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Meh
March 29th 2002, 10:15 GMT by Bailey Recently, Jedi Knight II: Outcast, went gold. Slightly less recently, JK2:O was distributed widely over the warez and P2P systems. While I appreciate Raven as a development group, I have to ask if LucasArts is going to remove their collective head from their collective ass at any immediate juncture. Hot sticky warez scenes and new games get along like a house on fire. This is, quite assuredly, an uncontested and assured fact. So the question begets itself: while the single player experience cannot be copy protected, (short of Black&White-esque spyware narcing you out to the nazis at Lionhead) the multiplayer experience, more often than not, works quite well with CD-keys, online registration, and all that song and dance. No problem. Moreover, when a game is being developed on an engine/license that is well known for being quite reasonably secure online (i.e. the Q3 engine in this particular case) there really doesn't seem to be any particular reason that the game shouldn't incorporate the strengths and overcome the weaknesses of it's predecessors. So the question is, why are a few thousand people jedi-ing it up on the Zone days before JK2:O hits the shelves? To reiterate, I like Raven. I really do. They make some funky games. And I have a passion for LucasArts which burns back to the Dark Forces/Sam n' Max days. But I find myself completely unable to sympathize with either party when their collective clusterfuck/game is distributed to tens of thousands of people a week before the boxed product is even in stores. This is akin to the whole fiasco surrounding Rune, a game which was on the warez scene in gold format an entire month before it was in stores. At which point, the staff posted on the forums about how it was stealing bread from the mouths of their children. Pardon me for saying so, but it's a bit frigging late to whine about the cows wandering off when you intentionally left the barn door unlocked and wide open with giant flashing neon signs screaming "BOVINE EGRESS" to one and all. Why would LucasArts not opt for some sort of security, CD-key, copy protection, of any kind whatsoever? Why would anyone throw away a good chunk of the profits for the past year or so of their hard work? Justify Episode One! The only immediate answer I can come up with is this: Everyone is stupid but me. |
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Topic: Meh
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Oh, BTW, jafd, I hate to say it but I went down to EB today to pick up my tin box and couldn't bring myself to do it. Sixty bucks just seems like too much for any game, even a game that has a lightsaber keychain. I already have DF and JK in fine shape, so that's not a selling point. However, I am actively looking for lightsaber keychains. Anyone want to sell me theirs? -max
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Shit. End of story. -max
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Dumbass. lol End of story. |
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Thinking... |
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Dumbass. lol Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.
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I don't know the basement details, but a nice thing about having SP and MP as separate launchers, is that your video settings and your configs are kept independent. Sure, you can program all the different settings into a .cfg and exec it as needed, but that's a hassle that not everyone wants to have to deal with from the get go. Max, I don't blame you in the least. I thought you were talking madness to begin with. I mean, I really like the idea of a "tin box." But when I held the Q3 tin box in my hands... I couldn't help but notice that it was really light, with a bunch of marketing-fu glued to the back very poorly, and... look, callling it a "collector's edition" is the worst sort of tripe. JK is definitely a really nifty game, though. Definitely worth $40... so far. I've certainly bought buggier games for more money. Raven is to be commended. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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This is probably a smart move on Lucasarts' part. Sure, they are going to lose some sales to piracy, but I wouldn't be that surprised if the cost of running a server for the lifetime of a game (how long is that anyway? Q3's auth servers are still going 3+ years after the fact) is much less than the initial loss of revenue! Bandwidth isn't cheap, good reliable servers aren't cheap, support people to ensure the server is up and operating aren't cheap... Just because Q3 comes with the ability to auth doesn't mean its 'free' to use that...There's a ton of recurring costs, not to even mention the tech support costs they'd probably get hit when there's a problem with the master auth servers (note: JK2's market demographic is probably a lot more mainstream than Q3's hardcore gamer crowd, so things have to be real straightforward so even casual gamers can get things going easily). In any case, Lucasarts probably also sees JK2 as a lead-in to Star Wars Galaxies, where obviously there will be no real piracy problem (shouldn't be anyway)...Galaxies is where the real long-term revenue is going to roll in (assuming it doesn't suck ass).. So even if they lose some money on JK2 (they won't, they'll still make a huge profit from it, even with the no-network-copyprotection) it would still be a great way to generate mindshare that might carry over to Galaxies. |
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Doh, I meant "much more" not "much less" in regards to cost of running the server. |
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Perhaps Raven held out for so much cash, that LucasArts really couldn't afford the auth serve thing. I don't see that as inconcievable. Is there any other developer out there with a track record like Raven's? Linear levels blah blah not enough patching yadda yadda anti-climatic endings bitch bitch... B.F.D., they crank out very acceptable games, according to spec, fast. Plus, they're in bed with Id like no one else is. If it weren't a Raven product, and there weren't a demo, I wouldn't even be thinking about JK2, let alone, buying the game. I doubt that I'm the only one who has feelings along these lines. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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Offtopic secret message for szcx: Fuck you Witty Quote
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The dog barks at midnight. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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The choads are not what they seem. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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courtesy of seth: I hate car thieves, but bicycle thieves - those things are just asking to be ridden away! They don't have pedal locks or an ignition that needs to be hotwired or anything! *ahem* for the record, the Rune gold master was leaked to the warez scene sometime between here and the replication facility. i guess we were begging for it, though. by putting it on a compact disc and all. it's almost impossible to determine how much of an impact piracy has on the sales of any given game, especially when even the actual sales numbers of a game are a secret closely guarded by the publishers. they're not going to give you an accurate number, no more than the RIAA's figures on how much napster hurt the music industry. guh. |
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The bishop must watch the pawn. |
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The pawn must undress the queen. |
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Yeah. End of story.
-max |
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especially when even the actual sales numbers of a game are a secret closely guarded by the publishers. I don't understand why this information isn't available. What exactly do they gain by holding this close to the vest? Honestly wondering. I'm sure there are sound reasons, but from the outside looking in, it makes publishers look very much like thieves. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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The statue is made of iron and copper ... |
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Lucas should be more worried about his light saber crapa-thon being available on the net 1 hour after opening day. .....Yet Another 0l$en Twin Approved +12 Post!
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Hulka - or, alternately, a few weeks BEFORE opening day. -chris |
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Well, to be fair, it wouldn't have mattered if there was "ironclad" protection on the title. It would have been just as eagerly anticipated, and just as much effort would have gone into it, if not more. Couple that with the fact that all it takes is a persistent DoS attack on the authserver and the protection is useless... really, the picture is becoming more clear. If they're thinking this, then on the question of the demo... they may have figured, "why bother making a demo when people will just steal the whole thing anyway"? And that would explain why they aren't saying anything either. What's the announcement going to read like? "We cannot stand against the forces of piracy, so we aren't putting any auth check in, and we aren't doing a demo." I mean, whatever, talk about fanning the flames. Well, that was fun. EOD? Someone tell me I'm wrong. I really like that. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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A main reason to have two separate executables is because it's easier to develop. Single player doesn't have a completely pointless networking layer with separated client/server and such getting in the way, and multiplayer doesn't have any excess baggage in terms of entity functionality ("It has to stay this way to keep from breaking half the single-player levels"). |
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The Computer is your friend™. The Computer makes sure that everyone is happy. You want to serve the Computer in order to be happy. Not being happy is treason. The penalty for treason is death. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Trust no-one. Keep your laser handy. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Poor Ritual having to make sequel to Raven games...what's the world coming to? Who the fuck wasn't a sequel to Elite Force anyway? |
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Who the fuck wasn't a sequel to Elite Force anyway? Well, I'm not, for one. I'm a sequel to Chinese Ghost Story. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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Happiness is Mandatory. |
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crash The Computer is your friend™. The Computer makes sure that everyone is happy. You want to serve the Computer in order to be happy. Not being happy is treason. The penalty for treason is death. And here I am thinking I'm the only Paranoia player left in the universe. Funk. |
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And here I am thinking I'm the only Paranoia player left in the universe. sorry, friend, that's a treasonous statement. *zzzzap* - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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crash sorry, friend, that's a treasonous statement. Clone Funkd-R-unk #2 reporting for duty. Funk. |
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me cannot type the glammal well no enough. |
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Clone Funkd-R-unk #2 reporting for duty. *sniff* smells like mutant in here all of a sudden. must be the new guy. *zzzap* - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Funkdrunk And here I am thinking I'm the only Paranoia player left in the universe. Universe? Only Commies and Mutants have been Outside. |
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Only Commies and Mutants have been Outside. and how do you know that, citizen? treason! *zzzzap* - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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crash smells like mutant in here all of a sudden. must be the new guy. Clone Funkd-R-unk 3 reporting for duty. I am not a MUTIE! Commie maybe, but not a mutie. Why is everybody looking at me? Aw heck, I'll escort myself to the recycle bins. Funk. |
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#89 jafd I don't understand why (game sales) information isn't available. What exactly do they gain by holding this close to the vest? Honestly wondering. I'm sure there are sound reasons, but from the outside looking in, it makes publishers look very much like thieves. my short, rage-against-the-man answer is "because they are thieves". the official explanation i've been given is "if sales figures were public, it would lead to insider trading practices, investors blah blah blah". never made much sense to me. i should really try to extract a better, more conclusive answer because it really brings out my paranoid persecuted developer mentality. it's shitty not knowing exactly how many copies your game has sold - PC Data and stuff like that gives an incomplete picture at best. my tinfoil hat instincts tell me it's knowledge that the publishers hold over our heads "do this shitty derivative game for us, because it will sell well because it's just like this other game that sold really well", and if we can't actually confirm how well the derived game sold, we have no leg to stand on. ah well. like i said, i'm excessively paranoid about it. i'd really like to see hard numbers on the subject though. |
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Does anyone know how much something like safedisc cost per copy? Lucasarts would'nt have done it to save a little dough up front would they? |
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saving 25 cents a copy in order to lose a buck a copy isn't what i'd call sound fiscal practices. "No worries; we'll make it up in volume!" - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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Well it's partly obvious to me. Lemme explain ... No auth key: OK, maybe I can't explain that. Yes, they're quite possibly retarded for not doing so. Or Welsh/believe in the Easter Bunny. No SafeDisc: Let's not beat around the bush. It's shit. It doesn't work. It's useless. When I was about 16, I could burn a copy of a SafeDisc/SecuROM "protected" game in half an hour. Subsequent copies took even less time. It causes issues with disc reading. Publishers have to pay for it. For something that is USELESS. CRAP. SUPERMARKET'S OWN BRAND. TALIBAN. It's a minor miracle publishers never twigged earlier on. It's a minor obstacle at best, far from protection. It'll possibly prevent really casual copiers who swear by Adaptec Easy CD Creator, but anyone else just pisses on the thing. |
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and how do you know that, citizen? treason! crap. |
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ahh paranoia, alice through the mirror shades. I got to play 4 hours of a campaign ... the GM _hated_ me, because the rest of the group had your usual run of the mill backstabbing ideas, whilst I was busily creating George Smiley (tinker tailor soldier spy) levels of machiavellian mayhem. :> amusingly, whilst rummaging around on Kazaa, I stumbled across parts of the Episode 2 sound track.. and interestingly, a file marked (SMR) Episode 2 - roughcut (1 of 2).avi oh the temptation. Ds Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
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Scrozzy No SafeDisc: Let's not beat around the bush. It's shit. It doesn't work. It's useless. When I was about 16, I could burn a copy of a SafeDisc/SecuROM "protected" game in half an hour. Subsequent copies took even less time. It causes issues with disc reading. Publishers have to pay for it. For something that is USELESS. CRAP. SUPERMARKET'S OWN BRAND. TALIBAN. It's a minor miracle publishers never twigged earlier on. It's a minor obstacle at best, far from protection. It'll possibly prevent really casual copiers who swear by Adaptec Easy CD Creator, but anyone else just pisses on the thing. I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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I got to play 4 hours of a campaign ... somewhat unsurprisingly, games with me in 'em rarely lasted more than about a half hour. in one memorable game, one of the other players couldn't stop laughin for about 15 minutes after it was over. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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*hugs* crash, funkdrunk and Hiredgoons. Then sends them off to guard a Warbot. Sorry, I was just suffused with old school Paranoia love there for a second. I used to run that for fun a couple times a month back in college. |
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most burners come with the software necessary to burn safedisc games. Doesn't take much to bypass it. |
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Hugin Warbot? What's a Warbot? I was lucky if I ever made it out of a briefing room. As long as we're fantasing about our dream games...It'd be great to see the Neverwinter system be used for a Paranoia universe. It looks like we'd have a great game as it appears there are some excellent Troubleshooters on PC. For some reason, that makes me extraordinarily nervous. And by nervous, friend citizen, I mean Happy. Extraordinarily Happy. |
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Warren, it isn't as though people are living in an information vaccuum anymore. Go to Google, type in "bypass copy protection (insert name of any game here)" and tell us how long it takes you to get step-by-step instructions. It isn't like this stuff involves hex-editing. Not anymore. Joe Compaq can click URLs and follow simple instructions just as easily as anyone else. More easily, I suppose, he's not so uppity as to try and improvise in order to be l33t. The technical barriers have, for all practical purposes, fallen. The major source of stoppage now is the peoples' code of ethics... which, honestly, I believe to be stronger than any other form of protection. However, most "codes of ethics" among today's youth involves "defying Lord Vader," so, whatever. Developer, Publisher, Consumer, Government... who, generally speaking, is the "enemy" in the eyes of the average post-pubescent North American male? What's funny is, the last time we had the "giving them too much credit" discussion, you ended up conceding the point and admitting that the whole process has gotten very, very easy. So, what? Were you foolin' then? Or do you think that people have gotten stupider, and protection schemes have gotten better, in the last few months since then? I don't really think I like it any better than you do, but, it is what it is. #108 - Wow. Amazing. It never even occurred to me that the developers themselves are having that sales data withheld from them. That's total insanity. Is this the standard practice across the board, or is it only the small time (no offense, JP) developers who get the shaft like that? "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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#114 by Warren Marshall I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. Mayhaps, but that's assuming that everyone has to defeat the protection themself. Generally, out of a group of friends with computers, there's at least one (1) that has enough of the know-how (not that it takes much) to by-pass a simple safedisc protection. Considering these same friends also install most of the software, Joe Compaq or whatever the hell you call that generalization never knows there was protection in the first place. Heck, a lot of them probably don't even realize its illegal. "Dream of me... and maybe, just maybe, this nightmare will end."
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Mayhaps, but that's assuming that everyone has to defeat the protection themself. Generally, out of a group of friends with computers, there's at least one (1) that has enough of the know-how (not that it takes much) to by-pass a simple safedisc protection. You've way way over estimated was warren means by casual. Story time to tell you exactly the type of people he means here. Last christmas I was at my uncles place for a week while they where on vacation. While they where gone I desided to play their copy of AoE2, which wouldn't you know he took the CD with him. A simple stop by gamecopyworld of course fixes that little problem. I happened to be playing when they came back, after giving me a confused look he asked how I managed to get it working with out the CD. He never tried putting by pass copy protection into a search engine becuase he never even put any thought at all into why the CD was required to play the game. This out of what I'd consider a slightly above average user, that has no trouble finding and burning MP3's to a CD (heck he even programed a bit back in college, nothing big just a few classes). Here's the real kicker tho, his game collection has a real risk of getting larger then mine in a few months. |
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SCOTT MILLER: I'd like to congratulate you on your TTWO gains today. Every since you mentioned the stock, it's struggled. Yet today it went up 1.52%. I see the stock peaking out at $22 sometime in the next week, and then it will go right back down to $20 again. Paul A. Bullman, Board Certified Crapologist.
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