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Meh
March 29th 2002, 10:15 MSK by Bailey Recently, Jedi Knight II: Outcast, went gold. Slightly less recently, JK2:O was distributed widely over the warez and P2P systems. While I appreciate Raven as a development group, I have to ask if LucasArts is going to remove their collective head from their collective ass at any immediate juncture. Hot sticky warez scenes and new games get along like a house on fire. This is, quite assuredly, an uncontested and assured fact. So the question begets itself: while the single player experience cannot be copy protected, (short of Black&White-esque spyware narcing you out to the nazis at Lionhead) the multiplayer experience, more often than not, works quite well with CD-keys, online registration, and all that song and dance. No problem. Moreover, when a game is being developed on an engine/license that is well known for being quite reasonably secure online (i.e. the Q3 engine in this particular case) there really doesn't seem to be any particular reason that the game shouldn't incorporate the strengths and overcome the weaknesses of it's predecessors. So the question is, why are a few thousand people jedi-ing it up on the Zone days before JK2:O hits the shelves? To reiterate, I like Raven. I really do. They make some funky games. And I have a passion for LucasArts which burns back to the Dark Forces/Sam n' Max days. But I find myself completely unable to sympathize with either party when their collective clusterfuck/game is distributed to tens of thousands of people a week before the boxed product is even in stores. This is akin to the whole fiasco surrounding Rune, a game which was on the warez scene in gold format an entire month before it was in stores. At which point, the staff posted on the forums about how it was stealing bread from the mouths of their children. Pardon me for saying so, but it's a bit frigging late to whine about the cows wandering off when you intentionally left the barn door unlocked and wide open with giant flashing neon signs screaming "BOVINE EGRESS" to one and all. Why would LucasArts not opt for some sort of security, CD-key, copy protection, of any kind whatsoever? Why would anyone throw away a good chunk of the profits for the past year or so of their hard work? Justify Episode One! The only immediate answer I can come up with is this: Everyone is stupid but me. |
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The pawn must undress the queen. |
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Yeah. End of story.
-max |
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especially when even the actual sales numbers of a game are a secret closely guarded by the publishers. I don't understand why this information isn't available. What exactly do they gain by holding this close to the vest? Honestly wondering. I'm sure there are sound reasons, but from the outside looking in, it makes publishers look very much like thieves. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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The statue is made of iron and copper ... |
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Lucas should be more worried about his light saber crapa-thon being available on the net 1 hour after opening day. .....Yet Another 0l$en Twin Approved +12 Post!
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Hulka - or, alternately, a few weeks BEFORE opening day. -chris |
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Well, to be fair, it wouldn't have mattered if there was "ironclad" protection on the title. It would have been just as eagerly anticipated, and just as much effort would have gone into it, if not more. Couple that with the fact that all it takes is a persistent DoS attack on the authserver and the protection is useless... really, the picture is becoming more clear. If they're thinking this, then on the question of the demo... they may have figured, "why bother making a demo when people will just steal the whole thing anyway"? And that would explain why they aren't saying anything either. What's the announcement going to read like? "We cannot stand against the forces of piracy, so we aren't putting any auth check in, and we aren't doing a demo." I mean, whatever, talk about fanning the flames. Well, that was fun. EOD? Someone tell me I'm wrong. I really like that. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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A main reason to have two separate executables is because it's easier to develop. Single player doesn't have a completely pointless networking layer with separated client/server and such getting in the way, and multiplayer doesn't have any excess baggage in terms of entity functionality ("It has to stay this way to keep from breaking half the single-player levels"). |
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The Computer is your friend™. The Computer makes sure that everyone is happy. You want to serve the Computer in order to be happy. Not being happy is treason. The penalty for treason is death. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Trust no-one. Keep your laser handy. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Poor Ritual having to make sequel to Raven games...what's the world coming to? Who the fuck wasn't a sequel to Elite Force anyway? |
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Who the fuck wasn't a sequel to Elite Force anyway? Well, I'm not, for one. I'm a sequel to Chinese Ghost Story. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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Happiness is Mandatory. |
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crash The Computer is your friend™. The Computer makes sure that everyone is happy. You want to serve the Computer in order to be happy. Not being happy is treason. The penalty for treason is death. And here I am thinking I'm the only Paranoia player left in the universe. Funk. |
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And here I am thinking I'm the only Paranoia player left in the universe. sorry, friend, that's a treasonous statement. *zzzzap* - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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crash sorry, friend, that's a treasonous statement. Clone Funkd-R-unk #2 reporting for duty. Funk. |
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me cannot type the glammal well no enough. |
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Clone Funkd-R-unk #2 reporting for duty. *sniff* smells like mutant in here all of a sudden. must be the new guy. *zzzap* - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Funkdrunk And here I am thinking I'm the only Paranoia player left in the universe. Universe? Only Commies and Mutants have been Outside. |
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Only Commies and Mutants have been Outside. and how do you know that, citizen? treason! *zzzzap* - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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crash smells like mutant in here all of a sudden. must be the new guy. Clone Funkd-R-unk 3 reporting for duty. I am not a MUTIE! Commie maybe, but not a mutie. Why is everybody looking at me? Aw heck, I'll escort myself to the recycle bins. Funk. |
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#89 jafd I don't understand why (game sales) information isn't available. What exactly do they gain by holding this close to the vest? Honestly wondering. I'm sure there are sound reasons, but from the outside looking in, it makes publishers look very much like thieves. my short, rage-against-the-man answer is "because they are thieves". the official explanation i've been given is "if sales figures were public, it would lead to insider trading practices, investors blah blah blah". never made much sense to me. i should really try to extract a better, more conclusive answer because it really brings out my paranoid persecuted developer mentality. it's shitty not knowing exactly how many copies your game has sold - PC Data and stuff like that gives an incomplete picture at best. my tinfoil hat instincts tell me it's knowledge that the publishers hold over our heads "do this shitty derivative game for us, because it will sell well because it's just like this other game that sold really well", and if we can't actually confirm how well the derived game sold, we have no leg to stand on. ah well. like i said, i'm excessively paranoid about it. i'd really like to see hard numbers on the subject though. |
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Does anyone know how much something like safedisc cost per copy? Lucasarts would'nt have done it to save a little dough up front would they? |
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saving 25 cents a copy in order to lose a buck a copy isn't what i'd call sound fiscal practices. "No worries; we'll make it up in volume!" - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Well it's partly obvious to me. Lemme explain ... No auth key: OK, maybe I can't explain that. Yes, they're quite possibly retarded for not doing so. Or Welsh/believe in the Easter Bunny. No SafeDisc: Let's not beat around the bush. It's shit. It doesn't work. It's useless. When I was about 16, I could burn a copy of a SafeDisc/SecuROM "protected" game in half an hour. Subsequent copies took even less time. It causes issues with disc reading. Publishers have to pay for it. For something that is USELESS. CRAP. SUPERMARKET'S OWN BRAND. TALIBAN. It's a minor miracle publishers never twigged earlier on. It's a minor obstacle at best, far from protection. It'll possibly prevent really casual copiers who swear by Adaptec Easy CD Creator, but anyone else just pisses on the thing. |
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and how do you know that, citizen? treason! crap. |
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ahh paranoia, alice through the mirror shades. I got to play 4 hours of a campaign ... the GM _hated_ me, because the rest of the group had your usual run of the mill backstabbing ideas, whilst I was busily creating George Smiley (tinker tailor soldier spy) levels of machiavellian mayhem. :> amusingly, whilst rummaging around on Kazaa, I stumbled across parts of the Episode 2 sound track.. and interestingly, a file marked (SMR) Episode 2 - roughcut (1 of 2).avi oh the temptation. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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Scrozzy No SafeDisc: Let's not beat around the bush. It's shit. It doesn't work. It's useless. When I was about 16, I could burn a copy of a SafeDisc/SecuROM "protected" game in half an hour. Subsequent copies took even less time. It causes issues with disc reading. Publishers have to pay for it. For something that is USELESS. CRAP. SUPERMARKET'S OWN BRAND. TALIBAN. It's a minor miracle publishers never twigged earlier on. It's a minor obstacle at best, far from protection. It'll possibly prevent really casual copiers who swear by Adaptec Easy CD Creator, but anyone else just pisses on the thing. I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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I got to play 4 hours of a campaign ... somewhat unsurprisingly, games with me in 'em rarely lasted more than about a half hour. in one memorable game, one of the other players couldn't stop laughin for about 15 minutes after it was over. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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*hugs* crash, funkdrunk and Hiredgoons. Then sends them off to guard a Warbot. Sorry, I was just suffused with old school Paranoia love there for a second. I used to run that for fun a couple times a month back in college. |
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most burners come with the software necessary to burn safedisc games. Doesn't take much to bypass it. |
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Hugin Warbot? What's a Warbot? I was lucky if I ever made it out of a briefing room. As long as we're fantasing about our dream games...It'd be great to see the Neverwinter system be used for a Paranoia universe. It looks like we'd have a great game as it appears there are some excellent Troubleshooters on PC. For some reason, that makes me extraordinarily nervous. And by nervous, friend citizen, I mean Happy. Extraordinarily Happy. |
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Warren, it isn't as though people are living in an information vaccuum anymore. Go to Google, type in "bypass copy protection (insert name of any game here)" and tell us how long it takes you to get step-by-step instructions. It isn't like this stuff involves hex-editing. Not anymore. Joe Compaq can click URLs and follow simple instructions just as easily as anyone else. More easily, I suppose, he's not so uppity as to try and improvise in order to be l33t. The technical barriers have, for all practical purposes, fallen. The major source of stoppage now is the peoples' code of ethics... which, honestly, I believe to be stronger than any other form of protection. However, most "codes of ethics" among today's youth involves "defying Lord Vader," so, whatever. Developer, Publisher, Consumer, Government... who, generally speaking, is the "enemy" in the eyes of the average post-pubescent North American male? What's funny is, the last time we had the "giving them too much credit" discussion, you ended up conceding the point and admitting that the whole process has gotten very, very easy. So, what? Were you foolin' then? Or do you think that people have gotten stupider, and protection schemes have gotten better, in the last few months since then? I don't really think I like it any better than you do, but, it is what it is. #108 - Wow. Amazing. It never even occurred to me that the developers themselves are having that sales data withheld from them. That's total insanity. Is this the standard practice across the board, or is it only the small time (no offense, JP) developers who get the shaft like that? "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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#114 by Warren Marshall I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. Mayhaps, but that's assuming that everyone has to defeat the protection themself. Generally, out of a group of friends with computers, there's at least one (1) that has enough of the know-how (not that it takes much) to by-pass a simple safedisc protection. Considering these same friends also install most of the software, Joe Compaq or whatever the hell you call that generalization never knows there was protection in the first place. Heck, a lot of them probably don't even realize its illegal. "Dream of me... and maybe, just maybe, this nightmare will end."
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Mayhaps, but that's assuming that everyone has to defeat the protection themself. Generally, out of a group of friends with computers, there's at least one (1) that has enough of the know-how (not that it takes much) to by-pass a simple safedisc protection. You've way way over estimated was warren means by casual. Story time to tell you exactly the type of people he means here. Last christmas I was at my uncles place for a week while they where on vacation. While they where gone I desided to play their copy of AoE2, which wouldn't you know he took the CD with him. A simple stop by gamecopyworld of course fixes that little problem. I happened to be playing when they came back, after giving me a confused look he asked how I managed to get it working with out the CD. He never tried putting by pass copy protection into a search engine becuase he never even put any thought at all into why the CD was required to play the game. This out of what I'd consider a slightly above average user, that has no trouble finding and burning MP3's to a CD (heck he even programed a bit back in college, nothing big just a few classes). Here's the real kicker tho, his game collection has a real risk of getting larger then mine in a few months. |
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SCOTT MILLER: I'd like to congratulate you on your TTWO gains today. Every since you mentioned the stock, it's struggled. Yet today it went up 1.52%. I see the stock peaking out at $22 sometime in the next week, and then it will go right back down to $20 again. Paul A. Bullman, Board Certified Crapologist.
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I've been selling copies of JK2 out of the back of my truck all day, and all I've got to show for it is $510 at $10 a copy. You are making my being drunk at one in the afternoon a less pleasant experience.
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btw, Funkdrunk: smells like mutant in here all of a sudden. must be the new guy. Clone Funkd-R-unk 3 reporting for duty. I am not a MUTIE! Commie maybe, but not a mutie. it's been a while for you, hasn't it? come on, my gun shouldn't have cleared the holster after a softball like that one... "So, how do YOU know what a mutant smells like, citizen? TREASON!" *zzzzap* jafd: It never even occurred to me that the developers themselves are having that sales data withheld from them. um. i thought at first this was sarcasm, but with the follow-up, it really does look like you're not kidding. so, going on the premise that yes, you're actually serious, let's look at it from a publisher's point of view. you front devs, say, 4 million bucks to develop a title with the contract stating all their share of the income will go towards that 4 million first before they get paid. if you don't tell them--or anyone--how many units you're moving, when will the developers stop owing you money? when will they start actually earning profits on a hot title? uh, that'd be never. it's in a publisher's best interest to never disclose that information. capitalistically speaking, of course. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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oh, and so far, jk2 can kiss my ass. yay non-intuitive "puzzles"! whee! - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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jafd: Deadlock, I can't believe you just said that Q3 can be installed entirely to the HD, but Deus Ex couldn't be. The difference in installation footprints is less than 200MB, certain, likely much less. Are you of the opinion that DX was too long, as well? No, although I must confess that I have never finished it. Someone told me what the last mission is and, to be honest, I just couldn't face playing a mission that creates the illusion of difficulty by having enemies respawn over and over and over. Anyhoo, it's a while since I last installed Deus Ex; for some reaosn I thought that the max install in DE was everything but dialogue or something similar, requiring the CD to be in the drive at all times. Evidently not. I was going to point out that more and more games will have to be released on multiple disks or DVD to accomodate the increased size and scope of their assets (ie, better graphics hardware will mean larger, more detailed textures, more detailed levels etc.), but that's kinda redundant since hard drives are also getting bigger and bigger. you think you're funny ? I'll cut a hole in your head and piss through it...
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crash It's not non-intuitive, it's super-size obtuse. For those interested, Dungeon Siege is currently on the Donkey with an all-time high availability of 12. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that it fits in nicely with the theme of the topic. You are making my being drunk at one in the afternoon a less pleasant experience.
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No, although I must confess that I have never finished it. Someone told me what the last mission is and, to be honest, I just couldn't face playing a mission that creates the illusion of difficulty by having enemies respawn over and over and over. They must have made it sound much worse then it acctauly is. Two of the endings are possible to get with out killing the respawning enemies (it helps to get a little helper for the middle floor). That and you can prevent the respawning by shutting the UC doors (the bottom floor is a pain, bit easyer with a GEP or LAW to help with getting to the the UC door controls but still a pain). Granted they may not have known about closing the UC doors off since they can be hard to spot if your trying to kill every thing on the level or just running like hell the whole time. |
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crash it's been a while for you, hasn't it? come on, my gun shouldn't have cleared the holster after a softball like that one... "So, how do YOU know what a mutant smells like, citizen? TREASON!" *zzzzap* Nope. Clones don't remember what the other clone went through. So, one of the other troubleshooters should have yelled that out, and blasted you. My next clone wouldn't know. However, me - the player - would, and would be looking for my first chance at revenge. Funk. |
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which is becoming oddly common of late, as Bridge commander does the same thing; neither requires a code or uses Safedisc. Why 50 dollar games would not use Safedisc at least, while 20 dollar games like Serious Sam do, befuddles me. Well, it might be that Safedisc, and particularly Safedisc II, causes technical problems with some people's CD_ROM drives. SimGolf has SafediscII and I cannot play the game because when the drive tries to read the disc, it hangs the computer. MOH has the same thing, or something similar, because it does the same thing. |
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warren: I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. I wouldn't stick to that idea too long anymore. Sure, yo grandpops (figuratively speaking of course, wouldn't wanna insult your grandfather) can't do all that stuff, but nowadays... everyone grows up with computers and everyone knows how to operate them. So it's not much of a deal for anyone to aqcuire a certain cd burning software package (or warez it) which bypasses safedisc, and use it. As a point: today there was an article a Dutch newspaper about a cd-store closing its doors because it got into the red marks. There was an interview with the storekeeper and he said he went to the bank to get a loan, but the account manager at the bank told him: "CD's, sir? I burn those myself at home." There you go. "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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Warren: I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. Nope, not anymore. Gamecopyworld will tell you exactly what you need to do, and the traffic they get is WAY more then just the hardcore. But you miss the point. It doesn't matter. Because in the age of P2P, all you need is 1 working copy in the wild. Copy protection is irrelevent. Which is why the record companies getting into the copy protection game is really stupid. It pisses people off, and you STILL will have tunes in the wild. You also miss that most computers that joe casual buys today can defeat even safedisc2. HP's are great for that, Sony's not so much so. Lite-On makes the internal CDRW components to many, drives, made by Cendyne, BUSlink, Pacific Digital, Digital Research. Every one one of those uses the same drive, same firmware, etc, and defeat all copy protections. No special settings, just Clone CD (about the most warezed program out there), which will usually crack safedisc with zero input from the user. Those drives are damn cheap too, we ain't talking Plextor prices. CD Mate is darn near as easy. CDRWin will do it now. Not saying everyone is doing it, but you need to realize it certainly isn't just the hardcore geeks that have figured this out. There are some really dumb people out there cracking safedisc two - or downloading someone elses crack on Kaaza. Common post in CDR forums, "Hi, I just got a computer with a CDR Drive. What's a good program for backing up Max Payne?" Plus, the beginings of the backlash - cause by the RIAA really - is really motivating people to learn about this stuff. Mostly because you alway made a tape of an album/CD for the car, everyone made a copy for their brother, etc. Ain't a big deal. So unlike with games, people have an expectation to be able to copy their music as they like - and they won't let that go easily. Naturally, this will lead to learning about game protection schemes. Frankly, you guys have limited time. The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
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um, pretend all that is typed correctly. The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
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none-1a: Cheers, I've been thinking about dusting off Deus Ex, because up to the point that I had played it, it was excellent (just arrived in Paris, IIRC). You've restored my faith in mankind! If only you could do something for my faith in woman... you think you're funny ? I'll cut a hole in your head and piss through it...
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#126 deadlock No, although I must confess that I have never finished <Deus Ex>. Someone told me what the last mission is and, to be honest, I just couldn't face playing a mission that creates the illusion of difficulty by having enemies respawn over and over and over. the difficulty of the last mission doesn't come from the respawning enemies at all. the devices that spawn the enemies can be shut down in several ways anyway. if you approach deus ex like a standard FPS, you won't get anything more out of it than that. combat is not the game's central challenge - especially not by the end of the game, when you're a nano-augmented god among men - it's decision making. oh, and whoever said the hong kong levels were the worst in the game has been freebasing meow mix. that series of levels represents some of the best mission design and execution of a semi-persistent world EVAR. |
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jafd The technical barriers have, for all practical purposes, fallen. I think that's an illusion. Computers are still intimidating to a great number of people. Computers still require a certain level of knowledge to get running properly, and finding stuff on the web requires patience and knowledge of what to click and what NOT to click. A n00b trying to find a CD crack on the web will quickly find himself hip deep in porn pop ups. Even if they DO find the file, they have to download it and unzip it ... .. "unzip"? I'm serious. Don't overestimate people. Your circle of friends, and people you know on the side, do NOT represent Joe Compaq. LPMiller Frankly, you guys have limited time. Heh. Not really. Existing copy protection is there because it stops most people. When it stops doing that, it'll be replaced by something else that stops the majority of the new generation. It isn't like SafeDisc is the final solution. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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