PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (4) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Mac, Linux and money. Guess who won.
May 14th 2000, 18:54 CEST by andy

Blue is reporting that the next version of the Unreal engine will use only Direct3D, dropping support for both Glide and OpenGL.

This may seem like a strange decision, and our kooky friends at Slashdot will be working double-time with the Microsoft theories, but whatever your view of MS and Epic this is really just a case of market forecasting...



Judging by the comments I've read over on Blue's forum, people's immediate reaction to this decision is to think about how much Epic is going to lose.

Supporting Direct3D exclusively will make it much harder for Epic to release their games on Linux and the Mac, as Microsoft's proprietary API is available for neither and is never likely to be. OpenGL is available for both. This means that either Linux and the Mac are no longer a part of Epic's game plan, or there are plans to develop dedicated rendering engines for those platforms, which seems so unlikely that I think we can safely disregard it.

It also creates an interesting dichotomy between the two big boys of both gaming and licensing, with Epic supporting only Direct3D and Id Software supporting only OpenGL. (Expect a LithTech press release any time now...)

I've been doing a bit of graphics work myself recently and I can't for the life of me understand why any programmer would choose Direct3D over OpenGL. And I'm only looking at it from an ease-of-use perspective, regardless of multi-platform support. Even as an amateur, I'm sure in my own mind that John Carmack is doing things the right way - using OpenGL for graphics and DirectSound for audio. To me, at least, it makes sense.

So why is Epic going with Direct3D?

Well, one reason could be that, according to the news item over on Blue's, Epic has "direct input to Microsoft as to the development of the API". This, presumably, does not mean that Tim Sweeney gives Billy G a call every couple of weeks and asks for a new feature to be added.

Epic is no doubt providing guidance on how D3D should progress to make it more desirable for real-world development. After all, whatever programming gurus are tapping away at their keyboards in Microsoft HQ, none of them will have written a million-selling game with dozens of licensees.

So has Epic's decision been 'influenced' by Microsoft? Epic is moving towards development for Microsoft's X-Box console, and it is clearly advantageous to MS if one of the most influential game developers not only abandons both Linux and the Mac, but also publicly declares its support for Direct3D over OpenGL. Outside the hardcore gaming community, this move helps MS big time, and in return, MS will no doubt give Epic a helping hand with X-Box development.

When you look at the bottom line - because this is obviously a business decision, not a programming one - you can see that Epic is gambling on both the success of the X-Box console and the continued 'failure' of Linux and the Mac as gaming platforms.

Within just a few months of its release, X-Box games will probably be outselling PC games many times over. So ask yourself: If you were going to license a game engine, would you go with an Id engine and cross-develop for PC, Mac and Linux, or would you go with an Epic engine and develop for one less platform but sell many times more copies?

There's a lot of love for Linux out there in Coderworld, and releasing on the Mac is becoming more popular, but ultimately licensing decisions are made by biz folk, not developers, and for most of them the potential revenue from X-Box sales is going to be too good to resist. It's sad how the move towards Mac and Linux gaming is going to be turned around in a very short space of time, but as always, someone mentioned dollars and someone else was listening.

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Mac, Linux and money. Guess who won.

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#88 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-05-16 05:58:46
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
RahvinTaka
<quote>One of the main reasons OGL Unreal sucked was because the developers didn't know how to use it.</quote>

I might be out of line here, but this is my understanding of what the deal is ... This is not directed at you specifically, just people in general.

People like to point at Quake3's OpenGL rendering and compare it directly to UT's and scream "Why can't UT render like that!?".

Well, the simple answer is that UT supports several rendering API's ... Q3 supports one.  It's no mystery as to why Q3 would have better OpenGL rendering speed : <i>that's all it does.</i>  It's entire graphics engine is designed to squeeze the maximum juice out of OpenGL.

UT's rendering pipeline is generic enough that it can be piped into any number of API's at the hardware end.  This means that you can't be the best in all those API's, but at least you have the advantage of supporting them all.  It's a trade off like anything else.

The Unreal engine started with software rendering and Glide.  Other API's were added on as they became needed/desired.

Want UT's OpenGL to be on par with Q3's?  It can be.  Epic just has to exclusively use OpenGL, change the rendering pipeline to be 100% OpenGL friendly, and drop the Glide, Software, Metal and Direct3D API's.  It's an engine design trade off.

UT's open architecture allowed Epic to port it to the PS2 in a matter of weeks.  That says something good in my book.  ;)

I find it interesting that people are accusing Epic of kissing up to Microsoft and selling out by using Direct3D as the main API for the next engine ... and nobody seems to have a problem with id <b>only</b> supporting OpenGL.  Exclusively.  :)


RAD Kade 1
<quote>you desperately need to step away from the computer, step outside, breathe the fresh air, and take a walk.</quote>

*rolls eyes, shakes head and wonders when the 'get a life' style of debating will cease to be appealing to people*
#89 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 06:12:34
none1a@home.com
Steve my source for Apples growth comes from US News (acctauly the article I was reading was basicly begging the DOJ to go after Apple for the hardware/OS intergration crap). Also apparently Apples latest comeback has convenced the boys at 3dfx that the platform is good for gaming (after all all of there latest drivers are being ported).

Also throwing the DOJ a bone with DirectX could be enough to cause the nonothings in the gov to bend at least a little, Also if MS did port directX to mac would add greatly to it's PC/X-Box use by developers (ie why use OpenGL when you can support two of the bigest OS installs and a possible money maker home system) I don't know maybe I'm the one grasping at strings here because I desperatly want to have the ability to play games on the Macs at work and school.
#90 by "RAD Kade 1"
2000-05-16 07:19:04
kmradlof@colby.edu http://rad.capecod.net/
<QUOTE>
*rolls eyes, shakes head and wonders when the 'get a life' style of debating will cease to be appealing to people*
</QUOTE>
Actually, I was more worried about the monitor inches away from his face and stale air that's been through the power supply fan 184 times possibly having some negative effects on his reasoning/judgement. I sure feel it sometimes. ;)

-RAD Kade 1
#91 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 07:52:23
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Also apparently Apples latest comeback has convenced the boys at 3dfx that the platform is good for gaming (after all all of there latest drivers are being ported). </quote>
Well, this could be seen as a sign of the Mac's strength or of 3dfx's continuing problems on the PC. They're losing the videocard battle , against nVIDIA, on the consumer, developer and most importantly, perhaps, on the OEM side of things... they claim #1 in retail, but the TNT market is fragmented enough among different makers you'd never know if it's the best-selling retail chipset or not.

X-Box' adoption of the NV-whatever will drive another nail in 3dfx's coffin--why would people optimize for anything but nVIDIA chipsets for their next PC games? Unless 3dfx matches nVIDIA's features for their X-Box chipset (they can add more features, of course), they're toast.

So rather than take nVIDIA on, they'll compete against ATI on the Mac market. Whether or not they can get OEM'ed with Apple is the question; I'm not sure how strong the aftermarket market is on the Mac, especially with ATI's Mac offerings constantly improving. Is it enough to sustain the company? Dunno.

(I actually upgraded to a TNT2 after playing Quake III test on a G3/ATI in 32-bit color... my Voodoo 2 in 16-bit color just looked ugly in comparison.)

<quote>Also if MS did port directX to mac would add greatly to it's PC/X-Box use by developers (ie why use OpenGL when you can support two of the bigest OS installs and a possible money maker home system) </quote>
I'd agree with that, but I just don't think enough PC developers really care about the Mac at this point... they may like (or love) the platform, but the cost/benefit is too low. I think they're as likely to do a Linux port as a Mac one, hence OpenGL.

It's a shame, really. I've used Macs and actually like 'em, but they're still too expensive on a one-to-one basis with an equivalent-speed PC.
#92 by "Creole Ned"
2000-05-16 08:51:42
cned@home.com http://www.quirkybastards.com
This was posted on Voodoo Extreme earlier Monday evening:

<quote>Epic's Tim "sweet ass" Sweeney responded to a question I had regarding Epic dropping OpenGL support (at least that's what was floating around, we haven't posted anything on this yet, I wanted to get it from the man) on their next-generation engine.  Here's what he had to say:

Hi,

Someone was smoking crack at E3, either Brandon or the dude who interviewed him. Here is our API strategy.

First of all, for future Unreal Tournament patches, all API's that are now supporting will remain in there.

For the next generation engine, we're tossing out the software renderer and all single-vendor API's. On Windows, we'll be supporting Direct3D as our primary API because the driver performance and stability is better, and OpenGL as our secondary API. On Linux and Mac, OpenGL will be our primary API. On PlayStation 2, we go directly to Sony's hardware.

That's all; there will more Glide or MeTaL or software rendering in our next-generation engine. Just Direct3D and OpenGL.

(Please post -- I have like 30 emails in my in-box asking why we suddenly "dropped" OpenGL support!)

-Tim</quote>

This essentially makes the topic of this thread irrelevant. :)

Creole Ned
#93 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-16 08:59:09
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#88</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>RahvinTaka

One of the main reasons OGL Unreal sucked was because the developers didn't know how to use it.


I might be out of line here, but this is my understanding of what the deal is ... This is not directed at you specifically, just people in general.</QUOTE>

ugg .. it should be directed at me thou :P. I was having bad day  and brought it to the message boards :O. (Sorry Brandon if you took offense)

<QUOTE>People like to point at Quake3's OpenGL rendering and compare it directly to UT's and scream "Why can't UT render like that!?".

Well, the simple answer is that UT supports several rendering API's ... Q3 supports one. It's no mystery as to why Q3 would have better OpenGL rendering speed : that's all it does. It's entire graphics engine is designed to squeeze the maximum juice out of OpenGL.
... snip lots of good points ...
</QUOTE>

I agree that abstraction general calls in some performance penalty but these can be minimised. The main reason that UT OGL sucks ass is they don't play to a abstract hardware interface. They rely on having access to video memory instead of working round a abstract interface (ie a basic interface is 90% texture usage with LRU policy to remove textures).

Instead of working within limitations of system they decided to try and get around it by doing custom texture manager. This makes it "easy" for them in short term but bites in long run. It also *can* lead to slow downs even in APIs that allow it.

So if they had worked in with the limitations of an abstract hardware renderer they would have had a much better interface all up. As they started from a software/glide base I can see why it turned out the way it did but I don't have to like it :P

That being said even if they had done it the <i>right way</i> (tm). The rendering speed would have been slower than DX because of problems with win95 machines. In win95 machines textures go through an extra mem copy to protect against case of BSOD happening. This will be a slow down for them because of lots of dynamic textures :/

<QUOTE>UT's open architecture allowed Epic to port it to the PS2 in a matter of weeks. That says something good in my book. ;) </QUOTE>

Any suitable high level interface would have allowed the same. They just didn't choose one (or they inherited an unsuitable iterface from software/glide renderer)

<QUOTE>
I find it interesting that people are accusing Epic of kissing up to Microsoft and selling out by using Direct3D as the main API for the next engine ... and nobody seems to have a problem with id only supporting OpenGL. Exclusively. :)
</QUOTE>

Mostly because people have a rapid hatred for MS and past DX has sucked :P .... gawd you don't think people actually use logic in these things ? :P

Besides OGL is cross-platform and is available on all but x-box, so choosing against it for a proprietry rapidly changing hacky PI generally goes against the grain :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#94 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-16 12:42:01
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Oh goody, personal attacks. How mature.  

#71, Crc, you know better than to sink to that level, at least you should if youre the original CRC from the OLD PC.  Please please please prove me wrong, provide me with sales figures for Loki's games.

#80 Rad, oh yeah ignorance. Gee wonder why so many windows people dislike the rabidly vocal linux community. It _might_ just be attitudes like that (and worse yet, slashdot)

lemme see here, where in N.Ireland can I walk in and buy Loki ports of games. *thinks hard*

*thinks more*

nowhere (and yes I know you can get downloads or order directly, guess what, no credit card so that rules that option out)

There are what, 15-20 Linux ports of games? Most 'big' games like UT, HL, Q3 have *nix ports of one sort of another. Still more have server software (that reliability thing again, which is fair enough) provided for them, often after much bitching on the community side.  

Wasnt there a big furore over Loki and quake 3, something about them shipping the cds in plain cardboard instead of the retail kits promised. Delay on the metal tin as well as I recall, was that ever sorted out ?

Oh and btw, Ive seen warez sites offering the Linux version of the Civilisation port and Myth. Guess that community isnt too proud to steal either.

wonder does being called a weenie annoy the Linux community as much as always reading people typing windoze does .....

really really nice to see open minded people post abou the topic and not make personal attacks on posters. DOH! guess what, its happened ! Hurrah, now we can affiliate with Slashdot and bleat about free beer, hot grits and petrified natalie portman.

Again folks, DISPROVE what Im saying, Im happy to be corrected. Im just recalling what I read in an online sight a while back that outlined Loki's practices. The sales are _not_ immense a mere drop in the ocean, I think Myth shifted maybe 2200 linux copies (vaguely remembered figure).  Prove me wrong, dont attack me personally (not that I give a fuck), show your debating skills and not your l33t side.

Ds
#95 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-05-16 16:06:49
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#88</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>People like to point at Quake3's OpenGL rendering and compare it directly to UT's and scream "Why can't UT render like that!?". </QUOTE>

Actually, I look at Half-life's OpenGL rendering, and that game supports Direct3D(though not very well). The thing that most people miss, though, is that UT's Direct3D rendering is probably the best example out there of what Direct3D can really do, and it's a very impressive game running on a GeForce at 32-bit colour. The real problem is that OpenGL seemed to have been more of an afterthought for UT, with Glide being first, and Direct3D coming next.

As far as Quake3 only supporting OpenGL, that's a GOOD thing. It was a slap in the face of 3dfx telling them to wake the fuck up and get their OpenGL support in order if they wanted to sell any more cards to the Quake players. 3dfx put off support of OpenGL on their cards for years, and even today their implementation of OpenGL drivers is nowhere near as good as it should be (considering they are one of the top companies for graphics chipsets/cards). Instead, 3dfx relied on their own proprietary API (Glide) for far too long trying to push others out of the market (pushing developers to produce Glide only games, threatening to sue and/or actually taking to court Creative Labs for creating a Glide interpreter for their cards, etc.), and finally one of the biggest (if not the biggest) names in software development stands up and says this is how it's going to be. id were going for the easiest cross-platform support they could, and OpenGL fit the bill. The fact that they didn't bend to any of the rest of the bullshit is just a bonus.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
(just need to add that Quake3 sucks so I don't feel bad for writing so many good things about it)
#96 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 18:43:13
none1a@home.com
Creole didn't Brandon (or a let some one using his name) post here saying none of Epics ports or Mac or Linux are done in house?
#97 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-16 19:21:49
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Brandon did UT's Linux port. Dunno about the Mac port.
#98 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-16 22:12:33
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#84</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Nope, it's going to be a simultaneous PC/Mac release (or at least according to the official site it is.

Ah crap. I got that info direct from Michel Kripalani, the head of Presto Studios, but maybe he was talking about the other Myst product they're working on (some sort of 3D-ish version of the original Myst using the Journeyman Project engine).

I could swear he said something they were working on wasn't Mac bound, and that they were trying to talk the Mattel folks into doing a port...

Then again, maybe I was hallucinating. It's possible. </QUOTE>

The only other Myst game I know of, is that real-time thing at Cyan that's going on...but I don't even know if that's technically a Myst title anyway.

...and, of course, I don't really care, either. :)

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#99 by Xero
2003-02-12 15:29:48
http://novakometa.blogspot.com/
And its 99 again!

When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem.
But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
R. Buckminster Fuller
My DVDs
#100 by Huge Wood Farmer
2003-02-12 22:39:16
did somebody say 100?

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers
- Pablo Picasso
#101 by OwenButler
2003-02-13 04:59:03
http://blog.owenbutler.org/
new t-shirt idea :

"I followed the dancing pirate, and all I got was this lousy post"

My post is included of course.
#102 by Gabe
2003-02-13 07:04:06
http://www.dartpublishing.com
#101 OwenButler
"I followed the dancing pirate, and all I got was this lousy post"

I like it!
#103 by G-Man
2004-09-23 08:34:32
I am an asshole.
#104 by Greg
2004-09-24 00:22:54
Last, last post.

こんにちは
#105 by Max
2004-09-24 06:46:48
http://massivebraincase.org/
Stop making me re-cache these dead threads, fuckers.

Yours Faithfully,
Dr Hamidu Dicko
MANAGER AUDITING AND ACCOUNTING DEPARTMENT
BANK OF AFRICA.
#106 by Dumdeedum
2004-09-24 06:47:53
http://www.dumdeedum.com
Sorry 'bout that.

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Mac, Linux and money. Guess who won.

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (4) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]