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No unofficial Duke shots?
January 21st 2001, 06:36 CET by Andy

As you've probably heard already, 3D Realms may try to stop reviewers from using unofficial DNF screenshots. Otherwise, they wouldn't be thinking about suing them, would they?

This story has been neatly dodged by 3D Realms, which is partly my own fault due to some poor wording in an article I wrote. To set the record straight, there has been no official 'announcement', just some info provided by George Broussard during a PlanetCrap chat a few days ago.

But the fact remains that 3D Realms is considering how to stop reviewers from taking their own DNF screenshots, possibly by crippling the game or using a license agreement.

And according to George, he hasn't ruled out taking legal action against reviewers who break the rules.

Asked if 3DR "would sue a publication if they didn't use official DNF shots in a review", he replied:

Not sure. We only plan to release a handful and would prefer those were used like in the Duke 3D reviews. We really don't want web guys finishing the game on day one and posting 40 shots of DNF in a review. So, we'll have to think about that one a bit.

As was pointed out during the discussion here the other night, one potential problem with forcing any publication to only use official shots is that sometimes those shots don't accurately represent the game.

For instance, I noticed this comment over on Glide Underground, a site which also picked up on George's comments:

I for one want to show the shots that I as a reviewer saw rather than stuff that looks like nothing like the game. We saw one case of this already -- Trespasser preview screens, released by Dreamworks, looked nothing like the final game and yet were still placed on the shipping box.

Consider, also, the screenshots for Giants. If only official screenshots had been used by people reviewing that game, they'd have included all of the gore and much-touted nudity, even though these features were toned down at the last minute.

And ironically, a screenshot on the Duke Nukem 3D box -- in my opinion the best screenshot -- featured a level that apparently wasn't even included in the game. I certainly don't remember the level, which has a rather distinctive building, but have a look for yourself.

So of course, this all comes down to a few questions:

Should reviewers, or any other journalists, be prevented from posting their own screenshots of a game? It has been well-argued by now that such a rule would be difficult to enforce, but is it right for a developer to even try enforcing it?

Can we be sure that developers will provide shots that give a true impression of their game, showing both the good and the bad? Do we want to see screenshots that give us a good idea of what we'll be getting for our money, or do we want to see only the best bits, along with features/levels/models/weapons that possibly aren't even in the finished game?

Or if you just don't care about sites being hit with rules like this... why not?

C O M M E N T S

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#285 by "ChrisJohnson"
2001-01-24 07:00:22

Me:

<quote>But then again, in the old Quake2Test, the explosions there were just 2d avis ripped form Photoshop</quote>

That should have read ripped from *Pyromania* not Photoshop. :P

#286 by "None1a"
2001-01-24 07:11:35

ChrisJohnson (#284):
<quote>However (and I should have said this before) the rest of the content looks pretty damn spiffy.</quote>

Every thing else looks rather good (that buggy could use a bit of tweaking, look like it's been smashed a bit). I hope your right about the explosions being placeholder art (right now they look like a photoshop overlay with some really bad smoke effects painted in).

I just relised the laser isn't a laser at all, it's a rocket (look just before the laser looking thing).

#287 by "ChrisJohnson"
2001-01-24 07:17:37

<quote>I just relised the laser isn't a laser at all, it's a rocket (look just before the laser looking thing). </quote>

Holy crap, so it is. I seriously thought that was part of the radar station in the background. 'SWhat I get for concentrating on the effects instead of the overall shot.

I still say the effect looks a tad... I dunno... off. But not nearly as much as it would have had it been just laser fire.

#288 by "None1a"
2001-01-24 07:35:36

ChrisJohnson (#287):
<quote>I still say the effect looks a tad... I dunno... off. But not nearly as much as it would have had it been just laser fire.</quote>

Yeah if it had look correct some one would have have poped up after I first called it a laser to say hay idiot it's not a laser. I belive one of the reasons is that the trail seams to be unnaturaly covering part of the rocket (or what ever that projectile is).

#289 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-24 07:54:17

Was shown this by Matthias Worch:

<a href="http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/filters/products/screenindex/0,11104,913941,00.html">383 Screenshots of MGS 2</a>

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)

#290 by "toadwarrior"
2001-01-24 08:13:54

Anyone notice it seems to always be the assholes at Gamespot that post way too many screenshots?

#291 by "GlenDahlgren"
2001-01-24 08:35:10

Holy crap. This is exactly why content creators sometimes like to exert a little influence on what is released. Hell, you've got the whole game there as a FLIP-IT book! Imagine another 50 web sites doing exactly the same thing. The only people who would actually look through them all (anyone?) are those people who are really excited about the game, the people whose final experience might actually be ruined by being exposed to too many secrets.

And maybe there are people out there that can take fantastic screenshots on their own; it's my experience that they're in the minority. Most of the shots I see originating from the web suck. If you made a game, would you want the screenshots out there to suck? This isn't about misrepresting the game. This is about showing a game in its best light. Is that a bad thing? Or do you want your opinion of a game to be formed by 100 pictures taken 10 inches away from a lousy wall texture?

My $.02.

#292 by "Morn"
2001-01-24 10:33:54

szcx (#268):

I refer you, sir, to post #203 :)

Doh! Sorry.

- Morn

#293 by "MaverickUK"
2001-01-24 11:05:30

I can't believe the massive generalisations people are making here!

I'm sure the developers of the game do spend alot of time trying to make their screenshots look good, just like PR people spend ages hyping up their new product.

Do you really think all reviewers just pump out 150 really crappy shots? Shame on you... Make these comments, but back them up with evidence... and please don't label the entire gaming media idiots.

--
Mav

#294 by "Needle"
2001-01-24 12:54:56

[#291] GlenDahlgren,

This isn't about misrepresting the game. This is about showing a game in its best light. Is that a bad thing? Or do you want your opinion of a game to be formed by 100 pictures taken 10 inches away from a lousy wall texture?

Personally, I want my opinion of a game to be formed by actually playing the game.  Screenshots, good or bad, can only give an impression of how good or bad the game might be, but I want that impression to be formed by both good and bad screenshots.

Showing a game in it's best light isn't a bad thing, but showing a game only in it's best light is.  I want to see the good side of a game, but I also want to see the not-so-good side of it.  As much as I'd like to be able to, I haven't got unlimited funds to run out and buy every game that hits the market, so seeing both sides of game can only help me with my buying decision.  Afterall, if I listened to, and believed every company, ad campaign or promo I would have to be convinced that every product ever released is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  What's so great about sliced bread anyways?  Have people become so lazy that bread sliced by a machine is equated to the second greatest thing on earth?

Anyways, while things like Gamespot's coverage of MGS 2 is just plain insane, if I'm afraid my experience might be ruined by looking at them I just won't look at them, and that's precisely why I didn't look at them.  Not past the first page of thumbnails anyways.

Like you said, it's not about misrepresenting the game.  There's nothing wrong with a developer creating a perfectly laid-out battle scene to illustrate a shoot-out that could potentially happen in the game, even if it is unlikely you'll encounter a situation that visually inspiring when you actually play the game yourself.  But by the same token, since a screenshot can only show what's actually going on in the game, a bad screenshot isn't misrepresenting the game either.  And looking at the game from both angles is good for consumers, who might be having trouble deciding which of the two hot games just released to pick up.

But since we know how this topic originated, it's all hypothetical anyways =)

#295 by "Apache"
2001-01-24 13:00:14

to quote one of the PlanetSide guys about the wacky explosins:

That's a by-product of early development when certain art is put into the engine, but hasn't been tweaked to "gel" with the rest of the graphics. The explosion is a good example of that -- it actually does look out of place.

remember those shots are about six months old...

#296 by "Apache"
2001-01-24 13:36:40

glen wrote:

just wait until the entire 10 minutes DVD movie trailer of the MGS2 movie is released on the web! sites will have stills of every_frame, and people will be clicking on each and every shot (console players are notorious sauages).

anyhow, those are just shots from the movie they released. the demo is coming soon, just wait to see all those shots ;)

ps - update the wheel of time page!!!

#297 by "Vengeance"
2001-01-24 14:01:02

Hmm, <a href="http://www.gamespy.com/editorials/january01/StratGuides/">Another</a> reference to the crapper. Seems the gamespy boys didn't really leave after all ;)

I don't remember George saying the second quote though.

V

#298 by "Apache"
2001-01-24 14:20:31

george said that on the blah blah blah subcrap... I didn't know fargo read that one haha

#299 by "Apache"
2001-01-24 14:37:35

I just downloaded and watched that ten minute MGS2 trailer. I wonder if PC game production will ever reach that level of quality? Somehow I really doubt it...

#300 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-24 16:02:20

I just downloaded and watched that ten minute MGS2 trailer. I wonder if PC game production will ever reach that level of quality? Somehow I really doubt it...

Sure they could, if someone would fund them. Konami is probably spending $40 million bucks on that game. Throw that kind of cash at a PC game and it would be that high-quality. Hell, you could hire Ridley Scott to direct and edit your trailer.

#301 by "Apache"
2001-01-24 16:04:53

True, a lot of movie directors/producers are getting into games (Clive Barker, Speilburg, etc) but I doubt any of them will ever invest 40 million buckaroos into a PC project. :)

#302 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2001-01-24 16:54:08

From the GaySpy article: "If publishers succeed in shutting down unofficial strategy guides"

A few thoughts and questions for the peeps at da crap:

1. That will never happen under the current laws. They'll have to change the law first.
2. Mr. Bauman - Which magazine do you be scribbling for?
3. Chris Johnson - You remind me of my siamese brother.
4. Gene Gene the dancing Machine - You sure can boogie bro!
5. Pianist - Go suck on an Organ
6. Derek Smart - My lower back hurts, are you using your mind powers on me?
7. Apache - If you were to have an indian name, what would it be?
8. charred - In eight words or less, describe the loss of your beloved ferret "Toby"
9. WarrenMarshall - Paper or Plastic?
10. Morn - Who let the dogs out?

#303 by "Apache"
2001-01-24 17:02:17

7. Apache - If you were to have an indian name, what would it be?

Crazy Coyote?

#304 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-24 17:51:29

True, a lot of movie directors/producers are getting into games (Clive Barker, Speilburg, etc) but I doubt any of them will ever invest 40 million buckaroos into a PC project. :)

They don't invest in movies either, studios do. The directors get hired, and there's nothing stopping a game company from hiring a director to handle their cut scenes. Or maybe even more importantly, an editor. Oh, and a screenwriter. And maybe some voice actors.

#305 by "ChrisJohnson"
2001-01-24 18:19:28

Hulka:

<quote>3. Chris Johnson - You remind me of my siamese brother.</quote>

*snif* That may be the nicest thing anyone's said to me since...since... five minutes ago. *snif*

#306 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-24 18:39:06

SteveBauman (#300):

Exactly. It's not hard to create super high quality videos with 40 million dollars. :P

But try making that kind of thing with a $100,000 ...

SteveBauman (#304):

Yeah, nothing stopping them but money. :P

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)

#307 by "enyak"
2001-01-24 18:56:07

SteveBauman:
<quote>
The directors get hired, and there's nothing stopping a game company from hiring a director to handle their cut scenes. Or maybe even more importantly, an editor. Oh, and a screenwriter. And maybe some voice actors. </quote>

And a real composer! For god's sake a REAL composer!

-enyak

#308 by "charred"
2001-01-24 23:27:01

8. charred - In eight words or less, describe the loss of your beloved ferret "Toby"

I loved my ferret, Toby. Then he died.

#309 by "charred"
2001-01-25 00:11:20

that was tongue-in-cheek, by the way... suppose I should have added the international symbol of ':P'

I loved my ferret, Toby. He's dead now.

Do I get a medal?

#310 by "dsmart"
2001-01-25 00:46:35

PainKilleR (#277):
<quote>most of them looked nice (one in particular did not, I believe it was a picture that was mostly water).</quote>

I think I know which one. Its the Bluish one. It will looked washed out due to JPEG compression.

<quote>heh, I only ask about the FSB because I'm one of the few gamers around that still seems to be running on the 100Mhz FSB, w/ a P3-600 no less ;)</quote>

Not true actually. I have one rig here with a Soyo SY-6BA+IV (Intel 440BX chipset) hosting a PIII-800 cpu. That board is 100Mhz FSB I think. In fact, I have an old Asus P2B-LS (Intel 440BX chipset) mobo also hosting a PIII-600 cpu. That too is 100Mhz FSB. You're not alone. Can you feel the love? :-)

#311 by "dsmart"
2001-01-25 00:53:41

None1a (#281):
<quote>I don't know but there is some thing off about that laser fire and those explosions. </quote>

They look doctored to me, probably post-processed after the scene was setup

#312 by "dsmart"
2001-01-25 00:55:16

ChrisJohnson (#283):
<quote>I'm in agreement with your assessment as well... the explosions look like someone pulled them off of a Pyromania CD and threw them in (I mean, the overall lighting of the level doesn't even affect to the explosions), and the laser shot looks like a bad Photoshop job.

But then again, in the old Quake2Test, the explosions there were just 2d avis ripped form Photoshop (before the polygonal mushroom clouds were put in), so the explosions at least could be place-holder art. The laser blast looks more suspect to me than anything. *shrug*</quote>

absolutely. In fact, thats what I thought. I too use the Pyro CD (and a few new ones) in BCM, so I have an idea of what they look like. :-)

#313 by "dsmart"
2001-01-25 00:58:29

Sgt_Hulka (#302):
<quote>6. Derek Smart - My lower back hurts, are you using your mind powers on me?
</quote>

..no, but I think your cat is probably spiking your drink

#314 by "PainKilleR"
2001-01-25 01:08:32

dsmart (#310):
<quote>Not true actually. I have one rig here with a Soyo SY-6BA+IV (Intel 440BX chipset) hosting a PIII-800 cpu. That board is 100Mhz FSB I think. In fact, I have an old Asus P2B-LS (Intel 440BX chipset) mobo also hosting a PIII-600 cpu. That too is 100Mhz FSB. You're not alone. Can you feel the love? :-)
</quote>

lol, I have an ASUS P2B-LS running with my P2-400 (well, it's actually not running, I stripped the RAM and hard drive out of it for some quick cash a while back), and that's the only motherboard I've ever purchased that would actually cost more now to replace than I originally paid for it (due mostly to the on-board SCSI I think). The 600's running on an ABit BE6. Sometime this year I'm planning on going to either the 133 P3s or a P4 (depending on how the DDR RAM motherboards look when they finally come around).

At least I know I'll still be doing good for a while with the 64MB GF2 card, though, it's just that UT engine bogging me down a bit right now, and considering I play TFC more than anything else, it's not much of an issue ;)

-PainKilleR-[CE]

#315 by "Glock"
2001-01-25 03:15:19

heh, I only ask about the FSB because I'm one of the few gamers around that still seems to be running on the 100Mhz FSB, w/ a P3-600 no less ;)

That's me. I have a 440BX AGPset with a P3-600 with 100mhz FSB.

#316 by "ChrisJohnson"
2001-01-25 07:41:35

<quote>absolutely. In fact, thats what I thought. I too use the Pyro CD (and a few new ones) in BCM, so I have an idea of what they look like. :-)

</quote>

I think about everyone has either used, abused, or at least perused (damn, I'm such a rhyming bitch) Pyromania and their ilk for game content.

Oooh, maybe another blown-ou-of-proportion expose on these CDs can be ours here on Planetcrap soon! Maybe the Register will even pick it up!

<quote>The directors get hired, and there's nothing stopping a game company from hiring a director to handle their cut scenes. Or maybe even more importantly, an editor. Oh, and a screenwriter. And maybe some voice actors.</quote>

Some do all or some of the above. But then, like movies, not all of the above are created equal in any category. And again, the money tends to be a limiting factor... (admittedly, some houses get funded seriousl boatloads of cash and still end up with some shoddy voice acting and such, but I shant mention names, nor th amphibians used in said games).

#317 by "dsmart"
2001-01-26 02:49:16

PainKilleR (#314):
<quote>lol, I have an ASUS P2B-LS running with my P2-400 (well, it's actually not running, I stripped the RAM and hard drive out of it for some quick cash a while back), and that's the only motherboard I've ever purchased that would actually cost more now to replace than I originally paid for it (due mostly to the on-board SCSI I think). The 600's running on an ABit BE6. Sometime this year I'm planning on going to either the 133 P3s or a P4 (depending on how the DDR RAM motherboards look when they finally come around).</quote>

I was one of those suckers who paid close to $400 for that P2B-LS when it came out, because I wanted the onboard LAN and SCSI. Get this. After I upgraded the BIOS, I then found out that you could put a PIII CPU in it. So, I went out and got a PIII-800 just like the chart over at Asus says. Then, when it didn't work, after much fiddling, I realized that since I had one of the earlier boards, my PCB revision was not covered. So, I had to put the PIII-800 in the Soyo and took the PIII-600 out of the Soyo and put it in the P2B-LS. I don't think she noticed she'd been stripped. :-)

#318 by "dsmart"
2001-01-26 02:50:14

ChrisJohnson (#316):
<quote>...(damn, I'm such a rhyming bitch) Pyromania and their ilk for game content. </quote>

LOL, that you are

#319 by "PainKilleR"
2001-01-26 06:28:21

dsmart (#317):
<quote>I was one of those suckers who paid close to $400 for that P2B-LS when it came out, because I wanted the onboard LAN and SCSI. </quote>

heh, I paid $285 for mine, for the same reasons, though. After all, I had 2 8GB DMA/33 hard drives, a DVD-ROM drive, and a CD-ROM drive, and wanted a CD-RW drive (omg, finding SCSI CD-RW drives was VERY hard back then). I also had to deal with the fact that I had a Riva128, 2 12MB Voodoo 2 cards, and a PCI128 sound card, all of which were starting to show heat-related problems because I had 4 PCI slots and 4 PCI cards (the NIC as well, which was why the on-board was a good idea at the time). Who'd've thought that those Voodoo2s should've had some sort of fan setup? ;Þ

The nice part, though, is that those P2B-LS boards are still selling for $330 or so around here, so I could probably make my money back on the board if I was feeling like being a complete ass and selling a board with over a year of hard use for $50 less than a new one (assuming I could find someone that had some use for it).

-PainKilleR-[CE]

#320 by "spackbace"
2001-02-03 18:16:59

ah... the full glory of this is that no one ever reads these anymore... so i get ALL THE LAST POSTS!!

last post btw

#321 by "ChrisJohnson"
2001-02-03 21:09:26

<quote>last post btw</quote>

Or is it?

#322 by "toadwarrior"
2001-02-04 02:53:51

I dunno

#323 by "Weezul"
2001-02-05 14:57:18

Gents,

There is no problem here... tell Georgie B. that no one will be posting screenshot of DNF until he stops sitting on his thumb and MAKES IT.

#324 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-02-05 19:44:57

Weezul (#323):

There is no problem here... tell Georgie B. that no one will be posting screenshot of DNF until he stops sitting on his thumb and MAKES IT.

Wow! What a truly creative and well thought out jab!

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)

#325 by "Milamber"
2001-02-13 17:35:34

Weezul muttered in #323:
<quote>Gents,

There is no problem here... tell Georgie B. that no one will be posting screenshot of DNF until he stops sitting on his thumb and MAKES IT.</quote>

all your bad grammar are belong to us

#326 by "Anonymous"
2001-04-18 17:58:57

you don want to here it

#327 by "PFlats"
2002-04-30 18:25:13

Last post!

#328 by Chris Johnson
2002-04-30 19:58:16

Nope.

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