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Mac, Linux and money. Guess who won.
May 14th 2000, 18:54 CEST by andy

Blue is reporting that the next version of the Unreal engine will use only Direct3D, dropping support for both Glide and OpenGL.

This may seem like a strange decision, and our kooky friends at Slashdot will be working double-time with the Microsoft theories, but whatever your view of MS and Epic this is really just a case of market forecasting...



Judging by the comments I've read over on Blue's forum, people's immediate reaction to this decision is to think about how much Epic is going to lose.

Supporting Direct3D exclusively will make it much harder for Epic to release their games on Linux and the Mac, as Microsoft's proprietary API is available for neither and is never likely to be. OpenGL is available for both. This means that either Linux and the Mac are no longer a part of Epic's game plan, or there are plans to develop dedicated rendering engines for those platforms, which seems so unlikely that I think we can safely disregard it.

It also creates an interesting dichotomy between the two big boys of both gaming and licensing, with Epic supporting only Direct3D and Id Software supporting only OpenGL. (Expect a LithTech press release any time now...)

I've been doing a bit of graphics work myself recently and I can't for the life of me understand why any programmer would choose Direct3D over OpenGL. And I'm only looking at it from an ease-of-use perspective, regardless of multi-platform support. Even as an amateur, I'm sure in my own mind that John Carmack is doing things the right way - using OpenGL for graphics and DirectSound for audio. To me, at least, it makes sense.

So why is Epic going with Direct3D?

Well, one reason could be that, according to the news item over on Blue's, Epic has "direct input to Microsoft as to the development of the API". This, presumably, does not mean that Tim Sweeney gives Billy G a call every couple of weeks and asks for a new feature to be added.

Epic is no doubt providing guidance on how D3D should progress to make it more desirable for real-world development. After all, whatever programming gurus are tapping away at their keyboards in Microsoft HQ, none of them will have written a million-selling game with dozens of licensees.

So has Epic's decision been 'influenced' by Microsoft? Epic is moving towards development for Microsoft's X-Box console, and it is clearly advantageous to MS if one of the most influential game developers not only abandons both Linux and the Mac, but also publicly declares its support for Direct3D over OpenGL. Outside the hardcore gaming community, this move helps MS big time, and in return, MS will no doubt give Epic a helping hand with X-Box development.

When you look at the bottom line - because this is obviously a business decision, not a programming one - you can see that Epic is gambling on both the success of the X-Box console and the continued 'failure' of Linux and the Mac as gaming platforms.

Within just a few months of its release, X-Box games will probably be outselling PC games many times over. So ask yourself: If you were going to license a game engine, would you go with an Id engine and cross-develop for PC, Mac and Linux, or would you go with an Epic engine and develop for one less platform but sell many times more copies?

There's a lot of love for Linux out there in Coderworld, and releasing on the Mac is becoming more popular, but ultimately licensing decisions are made by biz folk, not developers, and for most of them the potential revenue from X-Box sales is going to be too good to resist. It's sad how the move towards Mac and Linux gaming is going to be turned around in a very short space of time, but as always, someone mentioned dollars and someone else was listening.

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#48 by "Nick"
2000-05-15 03:54:41
<b>#34</b>, RahvinTaka said:
<QUOTE>There are those of the community who like this. Most prefer not to learn to a new API every 6 months. DX changes constantly because MS makes mistakes. OGL changes sometimes to add features and I guess they must fix mistakes (anyone know of any "mistakes" they fixed ????). 1.2 took so long because it was well thought out. Look at the longevity of OGL. </QUOTE>

I use both OGL and DX (I used DX since v3) and DX8 has now overtaken OGL in both speed and functionality. It has taken MS 8 iterations but they have gotten it finally right. I don't see why anyone would wanna use OGL again. Sure it's a bit easier to use but you will pay with driver problems (OGL drivers from most vid card manufacturers are flakey and there are big time inconsistencies between implementations). DX8's per-pixel shading is awesome (implemented in GeForce2) and OGL doesn't have that functionality. Realism produced by DX apps will be like 20x better than similar programs written in OGL.

DX8 will change the minds of a lot of programmers this year and OGL will be used in a single digit percentage of games.
#49 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-15 05:49:55
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
As the author of the news story in question, I figure I should step in here... :)

When Brandon told us this, I have to admit, I was a little surprised, but at the same time, I respect their ability to be completely non-politically correct in this manner.

The fact of the matter is, that while Carmack and the Slashdot crowd loves to advocate cross-platform development, the money just isn't there. A publisher of a "bestselling" mac title revealed some numbers to me during the show that were downright shocking. Compared to consoles, PC games sell pretty poorly. Compared to PC games...Mac games don't sell at all, even when they do sell.

And Linux? Don't even joke about that. The costs involved in burning the CDs alone will never be recouped on a Linux game release.

If this trend continues (and I don't see why it won't) expect some major companies to pull completely out of Mac game ports. Even with over a million iMac sales out there, those people just aren't buying any games.

I think Epic may be hurting their licensees by not offering a better cross-platform package, and may wind up crippling Mac gamers of several A-list titles as a result, but the real money is in PS2 and X-Box development, and they are taking that one by the horns.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "None-1a"
2000-05-15 06:25:37
none1a@home.com
Um, I've just got to say this most PC developers (and hardware venders)have some say in what featrues are added to DirectX. Also there are some features of D3D that would be extreamly difficult to program on OGL (for example texture compresion is built in with D3D, but would need to be programed with OGL.

As for losing Mac and Linux support. Since Apple has made such a big come back MS has started to show some interest in the Mac platform (with newer versions of IE being ported) it's possible that MS and Apple may be working on some version of DirectX for the platform (they have worked together before on the TrueType format so it can happen again, even more likley since Apple has a new OS and MS had a new version of DX in the works). Linux support is a little wired but basicly Linux as an OS has more to gain the Epic does by continuing support for Unreal engines.

One last thing Epics records might show that the majority of develers are asking for just the D3D version, if this is the case there just might not be enough demand for other API's by outside develors to justify continued development in house (anyone else could add support for OGL and with some work on the contract that work could become the property of Epic)
#51 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 06:54:22
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#48</b> "Nick" wrote...
<QUOTE>I use both OGL and DX (I used DX since v3) and DX8 has now overtaken OGL in both speed and functionality. It has taken MS 8 iterations but they have gotten it finally right. I don't see why anyone would wanna use OGL again. Sure it's a bit easier to use but you will pay with driver problems (OGL drivers from most vid card manufacturers are flakey and there are big time inconsistencies between implementations).</QUOTE>

Yup hate those inconsistancies :P

<QUOTE>DX8's per-pixel shading is awesome (implemented in GeForce2) and OGL doesn't have that functionality. </QUOTE>

Have you actually used DX8's per-pixel shading ? If so, and you aren't under a NDA can you explain to me what great feature it has over OGL which as far as I can see supports all pixel shading equivelents.

The only thing that I know of that DX8 has better than OGL will be vertex level shaders. And these are very very kewl :P.

<QUOTE>Realism produced by DX apps will be like 20x better than similar programs written in OGL. </QUOTE>

*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*
I start to get a little sceptical when people try to quantify reality .. especially when they give an exact figure. I would go to the extent to say DX8's main advantage is not better chance to create reality but better chance to create non-reality. I suspect cartoon engines will come in vogue as will a whole heap of different rendering styles. All due to introduction of vertex shaders (thou I am assuming vertex shaders end up being implemented well).

<QUOTE>DX8 will change the minds of a lot of programmers this year and OGL will be used in a single digit percentage of games. </QUOTE>

Perhaps. But for what reason ? Personally I don't think the answer is going to be be that DX8 is a technicakl superior API.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#52 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-15 07:32:01
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#51</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote...
<QUOTE>I suspect cartoon engines will come in vogue </QUOTE>

And Q3A (<i>Quake, 3rd Attempt</i>) seems to be leaning in that direction already.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#53 by "Tyrant"
2000-05-15 07:37:50
GM's <A href="http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/finger.pl?id=266&time=20000515002604">plan file</A> has been updated.
#54 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-05-15 07:46:42
brandon@epicgames.com http://unreal.epicgames.com
Sure, focusing on Direct3D will make ports difficult, but we are going to be shipping a game on Playstation 2 and I never said we were dropping Linux or Mac.

Our Mac ports are done by an external company anyway.  If they look at our stuff and say "we can port that and make it cool" we'll absolutely continue to have Mac ports done.  But Epic has never done any internal Mac development and isn't going to start any time soon.

I don't see why everyone is up in arms about this.  Tim has posted essentially the same comments on the tech page months ago.  (Perhaps even last year) talking about how our Windows focus from now on would be Direct3D.
#55 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 08:28:02
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#54</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote...
<QUOTE>Sure, focusing on Direct3D will make ports difficult, but we are going to be shipping a game on Playstation 2 and I never said we were dropping Linux or Mac. </QUOTE>

Company rarely tell you that they are going to shaft you but it happens. And as Epic has very adamant (sp?) about supporting windows tech you can see where people could think you were dropping linux/mac/whatever.

<QUOTE>I don't see why everyone is up in arms about this. Tim has posted essentially the same comments on the tech page months ago. (Perhaps even last year) talking about how our Windows focus from now on would be Direct3D. </QUOTE>

I don't think it is the act that worries people but the fact you officialize it seems to lend weight to people who want to jump up and say DX is a better platform.

( BTW This next statement is not meant to offend but it has to be said :P. )

One of the main reasons OGL Unreal sucked was because the developers didn't know how to use it. (soz ). But because you don't want to publish your ignorance peoplle assume you knew what you were doing and it was OGL that wasn't up to the challenge. This is what offends me the most :D
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#56 by "Nick"
2000-05-15 08:33:52
<quote>Have you actually used DX8's per-pixel shading ? If so, and you aren't under a NDA can you explain to me what great feature it has over OGL which as far as I can see supports all pixel shading equivelents.
</quote>

OGL is missing some blends... there are some extensions *gasp* but they are not as nice to use and it rarely works with drivers I use.

<quote>*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*
I start to get a little sceptical when people try to quantify reality .. especially when they give an exact figure.
</quote>

Per pixel shading is amazing. I can't give you any shots to see for yourself just yet. Wait and you'll see what kind of stuff I'm talking about (hint: lights and texture interactions/animations look like photographs).
#57 by "Nick"
2000-05-15 08:33:53
<quote>Have you actually used DX8's per-pixel shading ? If so, and you aren't under a NDA can you explain to me what great feature it has over OGL which as far as I can see supports all pixel shading equivelents.
</quote>

OGL is missing some blends... there are some extensions *gasp* but they are not as nice to use and it rarely works with drivers I use.

<quote>*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*
I start to get a little sceptical when people try to quantify reality .. especially when they give an exact figure.
</quote>

Per pixel shading is amazing. I can't give you any shots to see for yourself just yet. Wait and you'll see what kind of stuff I'm talking about (hint: lights and texture interactions/animations look like photographs).
#58 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 09:05:01
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#56</b> "Nick" wrote...
<QUOTE>OGL is missing some blends... there are some extensions *gasp* but they are not as nice to use and it rarely works with drivers I use. </QUOTE>

imaging 1.2 extensions ? Yup I wish they were standard but unfortunately they are not yet accelerated in hardware yet so it would be a software path.

<QUOTE>Per pixel shading is amazing. I can't give you any shots to see for yourself just yet. Wait and you'll see what kind of stuff I'm talking about (hint: lights and texture interactions/animations look like photographs). </QUOTE>

umm yes I know. But per pixel shading is possible with OGL ... I basically want to know what per pixel operations are available in DX8 that can not be done in OGL :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#59 by "RedLine"
2000-05-15 15:07:35
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
I've been thinking about it and you know, it's funny... All the FPS games I really enjoy have all be created with various versions of id's Quake engines... <B>id</B> can't seem to make a real game, but they sure as heck can make technology that lets other people make real games.

Also, Linux and Mac are really fringe platforms anyway, and will struggle to be anything else because of this circle:  Take Linux right now, what is needed is a windowing envroinment into which companies can implement soild OpenGL drivers... we've seen this happen with X and Mesa, but it is still very much ugly stuff...

So your above-average person on the street looks at Linux and Windows for their new self-built PC... in Linux they see a stable OS with terrible hardware support (You have to use like two year old hardware to be sure of full support, especially for sound and video) and no games or familar software... eg, yes you can get "a paint program" for Linux, but you can't get <B>the</B> paint program you were used to using on your old PC.....  So as much as your above-average person would like to switch to an open OS, lack of support for their new toys, and lack of their favourite programs forces them to bite the bullet and get the latest MS OS...

So in turn the game developers look at the platform and see there are not enough hardware companies doing driver development... they see there are not enough people buying/using the OS and they see it as a big risk to develop games on it, so they don't... or they try to port them over at a later date

In turn the hardware manufacturers look at the platform and see all this and go "Well, no point making drivers for that platform if no-one is making any decent software, and people are not using it for mainstream computing"

And so it goes on... Ok it might not be quite as bad as I make it out to be, but the point is, while everyone is relatively happy with an extablished system - and admit it, even though MS have bullied people around and been pretty unplesant, you at least have a compatible platform, even if it is a closed-source, buggy and unstable one - things just don't change that much... it takes something out of the routine for business to invest in another platform.

That is what Linux needs... people to put up a load of money and be prepaired in the short - medium term to see very little of that money come back.  It just seems these days with ever decreasing product dev cycles, and ever decreasing profit margins, most companies just don't have the kind of capital it would take available... and if they do, they probably have more short-term "get more money quick" ideas, and so they never spend that money to build a new platform.

Anyways... at the end of the day, you have to remember this is only one company, and it's only Epic.... None of their games or a game done with their engine has ever held my long-term interest... UT was fun for a few weeks, but then it got boring... so who really cares.... of course you might feel differently, but for me there's plenty of companies out there that make better technology, and there are plenty of companies out there that make better games with that better technology.

One of the best parts of the PC is that you are free to choose what you use, so everyone can go their own road.  I guess sometimes this means you have Part X and you need Part Y to play this really hot new game... but then it is the same in console land... you might have a Playstation, but there is this totally cool game on the Dreamcast... so do you buy both consoles, or do you just sigh and wish you could play the game ?  At least with a PC, if you need a 600MHz+ CPU and a GeForce2 to play the latest new game, you can at some point justify the upgrade... but try to justify having two or three similar consoles, just to play games that are only available on a particular platform.

Hmm... was that on topic ? ;-)

I guess my point here can be summed up as "Who cares what Epic does... if you want to play one of their games, you're gonna have to get whatever technology you need to run it"... If it means just a different operating system, at least with the PC, you could always dual boot between Linux and Windows.... it's not like a console where you always have to have seperate hardware.
#60 by "RandoM"
2000-05-15 15:13:23
random1@speakeasy.org http://www.clan51.com
Lose? HA!

Not supporting Mac and Linux will actually cause them to save money, unless those ports were being heavily subsidized by somebody else.

When most games sell considerably less than 100k copies for the platform with the lion's share of the market, developing for other platforms just doesn't make sense from a pure bean counter point of view.

What I would do in their case is ask Apple to foot the bill for porting, at least for the Mac version.  FPS gaming doesn't really fit the demographic for your "typical" mac user, though.
#61 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-05-15 17:21:28
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
'Blue is reporting that the next version of the Unreal engine will use only Direct3D, dropping support for both Glide and OpenGL.'

hmm...crapspy doesn't like quoting from the original article ;)

In my opinion, this is a good move by Epic (though it wouldn't be a good move for other developers), because, quite frankly, Unreal/UT's OpenGL support sucks, and Glide is a proprietary API that never should've lived this long to begin with. With all of that said, I prefer playing most games in OpenGL when the option is available, but with UT, the Direct3d support works so well (and the OpenGL support so poorly) that there's really nothing I can think of, under an MS OS, that gives them any reason to support the other APIs.

Alternatively, they could hire someone that knows how to write good code for OpenGL rendering, or is it possible that with Unreal/UT they've found some limitations to OpenGL that just don't fit with what they're trying to do with the engine? I guess it's really time for me to start looking for the info on why they are doing this (not to mention the validity of it) and what their plans are for the Mac and Linux platforms.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#62 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 17:59:17
Well if they aren't dropping the ports, then where the hell is the story here?
 
GM has been saying the next engine is going to be D3D for months.


sheesh.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#63 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 19:00:50
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
/me Fetches 2x4

/me proceeds to smack the crap out of Blue

/me reminds Loonyboi to smack Blue for posting about Planetcrap again


Ds
#64 by "None-1a"
2000-05-15 19:01:51
none1a@home.com
Yeap there going to support the ports (just by having a second company do it, like I said before the wording of the contract more then likly has the ports belonging to Epic not the company that did the work).
#65 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 19:29:27
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#63</b>, Darkseid-[D!]:
<QUOTE>
/me reminds Loonyboi to smack Blue for posting about Planetcrap again
</QUOTE>
There's nothing wrong with them linking to us, so long as people ignore the trolls and first-posters when they arrive.

So you know, I sent the link to Blue's myself. This is the only site I write for at the moment and when there's a story that I think would be of interest outside PC's limited readership, I'm going to let sites such as Blue's know about it.

I'm not going to live in fear of a bunch of trolls turning up, and I'd suggest that other people shouldn't either.
#66 by "Greg"
2000-05-15 22:00:51
Since no one has posted this, I will. I just saw on VoodooExtreme that Tim Sweeney posted clarifications to this mess. It boils down to this:

No Glide or S3 Metal.

That's it. OpenGL will still be supported, for Windows, Mac, and Linux.

Greg
#67 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-15 22:28:19
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>it's possible that MS and Apple may be working on some version of DirectX for the platform </quote>

I posed this question to the head of the DirectX team in an interview a couple of months ago and he specifically said they had no intention of porting DirectX to either the MacOS or Linux.
#68 by "RAD Kade 1"
2000-05-15 23:12:42
kmradlof@colby.edu http://rad.capecod.net/
Sigh.
<QUOTE>
And Linux? Don't even joke about that. The costs involved in burning the CDs alone will never be recouped on a Linux game release.
</QUOTE>
Um, then why does <A HREF="http://www.lokigames.com/">Loki</A> keep rolling out the games?
<QUOTE>
... in Linux they see a stable OS with terrible hardware support (You have to use like two year old hardware to be sure of full support, especially for sound and video) and no games or familar software...
</QUOTE>
Um, do I actually have to tell you what a silly statement that is? :P

-RAD Kade 1
#69 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 23:32:43
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Loki does it to shut the linux weenies up, theyre not doing it for the money as I doubt very very much if their costs are being met by the sales.

course theres that wonderful side of the *nix community which demands everything be open source or 'free beer'.  Nice to see communism has found a new home in the elightened 90s and into the next milenium.


Key part of Sweeneys post, refers to _server_ owners .. not *nix weenies playing the games...


Ds
#70 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 00:21:10
none1a@home.com
Steve I said is was possible, not probable. And it still is, assuming some one higher up signed a deal with Apple the DirectX team comments mean nothing. The fact is a lot has happened since your interview Apple has grown in market share and MS's DOJ problem have compounded greatly since then, and what better way to show the government the new Microsoft then to port your own API to a reviels system?

I'd be interested to hear what the DX team and the higher ups as Microsoft say about it now that all of this has happened. As well as well as if they think at some point say 5-10 years from now it will happen.

As for DX being ported to Linux I agree that we'll never see this happen do to the open source every thing and antimicrosoft ideas running through the linux community.
#71 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 00:41:18
<b>#69</b> "Darkseid-[D!]" wrote...
<quote> Loki does it to shut the linux weenies up, theyre not doing it for the money as I doubt very very much if their costs are being met by the sales. </quote>
 
A company in business to lose money with no purpose other than to shut weenies up...
 
sounds just a bit like you are a clueless moron DS.
 
no offense intended, of course.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#72 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 00:44:18
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>The fact is a lot has happened since your interview Apple has grown in market share</quote>
Wow, all of this in two months? Impressive...

But seriously, here's a perfect example of the current state of Mac gaming: there is no plan for Myst III on the Macintosh. This despite the original appearing first on that platform and a developer (Presto Studios) that has a track record for Mac games.

Apple may very well be growing in market share (though I'd be curious of your source for that), but the state of Mac gaming is rather bleak. Sales of Mac games are not good, at least according to people I spoke with at E3. I only saw Mac games at the Infogrames booth.

And Apple itself elected not to even bother with E3, which is a bad sign.

<quote>and what better way to show the government the new Microsoft then to port your own API to a reviels system? </quote>
Hmm... Office, which is a bigger revenue generator for Microsoft than Windows, is already on the Mac, and obviously that doesn't mean anything to the DOJ... I'm guessing that porting DirectX would be a meaningless gesture as far as they're concerned.
#73 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-16 00:47:13
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#68</b> "RAD Kade 1" wrote...
<QUOTE>Um, then why does Loki keep rolling out the games? </QUOTE>

Because they're paid by original publishers to port titles - they don't rely exclusively on sales (at least I assume so). As long as there are companies that want their games to appear on multiple platforms, Loki will stay in business. But as publishers see the numbers that comes out of this...well...I think in a couple of years Loki will be back to making one game a year again.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#74 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 00:47:41
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>A company in business to lose money with no purpose other than to shut weenies up... </quote>
While it's highly unlikely they're doing it to shut people up, they may still not be making any money. They could be willing to absorb short-term losses in the hope that Linux gaming really takes off, at which point they'll be the premiere Linux publisher.

It's a risk, but certainly not an unprecedented one. Then again, they could be selling millions of copies.

I wonder if there's much of a Linux warez scene? If so, talk about shooting yourselves in the foot...
#75 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 00:52:37
<b>#72</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<quote>
 Hmm... Office, which is a bigger revenue generator for Microsoft than Windows, is already on the Mac, and obviously that doesn't mean anything to the DOJ.</quote>


Sounds a bit like someone is talking without doing any research.  
 
Microsoft threatened to halt production of office for the mac, and prevent it's release (at a significant loss of revenue for themselves) on the specific condition that apple make internet explorer the preliminary browser for the macintosh.
 
Microsoft was using the office suite, and the benefits it would bring to the mac platform as brute leverage to FORCE apple to use an internet browser they didn't want to use.  It was a fairly large piece of testimony in the trial.  And yet ANOTHER reason why the monopoly is a very bad thing for consumers.
 
I'm suprised someone with such a strong opinion on the matter never bothered to even find out what he was talking about.
 

I'll take that back,  I'm not suprised.
 



________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
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#76 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-16 00:53:30
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#72</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>But seriously, here's a perfect example of the current state of Mac gaming: there is no plan for Myst III on the Macintosh. This despite the original appearing first on that platform and a developer (Presto Studios) that has a track record for Mac games. </QUOTE>

Nope, it's going to be a simultaneous PC/Mac release (or at least according to <a href="http://www.myst3.com/exile/index.html">the official site</a> it is.

The original Myst was created on a Mac for Mac gamers, and it took years for it to come to the PC. This new game may not be made internally at Cyan, but they aren't going to forget that any time soon.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#77 by "Valeyard"
2000-05-16 00:54:47
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Yet <b>another</b> issue that isn't.

More common sense, more e-mails....problem solved.

Of course "money" won.  That's the smart business decision.  This <b>is</b> a business after all.  Now they've clarified that porting to other platforms will <b>still</b> occur.

Let me move that straw a little further away...

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#78 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 00:57:55
hey valeyard,   what is your purpose in posting to every thread bitching about how pointless the topic is?
 


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#79 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 01:03:21
#75
 
my bad.  a couple seconds in google.com found a <a href="http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK19981102S0001">link</a>
 
that microsoft was going to STOP office production, not prevent it, as it's been out for a while.
 
However the point still stands clearly.

(yes I am annoyed)


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#80 by "RAD Kade 1"
2000-05-16 01:04:21
kmradlof@colby.edu http://rad.capecod.net/
<QUOTE>
Loki does it to shut the linux weenies up, theyre not doing it for the money as I doubt very very much if their costs are being met by the sales.

course theres that wonderful side of the *nix community which demands everything be open source or 'free beer'. Nice to see communism has found a new home in the elightened 90s and into the next milenium.
</QUOTE>
Um, I think this is the most ridiculous commentary I have read in quite a while. I'm glad to see ignorance has found a new home on PC. :)

If you think Loki is in business just to "shut the weenies up," you desperately need to step away from the computer, step outside, breathe the fresh air, and take a walk.

They are a business. Their mission is to make money. And I'm quite sure they're doing it.

-RAD Kade 1
  GNU/Linux Weeny
#81 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-16 01:18:12
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#78</b> "Bad_CRC" wrote...
<QUOTE>hey valeyard, what is your purpose in posting to every thread bitching about how pointless the topic is?



________________________________
dumb·ass (Düm-èSS) n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me. </QUOTE>


to bitch :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#82 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 01:25:35
<b>#81</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<quote>to bitch :)</quote>

I guess that's valid.   I suppose when it comes down to it, that's basically why the rest of us come here on some level or another.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#83 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 01:29:28
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Sounds a bit like someone is talking without doing any research. </quote>
Ooh, attacks. Fun!

I could say something about reading comprehension and context... pot/kettle, blah blah blah, but let's look at the original quote I was referring to:

It was regarding DirectX and the Mac:

<quote>and what better way to show the government the new Microsoft then to port your own API to a reviels [sic] system? </quote>

This person was proposing that, in light of their DOJ troubles, porting DirectX to the Mac would be a good PR move for Microsoft. A decent idea, but I thought it was somewhat flawed, so I said:

<quote>Hmm... Office, which is a bigger revenue generator for Microsoft than Windows, is already on the Mac, and obviously that doesn't mean anything to the DOJ... I'm guessing that porting DirectX would be a meaningless gesture as far as they're concerned.</quote>
What I was saying (apparently not very clearly) is that it doesn't appear the DOJ takes into account the mere existence of Office on the Mac as an example of Microsoft being a less-monopolistic warm and friendly company that makes software for lots of people and platforms, blah blah blah.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
#84 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 01:32:14
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Nope, it's going to be a simultaneous PC/Mac release (or at least according to the official site it is. </quote>
Ah crap. I got that info direct from Michel Kripalani, the head of Presto Studios, but maybe he was talking about the other Myst product they're working on (some sort of 3D-ish version of the original Myst using the Journeyman Project engine).

I could swear he said something they were working on wasn't Mac bound, and that they were trying to talk the Mattel folks into doing a port...

Then again, maybe I was hallucinating. It's possible.
#85 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 01:42:03
Apparently, my entire point was lost.  
 
*sigh*  Oh well.
 
Please read the link, at least so you can see why your example isn't appropriate.  thanks.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#86 by "Valeyard"
2000-05-16 02:21:13
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
I'd just like to see some good debates on actual topics.

The 3 newest topics are pointless.  I only pointed it in the hopes that we can avoid them in the future.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#87 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 03:19:59
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Apparently, my entire point was lost. </quote>
Apparently.

<quote>Please read the link, at least so you can see why your example isn't appropriate. thanks.</quote>
I did read the link. Thanks. It really hammered home the reason why porting DirectX to the Mac would help Microsoft with their DOJ troubles. I think.

I apologize for apparently lacking the insight to comprehend weighty matters such as these, and thank you for clearly explaining the error of my ways.
#88 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-05-16 05:58:46
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
RahvinTaka
<quote>One of the main reasons OGL Unreal sucked was because the developers didn't know how to use it.</quote>

I might be out of line here, but this is my understanding of what the deal is ... This is not directed at you specifically, just people in general.

People like to point at Quake3's OpenGL rendering and compare it directly to UT's and scream "Why can't UT render like that!?".

Well, the simple answer is that UT supports several rendering API's ... Q3 supports one.  It's no mystery as to why Q3 would have better OpenGL rendering speed : <i>that's all it does.</i>  It's entire graphics engine is designed to squeeze the maximum juice out of OpenGL.

UT's rendering pipeline is generic enough that it can be piped into any number of API's at the hardware end.  This means that you can't be the best in all those API's, but at least you have the advantage of supporting them all.  It's a trade off like anything else.

The Unreal engine started with software rendering and Glide.  Other API's were added on as they became needed/desired.

Want UT's OpenGL to be on par with Q3's?  It can be.  Epic just has to exclusively use OpenGL, change the rendering pipeline to be 100% OpenGL friendly, and drop the Glide, Software, Metal and Direct3D API's.  It's an engine design trade off.

UT's open architecture allowed Epic to port it to the PS2 in a matter of weeks.  That says something good in my book.  ;)

I find it interesting that people are accusing Epic of kissing up to Microsoft and selling out by using Direct3D as the main API for the next engine ... and nobody seems to have a problem with id <b>only</b> supporting OpenGL.  Exclusively.  :)


RAD Kade 1
<quote>you desperately need to step away from the computer, step outside, breathe the fresh air, and take a walk.</quote>

*rolls eyes, shakes head and wonders when the 'get a life' style of debating will cease to be appealing to people*
#89 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 06:12:34
none1a@home.com
Steve my source for Apples growth comes from US News (acctauly the article I was reading was basicly begging the DOJ to go after Apple for the hardware/OS intergration crap). Also apparently Apples latest comeback has convenced the boys at 3dfx that the platform is good for gaming (after all all of there latest drivers are being ported).

Also throwing the DOJ a bone with DirectX could be enough to cause the nonothings in the gov to bend at least a little, Also if MS did port directX to mac would add greatly to it's PC/X-Box use by developers (ie why use OpenGL when you can support two of the bigest OS installs and a possible money maker home system) I don't know maybe I'm the one grasping at strings here because I desperatly want to have the ability to play games on the Macs at work and school.
#90 by "RAD Kade 1"
2000-05-16 07:19:04
kmradlof@colby.edu http://rad.capecod.net/
<QUOTE>
*rolls eyes, shakes head and wonders when the 'get a life' style of debating will cease to be appealing to people*
</QUOTE>
Actually, I was more worried about the monitor inches away from his face and stale air that's been through the power supply fan 184 times possibly having some negative effects on his reasoning/judgement. I sure feel it sometimes. ;)

-RAD Kade 1
#91 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 07:52:23
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Also apparently Apples latest comeback has convenced the boys at 3dfx that the platform is good for gaming (after all all of there latest drivers are being ported). </quote>
Well, this could be seen as a sign of the Mac's strength or of 3dfx's continuing problems on the PC. They're losing the videocard battle , against nVIDIA, on the consumer, developer and most importantly, perhaps, on the OEM side of things... they claim #1 in retail, but the TNT market is fragmented enough among different makers you'd never know if it's the best-selling retail chipset or not.

X-Box' adoption of the NV-whatever will drive another nail in 3dfx's coffin--why would people optimize for anything but nVIDIA chipsets for their next PC games? Unless 3dfx matches nVIDIA's features for their X-Box chipset (they can add more features, of course), they're toast.

So rather than take nVIDIA on, they'll compete against ATI on the Mac market. Whether or not they can get OEM'ed with Apple is the question; I'm not sure how strong the aftermarket market is on the Mac, especially with ATI's Mac offerings constantly improving. Is it enough to sustain the company? Dunno.

(I actually upgraded to a TNT2 after playing Quake III test on a G3/ATI in 32-bit color... my Voodoo 2 in 16-bit color just looked ugly in comparison.)

<quote>Also if MS did port directX to mac would add greatly to it's PC/X-Box use by developers (ie why use OpenGL when you can support two of the bigest OS installs and a possible money maker home system) </quote>
I'd agree with that, but I just don't think enough PC developers really care about the Mac at this point... they may like (or love) the platform, but the cost/benefit is too low. I think they're as likely to do a Linux port as a Mac one, hence OpenGL.

It's a shame, really. I've used Macs and actually like 'em, but they're still too expensive on a one-to-one basis with an equivalent-speed PC.
#92 by "Creole Ned"
2000-05-16 08:51:42
cned@home.com http://www.quirkybastards.com
This was posted on Voodoo Extreme earlier Monday evening:

<quote>Epic's Tim "sweet ass" Sweeney responded to a question I had regarding Epic dropping OpenGL support (at least that's what was floating around, we haven't posted anything on this yet, I wanted to get it from the man) on their next-generation engine.  Here's what he had to say:

Hi,

Someone was smoking crack at E3, either Brandon or the dude who interviewed him. Here is our API strategy.

First of all, for future Unreal Tournament patches, all API's that are now supporting will remain in there.

For the next generation engine, we're tossing out the software renderer and all single-vendor API's. On Windows, we'll be supporting Direct3D as our primary API because the driver performance and stability is better, and OpenGL as our secondary API. On Linux and Mac, OpenGL will be our primary API. On PlayStation 2, we go directly to Sony's hardware.

That's all; there will more Glide or MeTaL or software rendering in our next-generation engine. Just Direct3D and OpenGL.

(Please post -- I have like 30 emails in my in-box asking why we suddenly "dropped" OpenGL support!)

-Tim</quote>

This essentially makes the topic of this thread irrelevant. :)

Creole Ned
#93 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-16 08:59:09
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#88</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>RahvinTaka

One of the main reasons OGL Unreal sucked was because the developers didn't know how to use it.


I might be out of line here, but this is my understanding of what the deal is ... This is not directed at you specifically, just people in general.</QUOTE>

ugg .. it should be directed at me thou :P. I was having bad day  and brought it to the message boards :O. (Sorry Brandon if you took offense)

<QUOTE>People like to point at Quake3's OpenGL rendering and compare it directly to UT's and scream "Why can't UT render like that!?".

Well, the simple answer is that UT supports several rendering API's ... Q3 supports one. It's no mystery as to why Q3 would have better OpenGL rendering speed : that's all it does. It's entire graphics engine is designed to squeeze the maximum juice out of OpenGL.
... snip lots of good points ...
</QUOTE>

I agree that abstraction general calls in some performance penalty but these can be minimised. The main reason that UT OGL sucks ass is they don't play to a abstract hardware interface. They rely on having access to video memory instead of working round a abstract interface (ie a basic interface is 90% texture usage with LRU policy to remove textures).

Instead of working within limitations of system they decided to try and get around it by doing custom texture manager. This makes it "easy" for them in short term but bites in long run. It also *can* lead to slow downs even in APIs that allow it.

So if they had worked in with the limitations of an abstract hardware renderer they would have had a much better interface all up. As they started from a software/glide base I can see why it turned out the way it did but I don't have to like it :P

That being said even if they had done it the <i>right way</i> (tm). The rendering speed would have been slower than DX because of problems with win95 machines. In win95 machines textures go through an extra mem copy to protect against case of BSOD happening. This will be a slow down for them because of lots of dynamic textures :/

<QUOTE>UT's open architecture allowed Epic to port it to the PS2 in a matter of weeks. That says something good in my book. ;) </QUOTE>

Any suitable high level interface would have allowed the same. They just didn't choose one (or they inherited an unsuitable iterface from software/glide renderer)

<QUOTE>
I find it interesting that people are accusing Epic of kissing up to Microsoft and selling out by using Direct3D as the main API for the next engine ... and nobody seems to have a problem with id only supporting OpenGL. Exclusively. :)
</QUOTE>

Mostly because people have a rapid hatred for MS and past DX has sucked :P .... gawd you don't think people actually use logic in these things ? :P

Besides OGL is cross-platform and is available on all but x-box, so choosing against it for a proprietry rapidly changing hacky PI generally goes against the grain :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#94 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-16 12:42:01
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Oh goody, personal attacks. How mature.  

#71, Crc, you know better than to sink to that level, at least you should if youre the original CRC from the OLD PC.  Please please please prove me wrong, provide me with sales figures for Loki's games.

#80 Rad, oh yeah ignorance. Gee wonder why so many windows people dislike the rabidly vocal linux community. It _might_ just be attitudes like that (and worse yet, slashdot)

lemme see here, where in N.Ireland can I walk in and buy Loki ports of games. *thinks hard*

*thinks more*

nowhere (and yes I know you can get downloads or order directly, guess what, no credit card so that rules that option out)

There are what, 15-20 Linux ports of games? Most 'big' games like UT, HL, Q3 have *nix ports of one sort of another. Still more have server software (that reliability thing again, which is fair enough) provided for them, often after much bitching on the community side.  

Wasnt there a big furore over Loki and quake 3, something about them shipping the cds in plain cardboard instead of the retail kits promised. Delay on the metal tin as well as I recall, was that ever sorted out ?

Oh and btw, Ive seen warez sites offering the Linux version of the Civilisation port and Myth. Guess that community isnt too proud to steal either.

wonder does being called a weenie annoy the Linux community as much as always reading people typing windoze does .....

really really nice to see open minded people post abou the topic and not make personal attacks on posters. DOH! guess what, its happened ! Hurrah, now we can affiliate with Slashdot and bleat about free beer, hot grits and petrified natalie portman.

Again folks, DISPROVE what Im saying, Im happy to be corrected. Im just recalling what I read in an online sight a while back that outlined Loki's practices. The sales are _not_ immense a mere drop in the ocean, I think Myth shifted maybe 2200 linux copies (vaguely remembered figure).  Prove me wrong, dont attack me personally (not that I give a fuck), show your debating skills and not your l33t side.

Ds
#95 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-05-16 16:06:49
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#88</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>People like to point at Quake3's OpenGL rendering and compare it directly to UT's and scream "Why can't UT render like that!?". </QUOTE>

Actually, I look at Half-life's OpenGL rendering, and that game supports Direct3D(though not very well). The thing that most people miss, though, is that UT's Direct3D rendering is probably the best example out there of what Direct3D can really do, and it's a very impressive game running on a GeForce at 32-bit colour. The real problem is that OpenGL seemed to have been more of an afterthought for UT, with Glide being first, and Direct3D coming next.

As far as Quake3 only supporting OpenGL, that's a GOOD thing. It was a slap in the face of 3dfx telling them to wake the fuck up and get their OpenGL support in order if they wanted to sell any more cards to the Quake players. 3dfx put off support of OpenGL on their cards for years, and even today their implementation of OpenGL drivers is nowhere near as good as it should be (considering they are one of the top companies for graphics chipsets/cards). Instead, 3dfx relied on their own proprietary API (Glide) for far too long trying to push others out of the market (pushing developers to produce Glide only games, threatening to sue and/or actually taking to court Creative Labs for creating a Glide interpreter for their cards, etc.), and finally one of the biggest (if not the biggest) names in software development stands up and says this is how it's going to be. id were going for the easiest cross-platform support they could, and OpenGL fit the bill. The fact that they didn't bend to any of the rest of the bullshit is just a bonus.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
(just need to add that Quake3 sucks so I don't feel bad for writing so many good things about it)
#96 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 18:43:13
none1a@home.com
Creole didn't Brandon (or a let some one using his name) post here saying none of Epics ports or Mac or Linux are done in house?
#97 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-16 19:21:49
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Brandon did UT's Linux port. Dunno about the Mac port.
C O M M E N T S
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