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Pressure Valve
May 24th 2000, 09:12 CEST by andy Valve has long been regarded as the most respectable of the FPS companies, but some recent events have cast a shadow on that image. The latest controversy looks set to not just turn people away from the company, but may raise questions about its long-term commitment to mod developers. When Valve decided to invest in the Counter-Strike mod and make it an official Half-Life add-on, there were mumbles of discontent in the community. The decision was widely seen as a positive move to support a few dedicated mod authors, but some people saw it as a kick in the teeth to those working on other popular projects. The next Half-Life patch is expected soon, and then an upgrade is likely to be released which will include Counter-Strike. To be compatible with the new version of the game, mods must be upgraded using v2.0 of the Half-Life development kit. For the Action Half-Life mod, and possibly several others, this signals the end of the road. Because the new development kit no longer supports a feature known as "hull type 3", which is needed for some Action Half-Life features, the mod can only be compiled with the old development kit and will therefore not be compatible with the upgraded game. Even if fans of Action Half-Life choose not to upgrade so they can continue playing the mod, old clients may not be compatible with the WON registration system that is required to play. Some fans of Action Half-Life see this as an act of sabotage by Valve, believing that the company wants to cut down the number of available mods so that Counter-Strike can become the dominant add-on. Even if support for "hull type 3" is later re-implemented, it will likely be too late for other mods to gain much of a following. Action Half-Life is one of the most established Half-Life mods, having been around since shortly after the game was released. The current version was released as a third beta, with one more patch expected before the v1.0 release. According to Ryan Roper, the Action Half-Life team manager, the mod does not likely have any future unless "hull type 3" support is added to the latest development kit. Valve has said that it will look into the problem but has given no estimate of when support could be made available, if at all. The company often takes several months to release patches. |
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Topic: Pressure Valve
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<QUOTE> As to Userhull 3. Valve didnt remove it as much as they hardcoded the value's and made them unable to be changed. Even if we can get around that, the use of a different hull requires the recompilation of the maps, as that information is stored in them. (regarding the hull's) </QUOTE> Lactius, i know my half life mapping, but i completely fail to understand why a map would need to be re-compiled to deal with a new model system. It doesnt really 'click' with me. If you wouldnt mind, could you explain exactly why that is? |
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Why would they change it, though? There must be a reason. |
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<quote>Don't be silly. This is not an objective forum, and if I want to talk out of my ass, i'm perfectly allowed to. :) </quote> Bzzt. Wrong. Guess what? As soon as you became a public figure, you pretty much gave up your ability to just "shoot the shit" about games in a casual manner. Because no matter how much you qualify your statements, no matter where the conversation takes place, you're the guy from Blue's News. When someone reads your message, they don't think, "Hey, there's some dude posting." No, it's, "Hey, there some dude from Blue's posting." Everything you say, in theory, has more credibility because it's backed by your work on that site. Should it be like this? No, but welcome to the wonderful world of (however minor) celebrity, where everything you say can (and will) be used against you in the court of public perception... |
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Ok... The reason the maps have to be compiled is because the hull information is compiled into the map for prediction purposes. It needs to know the dimensions so it can accurately do the prediction in the map. From an email explaining the result: On a normal map : Everything is fine until you try to go prone, at which point it crashes (hw.dll). On a map compiled with the new hulls : - You walk around partially in the ground. - If you go prone, it crashes (hw.dll again) |
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<b>#78</b> "Lacutis" wrote... <QUOTE>Yeah, you are wrong in saying that. I do program for a living. Grim doesnt do it for a living, but he's been doing it long enough to know what he is doing. In fact almost all of the people who work on Action are professional's in their respective fields. </QUOTE> Well, then I stand corrected. <QUOTE>As to Userhull 3. Valve didnt remove it as much as they hardcoded the value's and made them unable to be changed. Even if we can get around that, the use of a different hull requires the recompilation of the maps, as that information is stored in them. (regarding the hull's) </QUOTE> So why can't you recompile the maps? (Admittedly, I know nothing about this) -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#82 ... - If you go prone, it crashes (hw.dll again) </QUOTE> Wow. That does sound like a doozy. Still, is Andy right - are you guys actually blaming Valve for their support of Counter-Strike, and thus for this - problem - with the SDK? I mean, it's sad it had to happen, but I'm sure there's SOME way around it if you guys work on it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#81</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>Bzzt. Wrong. Guess what? As soon as you became a public figure, you pretty much gave up your ability to just "shoot the shit" about games in a casual manner. Because no matter how much you qualify your statements, no matter where the conversation takes place, you're the guy from Blue's News. </QUOTE> I'd like to think that PlanetCrap is the exception. I'm not the only somewhat public person that posts here, and if we can't be completely free to say whatever we want without reprocussion against our day jobs, we'll all stop posting, and nobody wants that. -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Ill have to back up loonyboi, I was a little harsh, but I still think that he was uninformed. We can recompile the maps, but like I just said, we have to take out all proning and dives or else it crashes instantly. And the A-Team NEVER blamed Valve for their support of CS. I personally don't blame them. However I do think that something like this that other mods use should have been fixed before the release rather then putting it off on some patch in the future. The A-Team has a great relationship with gooseman, after all he is a former member. |
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<b>#86</b> "Lacutis" wrote... <QUOTE>The A-Team has a great relationship with gooseman, after all he is a former member.</QUOTE> Oh hell.. now the plot is going to thicken and it's time for all the conspiracy posts to come up! -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<quote>... all the conspiracy posts to come up!</quote> You ever notice that if you try to go to www.actionhalflife.com it forwards you to counter-strike? Heh. |
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this kind of kills Fireteam as well .. as they have 'proning' as a feature. Action quake was fun Action Half life Beta 1 .. was horrible, not as iffy as Fireteams but just not all that. In honesty it gave the impression of 'Hey look we're better than Counter Strike' whilst failing to capture or exceed the charm or playability of its forebearer or CS. Ive played Cs since Beta 1 and am amazed at the progress theyve made and the sheer _quality_ of the mod. I would say keep a close eye on Gooseman n Cliffe, I suspect theyre going to be hired, quite possibly by Valve to make Counter Strike 2 a commercial release along the lines of Swat 3 or Rogue Spear (ie offline play vs Bots) question as to the hull 3, why cant you simply alter the calculation of the hull intersection ? if removing it means you start in the ground, bias the calculation so it doesnt put you in the ground. Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Theres no way to bias the calculation so it doesnt start you in the ground, If you modify the default hull values, it crashes halflife when you try to use the user defined one. As far as counterstrike, Its a nice mod, clean, simple etc. I also don't want to start anything against them, but it is commmon knowledge that the Counterstrike team is getting money from valve, and that a professional software company recoded the mod at least once. |
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CS is being treated special, because it is.. It has more players almost 24/7 than anyother game, and in most cases, CS still beats the #2 and #3 games combine. Valve made a business decision, that in the end, keeps CS alive. Gooseman cannot work on CS for no money, he just got out of college.. Chances are, without Valve, in 6 months CS would be done and Gooseman would be working at Epic or something. <quote>Some fans of Action Half-Life see this as an act of sabotage by Valve, believing that the company wants to cut down the number of available mods so that Counter-Strike can become the dominant add-on. Even if support for "hull type 3" is later re-implemented, it will likely be too late for other mods to gain much of a following.</quote> I'm glad to see that you've posted some people's opinions, andy, but that is totally untrue. Valve does not benefit from killing CS's "competition", because CS has won already. <quote>When Valve decided to invest in the Counter-Strike mod and make it an official Half-Life add-on</quote> Totally untrue, CS version 1.0 will be included with a patch, probably as an optional download. Version 1.0.. Gooseman has a beta 7 planned, I'm willing to bet the farm on a beta 8, also.. Personally I don't think it should be released with a patch at all, but either way it does not ruin competition if it's optional.. If a HL player hasn't tried CS, then he's not really in the mod community. Perhaps CS will open his mind up to mods, and he'll use the mod browser to get another mod.. Sierra will be releasing an addon pack with MANY mods, CS will not get any special treatment.. As popular as it is, without the valve deal, it'd still get in the pack. <quote>Action Half-Life is one of the most established Half-Life mods, having been around since shortly after the game was released. The current version was released as a third beta, with one more patch expected before the v1.0 release.</quote> CS came out first, and even then, it was 8 1/2 months after HL came out. I have no clue where this notion of CS being the nasty largly funded project.. Well, beta 1, 2, 3, and 4 didn't suck, and even then, valve didn't invest with CS at all. And what about beta 6? Gooseman codes, models, does sprites, etc. Whatelse CAN valve do even if they wanted to help? Map? CS has a large mapping following.. I'll be frank, CS earned it's position by being the best in the eyes of the majority. Nothing fell in place for the CS team. <quote>I think people who play counterstrike are complete morons!</quote> Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. |
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<b>#88</b> "Fyrewolf" wrote... <QUOTE>You ever notice that if you try to go to www.actionhalflife.com it forwards you to counter-strike? Heh.</QUOTE> It also says that it <i>could</i> forward you to the Action Half-life site, but.. then continues to forward. Looks like a member of the CS team owned that domain. :) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<quote>I'd like to think that PlanetCrap is the exception. I'm not the only somewhat public person that posts here, and if we can't be completely free to say whatever we want without reprocussion against our day jobs, we'll all stop posting, and nobody wants that. </quote> If the 'Crap were private and required a login, you might be able to make that argument. But sorry, no public messageboard is an exception. That's just the way it is... But people really want that to be a selective thing. If we're talking about website traffic, you're the guy from Blue's News so you are an expert on the subject. But here you're just shootin' the shit. How are people reading supposed to distinguish between the two? |
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<b>#91</b> "RzE" wrote... <QUOTE> Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. </QUOTE> I don't agree with the earlier (tongue-in-cheek?) statement that CS players are morons, but I'm willing to say that anybody who feels that they are an authority to decide the definition of "true gamer", probably <I>is</I>.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. </quote> Shit. Those formative years with my beloved Atari 800... all of those years editing a gaming magazine... the thousands of articles... I thought I just didn't particularly care for team-based multiplayer games, but it turns out that because of this horrid aberration I'm not a gamer. I'm going to go sulk in a corner, next to my copy of Daikatana. |
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Actually, Counterstrike is not he only "offical Valve mod", Valve has been giving financial grants to several mod teams. they have also announced that they will be selling some mods in stores, possible packaged together as part of a mod pack. Way back when the Gunman mod was a quakeII mod, the team was about to fall aprt and the project scrapped. The team just did not have the time or money to finish this in their spare time. Valve took us under their wing and told us they would help out any way they could. They gave us code, advice, and money to buy new equipment and to pay our bills. Its been about a year and a half since we started our relationship with Valve, and they have given us the chance to create some of the best creative content we have ever done in our lives. We've been able to go to E3, video game press confrences, GDC's all because of the help valve has given us. My dreams, and the dreams of my teammates of being a part of the proffessional video game industry seem so much closer to being realized than before Valve contacted us. Because of the contact i've had with Valve, i do not believe that they would ever intentially (or unintentionaly but knowingly) sabotoge the mod community. They have nothing but love ;) . The release of the SDK2 is a major HELP to all mods out there, and something that many of us have been asking for for a long time. Valve even decided to allow some mods to have the beta of the SDK2 because they knew there would be some small compatibility issues and it might take some time to fix them. But, they all CAN be fixed. Action Half-Life will not become a dead mod, because of the absence of "hull type 3". They will figure out how to use the replacement for this feature, or find another way to implement this feature. In video game programming, there seems to be rarely only one approach to solving a problem. In conclusion, i think the Valve should be praised for their dedicated support to the mod community, both in general and to specific mods. There is no other company out there today who would take the risk to financially support teams like Gunman and Counterstrike with absolutely no guarantee on any return. -ilian |
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One thing i want to point out is that i have no data or knowledge about using Hull type 3 in the SDK2, so my statment made abotu it in my previous post could be erroneous. However, i firmly believe an answer CAN be found. While porting Gunman to SDK2 we had some problems which, at first, we believed would be impossible to fix, but after some creativity, and sometimes a little guidance from valve, the solutions were solved. -ilian |
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<b>#97</b> "ilian" wrote... <QUOTE>While porting Gunman to SDK2 we had some problems which, at first, we believed would be impossible to fix, but after some creativity, and sometimes a little guidance from valve, the solutions were solved.</QUOTE> Maybe instead of saying it is an impossible problem, the gang on the Action Half-life team should try asking Valve what they could do. I see no problem in that, or a reason why Valve shouldn't help. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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:P I recant that true gamer statement |
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<b>#91</b> "RzE" wrote... <QUOTE>Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. </QUOTE> Do I have to like it? :) -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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We have been talking with Valve about the problem, as have many people on the HL Development list. The answer we have gotten from valve is, You can't do it, but we might put it in the SDK update. I just hope thats sooner than later, I know valve WILL do it. The question is, when, and can Action Half-life stand to wait? We have been working with Valve, the Sabaneta 2050 team, and some others trying to find a way around this problem. It's not like we haven't tried. |
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Wonder if this is why Gooseman and Cliffe resisted the 'prone' position for CS ....... Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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No one from the FireArms Mod has complained about the new SDK messing up their prone code. Now, either FireArms hasn't been tested with the new SDK (which would be beyond stupid) or FireArms' "prone" method works with the new SDK. Perhaps the Action team should make contact with them to discuss.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Ive been in contact with many of the other mod teams that use Prone and diving. None of them have really gotten to porting the movement code except for the Sabeneta 2050 team, and us. I still need to talk with Nighthawk(opera) and the actual coder for Firearms, I only talked to a team member last night. |
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Lactius, arent the hitboxes put in the FGD? You would have to recompile, (entity update...?) but it sounds fixable and not such a big deal. I wonder why valve took out your hull type 3 (i need to look over my SDK some more...). |
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It isnt so much the hitboxes, thats a bad word to use, Its the box that Halflife uses for hit detection, and for player prediction. |
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"HL networking sucks! Give us new netcode or else!" "Screw AHL??! How dare you! You suck!" Can you say "damned if they do.. damned if they don't"? |
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Well, this post is very interesting. I was directed here from csnation.counter-strike.net so, right from the start, I want all of you to know that i'm a counter-strike fan. hardcore. I just wanted to state that what you people have said and debated over was right and true, but you must understand one thing - counter-strike is a better mod; counter-strike's gameplay is fun, guns are great, its very stable, easy to use, the buying system is so cool its not even funny, and it look like a GOOD game - it has the feel of a complete, fun, interesting, appealing, glamorous game. I've played FireArms Mod and i've played AHL, and I must say that they just dont seem as real... they do not seem like full games. I believe that it would be safe to say that Counter-Strike should be considered a GAME rather than a MOD. It is a great game and it already has many fans - why not adopt it? I mean, its a profitable oppurtinity! (well, maybe not profitible in the money-sense, but its a smart thing to do). I would do the same thing if I were in Valve's position. As a matter of fact, I would do more. So, to sum it up, counter-strike is simply a better game. -Sauron (OnE) |
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<quote>Show me someone who hasn't played CS, and I'll show you someone who isn't a true gamer. ... I'm going to go sulk in a corner, next to my copy of Daikatana. </quote> Amen to that! Haven't d/l, looked at, or played CS and have absolutely no desire to, either. The simple idea that I could die, and then have to sit and <i>wait</i> for everyone else to die/finish so that I can get back in the game really turns me off from the start. That and the simple fact that I don't get this whole realism kick in shooter games. I prefer the over-the-top, completely unrealistic style of game like Quake 2 or, god forbid I say it, Shogo (damn cool game, btw). btw, after the first 2 hours of Daikatana I don't get what everybody is bitching about. It's a fun game, dammit! |
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Clearly if Counter-Strike needed "hull type 3" valve wouldn't be "maybe fixing it in a later patch". I would suggest to the AHL team, just abandon half-life and concentrate on the Unreal Tournament port. Better to be a big fish in a small pond. and loonyboi <QUOTE>Don't be silly. This is not an objective forum, and if I want to talk out of my ass, i'm perfectly allowed to. :)</QUOTE> Here is some talk out of my ass for you: why don't you spend the time your wasting here at planetcrap updating loonygames? Not updating since March without even an explanation just makes you look like a lazy drunk. If you ARE a lazy drunk, please disregard my comments. |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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<b>#110</b> "Illbuddha" wrote... <QUOTE>...just makes you look like a lazy drunk. If you ARE a lazy drunk, please disregard my comments</QUOTE> rofl, thats the funniest thing ive read all day.. (no offense loonyboi) -ilian |
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<quote>Lacutis wrote.... "it is commmon knowledge that the Counterstrike team is getting money from valve." It is also common knowledge (or is it?) that the A-Team is getting money from Epic for doing AUT. Come on, let's put the whole story out, so CS doesn't come out looking like the "bad guys." |
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<quote>Not updating since March</quote> You mean Loonygames isn't still on Summer hiatus? |
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<quote>I just wanted to state that what you people have said and debated over was right and true, but you must understand one thing - counter-strike is a better mod; counter-strike's gameplay is fun, guns are great, its very stable, easy to use, the buying system is so cool its not even funny, and it look like a GOOD game - it has the feel of a complete, fun, interesting, appealing, glamorous game. I've played FireArms Mod and i've played AHL, and I must say that they just dont seem as real... they do not seem like full games. </quote> Ummmm, sorry but, Since when is a mod themed after Honk Kong Action movies supposed to be realistic? It's not! :) If you come to Action looking for a realistic Rainbow 6 shooter, you knocked on the wrong door. I'd go so far as to say that AHL and CS arent even in the same genre. |
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I replaced the C4 models in counter-strike with copies of <I>John Romeros: Diakatana!</I> Dont you just love it how he and his girlish figure are mentioned as if it was something to be proud of. For all the developement (like a decade wasn't it?) you'd think he would have turned out a game that didn't suck until you could suck no more. <I> Back on subject though</I> I think what Valve is doing is very creative and good for the CS team, and very half-assed for the AHL team. I played AHL and I honestly got bored doing it, but if id Could get off their fat asses and sponser a few mods like Valve, Q3A could possibly be a kikass game, unfortunately, all they <QUOTE>Utilized</QUOTE> was CTF and I got better ping/frames playing the Q2 version anyways (and the maps were better too). I say id has basically dumped its fans with a kickass engine that has <B>NO</B> game behind it. And frankly that sucks. The Q3A engine is vastly superior to any other game out there, the netcode is unbelievable yet, where the hell are they now? Those bastards are gonna try to SELL me mods! WTF! Why should i be forced to buy mods from id when valve is giving me them for free, at least valve is more concerned about earning a reputation other than how much human feces they can make me eat while saying <QUOTE><I>mmm... thats tasty id! May I have some more???"</QUOTE></I> |
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<QUOTE> ..Lacutis wrote.... "it is commmon knowledge that the Counterstrike team is getting money from valve." </QUOTE> It is also common knowledge (or is it?) that the A-Team is getting money from Epic for doing AUT. Come on, let's put the whole story out, so CS doesn't come out looking like the "bad guys." |
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I am in no way saying that Counterstrike is the "bad guys" I think that the Counterstrike team has done a great job, and I afford them NO ill will. But since you brought it up, No, the A-Team hasn't recieved a penny from Epic. There might be that possibility later, but for now, we arent being paid. Actually there is nothing that would make me happier then that. |
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Actually, let me correct that, They did give Oddjob a copy of Max. So I guess that does count for something. And they offer us support like I've never seen. We send them an email and usually have a reply in 30 secs to an hour, even on weekends. |
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Well Lacutis, rejoice in the fact that you will indeed get paid by Epic. Understandable that you haven't gotten anything yet since it's not out. But we talked with Mark Rein about the subject a while ago and you won't go unpaid. But I don't see why you would mention payment in the first place if there's "nothing that makes you happier." How is it relevent? |
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<quote>Clearly if Counter-Strike needed "hull type 3" valve wouldn't be "maybe fixing it in a later patch".</quote> Very, very good point. |
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Epic pays mod authors??? |
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Im not sure I understand your question. I meant, Making games for money, nothing would make me happier then that. |
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<b>#110</b> "Illbuddha" wrote... <QUOTE> If you ARE a lazy drunk, please disregard my comments. </QUOTE> Consider them disregarded. :) -jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<QUOTE>Consider them disregarded. :)</QUOTE> That's what I thought. Well, it takes one to know one. :] |
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