working on Soldier of Fortune 1, back when I was working at Raven. With the exception of one other member of the team, nobody really came close to the amount of pure _life_ I forfieted working on that game. There was a month near the end of the project where I worked constant 100 hours weeks which, if you do the math, comes out to be way too much time spent working for a person who gives a damn about staying mentally healthy. And you know what? If I find out that someone, right now, is pirating SoF and enjoying it, here is my response: cool. Someone is enjoying that game that I fucking killed myself to make. Do I wish I could be rewarded for having worked really hard on something creative? Sure. But here is the truth: quite a few of the people who made Soldier don't work for Raven and Activision anymore, myself included. The royalties that the actual team got (and Soldier vastly outperformed expectations) were pretty damn paltry, and people no longer with Activision get no further royalties whatsoever. With the exception of a priveledged few developers, most game makers are NOT making themselves fabulously wealthy making the games they're making. Most programmers really could do a lot better going into non-gaming programming fields. People make games because they like games and because they want other people to play them. I know that I can't speak for all other developers, but I have a lot of friends who make games professionally at a variety of companies, and most of them are pleasantly surprised if they find out that someone is enjoying a game they made a few years ago, regardless of the legal status of the copy of the game in question. That's not universal, of course - but it is remarkably prevalent, in my experience, anyway. And none of that matters from a legal standpoint. Regardless of whether I am comfortable with people playing my game from a few years back, it is the companies in question who call the shots. And companies are companies, and it is very rarely in a company's best interest to sate people's nostalgia without making any profit from it. Actually, from typing this out, I guess I have to say I do know where my feelings fall. The position of many game developers really isn't all that far off from a lot of musicians. Nathan |
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EvilAsh You so crazy! BTW, it's "a lot" - 2 words. As in, "You put your foot in your mouth a lot". I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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Ok, speaking of retro gaming, and warezing, and lack of purchase points, check out www.phillyclassic.com! I went to the one last year, and they had a lot of cool stuff. Some to buy, other stuff just to check out! Kinda strange playing Atari games that were never released. This years is in a few weeks, and its about 20 minutes outside of Philadelphia, but they have other shows like this around the country! Greg
-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having! |
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That assume he takes his foot out, which I refuse to do. Will warez for food.
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#111 Caryn: Copyright owners must enforce their copyright in order to retain it, and if that means not allowing you to download a ROM of Street Fighter 1 even if it's too difficult for you to obtain legally, then so be it. I think we've been over this before. Trademarks need to be defended, while copyright does not. If you copyright it, it's yours, no matter how many people use it, as long as you don't explicitly give up your rights. Try here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/law/copyright/faq/. The author was a law student, but since the last update was in 1994, it doesn't includ such joys as the DMCA. -Whisp |
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I generally put my foot up Warren's ass. Because his insults keep getting worse and worse. Seriously is that the best you can come up with? I expected a whole hell of a lot better from you. Tis boring responding to insults that bazooka joe would be ashamed of. |
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Oh and LP you still trying to reach for your nose? Or is this a past picture of yourself ? And you graduated to the Booger King academy with flying colors? |
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Tenacious D was in Birmingham on the 7th? Dammit! |
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Yes, because insulting my avatar is the one sure way to make me cry. You are SO asking for the Middle Finger of Justice. Will warez for food.
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Shit really.. Tell me when they be in Florida..So It can mean something to me!!! GRR |
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OOh the Middle Finger of Justice.. Is that like the Bitch Smack Of Righteousness that I laid on you? |
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EvilAss Yes, my responses are so much worse than the "Is that the best you can do?" form letter you churn out each time. Of course, I have the perfect response for you, but I'm going to save it for a later time. I'll take a while to savor the flavor. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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let me guess... "your mother!" ;) -chris |
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LOL |
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Nope. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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Yep at Sloss Furnace, on Jables birthday at that. You can always pick up the VCD copy of it on the newsgroups, since the D are cool and allow tape trading. :) Ill try to get ahold of it and share it on edonkey if I can. --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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re: #119... The difference is, not only was I serious, but I could well have been 100% accurate. Let's all starve him out now, hmmm? I'm all for that. Inane wastes of bandwidth like #138 prove that the well's done gone dry. Thanks for #125, Nathan. Always nice to hear from another "victim" of the warez scene. You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
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crash he struck me as being more of the "eating paint chips" variety. It tastes so sweet. I am laughing at the horror of being alive.
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Thats fine then guys. It's theft and I have stolen many ROMS of games that I legally own. Sue me. |
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Evi|ivE, your punishment will be to forever visit an alternate version of PlanetCrap where nothing but warez is discussed. Oh, wait... |
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lol |
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Jafd: Let's all starve him out now, hmmm? I'm all for that. Inane wastes of bandwidth like #138 prove that the well's done gone dry. No way! Having a really clueless person around makes us all look better. Besides, whilst he's here at least he's kept off the streets. Or roads. Whichever is scarier. -- ex Spatula Man --
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Warren: my, us two certainly are a funny bunch! No, I'm funny. You're just stupid. EvilAsh I have no clue. Perfect. I'm glad I had swallowed my cornflakes when I read that or I'd have a lot of cleaning to do. -- ex Spatula Man --
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Or maybe "alot of cleaning". -- ex Spatula Man --
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Evilash: Because his insults keep getting worse and worse. I really can't be arsed to search through for every instance of it, so I'll paraphrase: "Warren can't even get past Point X in JK2" (replace Point X with any point in the game, and repeat ad infinitum) Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
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#64 by Bailey Yeah, but I haven't been in a car accident now, have I? ...yet. I have but that's not stopping me... For the rest of the discussion: I've really tried to read through all the posts and wrap my head around this, even though I really don't care all that much, but I am still unsure about one thing. From what I can gather some of you are saying that even though I own the cartridge I am not allowed to DL the ROM as it's not the format I bought, others are saying that I can DL the ROM as I already own the game. I don't really know, or care, who's right but what if I DL the ROM and then transfer it to a cartridge? Is that within my legal rights? -- Martin
Hunkalicious since 1972! |
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#125 Nathan McKenzie, I felt more or less the same way when we were publishing pen and paper role-playing games. We had the rules printed in a magazine and quite happily gave scenarios out to fanzines that requested something to print. I met one guy at UK Gencon that was still running games from a photocopied version of the magazine edition. As long as they were playing them, I didn't mind where they got them from. We never made a lot of money from the games which probably coloured my thinking to some extent although you'd figure that I would care less about it if the games were actually pulling in the big money. I regret not putting up PDFs of the games when we eventually stopped printing them. I really should get around to it but I've been out of the scene so long, I wouldn't even know where to put the notices so that people could download them. I'd like them to be available in a format I could quality-control rather than bad photocopies (the books were always small enough to photocopy cost effectively ;) |
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OOh the Middle Finger of Justice.. Is that like the Bitch Smack Of Righteousness that I laid on you? ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Will warez for food.
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Hey Neale you think Warren finally got the lightsabre yet? Or has he been hiding his inept play at JK2.. by responding to me. Its a conspiracy I Tell ya!! I know! I Know! He got ahold of Dungeon Siege and gave up on Jk2 because it was too hard! And Jafd, How can you throw stones when you go through life with a bag on your head? You are so desperate to hide your gender ,yet you continually talk like some slack-jawed kid. Who are you fooling? If a poll was done of planetcrap members on what your gender is.. I pretty much believe the majority would say guy. I know many say they don't care.. But that's a different question. |
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