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Meh
March 29th 2002, 10:15 GMT by Bailey Recently, Jedi Knight II: Outcast, went gold. Slightly less recently, JK2:O was distributed widely over the warez and P2P systems. While I appreciate Raven as a development group, I have to ask if LucasArts is going to remove their collective head from their collective ass at any immediate juncture. Hot sticky warez scenes and new games get along like a house on fire. This is, quite assuredly, an uncontested and assured fact. So the question begets itself: while the single player experience cannot be copy protected, (short of Black&White-esque spyware narcing you out to the nazis at Lionhead) the multiplayer experience, more often than not, works quite well with CD-keys, online registration, and all that song and dance. No problem. Moreover, when a game is being developed on an engine/license that is well known for being quite reasonably secure online (i.e. the Q3 engine in this particular case) there really doesn't seem to be any particular reason that the game shouldn't incorporate the strengths and overcome the weaknesses of it's predecessors. So the question is, why are a few thousand people jedi-ing it up on the Zone days before JK2:O hits the shelves? To reiterate, I like Raven. I really do. They make some funky games. And I have a passion for LucasArts which burns back to the Dark Forces/Sam n' Max days. But I find myself completely unable to sympathize with either party when their collective clusterfuck/game is distributed to tens of thousands of people a week before the boxed product is even in stores. This is akin to the whole fiasco surrounding Rune, a game which was on the warez scene in gold format an entire month before it was in stores. At which point, the staff posted on the forums about how it was stealing bread from the mouths of their children. Pardon me for saying so, but it's a bit frigging late to whine about the cows wandering off when you intentionally left the barn door unlocked and wide open with giant flashing neon signs screaming "BOVINE EGRESS" to one and all. Why would LucasArts not opt for some sort of security, CD-key, copy protection, of any kind whatsoever? Why would anyone throw away a good chunk of the profits for the past year or so of their hard work? Justify Episode One! The only immediate answer I can come up with is this: Everyone is stupid but me. |
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Scrozzy No SafeDisc: Let's not beat around the bush. It's shit. It doesn't work. It's useless. When I was about 16, I could burn a copy of a SafeDisc/SecuROM "protected" game in half an hour. Subsequent copies took even less time. It causes issues with disc reading. Publishers have to pay for it. For something that is USELESS. CRAP. SUPERMARKET'S OWN BRAND. TALIBAN. It's a minor miracle publishers never twigged earlier on. It's a minor obstacle at best, far from protection. It'll possibly prevent really casual copiers who swear by Adaptec Easy CD Creator, but anyone else just pisses on the thing. I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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I got to play 4 hours of a campaign ... somewhat unsurprisingly, games with me in 'em rarely lasted more than about a half hour. in one memorable game, one of the other players couldn't stop laughin for about 15 minutes after it was over. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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*hugs* crash, funkdrunk and Hiredgoons. Then sends them off to guard a Warbot. Sorry, I was just suffused with old school Paranoia love there for a second. I used to run that for fun a couple times a month back in college. |
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most burners come with the software necessary to burn safedisc games. Doesn't take much to bypass it. |
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Hugin Warbot? What's a Warbot? I was lucky if I ever made it out of a briefing room. As long as we're fantasing about our dream games...It'd be great to see the Neverwinter system be used for a Paranoia universe. It looks like we'd have a great game as it appears there are some excellent Troubleshooters on PC. For some reason, that makes me extraordinarily nervous. And by nervous, friend citizen, I mean Happy. Extraordinarily Happy. |
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Warren, it isn't as though people are living in an information vaccuum anymore. Go to Google, type in "bypass copy protection (insert name of any game here)" and tell us how long it takes you to get step-by-step instructions. It isn't like this stuff involves hex-editing. Not anymore. Joe Compaq can click URLs and follow simple instructions just as easily as anyone else. More easily, I suppose, he's not so uppity as to try and improvise in order to be l33t. The technical barriers have, for all practical purposes, fallen. The major source of stoppage now is the peoples' code of ethics... which, honestly, I believe to be stronger than any other form of protection. However, most "codes of ethics" among today's youth involves "defying Lord Vader," so, whatever. Developer, Publisher, Consumer, Government... who, generally speaking, is the "enemy" in the eyes of the average post-pubescent North American male? What's funny is, the last time we had the "giving them too much credit" discussion, you ended up conceding the point and admitting that the whole process has gotten very, very easy. So, what? Were you foolin' then? Or do you think that people have gotten stupider, and protection schemes have gotten better, in the last few months since then? I don't really think I like it any better than you do, but, it is what it is. #108 - Wow. Amazing. It never even occurred to me that the developers themselves are having that sales data withheld from them. That's total insanity. Is this the standard practice across the board, or is it only the small time (no offense, JP) developers who get the shaft like that? "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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#114 by Warren Marshall I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. Mayhaps, but that's assuming that everyone has to defeat the protection themself. Generally, out of a group of friends with computers, there's at least one (1) that has enough of the know-how (not that it takes much) to by-pass a simple safedisc protection. Considering these same friends also install most of the software, Joe Compaq or whatever the hell you call that generalization never knows there was protection in the first place. Heck, a lot of them probably don't even realize its illegal. "Dream of me... and maybe, just maybe, this nightmare will end."
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Mayhaps, but that's assuming that everyone has to defeat the protection themself. Generally, out of a group of friends with computers, there's at least one (1) that has enough of the know-how (not that it takes much) to by-pass a simple safedisc protection. You've way way over estimated was warren means by casual. Story time to tell you exactly the type of people he means here. Last christmas I was at my uncles place for a week while they where on vacation. While they where gone I desided to play their copy of AoE2, which wouldn't you know he took the CD with him. A simple stop by gamecopyworld of course fixes that little problem. I happened to be playing when they came back, after giving me a confused look he asked how I managed to get it working with out the CD. He never tried putting by pass copy protection into a search engine becuase he never even put any thought at all into why the CD was required to play the game. This out of what I'd consider a slightly above average user, that has no trouble finding and burning MP3's to a CD (heck he even programed a bit back in college, nothing big just a few classes). Here's the real kicker tho, his game collection has a real risk of getting larger then mine in a few months. |
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SCOTT MILLER: I'd like to congratulate you on your TTWO gains today. Every since you mentioned the stock, it's struggled. Yet today it went up 1.52%. I see the stock peaking out at $22 sometime in the next week, and then it will go right back down to $20 again. Paul A. Bullman, Board Certified Crapologist.
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I've been selling copies of JK2 out of the back of my truck all day, and all I've got to show for it is $510 at $10 a copy. You are making my being drunk at one in the afternoon a less pleasant experience.
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btw, Funkdrunk: smells like mutant in here all of a sudden. must be the new guy. Clone Funkd-R-unk 3 reporting for duty. I am not a MUTIE! Commie maybe, but not a mutie. it's been a while for you, hasn't it? come on, my gun shouldn't have cleared the holster after a softball like that one... "So, how do YOU know what a mutant smells like, citizen? TREASON!" *zzzzap* jafd: It never even occurred to me that the developers themselves are having that sales data withheld from them. um. i thought at first this was sarcasm, but with the follow-up, it really does look like you're not kidding. so, going on the premise that yes, you're actually serious, let's look at it from a publisher's point of view. you front devs, say, 4 million bucks to develop a title with the contract stating all their share of the income will go towards that 4 million first before they get paid. if you don't tell them--or anyone--how many units you're moving, when will the developers stop owing you money? when will they start actually earning profits on a hot title? uh, that'd be never. it's in a publisher's best interest to never disclose that information. capitalistically speaking, of course. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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oh, and so far, jk2 can kiss my ass. yay non-intuitive "puzzles"! whee! - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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jafd: Deadlock, I can't believe you just said that Q3 can be installed entirely to the HD, but Deus Ex couldn't be. The difference in installation footprints is less than 200MB, certain, likely much less. Are you of the opinion that DX was too long, as well? No, although I must confess that I have never finished it. Someone told me what the last mission is and, to be honest, I just couldn't face playing a mission that creates the illusion of difficulty by having enemies respawn over and over and over. Anyhoo, it's a while since I last installed Deus Ex; for some reaosn I thought that the max install in DE was everything but dialogue or something similar, requiring the CD to be in the drive at all times. Evidently not. I was going to point out that more and more games will have to be released on multiple disks or DVD to accomodate the increased size and scope of their assets (ie, better graphics hardware will mean larger, more detailed textures, more detailed levels etc.), but that's kinda redundant since hard drives are also getting bigger and bigger. you think you're funny ? I'll cut a hole in your head and piss through it...
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crash It's not non-intuitive, it's super-size obtuse. For those interested, Dungeon Siege is currently on the Donkey with an all-time high availability of 12. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that it fits in nicely with the theme of the topic. You are making my being drunk at one in the afternoon a less pleasant experience.
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No, although I must confess that I have never finished it. Someone told me what the last mission is and, to be honest, I just couldn't face playing a mission that creates the illusion of difficulty by having enemies respawn over and over and over. They must have made it sound much worse then it acctauly is. Two of the endings are possible to get with out killing the respawning enemies (it helps to get a little helper for the middle floor). That and you can prevent the respawning by shutting the UC doors (the bottom floor is a pain, bit easyer with a GEP or LAW to help with getting to the the UC door controls but still a pain). Granted they may not have known about closing the UC doors off since they can be hard to spot if your trying to kill every thing on the level or just running like hell the whole time. |
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crash it's been a while for you, hasn't it? come on, my gun shouldn't have cleared the holster after a softball like that one... "So, how do YOU know what a mutant smells like, citizen? TREASON!" *zzzzap* Nope. Clones don't remember what the other clone went through. So, one of the other troubleshooters should have yelled that out, and blasted you. My next clone wouldn't know. However, me - the player - would, and would be looking for my first chance at revenge. Funk. |
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which is becoming oddly common of late, as Bridge commander does the same thing; neither requires a code or uses Safedisc. Why 50 dollar games would not use Safedisc at least, while 20 dollar games like Serious Sam do, befuddles me. Well, it might be that Safedisc, and particularly Safedisc II, causes technical problems with some people's CD_ROM drives. SimGolf has SafediscII and I cannot play the game because when the drive tries to read the disc, it hangs the computer. MOH has the same thing, or something similar, because it does the same thing. |
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warren: I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. I wouldn't stick to that idea too long anymore. Sure, yo grandpops (figuratively speaking of course, wouldn't wanna insult your grandfather) can't do all that stuff, but nowadays... everyone grows up with computers and everyone knows how to operate them. So it's not much of a deal for anyone to aqcuire a certain cd burning software package (or warez it) which bypasses safedisc, and use it. As a point: today there was an article a Dutch newspaper about a cd-store closing its doors because it got into the red marks. There was an interview with the storekeeper and he said he went to the bank to get a loan, but the account manager at the bank told him: "CD's, sir? I burn those myself at home." There you go. "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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Warren: I've gone over this before, but you're giving the casual person SafeDisc is meant to stop, WAY too much credit. WAAAAY too much. Nope, not anymore. Gamecopyworld will tell you exactly what you need to do, and the traffic they get is WAY more then just the hardcore. But you miss the point. It doesn't matter. Because in the age of P2P, all you need is 1 working copy in the wild. Copy protection is irrelevent. Which is why the record companies getting into the copy protection game is really stupid. It pisses people off, and you STILL will have tunes in the wild. You also miss that most computers that joe casual buys today can defeat even safedisc2. HP's are great for that, Sony's not so much so. Lite-On makes the internal CDRW components to many, drives, made by Cendyne, BUSlink, Pacific Digital, Digital Research. Every one one of those uses the same drive, same firmware, etc, and defeat all copy protections. No special settings, just Clone CD (about the most warezed program out there), which will usually crack safedisc with zero input from the user. Those drives are damn cheap too, we ain't talking Plextor prices. CD Mate is darn near as easy. CDRWin will do it now. Not saying everyone is doing it, but you need to realize it certainly isn't just the hardcore geeks that have figured this out. There are some really dumb people out there cracking safedisc two - or downloading someone elses crack on Kaaza. Common post in CDR forums, "Hi, I just got a computer with a CDR Drive. What's a good program for backing up Max Payne?" Plus, the beginings of the backlash - cause by the RIAA really - is really motivating people to learn about this stuff. Mostly because you alway made a tape of an album/CD for the car, everyone made a copy for their brother, etc. Ain't a big deal. So unlike with games, people have an expectation to be able to copy their music as they like - and they won't let that go easily. Naturally, this will lead to learning about game protection schemes. Frankly, you guys have limited time. The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
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um, pretend all that is typed correctly. The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
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none-1a: Cheers, I've been thinking about dusting off Deus Ex, because up to the point that I had played it, it was excellent (just arrived in Paris, IIRC). You've restored my faith in mankind! If only you could do something for my faith in woman... you think you're funny ? I'll cut a hole in your head and piss through it...
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#126 deadlock No, although I must confess that I have never finished <Deus Ex>. Someone told me what the last mission is and, to be honest, I just couldn't face playing a mission that creates the illusion of difficulty by having enemies respawn over and over and over. the difficulty of the last mission doesn't come from the respawning enemies at all. the devices that spawn the enemies can be shut down in several ways anyway. if you approach deus ex like a standard FPS, you won't get anything more out of it than that. combat is not the game's central challenge - especially not by the end of the game, when you're a nano-augmented god among men - it's decision making. oh, and whoever said the hong kong levels were the worst in the game has been freebasing meow mix. that series of levels represents some of the best mission design and execution of a semi-persistent world EVAR. |
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jafd The technical barriers have, for all practical purposes, fallen. I think that's an illusion. Computers are still intimidating to a great number of people. Computers still require a certain level of knowledge to get running properly, and finding stuff on the web requires patience and knowledge of what to click and what NOT to click. A n00b trying to find a CD crack on the web will quickly find himself hip deep in porn pop ups. Even if they DO find the file, they have to download it and unzip it ... .. "unzip"? I'm serious. Don't overestimate people. Your circle of friends, and people you know on the side, do NOT represent Joe Compaq. LPMiller Frankly, you guys have limited time. Heh. Not really. Existing copy protection is there because it stops most people. When it stops doing that, it'll be replaced by something else that stops the majority of the new generation. It isn't like SafeDisc is the final solution. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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I GM'ed Paranoia back in the days and had tons of fun with it. I've lost most of the rules for it now though so it's hard getting back into the swing. Perhaps they're on the Donkey... We never really needed a mission though as pretty much everyone died before they got very far. My younger brother GM'ed it for a while and he wasn't as evil as I was so his players actually got a chance to mess with the Mark IV warbot. They didn't get much further than that though. 8) -- Martin
Hunkalicious since 1972! |
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Well, it might be that Safedisc, and particularly Safedisc II, causes technical problems with some people's CD_ROM drives. SimGolf has SafediscII and I cannot play the game because when the drive tries to read the disc, it hangs the computer. MOH has the same thing, or something similar, because it does the same thing. I couldn't believe someone hadn't heard of gamecopyworld, but when my friend had this same problem with SimGolf (but not MOHAA, weird) I emailed him a no cd patch and he thought I was a freking genius. I've never used one for for games i don't have, but it sure comes in handy for some of that copy protection thats seems intent on stopping you from playing the game you bought. |
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jjohnson, I'm not being snarky here at all, but what's your definition of "someone" when you say someone hadn't heard of gamecopyworld? Honestly? I've never heard of it before today. And no one in the building I work in has heard of it, I guarantee, even though I know a good chunk of console and PC gamers are there. None of my local circle of gaming friends has heard of it, I'm absolutely sure. |
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someone is a friend that has been PC gaming for four to five years, buys 10-12 games a year and buily his own computer. |
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sorry buily = built |
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Yeah, by that standard I think the site is more obscure than folks think it is. |
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Even if they DO find the file, they have to download it and unzip it ... .. "unzip"? Which XP has all but eliminated in its representation of .zip files as Folders. |
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And of course, everyone has XP installed so my point is moot. Oh wait ... I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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Yes. |
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w-t-f-E Go to Google, type in "copy games", *BAM*: GameWhoreWorld is numero uno. If you're talking about people on the web who haven't heard of Google yet, yeah, sure, finding a crack and applying it is going to be difficult for them. Here's the rub: is the rate at which people are using the first time, faster or slower than the rate at which people are discovering Google? Even if the former is faster than the later... it's a finite matter. Eventually, the rate at which computers penetrate the market will slow to zero, because they really will have permeated the existence of every single human being on the planet. Even if worldwide population growth is greater than worldwide acceptance of Googling, that cannot last forever. Copy protection is a social and psychological issue. Not a techinical one. I wonder if publishers will discover this before they completely run themselves out of business? It's an interesting horserace to watch, that's for sure. "JWITIWO... TPMBI!"
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jesus Warren, my mother knows enough to use winzip. My mother, who actually used the cd tray to hold her coffee. We may set joe average too high, but you set it way too low. The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
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Fine. You're all correct. Everyone knows how to find cracks and warez games. My bad. I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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If games were actually good, maybe more people would think they would be worth whatever they cost right now? I get more entertainment out of a music CD (which already is too expensive) than a game for up to thrice the money. Play it once (if you can even muster the strength to finish it) then throw it away. |
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You don't know how much mom pays for your games, but you're sure it's too much. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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One of these days Warren is going to start posting here under an alt-identity to find out if you guys oppose his views just because he's teh Marshall. You are making my being drunk at one in the afternoon a less pleasant experience.
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Copy protection is a social and psychological issue. Not a techinical one. I wonder if publishers will discover this before they completely run themselves out of business? It's an interesting horserace to watch, that's for sure. So how do you convince people that your product is worth buying instead of stealing? I get more entertainment out of a music CD (which already is too expensive) than a game for up to thrice the money. Play it once (if you can even muster the strength to finish it) then throw it away. I can't think of a music cd I have bought in the past year that I even like more than half the songs. I think this is one of the many reasons people burn mp3's instead of buying cd's. They can't stand paying $16.00 for a cd that is mostly filler for the bands one or two singles. |
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Y tú mama también! |
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jjohnsen: the big question is, why do you keep buying crap CDs you don't like? :P |
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Copy protection is a social and psychological issue. And why has stealing become something people can justify so easily? Is it because it is so simple to get, not like having to hide it under your jacket while you run out the door. |
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#154 I guess I've never had the time to listen to a forty minute cd at the store before I buy. And music reviewers are like the musical elite. It feels like they are telling you they like something just to prove how much they know about music. |
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#156, Yes, music journalists are the spawn of the devil. "Music journalists are people who can't write who write about people who can't play for people who can't read." — Frank Zappa Of course, all this feels weird to me because I don't listen to music that gets reviewed by music journalists, and they mostly make only good songs with at most one exception per CD. Of course, lots of research goes into it...getting sound samples from the Internet, downloading full albums to check them out, and then buying them when I get the monetary funds to do so. But I'm a music lover, so I guess I don't understand game lovers... |
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Inside If games were actually good, maybe more people would think they would be worth whatever they cost right now? I get more entertainment out of a music CD (which already is too expensive) than a game for up to thrice the money. Play it once (if you can even muster the strength to finish it) then throw it away. Is there anything that you think IS worth the money? So far we've ruled out games and music ... I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
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Great Googalie moogalie - The Late Great Frank Zappa I can totallly agree with that. .....Yet Another 0l$en Twin Approved +12 Post!
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But I'm a music lover, so I guess I don't understand game lovers... What!!! You mean spending time at the Crap hasn't helped you understand game lovers? We're the most normal people around. |
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#158: Music is expensive, but still sort of worth it...it just pains my soul having to shell out 20 bucks on a CD. :\ |
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But I still do it. |
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Fine. You're all correct. Everyone knows how to find cracks and warez games. My bad Oh stop that. No one is riding you. And no one said everyone. SOME of us are saying it's more common, and easier to figure out, then you are saying. I don't see what's so offensive about that. Personal experience as desktop support, as the neighborhood geek, and as a guy who reviews CDRW's and gets a lot of emails on CDRW's tells me it is so. Information spreads. One of these days Warren is going to start posting here under an alt-identity to find out if you guys oppose his views just because he's teh Marshall. No, and 'oppose' implies it's some sort of battle. I did get a little peeved about the winzip thing - cripes, I just spent 6 months going through 6,000 machines for Win2K conversion. Everyone had winzip, everyone knows how to use it. Support calls at my company regarding winzip = almost zero, unless the files are corrupt. Ok, look: my brother in law gave me a copy of Max payne for xmas. A Copy on CDR. Ok, I already owned the damn thing, plus I have copies all over the place from testing out drives, so it was kinda funny. But he doesn't know how to install a drive - Best buy installed his new CDRW. He doesn't reformat, rarely thinks to upgrade drivers, nothing. Yet he made a working copy of Max Payne - which uses almost the most current version of Safedisc2. If he could do it - and believe me, the man is an idiot, a cad, and a gym teacher - doesn't that say maybe something is going on out there? Over a million people are on Kazza at any one time. Not a great big warez area, but you can find most things. You don't even have to know what a bin or iso file is, if you have Easy CD installed - double click and burn. It's sad how easy it is. Copy protections like Safedisc and Laserlock are a waste of time. I think auth servers are pretty much the last hope, because that one thing Joe Casual won't do is suddenly learn how to hack. The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
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