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Pressure Valve
May 24th 2000, 09:12 CEST by andy Valve has long been regarded as the most respectable of the FPS companies, but some recent events have cast a shadow on that image. The latest controversy looks set to not just turn people away from the company, but may raise questions about its long-term commitment to mod developers. When Valve decided to invest in the Counter-Strike mod and make it an official Half-Life add-on, there were mumbles of discontent in the community. The decision was widely seen as a positive move to support a few dedicated mod authors, but some people saw it as a kick in the teeth to those working on other popular projects. The next Half-Life patch is expected soon, and then an upgrade is likely to be released which will include Counter-Strike. To be compatible with the new version of the game, mods must be upgraded using v2.0 of the Half-Life development kit. For the Action Half-Life mod, and possibly several others, this signals the end of the road. Because the new development kit no longer supports a feature known as "hull type 3", which is needed for some Action Half-Life features, the mod can only be compiled with the old development kit and will therefore not be compatible with the upgraded game. Even if fans of Action Half-Life choose not to upgrade so they can continue playing the mod, old clients may not be compatible with the WON registration system that is required to play. Some fans of Action Half-Life see this as an act of sabotage by Valve, believing that the company wants to cut down the number of available mods so that Counter-Strike can become the dominant add-on. Even if support for "hull type 3" is later re-implemented, it will likely be too late for other mods to gain much of a following. Action Half-Life is one of the most established Half-Life mods, having been around since shortly after the game was released. The current version was released as a third beta, with one more patch expected before the v1.0 release. According to Ryan Roper, the Action Half-Life team manager, the mod does not likely have any future unless "hull type 3" support is added to the latest development kit. Valve has said that it will look into the problem but has given no estimate of when support could be made available, if at all. The company often takes several months to release patches. |
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Topic: Pressure Valve
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<quote>I'd like to think that PlanetCrap is the exception. I'm not the only somewhat public person that posts here, and if we can't be completely free to say whatever we want without reprocussion against our day jobs, we'll all stop posting, and nobody wants that. </quote> If the 'Crap were private and required a login, you might be able to make that argument. But sorry, no public messageboard is an exception. That's just the way it is... But people really want that to be a selective thing. If we're talking about website traffic, you're the guy from Blue's News so you are an expert on the subject. But here you're just shootin' the shit. How are people reading supposed to distinguish between the two? |
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<b>#91</b> "RzE" wrote... <QUOTE> Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. </QUOTE> I don't agree with the earlier (tongue-in-cheek?) statement that CS players are morons, but I'm willing to say that anybody who feels that they are an authority to decide the definition of "true gamer", probably <I>is</I>.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. </quote> Shit. Those formative years with my beloved Atari 800... all of those years editing a gaming magazine... the thousands of articles... I thought I just didn't particularly care for team-based multiplayer games, but it turns out that because of this horrid aberration I'm not a gamer. I'm going to go sulk in a corner, next to my copy of Daikatana. |
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Actually, Counterstrike is not he only "offical Valve mod", Valve has been giving financial grants to several mod teams. they have also announced that they will be selling some mods in stores, possible packaged together as part of a mod pack. Way back when the Gunman mod was a quakeII mod, the team was about to fall aprt and the project scrapped. The team just did not have the time or money to finish this in their spare time. Valve took us under their wing and told us they would help out any way they could. They gave us code, advice, and money to buy new equipment and to pay our bills. Its been about a year and a half since we started our relationship with Valve, and they have given us the chance to create some of the best creative content we have ever done in our lives. We've been able to go to E3, video game press confrences, GDC's all because of the help valve has given us. My dreams, and the dreams of my teammates of being a part of the proffessional video game industry seem so much closer to being realized than before Valve contacted us. Because of the contact i've had with Valve, i do not believe that they would ever intentially (or unintentionaly but knowingly) sabotoge the mod community. They have nothing but love ;) . The release of the SDK2 is a major HELP to all mods out there, and something that many of us have been asking for for a long time. Valve even decided to allow some mods to have the beta of the SDK2 because they knew there would be some small compatibility issues and it might take some time to fix them. But, they all CAN be fixed. Action Half-Life will not become a dead mod, because of the absence of "hull type 3". They will figure out how to use the replacement for this feature, or find another way to implement this feature. In video game programming, there seems to be rarely only one approach to solving a problem. In conclusion, i think the Valve should be praised for their dedicated support to the mod community, both in general and to specific mods. There is no other company out there today who would take the risk to financially support teams like Gunman and Counterstrike with absolutely no guarantee on any return. -ilian |
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One thing i want to point out is that i have no data or knowledge about using Hull type 3 in the SDK2, so my statment made abotu it in my previous post could be erroneous. However, i firmly believe an answer CAN be found. While porting Gunman to SDK2 we had some problems which, at first, we believed would be impossible to fix, but after some creativity, and sometimes a little guidance from valve, the solutions were solved. -ilian |
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<b>#97</b> "ilian" wrote... <QUOTE>While porting Gunman to SDK2 we had some problems which, at first, we believed would be impossible to fix, but after some creativity, and sometimes a little guidance from valve, the solutions were solved.</QUOTE> Maybe instead of saying it is an impossible problem, the gang on the Action Half-life team should try asking Valve what they could do. I see no problem in that, or a reason why Valve shouldn't help. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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:P I recant that true gamer statement |
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<b>#91</b> "RzE" wrote... <QUOTE>Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. </QUOTE> Do I have to like it? :) -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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We have been talking with Valve about the problem, as have many people on the HL Development list. The answer we have gotten from valve is, You can't do it, but we might put it in the SDK update. I just hope thats sooner than later, I know valve WILL do it. The question is, when, and can Action Half-life stand to wait? We have been working with Valve, the Sabaneta 2050 team, and some others trying to find a way around this problem. It's not like we haven't tried. |
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Wonder if this is why Gooseman and Cliffe resisted the 'prone' position for CS ....... Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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No one from the FireArms Mod has complained about the new SDK messing up their prone code. Now, either FireArms hasn't been tested with the new SDK (which would be beyond stupid) or FireArms' "prone" method works with the new SDK. Perhaps the Action team should make contact with them to discuss.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Ive been in contact with many of the other mod teams that use Prone and diving. None of them have really gotten to porting the movement code except for the Sabeneta 2050 team, and us. I still need to talk with Nighthawk(opera) and the actual coder for Firearms, I only talked to a team member last night. |
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Lactius, arent the hitboxes put in the FGD? You would have to recompile, (entity update...?) but it sounds fixable and not such a big deal. I wonder why valve took out your hull type 3 (i need to look over my SDK some more...). |
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It isnt so much the hitboxes, thats a bad word to use, Its the box that Halflife uses for hit detection, and for player prediction. |
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"HL networking sucks! Give us new netcode or else!" "Screw AHL??! How dare you! You suck!" Can you say "damned if they do.. damned if they don't"? |
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Well, this post is very interesting. I was directed here from csnation.counter-strike.net so, right from the start, I want all of you to know that i'm a counter-strike fan. hardcore. I just wanted to state that what you people have said and debated over was right and true, but you must understand one thing - counter-strike is a better mod; counter-strike's gameplay is fun, guns are great, its very stable, easy to use, the buying system is so cool its not even funny, and it look like a GOOD game - it has the feel of a complete, fun, interesting, appealing, glamorous game. I've played FireArms Mod and i've played AHL, and I must say that they just dont seem as real... they do not seem like full games. I believe that it would be safe to say that Counter-Strike should be considered a GAME rather than a MOD. It is a great game and it already has many fans - why not adopt it? I mean, its a profitable oppurtinity! (well, maybe not profitible in the money-sense, but its a smart thing to do). I would do the same thing if I were in Valve's position. As a matter of fact, I would do more. So, to sum it up, counter-strike is simply a better game. -Sauron (OnE) |
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<quote>Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. ... I'm going to go sulk in a corner, next to my copy of Daikatana. </quote> Amen to that! Haven't d/l, looked at, or played CS and have absolutely no desire to, either. The simple idea that I could die, and then have to sit and <i>wait</i> for everyone else to die/finish so that I can get back in the game really turns me off from the start. That and the simple fact that I don't get this whole realism kick in shooter games. I prefer the over-the-top, completely unrealistic style of game like Quake 2 or, god forbid I say it, Shogo (damn cool game, btw). btw, after the first 2 hours of Daikatana I don't get what everybody is bitching about. It's a fun game, dammit! |
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Clearly if Counter-Strike needed "hull type 3" valve wouldn't be "maybe fixing it in a later patch". I would suggest to the AHL team, just abandon half-life and concentrate on the Unreal Tournament port. Better to be a big fish in a small pond. and loonyboi <QUOTE>Don't be silly. This is not an objective forum, and if I want to talk out of my ass, i'm perfectly allowed to. :)</QUOTE> Here is some talk out of my ass for you: why don't you spend the time your wasting here at planetcrap updating loonygames? Not updating since March without even an explanation just makes you look like a lazy drunk. If you ARE a lazy drunk, please disregard my comments. |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<b>#110</b> "Illbuddha" wrote... <QUOTE>...just makes you look like a lazy drunk. If you ARE a lazy drunk, please disregard my comments</QUOTE> rofl, thats the funniest thing ive read all day.. (no offense loonyboi) -ilian |
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<quote>Lacutis wrote.... "it is commmon knowledge that the Counterstrike team is getting money from valve." It is also common knowledge (or is it?) that the A-Team is getting money from Epic for doing AUT. Come on, let's put the whole story out, so CS doesn't come out looking like the "bad guys." |
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<quote>Not updating since March</quote> You mean Loonygames isn't still on Summer hiatus? |
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<quote>I just wanted to state that what you people have said and debated over was right and true, but you must understand one thing - counter-strike is a better mod; counter-strike's gameplay is fun, guns are great, its very stable, easy to use, the buying system is so cool its not even funny, and it look like a GOOD game - it has the feel of a complete, fun, interesting, appealing, glamorous game. I've played FireArms Mod and i've played AHL, and I must say that they just dont seem as real... they do not seem like full games. </quote> Ummmm, sorry but, Since when is a mod themed after Honk Kong Action movies supposed to be realistic? It's not! :) If you come to Action looking for a realistic Rainbow 6 shooter, you knocked on the wrong door. I'd go so far as to say that AHL and CS arent even in the same genre. |
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I replaced the C4 models in counter-strike with copies of <I>John Romeros: Diakatana!</I> Dont you just love it how he and his girlish figure are mentioned as if it was something to be proud of. For all the developement (like a decade wasn't it?) you'd think he would have turned out a game that didn't suck until you could suck no more. <I> Back on subject though</I> I think what Valve is doing is very creative and good for the CS team, and very half-assed for the AHL team. I played AHL and I honestly got bored doing it, but if id Could get off their fat asses and sponser a few mods like Valve, Q3A could possibly be a kikass game, unfortunately, all they <QUOTE>Utilized</QUOTE> was CTF and I got better ping/frames playing the Q2 version anyways (and the maps were better too). I say id has basically dumped its fans with a kickass engine that has <B>NO</B> game behind it. And frankly that sucks. The Q3A engine is vastly superior to any other game out there, the netcode is unbelievable yet, where the hell are they now? Those bastards are gonna try to SELL me mods! WTF! Why should i be forced to buy mods from id when valve is giving me them for free, at least valve is more concerned about earning a reputation other than how much human feces they can make me eat while saying <QUOTE><I>mmm... thats tasty id! May I have some more???"</QUOTE></I> |
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<QUOTE> ..Lacutis wrote.... "it is commmon knowledge that the Counterstrike team is getting money from valve." </QUOTE> It is also common knowledge (or is it?) that the A-Team is getting money from Epic for doing AUT. Come on, let's put the whole story out, so CS doesn't come out looking like the "bad guys." |
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I am in no way saying that Counterstrike is the "bad guys" I think that the Counterstrike team has done a great job, and I afford them NO ill will. But since you brought it up, No, the A-Team hasn't recieved a penny from Epic. There might be that possibility later, but for now, we arent being paid. Actually there is nothing that would make me happier then that. |
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Actually, let me correct that, They did give Oddjob a copy of Max. So I guess that does count for something. And they offer us support like I've never seen. We send them an email and usually have a reply in 30 secs to an hour, even on weekends. |
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Well Lacutis, rejoice in the fact that you will indeed get paid by Epic. Understandable that you haven't gotten anything yet since it's not out. But we talked with Mark Rein about the subject a while ago and you won't go unpaid. But I don't see why you would mention payment in the first place if there's "nothing that makes you happier." How is it relevent? |
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<quote>Clearly if Counter-Strike needed "hull type 3" valve wouldn't be "maybe fixing it in a later patch".</quote> Very, very good point. |
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Epic pays mod authors??? |
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Im not sure I understand your question. I meant, Making games for money, nothing would make me happier then that. |
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<b>#110</b> "Illbuddha" wrote... <QUOTE> If you ARE a lazy drunk, please disregard my comments. </QUOTE> Consider them disregarded. :) -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<QUOTE>Consider them disregarded. :)</QUOTE> That's what I thought. Well, it takes one to know one. :] |
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<b>#108</b> "OnE" wrote... <QUOTE>I just wanted to state that what you people have said and debated over was right and true, but you must understand one thing - counter-strike is a better mod; </QUOTE> --- Snip --- <QUOTE> So, to sum it up, counter-strike is simply a better game. -Sauron (OnE) </QUOTE> I'm not really sure how your prefference in mod's is really pertinant to the discussion going on. And if the situation was reversed? (-)Ions <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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i think One is right i mean if i knew about CS before i bought HL i would never play tha SP game (well OF was good Single) Counter Strike should Be considered 1 of tha best multi player Games EVER P.S. Does any 1 know about tha release date of Beta 6.5? |
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<b>I LIEK <U>CHIKUN</U></B> |
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Well judgeing by lil rizzah's interpretation of a true gamer, I am one. I have been playing CS and AHL since the day they were born. I'm not going to go into the lengthy explanation of why I think CS is better, but I am going to say that the CS team deserve to be paid handsomely for their efforts. Ever since day one most of us CS players have offered to send money to the CS team because we were so happy with the job they had done, and now I'm just glad they finally are getting the financial recognition. It's this fighting and finger pointing internally in the mod community that holds mods back, not the so called "monopoly" that CS is holding. And it sure isnt favouritism by Valve, Valve have been nothing but supportive over the years - admitedly its in their best interest, but nevertheless they have done more for the mod community than any other game developer IMO. I'm just sick of seeing the CS team cop crap from other mod makers or just simpleton gamers because they feel the CS team is destroying their chances to make a good mod... boohoo, if you make a good mod then people will play it. It's not the CS teams fault. (This is not directed at AHL team) |
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<quote>boohoo, if you make a good mod then people will play it.</quote> Is that really true? If you sat down and made a mod that was as good as Counter-Strike, and released it tomorrow, would anyone stop playing Counter-Strike and play it? I don't know ... |
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I think they would, from all the gamers I know, if a good game is found then we play it, its simple. Say for example AHL had the monopoly, with 90% of HL gamers playing it, and CS came out now... I think it might take a while but CS would surely make its way to the top. |
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<B>ROFL...up in arms over changes? Grand conspiracy to limit other mods?<B>...you people crack me up. I wish my life was so perfect that I had nothing else to do but bitch about designers and artists changing their own work. Come on people, no-one has been purposely slighted. Not one person here has posted a believable reason for Valve to slight some mod makers and favor C-S (on purpose). None. A lot of supposition is going on, but only by those not in the know. And the supposition doesn't even make sense. That's the funny part. Learn to look at all possible causes before you judge and convict. For starters, you'll be happier, and more often correct. Contradiction is not a valid form of an argument. It's only stating the negative or opposite and acting like it's a great revelation. Scenario: I start a business, make a product, and change it to piss-off (on purpose mind you) a group of people who (for free) give new players a reason to purchase my product. Hmmm...I think not. And even in this, you don't know why the choice to effect this change was made. And what it prevented or fixed, vs. what harm it may have caused by not doing it. I've worked in Information Systems and program design for 15 years. This type of thing happens all the time. Usually by our friends at IBM, MS or CA, but it's nothing new. Progress costs. Custom designs placed on third-party software, even when encouraged, are the responsibility of the programmers who made the changes. All caveats are stated and understood. Yes this is the correct way to run a business. No, not everyone will like it. Yes, it means a lot of work for some, others maybe not so much. No it isn't exactly fair. But, BFD, nothing is fair to the extent that all can be happy. -Now get back to playing these cool mods and STFU. |
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Action Half-life team: Just port your code over to UT or Quake3. It will be new and different. Counter-Strike owns Half Life. Nothing owns Quake3 or UT. You can't beat them, so leave them. |
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<b>#133</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <QUOTE>Is that really true? If you sat down and made a mod that was as good as Counter-Strike, and released it tomorrow, would anyone stop playing Counter-Strike and play it? I don't know ... </QUOTE> Yes, it is true. When CS came out, everyone was playing TFC, TFC was the big thing, tfc sound packs and Radium tfc news and news pages dedicated to TFC. Then CS gathered a small following and slowly built up steam until it was the huge success it was today. This could happen again. People like new and better games. Also, there is a severe lacking of other kinds of mods. How about co-op single player? or just single player? How about sci-fi teamplay (ala UT). Half-Life doesnt have these. How about a BETTER realism based teamplay mod? If one was created, people WOULD play it. -ilian |
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CS Has become THE mod. for HL. Just take a look at the server list. Get over it. /me slaps all with large smelly rotten fishes |
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Mr_Grim is the current Head Coder for AHL. Im currently the Head Coder on Action Unreal Tournament. We have already been in development... |
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What if someone came out with a multiplayer mod, that was a sci-fi scene, incorpated a unique scoring/goals system, had great teamplay, and had player controlled vehicles. People WOULD play this. and, yes, contrary to popular belief, player controlled vehicles are possible with the Half-Life SDK. Cs does not have a "monopoly" on Half-Life multiplayer. There is soo much more that can and will be done. If a game has a unique idea, and is a GOOD game, and is available, it will be played. (D&D universe, Hong Kong Blood Opera, Sci Fi).. It just has to be seen if a mod with an idea will reach a certain level of quality that meets or surpasses Counterstrike. And i DO think people out there have that kind of talent. 90% of the mods i see out there though, are NOT original, and are just boring, buggy, half-completed, and copies of other mods. All the weapons are insta-hit "bullet" weapons. This aint always a bad thing (AHL, Counterstrike use only these weapons + melee weapon i think), but there is sooo much more that people can do.. -ilian |
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actually Weapons Factory Arena _0wns_ Quake 3 :) fun fun fun fun :) Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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My thoughts exactly. But I swear I'm getting tired of ports to UT of Quake mods. And how many TF clones are there? Theere is even SoF TF. Pete<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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