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Mac, Linux and money. Guess who won.
May 14th 2000, 18:54 CEST by andy

Blue is reporting that the next version of the Unreal engine will use only Direct3D, dropping support for both Glide and OpenGL.

This may seem like a strange decision, and our kooky friends at Slashdot will be working double-time with the Microsoft theories, but whatever your view of MS and Epic this is really just a case of market forecasting...



Judging by the comments I've read over on Blue's forum, people's immediate reaction to this decision is to think about how much Epic is going to lose.

Supporting Direct3D exclusively will make it much harder for Epic to release their games on Linux and the Mac, as Microsoft's proprietary API is available for neither and is never likely to be. OpenGL is available for both. This means that either Linux and the Mac are no longer a part of Epic's game plan, or there are plans to develop dedicated rendering engines for those platforms, which seems so unlikely that I think we can safely disregard it.

It also creates an interesting dichotomy between the two big boys of both gaming and licensing, with Epic supporting only Direct3D and Id Software supporting only OpenGL. (Expect a LithTech press release any time now...)

I've been doing a bit of graphics work myself recently and I can't for the life of me understand why any programmer would choose Direct3D over OpenGL. And I'm only looking at it from an ease-of-use perspective, regardless of multi-platform support. Even as an amateur, I'm sure in my own mind that John Carmack is doing things the right way - using OpenGL for graphics and DirectSound for audio. To me, at least, it makes sense.

So why is Epic going with Direct3D?

Well, one reason could be that, according to the news item over on Blue's, Epic has "direct input to Microsoft as to the development of the API". This, presumably, does not mean that Tim Sweeney gives Billy G a call every couple of weeks and asks for a new feature to be added.

Epic is no doubt providing guidance on how D3D should progress to make it more desirable for real-world development. After all, whatever programming gurus are tapping away at their keyboards in Microsoft HQ, none of them will have written a million-selling game with dozens of licensees.

So has Epic's decision been 'influenced' by Microsoft? Epic is moving towards development for Microsoft's X-Box console, and it is clearly advantageous to MS if one of the most influential game developers not only abandons both Linux and the Mac, but also publicly declares its support for Direct3D over OpenGL. Outside the hardcore gaming community, this move helps MS big time, and in return, MS will no doubt give Epic a helping hand with X-Box development.

When you look at the bottom line - because this is obviously a business decision, not a programming one - you can see that Epic is gambling on both the success of the X-Box console and the continued 'failure' of Linux and the Mac as gaming platforms.

Within just a few months of its release, X-Box games will probably be outselling PC games many times over. So ask yourself: If you were going to license a game engine, would you go with an Id engine and cross-develop for PC, Mac and Linux, or would you go with an Epic engine and develop for one less platform but sell many times more copies?

There's a lot of love for Linux out there in Coderworld, and releasing on the Mac is becoming more popular, but ultimately licensing decisions are made by biz folk, not developers, and for most of them the potential revenue from X-Box sales is going to be too good to resist. It's sad how the move towards Mac and Linux gaming is going to be turned around in a very short space of time, but as always, someone mentioned dollars and someone else was listening.

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#25 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-14 21:26:21
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#24</b> "szcx" wrote...
<QUOTE>it's a real shame that the DirectX group is too proud to redirect their d3d-fixing efforts into something more useful, like assisting hardware manufacturers in the creation of kickass win32 opengl drivers. </QUOTE>
That group and others like it go to great lengths to make it difficult to develope drivers. So they do do other stuff besides fixing bugs :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Timdog"
2000-05-14 21:33:54
TheTimdog@hotmail.com
szcx:
<quote>wow. way to eat the post there, crapspy. using the less-than sign is bad mojo.
</quote>

No, crapspy is written in  VB and your trashing a MS product.... I smell a conspiracy :)

<quote>it's what gives COM such a bad name</quote>

I kind of like COM, as it gives a nice amount of flexibility. Then again, I've never done anything more than smallish personal projects with either API. I suppose it could be a pain in professional development if you're not in the habit #define'ing all your interfaces.

<quote>it's a real shame that the DirectX group is too proud to redirect their d3d-fixing efforts into something more useful, like assisting hardware manufacturers in the creation of kickass win32 opengl drivers.
</quote>

I'm of the opinion that the competition created by having 2 API's is a good thing, its just unfortunate that MS owns one of them, especially now that its my preferred API.

-The Timdog<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "szcx"
2000-05-14 22:03:21
leslie.nassar@dot-at-dot.com http://www.dot-at-dot.com/
<b>#26</b> "Timdog" wrote...
<quote>No, crapspy is written in VB and your trashing a MS product.... I smell a conspiracy :)</quote>
don't tell anyone, but i'm really cmdrtaco.

<quote>I kind of like COM, as it gives a nice amount of flexibility.</quote>
used correctly, com is very powerful.  the problem is the way the directx group uses it.

(a lot of the time i don't care about cross-language support, i just want the flexible interface.  for those cases your basic c++ abstract base class works just fine)

<quote>I'm of the opinion that the competition created by having 2 API's is a good thing</quote>
agreed, having competing API's is a Good Thing.  it keeps the providers on their toes, trying to out-do each other.  but until recently, d3d hasn't been able to hold a candle to opengl, it's just hindered things like driver development.  hopefully now they've got a model that works, so directx 8 won't be yet another drastic change in direction.
#28 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 22:15:01
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#27</b>, szcx:
<QUOTE><QUOTE>
I'm of the opinion that the competition created by having 2 API's is a good thing
</QUOTE>
agreed, having competing API's is a Good Thing. it keeps the providers on their toes, trying to out-do each other.
</QUOTE>
The danger is when one of the providers is in a position to force their API upon a market that might otherwise not adopt it.

If D3D was openly developed and OGL was Microsoft's baby, and was going to be used by X-Box, which API would Epic have chosen to support?
#29 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-14 22:30:34
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
(just to annoy Andy, this is my initial gut/emotional reaction ;-)

Good, it's about time someone started seeing that 3DFX stopped giving a shit about quality 3d acceleration some time before they released the V2.

I just hope that the Unreal engine will do better in D3D than the original version did, cuz it sucked so bad in D3D on my TnT that I actually went out and bought a Poodoo2 solely to play Unreal.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Timdog"
2000-05-14 22:31:36
TheTimdog@hotmail.com
Andy:
<quote>If D3D was openly developed and OGL was Microsoft's baby, and was going to be used by X-Box, which API would Epic have chosen to support?
</quote>

Hmmm... That's probably tough to call. In no way am I speaking for Tim Sweeny et. al at epic, but I have a feeling that the <i>completeness</i> of DirectX as a whole may have influenced their decision. OpenGL is a graphics API, period. If epic has decided to tie themselves down to DirectSound, DirectInput, DirectPlay (which is finally looking pretty sweet if MS comes through on DX 8), etc. to the point where porting becomes a problem, then they might as well use the graphics API in that set if they feel more comfortable with it (and it'll keep the codebase more consistent).  On the other hand, I also think that the X-Box figured into this decision, as well as the ability to get a hotline with the developers of DirectX. As both you (Andy) and RahvinTaka pointed out, that's easier to do with a corporation than a standards committee.

-The Timdog<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "szcx"
2000-05-14 22:35:50
leslie.nassar@dot-at-dot.com http://www.dot-at-dot.com/
<b>#28</b> "Andy" wrote...

<quote>The danger is when one of the providers is in a position to force their API upon a market that might otherwise not adopt it.</quote>

that's a Bad Thing.  which is why i said until recently, direct3d has been a hinderance. it's a shame more companies aren't in the position to do the Right Thing like id.  of course, epic have had a glimpse at what microsoft have install for directx 8+, maybe they know something we don't?

i'm not sure it's really been competition from opengl's point of view.  the ARB just sits there with it's track record and solid api saying "is that all you got?"

<quote>If D3D was openly developed and OGL was Microsoft's baby, and was going to be used by X-Box, which API would Epic have chosen to support?</quote>

whichever one they think will give them the best revenue stream.  if microsoft have promised them a sweet x-box deal, it's an easy decision for the epic bean counters to make.
#32 by "Nick"
2000-05-14 22:43:50
OpenGL is dead. Get over it. Reason's are simple... OpenGL is controlled by ARB which is a <b>big, slow and monolitic</b> board made up of companies who don't give a damn about OpenGL as a gaming API. This is why TONS of "critical" gaming extensions will never become part of the API because, for example, extension is not compatible when you run OpenGL app on a display somewhere else... I mean... who cares?! 2% of OpenGL users might need that but gamers certainly do not. Tim really tried to work with ARB and he submitted with a good faith several proposals and they were all rejected. He went to Microsoft and they were more than happy to take his advice. With every iteration D3D is getting better and better and OpenGL stays in a single place just rotting away (if you need more evdience just check how long it took ARB to approve 1.2 standard. check thew time between 1.1 and 1.2 release... PATHETIC!)

You be the judge...

PS: Don't get me wrong... I love OpenGL because of its syntax and clarity but it's times are over.
#33 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-14 22:44:02
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#31</b> "szcx" wrote...
<QUOTE>#28 "Andy" wrote...


The danger is when one of the providers is in a position to force their API upon a market that might otherwise not adopt it.


that's a Bad Thing. which is why i said until recently, direct3d has been a hinderance. it's a shame more companies aren't in the position to do the Right Thing like id. of course, epic have had a glimpse at what microsoft have install for directx 8+, maybe they know something we don't?

i'm not sure it's really been competition from opengl's point of view. the ARB just sits there with it's track record and solid api saying "is that all you got?"
</QUOTE>

Yup. DX8 is going to have all sorts of neatness (like both pixel and vertex shaders) that while possible in OGL, take a lot longer to code and are not always optimal for the underlying hardware. If I ever go to D3D, I think that willl be the reason. (Oh and also the DX team has made sure that DX is the only API with *good* multi-monitor support;D)
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-14 23:00:54
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#32</b> "Nick" wrote...
<QUOTE>OpenGL is dead. Get over it. Reason's are simple... OpenGL is controlled by ARB which is a big, slow and monolitic board made up of companies who don't give a damn about OpenGL as a gaming API. This is why TONS of "critical" gaming extensions will never become part of the API because, for example, extension is not compatible when you run OpenGL app on a display somewhere else... I mean... who cares?! 2% of OpenGL users might need that but gamers certainly do not.</QUOTE>

In the future gamers will, this the ARB provides for.

<QUOTE>Tim really tried to work with ARB and he submitted with a good faith several proposals and they were all rejected. </QUOTE>

Maybe he tried to submit the proposals in "good faith" but they were bad engineering. Quick hacks to a problem that would disappear soon (ie not a problem in Win2K only 95/98). Besides the problems were partly concerned with him not understanding OGL (or if he did understand refusing to engineer his app apropriately).

<QUOTE>He went to Microsoft and they were more than happy to take his advice. With every iteration D3D is getting better and better and OpenGL stays in a single place just rotting away (if you need more evdience just check how long it took ARB to approve 1.2 standard. check thew time between 1.1 and 1.2 release... PATHETIC!) </QUOTE>

There are those of the community who like this. Most prefer not to learn to a new API every 6 months. DX changes constantly because MS makes mistakes. OGL changes sometimes to add features and I guess they must fix mistakes (anyone know of any "mistakes" they fixed ????). 1.2 took so long because it was well thought out. Look at the longevity of OGL. Excepting Multi-texturing and polygonoffset you could run 90% of current OGL games using the API of 5 years ago. Try that with D3D.

The ARB has been slow but there seems to be more rampant innovation from vendors at the moment. As these innovations become widespread they will be incorporated into the spec. I much prefer a well thought out plan instead of a wil charge. Tends to be healthier too ... how bout you ?

<QUOTE>
You be the judge...

PS: Don't get me wrong... I love OpenGL because of its syntax and clarity but it's times are over. </QUOTE>

Gladly I can say you are sadly mistaken. OGL is already years ahed in some places (ie BroadcastGL) and is the main API used by researchers. With iD championing it in the games sector, comercial app designers using, the military supporting it in their sector, academics supporting it in their sector I really don't think it is going to go away as you seem to want. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "RAD Kade 1"
2000-05-14 23:31:33
kmradlof@colby.edu http://rad.capecod.net/
Bleah. Whatever happened to interoperability? *sigh*

And re: ego... Tim hired Greenmarine, what more can I say? ;P

*goes back to playing his Loki ports*

-RAD Kade 1
(an upset Linux hacker)
#36 by "Apache"
2000-05-14 23:33:17
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
heh, actually greenmarine's really nice :)
#37 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 23:49:06
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#36</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
heh, actually greenmarine's really nice :)
</QUOTE>
Something you want to share with us mate? *g*
#38 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-14 23:52:07
rofl.
 
I didn't even know he swung that way.
 
*grin*


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-14 23:52:42
not that there's anything wrong with that.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Apache"
2000-05-15 00:15:14
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
andy: outside of cliffyb, he (GM) was the only epic guy who would give me the time of day at e3 :)
#41 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 00:21:32
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#40</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
andy: outside of cliffyb, he (GM) was the only epic guy who would give me the time of day at e3 :)
</QUOTE>
When were you <i>inside</i> cliffyb? :)

I'm shocked that the other guys weren't falling all over themselves to get to you. I mean, you're Apache, gaming journo numero uno, right?

Ah well, more fool them, I guess.
#42 by "Apache"
2000-05-15 00:26:42
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
andy: you know I'm into the man-love ;)
#43 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-15 00:29:16
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Interesting thread re. D3D v OpenGL. In general OpenGL has had a lot more engineering behind it. Unfortunately it is relatively slow to adapt to changes in the industry. Sure it has extension support, but that has it's drawbacks. For one it doesn't push IHVs to support the extension supported features. Second they become deprecated and thus you don't see them lasting into the next iteration of the spec. Note how multitexturing has been folded in and the extension effectively killed. It won't be long until drivers don't support the extension and the old apps that are not being actively maintained will die because of a lack of support.
#44 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 00:29:29
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#42</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
andy: you know I'm into the man-love ;)
</QUOTE>
Heh, and the quote of the nanosecond is currently:
<quote>
"Haven't been there to take a head count."
-- by: Houston
</quote>
*g*
#45 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 00:35:53
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
hrm

Unreal, great in glide, dog in d3d, dog in Gl

tested on, S3&Voodoo1, Banshee, Voodoo2&TNT combo

Unreal Tournament, nifty in glide, dog in Gl, more than playable in d3d

Tested on Tnt2u, Geforce DDr, Matrox g400

at the moment, Gl wont even run UT, crashes due to some odd texture call by infiltration from the ini. I can sit in 32bit at 8x600 and get 50+fps continually with a bit of tweakery.

UT is a dog for resources tho, doesnt behave anywhere near as nicely as Quake3 does, but its still playable.  

Wheel of time, hammers D3d and GL, and unless you have specced up machines, its really a glide based game (unreal legacy code showing through). That said, it _Does_ look gorgeous due to excellent maps and well done textures.

Klingon Academy, fails to run, end of story.



Epic decide to go D3d for their next engine, fine, maybe itll run properly on hardware this time instead of Tim et al having to play catchup.  Its not a snub to linux or mac gamers, as  they make up bugger all of the market and those people I know running linux tend to run the servers and play from Win9x boxes _for better hardware support_.

Most of the big cards out there have excellent drivers, d3d being up there and updated with every DX iteration.  GL drivers, range from the excellent (Nvidia) to woeful 3dfx, Ati... Glide is now open source, and effectively dead as an API (you can have the code, you just cant implement it on a non 3dfx card if I read the EULA correctly). Heck if Creative Labs can put a (VERY) good Glide/D3d wrapper out for their TNT cards......

Oh and I have a friend with an Imac who likes playing UT, he ends up running it in _software_ mode. All this bleating and moaning, and no ones said if the next engine will have a software Rasteriser or not. I know ... lets ask the people who actually KNOW instead of mindless speculating .. Greenmarine, Warren (and others).. care to comment?

Ds
#46 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 00:42:07
We are also assuming that whatever comes next out of epic will even be worth worrying about.
 
There is a fair chance that it could just be crap.   Who cares if Daikatana only runs on TNT cards?  Nobody wants to play it anyway.   (intentional harsh overgeneralization hereby noted for the anal-retentive people who were going to reply specifically to it)

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 00:44:19
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#46</b>, Bad_CRC:
<QUOTE>
(intentional harsh overgeneralization hereby noted for the anal-retentive people who were going to reply specifically to it)
</QUOTE>
Hey, leave that kettle alone!
#48 by "Nick"
2000-05-15 03:54:41
<b>#34</b>, RahvinTaka said:
<QUOTE>There are those of the community who like this. Most prefer not to learn to a new API every 6 months. DX changes constantly because MS makes mistakes. OGL changes sometimes to add features and I guess they must fix mistakes (anyone know of any "mistakes" they fixed ????). 1.2 took so long because it was well thought out. Look at the longevity of OGL. </QUOTE>

I use both OGL and DX (I used DX since v3) and DX8 has now overtaken OGL in both speed and functionality. It has taken MS 8 iterations but they have gotten it finally right. I don't see why anyone would wanna use OGL again. Sure it's a bit easier to use but you will pay with driver problems (OGL drivers from most vid card manufacturers are flakey and there are big time inconsistencies between implementations). DX8's per-pixel shading is awesome (implemented in GeForce2) and OGL doesn't have that functionality. Realism produced by DX apps will be like 20x better than similar programs written in OGL.

DX8 will change the minds of a lot of programmers this year and OGL will be used in a single digit percentage of games.
#49 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-15 05:49:55
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
As the author of the news story in question, I figure I should step in here... :)

When Brandon told us this, I have to admit, I was a little surprised, but at the same time, I respect their ability to be completely non-politically correct in this manner.

The fact of the matter is, that while Carmack and the Slashdot crowd loves to advocate cross-platform development, the money just isn't there. A publisher of a "bestselling" mac title revealed some numbers to me during the show that were downright shocking. Compared to consoles, PC games sell pretty poorly. Compared to PC games...Mac games don't sell at all, even when they do sell.

And Linux? Don't even joke about that. The costs involved in burning the CDs alone will never be recouped on a Linux game release.

If this trend continues (and I don't see why it won't) expect some major companies to pull completely out of Mac game ports. Even with over a million iMac sales out there, those people just aren't buying any games.

I think Epic may be hurting their licensees by not offering a better cross-platform package, and may wind up crippling Mac gamers of several A-list titles as a result, but the real money is in PS2 and X-Box development, and they are taking that one by the horns.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "None-1a"
2000-05-15 06:25:37
none1a@home.com
Um, I've just got to say this most PC developers (and hardware venders)have some say in what featrues are added to DirectX. Also there are some features of D3D that would be extreamly difficult to program on OGL (for example texture compresion is built in with D3D, but would need to be programed with OGL.

As for losing Mac and Linux support. Since Apple has made such a big come back MS has started to show some interest in the Mac platform (with newer versions of IE being ported) it's possible that MS and Apple may be working on some version of DirectX for the platform (they have worked together before on the TrueType format so it can happen again, even more likley since Apple has a new OS and MS had a new version of DX in the works). Linux support is a little wired but basicly Linux as an OS has more to gain the Epic does by continuing support for Unreal engines.

One last thing Epics records might show that the majority of develers are asking for just the D3D version, if this is the case there just might not be enough demand for other API's by outside develors to justify continued development in house (anyone else could add support for OGL and with some work on the contract that work could become the property of Epic)
#51 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 06:54:22
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#48</b> "Nick" wrote...
<QUOTE>I use both OGL and DX (I used DX since v3) and DX8 has now overtaken OGL in both speed and functionality. It has taken MS 8 iterations but they have gotten it finally right. I don't see why anyone would wanna use OGL again. Sure it's a bit easier to use but you will pay with driver problems (OGL drivers from most vid card manufacturers are flakey and there are big time inconsistencies between implementations).</QUOTE>

Yup hate those inconsistancies :P

<QUOTE>DX8's per-pixel shading is awesome (implemented in GeForce2) and OGL doesn't have that functionality. </QUOTE>

Have you actually used DX8's per-pixel shading ? If so, and you aren't under a NDA can you explain to me what great feature it has over OGL which as far as I can see supports all pixel shading equivelents.

The only thing that I know of that DX8 has better than OGL will be vertex level shaders. And these are very very kewl :P.

<QUOTE>Realism produced by DX apps will be like 20x better than similar programs written in OGL. </QUOTE>

*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*
I start to get a little sceptical when people try to quantify reality .. especially when they give an exact figure. I would go to the extent to say DX8's main advantage is not better chance to create reality but better chance to create non-reality. I suspect cartoon engines will come in vogue as will a whole heap of different rendering styles. All due to introduction of vertex shaders (thou I am assuming vertex shaders end up being implemented well).

<QUOTE>DX8 will change the minds of a lot of programmers this year and OGL will be used in a single digit percentage of games. </QUOTE>

Perhaps. But for what reason ? Personally I don't think the answer is going to be be that DX8 is a technicakl superior API.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#52 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-15 07:32:01
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#51</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote...
<QUOTE>I suspect cartoon engines will come in vogue </QUOTE>

And Q3A (<i>Quake, 3rd Attempt</i>) seems to be leaning in that direction already.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#53 by "Tyrant"
2000-05-15 07:37:50
GM's <A href="http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/finger.pl?id=266&time=20000515002604">plan file</A> has been updated.
#54 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-05-15 07:46:42
brandon@epicgames.com http://unreal.epicgames.com
Sure, focusing on Direct3D will make ports difficult, but we are going to be shipping a game on Playstation 2 and I never said we were dropping Linux or Mac.

Our Mac ports are done by an external company anyway.  If they look at our stuff and say "we can port that and make it cool" we'll absolutely continue to have Mac ports done.  But Epic has never done any internal Mac development and isn't going to start any time soon.

I don't see why everyone is up in arms about this.  Tim has posted essentially the same comments on the tech page months ago.  (Perhaps even last year) talking about how our Windows focus from now on would be Direct3D.
#55 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 08:28:02
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#54</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote...
<QUOTE>Sure, focusing on Direct3D will make ports difficult, but we are going to be shipping a game on Playstation 2 and I never said we were dropping Linux or Mac. </QUOTE>

Company rarely tell you that they are going to shaft you but it happens. And as Epic has very adamant (sp?) about supporting windows tech you can see where people could think you were dropping linux/mac/whatever.

<QUOTE>I don't see why everyone is up in arms about this. Tim has posted essentially the same comments on the tech page months ago. (Perhaps even last year) talking about how our Windows focus from now on would be Direct3D. </QUOTE>

I don't think it is the act that worries people but the fact you officialize it seems to lend weight to people who want to jump up and say DX is a better platform.

( BTW This next statement is not meant to offend but it has to be said :P. )

One of the main reasons OGL Unreal sucked was because the developers didn't know how to use it. (soz ). But because you don't want to publish your ignorance peoplle assume you knew what you were doing and it was OGL that wasn't up to the challenge. This is what offends me the most :D
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#56 by "Nick"
2000-05-15 08:33:52
<quote>Have you actually used DX8's per-pixel shading ? If so, and you aren't under a NDA can you explain to me what great feature it has over OGL which as far as I can see supports all pixel shading equivelents.
</quote>

OGL is missing some blends... there are some extensions *gasp* but they are not as nice to use and it rarely works with drivers I use.

<quote>*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*
I start to get a little sceptical when people try to quantify reality .. especially when they give an exact figure.
</quote>

Per pixel shading is amazing. I can't give you any shots to see for yourself just yet. Wait and you'll see what kind of stuff I'm talking about (hint: lights and texture interactions/animations look like photographs).
#57 by "Nick"
2000-05-15 08:33:53
<quote>Have you actually used DX8's per-pixel shading ? If so, and you aren't under a NDA can you explain to me what great feature it has over OGL which as far as I can see supports all pixel shading equivelents.
</quote>

OGL is missing some blends... there are some extensions *gasp* but they are not as nice to use and it rarely works with drivers I use.

<quote>*beep* *beep* *beep* *beep*
I start to get a little sceptical when people try to quantify reality .. especially when they give an exact figure.
</quote>

Per pixel shading is amazing. I can't give you any shots to see for yourself just yet. Wait and you'll see what kind of stuff I'm talking about (hint: lights and texture interactions/animations look like photographs).
#58 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 09:05:01
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#56</b> "Nick" wrote...
<QUOTE>OGL is missing some blends... there are some extensions *gasp* but they are not as nice to use and it rarely works with drivers I use. </QUOTE>

imaging 1.2 extensions ? Yup I wish they were standard but unfortunately they are not yet accelerated in hardware yet so it would be a software path.

<QUOTE>Per pixel shading is amazing. I can't give you any shots to see for yourself just yet. Wait and you'll see what kind of stuff I'm talking about (hint: lights and texture interactions/animations look like photographs). </QUOTE>

umm yes I know. But per pixel shading is possible with OGL ... I basically want to know what per pixel operations are available in DX8 that can not be done in OGL :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#59 by "RedLine"
2000-05-15 15:07:35
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
I've been thinking about it and you know, it's funny... All the FPS games I really enjoy have all be created with various versions of id's Quake engines... <B>id</B> can't seem to make a real game, but they sure as heck can make technology that lets other people make real games.

Also, Linux and Mac are really fringe platforms anyway, and will struggle to be anything else because of this circle:  Take Linux right now, what is needed is a windowing envroinment into which companies can implement soild OpenGL drivers... we've seen this happen with X and Mesa, but it is still very much ugly stuff...

So your above-average person on the street looks at Linux and Windows for their new self-built PC... in Linux they see a stable OS with terrible hardware support (You have to use like two year old hardware to be sure of full support, especially for sound and video) and no games or familar software... eg, yes you can get "a paint program" for Linux, but you can't get <B>the</B> paint program you were used to using on your old PC.....  So as much as your above-average person would like to switch to an open OS, lack of support for their new toys, and lack of their favourite programs forces them to bite the bullet and get the latest MS OS...

So in turn the game developers look at the platform and see there are not enough hardware companies doing driver development... they see there are not enough people buying/using the OS and they see it as a big risk to develop games on it, so they don't... or they try to port them over at a later date

In turn the hardware manufacturers look at the platform and see all this and go "Well, no point making drivers for that platform if no-one is making any decent software, and people are not using it for mainstream computing"

And so it goes on... Ok it might not be quite as bad as I make it out to be, but the point is, while everyone is relatively happy with an extablished system - and admit it, even though MS have bullied people around and been pretty unplesant, you at least have a compatible platform, even if it is a closed-source, buggy and unstable one - things just don't change that much... it takes something out of the routine for business to invest in another platform.

That is what Linux needs... people to put up a load of money and be prepaired in the short - medium term to see very little of that money come back.  It just seems these days with ever decreasing product dev cycles, and ever decreasing profit margins, most companies just don't have the kind of capital it would take available... and if they do, they probably have more short-term "get more money quick" ideas, and so they never spend that money to build a new platform.

Anyways... at the end of the day, you have to remember this is only one company, and it's only Epic.... None of their games or a game done with their engine has ever held my long-term interest... UT was fun for a few weeks, but then it got boring... so who really cares.... of course you might feel differently, but for me there's plenty of companies out there that make better technology, and there are plenty of companies out there that make better games with that better technology.

One of the best parts of the PC is that you are free to choose what you use, so everyone can go their own road.  I guess sometimes this means you have Part X and you need Part Y to play this really hot new game... but then it is the same in console land... you might have a Playstation, but there is this totally cool game on the Dreamcast... so do you buy both consoles, or do you just sigh and wish you could play the game ?  At least with a PC, if you need a 600MHz+ CPU and a GeForce2 to play the latest new game, you can at some point justify the upgrade... but try to justify having two or three similar consoles, just to play games that are only available on a particular platform.

Hmm... was that on topic ? ;-)

I guess my point here can be summed up as "Who cares what Epic does... if you want to play one of their games, you're gonna have to get whatever technology you need to run it"... If it means just a different operating system, at least with the PC, you could always dual boot between Linux and Windows.... it's not like a console where you always have to have seperate hardware.
#60 by "RandoM"
2000-05-15 15:13:23
random1@speakeasy.org http://www.clan51.com
Lose? HA!

Not supporting Mac and Linux will actually cause them to save money, unless those ports were being heavily subsidized by somebody else.

When most games sell considerably less than 100k copies for the platform with the lion's share of the market, developing for other platforms just doesn't make sense from a pure bean counter point of view.

What I would do in their case is ask Apple to foot the bill for porting, at least for the Mac version.  FPS gaming doesn't really fit the demographic for your "typical" mac user, though.
#61 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-05-15 17:21:28
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
'Blue is reporting that the next version of the Unreal engine will use only Direct3D, dropping support for both Glide and OpenGL.'

hmm...crapspy doesn't like quoting from the original article ;)

In my opinion, this is a good move by Epic (though it wouldn't be a good move for other developers), because, quite frankly, Unreal/UT's OpenGL support sucks, and Glide is a proprietary API that never should've lived this long to begin with. With all of that said, I prefer playing most games in OpenGL when the option is available, but with UT, the Direct3d support works so well (and the OpenGL support so poorly) that there's really nothing I can think of, under an MS OS, that gives them any reason to support the other APIs.

Alternatively, they could hire someone that knows how to write good code for OpenGL rendering, or is it possible that with Unreal/UT they've found some limitations to OpenGL that just don't fit with what they're trying to do with the engine? I guess it's really time for me to start looking for the info on why they are doing this (not to mention the validity of it) and what their plans are for the Mac and Linux platforms.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#62 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 17:59:17
Well if they aren't dropping the ports, then where the hell is the story here?
 
GM has been saying the next engine is going to be D3D for months.


sheesh.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#63 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 19:00:50
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
/me Fetches 2x4

/me proceeds to smack the crap out of Blue

/me reminds Loonyboi to smack Blue for posting about Planetcrap again


Ds
#64 by "None-1a"
2000-05-15 19:01:51
none1a@home.com
Yeap there going to support the ports (just by having a second company do it, like I said before the wording of the contract more then likly has the ports belonging to Epic not the company that did the work).
#65 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 19:29:27
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#63</b>, Darkseid-[D!]:
<QUOTE>
/me reminds Loonyboi to smack Blue for posting about Planetcrap again
</QUOTE>
There's nothing wrong with them linking to us, so long as people ignore the trolls and first-posters when they arrive.

So you know, I sent the link to Blue's myself. This is the only site I write for at the moment and when there's a story that I think would be of interest outside PC's limited readership, I'm going to let sites such as Blue's know about it.

I'm not going to live in fear of a bunch of trolls turning up, and I'd suggest that other people shouldn't either.
#66 by "Greg"
2000-05-15 22:00:51
Since no one has posted this, I will. I just saw on VoodooExtreme that Tim Sweeney posted clarifications to this mess. It boils down to this:

No Glide or S3 Metal.

That's it. OpenGL will still be supported, for Windows, Mac, and Linux.

Greg
#67 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-15 22:28:19
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>it's possible that MS and Apple may be working on some version of DirectX for the platform </quote>

I posed this question to the head of the DirectX team in an interview a couple of months ago and he specifically said they had no intention of porting DirectX to either the MacOS or Linux.
#68 by "RAD Kade 1"
2000-05-15 23:12:42
kmradlof@colby.edu http://rad.capecod.net/
Sigh.
<QUOTE>
And Linux? Don't even joke about that. The costs involved in burning the CDs alone will never be recouped on a Linux game release.
</QUOTE>
Um, then why does <A HREF="http://www.lokigames.com/">Loki</A> keep rolling out the games?
<QUOTE>
... in Linux they see a stable OS with terrible hardware support (You have to use like two year old hardware to be sure of full support, especially for sound and video) and no games or familar software...
</QUOTE>
Um, do I actually have to tell you what a silly statement that is? :P

-RAD Kade 1
#69 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 23:32:43
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Loki does it to shut the linux weenies up, theyre not doing it for the money as I doubt very very much if their costs are being met by the sales.

course theres that wonderful side of the *nix community which demands everything be open source or 'free beer'.  Nice to see communism has found a new home in the elightened 90s and into the next milenium.


Key part of Sweeneys post, refers to _server_ owners .. not *nix weenies playing the games...


Ds
#70 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 00:21:10
none1a@home.com
Steve I said is was possible, not probable. And it still is, assuming some one higher up signed a deal with Apple the DirectX team comments mean nothing. The fact is a lot has happened since your interview Apple has grown in market share and MS's DOJ problem have compounded greatly since then, and what better way to show the government the new Microsoft then to port your own API to a reviels system?

I'd be interested to hear what the DX team and the higher ups as Microsoft say about it now that all of this has happened. As well as well as if they think at some point say 5-10 years from now it will happen.

As for DX being ported to Linux I agree that we'll never see this happen do to the open source every thing and antimicrosoft ideas running through the linux community.
#71 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-16 00:41:18
<b>#69</b> "Darkseid-[D!]" wrote...
<quote> Loki does it to shut the linux weenies up, theyre not doing it for the money as I doubt very very much if their costs are being met by the sales. </quote>
 
A company in business to lose money with no purpose other than to shut weenies up...
 
sounds just a bit like you are a clueless moron DS.
 
no offense intended, of course.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#72 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 00:44:18
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>The fact is a lot has happened since your interview Apple has grown in market share</quote>
Wow, all of this in two months? Impressive...

But seriously, here's a perfect example of the current state of Mac gaming: there is no plan for Myst III on the Macintosh. This despite the original appearing first on that platform and a developer (Presto Studios) that has a track record for Mac games.

Apple may very well be growing in market share (though I'd be curious of your source for that), but the state of Mac gaming is rather bleak. Sales of Mac games are not good, at least according to people I spoke with at E3. I only saw Mac games at the Infogrames booth.

And Apple itself elected not to even bother with E3, which is a bad sign.

<quote>and what better way to show the government the new Microsoft then to port your own API to a reviels system? </quote>
Hmm... Office, which is a bigger revenue generator for Microsoft than Windows, is already on the Mac, and obviously that doesn't mean anything to the DOJ... I'm guessing that porting DirectX would be a meaningless gesture as far as they're concerned.
#73 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-16 00:47:13
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#68</b> "RAD Kade 1" wrote...
<QUOTE>Um, then why does Loki keep rolling out the games? </QUOTE>

Because they're paid by original publishers to port titles - they don't rely exclusively on sales (at least I assume so). As long as there are companies that want their games to appear on multiple platforms, Loki will stay in business. But as publishers see the numbers that comes out of this...well...I think in a couple of years Loki will be back to making one game a year again.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#74 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-16 00:47:41
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>A company in business to lose money with no purpose other than to shut weenies up... </quote>
While it's highly unlikely they're doing it to shut people up, they may still not be making any money. They could be willing to absorb short-term losses in the hope that Linux gaming really takes off, at which point they'll be the premiere Linux publisher.

It's a risk, but certainly not an unprecedented one. Then again, they could be selling millions of copies.

I wonder if there's much of a Linux warez scene? If so, talk about shooting yourselves in the foot...
C O M M E N T S
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