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But we can't just call it ''15 games we liked'', can we?
December 30th 2000, 00:21 CET by Andy One of the most common topic requests here at ye olde Planet of Crap is about "best of" and "worst of" lists. People often feel that these lists are stupid, wrong, badly reasearched, etc. Usually we don't post topics about these lists because it all comes down to a difference of opinion, but GameSpot's "15 Most Influential Games of All Time" list deserves some scrutiny... The article kicks off with this explanation: "We debated over the history of games to determine the 15 most influential games of all time. Not only did these games introduce innovative features and extraordinary gameplay that later became conventions, but they also serve as models to other developers who seek to emulate and even outdo them. Last, these games were popular commercial successes and as such, they remain hallmarks of this fledgling industry." So how much work has gone into compiling this list? Well, for a start, all of the games are PC titles. Surely there must have been some old arcade, 8-bit, Amiga, ST and console games that were more influential than some of the ones in GameSpot's list? Wouldn't you say that Out Run was more influential than, say, Wing Commander? And won't Renegade and Street Fighter have inspired more games than Ultima III: Exodus? Now let's have a quick scan through some of the more questionable choices on GameSpot's list... Wing Commander: "One of the defining games of the last decade was Wing Commander, which was released in 1990. And it remained highly influential throughout the next ten years." What games did Wing Commander "influence"? The sequels? Alone in the Dark: "Alone in the Dark also pioneered the now ubiquitous use of 3D polygonal character models in games. Although the characters in the original Alone in the Dark were flat-shaded and blocky, 3D graphics since then have become exponentially more lifelike. But it's thanks in part to Alone in the Dark's evocative 3D models and animations that 3D characters now look realistic." How can you seriously count a game as one of "the 15 most influential games of all time" because it used 3D characters? Use of 3D characters was obviously going to happen sooner or later, Alone In The Dark was just one of the first popular games to do it. Tomb Raider: "The settings in games such as MDK, Soul Reaver, Rayman: The Great Escape, and the recently released Heavy Metal F.A.K.K. 2 are all vastly different from those in Tomb Raider, but in each game you can see the recipe that made Tomb Raider a success." So what? An obvious better choice would have been Prince of Persia, seeing as that was pretty much the inspiration behind Tomb Raider. Falcon 3.0: "The father of flight sims." What about the original Falcon? Half-Life: "The new standard in action." True, but hardly influential. Civilization: "The most influential turn-based strategy game." Very popular with hardcore strategy players, but surely Command & Conquer has been more influential? Dune II: The Battle for Arrakis: "The leader of the real-time strategy pack." Again, what about C&C? Myst: "The best-selling game of all time ... undeniably one of the most influential games of all time." Quite how "best-selling" equates to influential, I don't know, but what games has Myst inspired? Seems to me that Myst was just a very popular game in an existing genre -- it didn't create the genre. Doom: "The shooter that changed everything." Yes! Great choice! But then they go and include Quake for much the same reason. Hmph. Really, this list is the result of a few guys sat around a table, picking their favourite games from a bunch of genres. To claim that these titles are "the 15 most influential games of all time" is just plain wrong, and does an injustice to the old classics that really have influenced the games of today. |
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Topic: But we can't just call it ''15 games we liked'', can we?
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The Terminator games were quite cool, first time I was able to drive a jeep in a FPS (Granted I did it many years before in Captain Goodnight, but that was a sidescroller) |
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OOooh! Making progress in AITD! God, even the music brings back memories. Such a great game. If anyone else has started playing the abandonware, can you tell me if you're also having trouble with running? It's supposed to be double-tap up to run, but I guess the computers today are too fast to register the two keypresses as being close together. I wish there was a shift-key modifier. I predict this is going to render the game unplayable once I get out of the mansion... |
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what was the game where you ctontrolled this like, guy with some big gunsand you were killingaliens |
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<b>#90</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>OOooh! Making progress in AITD! God, even the music brings back memories. Such a great game. If anyone else has started playing the abandonware, can you tell me if you're also having trouble with running? It's supposed to be double-tap up to run, but I guess the computers today are too fast to register the two keypresses as being close together. I wish there was a shift-key modifier. I predict this is going to render the game unplayable once I get out of the mansion...</quote> OMG, The graphics.... They are not pretty on a 19" monitor :| No sound, and I also cannot run.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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If Bethesda's SkyNet hadn't already done that a few years earlier... oh, and it was the first game with mouselook. And it had seamless indoor outdoor levels... of course both were sorta unimpressive, but still... Actually, that was one of the things about SkyNET that disappointed me -- it *didn't* have seamless transitions between indoors and outdoors. In the starting area, you were in this fairly large abdandoned city. You could stroll around the streets and destroyed buildings, but as soon as you entered an intact building, there was a pause and then the game transitioned to its "indoor" engine. Once you entered a building, you were completely cut off from the outside. You could never enter a building and look out a window, for example. Very disappointing. The drivable vehicles were cool, though and I've always been disappointed that more FPS games never incorporated them. |
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I have a 19 too :) I was repulsed at first but you get used to it. Thankfully with graphics this big, the triggerpoints on objects are very forgiving. :) I have an SBLive full, with full dos emulation so I get that wicky-wicky-wick nostalgic sound :) |
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I am completly stunned. I am so totally blown away at the poor quality graphics. I had no idea the state of the art had progress so far. The game performance... It's not great. Apparently old games did not scale well? I figure on the consertive side, I've got about 820Mhz, 31Mb more of video memory, and about 248Mb more system memory, and of course, about 80.5Gb more Hd space, and this game is not running as I would have expected. Wow! Here's a tip of the old hat to modern game developers.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#94</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>I have a 19 too :) I was repulsed at first but you get used to it. Thankfully with graphics this big, the triggerpoints on objects are very forgiving. :) I have an SBLive full, with full dos emulation so I get that wicky-wicky-wick nostalgic sound :)</quote> Hmmm, I'm using a SB Value, but on Win2k Server. That could be a problem. Actually, I meant to say, I was somewhat impressed that it ran at all.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#90</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>OOooh! Making progress in AITD! God, even the music brings back memories. Such a great game. If anyone else has started playing the abandonware, can you tell me if you're also having trouble with running? It's supposed to be double-tap up to run, but I guess the computers today are too fast to register the two keypresses as being close together. I wish there was a shift-key modifier. I predict this is going to render the game unplayable once I get out of the mansion...</quote> Try using some thing like MoSlow or Turbo. Personaly I like turbo a bit more (far less complcated to use and it's free), unfotinitly I have no idea where to find it since the version I've been using came off of the PCGamer 12 classics disk. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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wicky-wicky-wick |
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99TH PSOT!!!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAYNE GRETZKY!!!!!!!!!!################### |
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--+++ --jmc |
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<b>AmbushBug</b> (#88): <quote>Bilestoad</quote> WHOOP!<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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That first Terminator game indeed kicked ass. I liked it much better than Doom. And I'm one of the fortunate people to actually own it. And the SkyNet sequel too! :) |
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Personally, I think they wanted to make a popular article with games that most people know. How many people remembers Wolfenstein3D (creator of the FPS) these days ? Every Joe Schmuck knows Doom, but not everyone knows Wolf3D. Speed Fragland.net |
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When I think of Influencing ,I think of a title that's effects are still being felt years later. Ultima Underworld influenced a ton of developers. As did System Shock 1. Warcraft 2 in my opinion was influential when it came to the rts genre .. and so many people loved the title.. that of course a year later there was a glut of rts titles released. Doom was definitely influential. As is Quake look at how many development houses arouse from the quake 1 community. Alone in The Dark was influential for the Resident Evil Series. Tomb Raider was the first 3d person action/adventure title released on pc. And made everyone go.. wow you can do this with a 3rd person perspective.. cool. And despite all the stupid sequels.. No one in their right mind can knock the first game. It was fresh original fun and addictive as hell. And everyone still talks about the damn T-rex to this day. :) As to the rest of the titles, they were smoking some crack when they wrote this article.. so I guess they can be forgiven. :) |
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<b><u>Andy</u></b>, in the delightfully enlightening post <b>#0</b>, babbled the following: <quote><B>Falcon 3.0</B>: "<I>The father of flight sims.</I>" What about the original Falcon?</quote> Or what about MS Flight Sim 1, if we are going to talk about the "Father of all Flight Sims." <b><u>SteveBauman</u></b>, in the delightfully enlightening post <b>#32</b>, babbled the following: <quote>Falcon 3.0 was light years beyond any other simulation in complexity. It had a dynamic campaign, which previous versions lacked. It's definitely right to be on the list. It made all previous sims look like games.</quote> It was also, on first release, a buggy POS - thereby setting another standard in Flight sims - patchware. <b><u>treblekicker</u></b>, in the delightfully enlightening post <b>#62</b>, babbled the following: <quote>say what you will about the xen levels, they were a logical extension of the plot, and pretty bizarre, as an alien world shoulda been.</quote> That may very well be, but they were poorly implemented levels that didn't add anything to the game, as far as I was concerned. I had to cheat past the first of the Xen levels because my system bogged down so much i could not get past it. That is not a failure of the game itself, in understand, but it is a failure in the levels implementation. They could have been done a lot better/different. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Civilization: "The most influential turn-based strategy game." Very popular with hardcore strategy players, but surely Command & Conquer has been more influential? I have to agree with that statement actually -- turn based strategy has been marred by cheezy games (such as MAX and MAX2) and anyone that looks at a PC Gamer no doubt sees the immense amount of TBS games that are focused around war time settings (and since when is war performed on turn based rules anyway?) -- Civilization probably was the best turb based game ever. Command and Conquer was not turn based, and as such it did not influence the TBS genre at all -- the only thing it may have done was spur MAX2 which combined RTS and turn based elements (did I mention this idea was really bad?). |
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<b>VeeSPIKE</b> (#105): <quote> It was also, on first release, a buggy POS - thereby setting another standard in Flight sims - patchware. </quote> Sure you're not thinking of Falcon 4? I've got Falcon 3 and I've never patched it, and never been aware of any *need* to patch it. But v4 on the other hand was notoriously incomplete on release. |
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Sure you're not thinking of Falcon 4? I've got Falcon 3 and I've never patched it, and never been aware of any *need* to patch it. But v4 on the other hand was notoriously incomplete on release. Falcon 3.0 was equally buggy, but perhaps the version you bought had already been patched. Then again, many of the bugs were in the campaigns, and probably wouldn't be noticeable if you played Instant Action. |
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Herzog Zwei once again overlooked as the grandfather of RTS. |
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--- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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neurot (#109): Herzog Zwei once again overlooked as the grandfather of RTS. Did he write pong? --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#111</b> "WarrenMarshall" wrote... <quote><B>neurot</B> (#109): <quote>Herzog Zwei once again overlooked as the grandfather of RTS.</quote> Did he write pong? --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)</quote> Hehehe<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Wasn't Dune 2 before C&C?..... |
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Wing Commander: "One of the defining games of the last decade was Wing Commander, which was released in 1990. And it remained highly influential throughout the next ten years." What games did Wing Commander "influence"? The sequels? Never played any Wing COmmander games. Next! Alone in the Dark: "Alone in the Dark also pioneered the now ubiquitous use of 3D polygonal character models in games. Although the characters in the original Alone in the Dark were flat-shaded and blocky, 3D graphics since then have become exponentially more lifelike. But it's thanks in part to Alone in the Dark's evocative 3D models and animations that 3D characters now look realistic." How can you seriously count a game as one of "the 15 most influential games of all time" because it used 3D characters? Use of 3D characters was obviously going to happen sooner or later, Alone In The Dark was just one of the first popular games to do it. /me agrees with Andy on this one Tomb Raider: "The settings in games such as MDK, Soul Reaver, Rayman: The Great Escape, and the recently released Heavy Metal F.A.K.K. 2 are all vastly different from those in Tomb Raider, but in each game you can see the recipe that made Tomb Raider a success." So what? An obvious better choice would have been Prince of Persia, seeing as that was pretty much the inspiration behind Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider would have to be my favorite example of a milked game. The series should have ened AT LEAST 2 or 3 games ago. Once again I agree with Andy. Falcon 3.0: "The father of flight sims." What about the original Falcon? Never played any flight sim game. Next! Half-Life: "The new standard in action." True, but hardly influential. Half-Life belongs on a list like this next year, when some games it infulenced are actually out. Civilization: "The most influential turn-based strategy game." Very popular with hardcore strategy players, but surely Command & Conquer has been more influential? I do not recall any game like Civ except Call To Power and Alpha Centuri (I *think* AC was like Civ...*). Break through yes, infuential, no. Dune II: The Battle for Arrakis: "The leader of the real-time strategy pack." Again, what about C&C? WarCraft1 belongs here, no contest. Myst: "The best-selling game of all time ... undeniably one of the most influential games of all time." Quite how "best-selling" equates to influential, I don't know, but what games has Myst inspired? Seems to me that Myst was just a very popular game in an existing genre -- it didn't create the genre. See comment for Civilization. Doom: "The shooter that changed everything." Yes! Great choice! But then they go and include Quake for much the same reason. Hmph. Wolfenstein3D should be here, with out that there would be no Doom. There wouldn't be a Quake, or Half-Life for that matter either. ~Done |
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touche. *dies* /lurking forever |
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This article is better: http://www.gamespy.com/devcorner/january01/carlson/ And it doesn't pick winners. Oh I don't fucking know... |
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Herzog Zwei once again overlooked as the grandfather of RTS. Did he write pong? I laughed so hard when I read this I almost ruptured a lung. :) Anyway Herzog didn't influence anything. I don't think that the folks who made Dune 2 got the idea from Herzog. |
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Alone In The Dark What a game. I remember seeing it for the very first time on display outside a computer store in the largest shopping mall in the world. It blew me away, along with about 20 other people (of all ages) who had huddled around the monitor to watch. And it wasn't the opening cinematic, either. Goes to show you, Andy: You've got to be crazy if the visuals in Quake made more of a first impression on you! I mean, by that time, FPS had been done for 4 years, with Quake being the next logical progression. Anyway, back to AITD -- I loved that game. Played all the way through it on a 386 with nothing but a PC speaker, which surprisingly, didn't leave much out (it managed to burp out the beautiful sound of digitized footsteps, along with that creepy-as-fuck 3 second soundbyte that would randomly play and send shivers up your spine). It created a genre. It had revolutionary graphics and sound. It scared me. It should be on that list. Haha, and McCorleone, I sympathize. Last year, after months and months of arguing with a huge Resident Evil fan, and telling him how it didn't even come close to being in the same league as its predecessor, AITD, I found the game in the bargain bin. I never remembered it looking so shitty. He had a good laugh. Oh yeah, and I couldn't get my little 3D guy to run, either. |
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I've given up. I can't invest anymore time in it given the fact that I'll just get stuck soon because of the lack of running. Thanx for the memories, AITD You can't go back :) |
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Herzog Zwei once again overlooked as the grandfather of RTS. Not by me in my own "10 Essential Real-time Strategy Games" article, heh heh. But I'd argue it was actually more of an influence on games like Uprising and BattleZone than Dune II. In fact, if you want to go back further, Dune II was influenced by Westwood's own Battletech game, Crescent Hawk's Inception (or Revenge, can't remember which one). |
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I do not recall any game like Civ except Call To Power and Alpha Centuri (I *think* AC was like Civ...*). Break through yes, infuential, no. Aw geez, almost every strategy game released since owes a HUGE debt to Civilization (though you can argue it owes a debt to Railroad Tycoon), if anything for simplifying their designs and focusing on "fun" over things like absolute realism. Aside from its sequels and Colonization, you had every 4X space game like Master of Orion (though you can trace their lineage back to Reach for the Stars), Warlords (and it's four sequels), Transport and RollerCoaster Tycoon, Rise and Rule of Ancient Empires, Call to Power, Imperialism, Age of Empires... hell, most real-time strategy games follow the same basic structure of Civilization: build a base (city), develop your infrastructure and economy, build up a military, explore the map, then attack. And let's also not forget that Civilization II is one of the best-selling games of all time. It's not exactly a simple game, but somehow Sid Meier distilled history and complex gameplay down into something incredibly playable and open-ended. I'd argue the two big strategy games of all-time are Civilization and SimCity, with games like Populous and Dune II falling slighty behind. WarCraft1 belongs here, no contest. No way. Even if it was a better game, the mechanics of WarCraft were completely derivative of Dune II. Re: Myst See comment for Civilization. Myst inspired literally hundreds of clones, and they still come out from people like Dreamcatcher interactive. Most were failures. Wolfenstein3D should be here, with out that there would be no Doom. There wouldn't be a Quake, or Half-Life for that matter either. Wolfenstein was a baby-step, a cartoon. It wasn't even as advanced as Ultima Underworld (neither was DOOM for that matter). DOOM was where it all started for 3D action, plus it had network play and then the MOD scene took off. Those last two things are perhaps its most enduring contributions. You could make a serious argument that Ultima Underworld should be on that list. |
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<b>#121</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote>DOOM was where it all started for 3D action, plus it had network play and then the MOD scene took off.</quote> That might be where the mainstream started, but I was a big fan of the wolfenstein's, and the blake stone's. They were like no other game when I first played. Obviously nothing to write home about now, but at the time...<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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That might be where the mainstream started, but I was a big fan of the wolfenstein's, and the blake stone's. They were like no other game when I first played. Obviously nothing to write home about now, but at the time... The mainstream was aware of Wolfenstien 3D, and I was a fan of that game too, but I'd still argue that DOOM was a greater leap for 3D gaming. I think the cartoon-style and general box design of Wolfenstein made it a bit slight, and barely an evolution above a Dungeon Master or other maze-y step-based 3D games. DOOM was miles and miles of style, it was intense and scary, and hit had an unprecendented level of creepiness... it was revolutionary. |
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<b>#123</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote><quote>That might be where the mainstream started, but I was a big fan of the wolfenstein's, and the blake stone's. They were like no other game when I first played. Obviously nothing to write home about now, but at the time... </quote> The mainstream was aware of Wolfenstien 3D, and I was a fan of that game too, but I'd still argue that DOOM was a greater leap for 3D gaming. I think the cartoon-style and general box design of Wolfenstein made it a bit slight, and barely an evolution above a Dungeon Master or other maze-y step-based 3D games. DOOM was miles and miles of style, it was intense and scary, and hit had an unprecendented level of creepiness... it was revolutionary.</quote> I'll have to take your word for it since I was never much of a dungeon crawler. Having said that, 99% of the mechanics, and concept of modern SP FPS games was already in place back then. All we've seen since then are increnental improvements, Based on my recent peek at AITD, I can only imagine that I have the wolf's and the blakes all built up in my mind into something they are not. But at the time, they were 'all that' to me.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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AnalFissure (#118): Goes to show you, Andy: You've got to be crazy if the visuals in Quake made more of a first impression on you! The difference being that Quake ran fast ... and the player had a HELL of a lot more control over themselves. Nothing has impressed me more than Quake in the history of gaming. I liked walking around in QTest and just -being- in the world. SteveBauman (#121): Wolfenstein was a baby-step, a cartoon. It wasn't even as advanced as Ultima Underworld (neither was DOOM for that matter). DOOM was where it all started for 3D action, plus it had network play and then the MOD scene took off. Those last two things are perhaps its most enduring contributions. What Wolfenstein and Doom had going for them was their sense of speed. You were RUNNING through this real time world instead of just crawling along like in Ultima Underworld ... maybe my computer was just underpowered or something, but I never got the sense of immersion from UU that I did from Doom ... --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Having said that, 99% of the mechanics, and concept of modern SP FPS games was already in place back then. Well, they weren't even really 3D, so it's hard to compare. DOOM was the first game that really felt 3D to me. Based on my recent peek at AITD, I can only imagine that I have the wolf's and the blakes all built up in my mind into something they are not. But at the time, they were 'all that' to me. Sure, they're considerably better in our memory, but you have to put them in context against the other games of that period, not the ones you've played since. Alone in the Dark WAS incredibly impressive in its day relative to others, as were Wolfenstein and DOOM. |
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<b>#126</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote><quote>Having said that, 99% of the mechanics, and concept of modern SP FPS games was already in place back then. </quote> Well, they weren't even really 3D, so it's hard to compare. DOOM was the first game that really felt 3D to me. </quote> They were not true3D, but unless it was something you were worried about, I don't think (most)people were playing doom and thinking Hmmph, nice game, but it's not 3D. It goes to you previous statement, at the time, they were everything we wanted. <quote> <quote>Based on my recent peek at AITD, I can only imagine that I have the wolf's and the blakes all built up in my mind into something they are not. But at the time, they were 'all that' to me. </quote> Sure, they're considerably better in our memory, but you have to put them in context against the other games of that period, not the ones you've played since. Alone in the Dark WAS incredibly impressive in its day relative to others, as were Wolfenstein and DOOM.</quote> Agreed, I hope I did not indicate otherwise either, I'm quite fond of my gaming history, and the games I played.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Based on my recent peek at AITD, I can only imagine that I have the wolf's and the blakes all built up in my mind into something they are not. But at the time, they were 'all that' to me. And THIS is exactly what id is up against with this new Doom. People have built up the memory of Doom in their minds to this incredible level that the new Doom can't possibly meet. No game could. It'll be interesting to watch what happens ... --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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What Wolfenstein and Doom had going for them was their sense of speed. You were RUNNING through this real time world instead of just crawling along like in Ultima Underworld ... maybe my computer was just underpowered or something, but I never got the sense of immersion from UU that I did from Doom ... Likely due to the genius of Carmack, they were incredibly fast games (even on slower computers). And DOOM was probably the most immersive game of the time (I couldn't get as immersed in Wolfenstein... it was really fun, but slight), but Ultima Underworld was the first 3D game to give you the feeling you were in a real, dynamic world. DOOM had the traditional levels of an arcade game. Underworld had a seamless feeling, a world full of interactive object (more than even Duke Nukem 3D had). It was definitely slower-paced, had a smaller window (which causes it to lose some immersive quality), but its 3D engine was way more advanced than DOOM's; hell, you could look up and down, there were levels on top of other levels... lots of nifty stuff. |
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Made a potentially confusing error in 127. I meant to indicate that 'It goes to your <i>next</i> statement, not your previous.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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SteveBauman (#129): Likely due to the genius of Carmack, they were incredibly fast games (even on slower computers). And DOOM was probably the most immersive game of the time (I couldn't get as immersed in Wolfenstein... it was really fun, but slight), but Ultima Underworld was the first 3D game to give you the feeling you were in a real, dynamic world. DOOM had the traditional levels of an arcade game. Underworld had a seamless feeling, a world full of interactive object (more than even Duke Nukem 3D had). It was definitely slower-paced, had a smaller window (which causes it to lose some immersive quality), but its 3D engine was way more advanced than DOOM's; hell, you could look up and down, there were levels on top of other levels... lots of nifty stuff. Yeah ... I agree. It's hard to compare the engines though. Each was built with totally different design goals in mind. Each one seemed to accomplish those goals though ... --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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They were not true3D, but unless it was something you were worried about, I don't think (most)people were playing doom and thinking Hmmph, nice game, but it's not 3D. It goes to you previous statement, at the time, they were everything we wanted. Exactly. No one made a big deal about it until games DID go 3D. Remember the Quake versus Duke Nukem wars... ugh, how lame. They were both impressive but for entirely different reasons. Remember when it was a big deal if a game had rooms over othe rooms... as if that really mattered. It's the same battles people wage today (LithTech versus Unreal versus Quake), and I still have the same thing to say to those people; judge the games, not the features of 3D engines. |
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<b>#128</b> "WarrenMarshall" wrote... <quote><quote>Based on my recent peek at AITD, I can only imagine that I have the wolf's and the blakes all built up in my mind into something they are not. But at the time, they were 'all that' to me.</quote> And THIS is exactly what id is up against with this new Doom. People have built up the memory of Doom in their minds to this incredible level that the new Doom can't possibly meet. No game could. It'll be interesting to watch what happens ... --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)</quote> Good point, I'm not so sure they made the best choice with the name, it's automatically going up against not the real doom, but the imaginary one. That's going to be a really tough hurdle to get over. I'll take a wait and see approach, I have no particular compaints with id's single player games, I had fun with all of them. The problem now, is that I'm probably spoiled by this years games which finally seem to have made some inroads with interactivitiy, and story integration. I'm sure the game will be fun, if I can sit here and pontificate on the matter, I'm sure I'm not saying anything they can't figure out themselves, I'm just a player.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#132</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote><quote>They were not true3D, but unless it was something you were worried about, I don't think (most)people were playing doom and thinking Hmmph, nice game, but it's not 3D. It goes to you previous statement, at the time, they were everything we wanted.</quote> Exactly. No one made a big deal about it until games DID go 3D. Remember the Quake versus Duke Nukem wars... ugh, how lame. They were both impressive but for entirely different reasons. Remember when it was a big deal if a game had rooms over othe rooms... as if that really mattered. It's the same battles people wage today (LithTech versus Unreal versus Quake), and I still have the same thing to say to those people; judge the games, not the features of 3D engines.</quote> Yes, I'm engine neutral, I can think of one each, quake, unreal, and lithtech game that I loved this year.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Yes, I'm engine neutral, I can think of one each, quake, unreal, and lithtech game that I loved this year. The great thing about this is that you look at the gameplay with a slightly fresher perspective than those who focus on the minutia of engine development. Sometimes they can't even get to the gameplay because the tech doesn't meet their standards; for example, most No One Lives Forever reviews spent an inordinate amount of time reviewing LithTech and talking about its history, which is mostly irrelevant. |
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That's going to be a really tough hurdle to get over. I'll take a wait and see approach, I have no particular compaints with id's single player games, I had fun with all of them. The problem now, is that I'm probably spoiled by this years games which finally seem to have made some inroads with interactivitiy, and story integration. All sequels that don't follow 1-2 years after the first game have this problem to some extent. Would you want to be responsible for Half-Life 2? System Shock 2 seemed to succeed with battling the memory of System Shock. How about Duke Nukem Forever? Riven? You saw that DOOM phenomenon with the reactions to Star Wars Episode I. Most people expected to be blown away like they were with Star Wars, forgetting they saw that movie when they were 10 or something (and watching it now, you realize how painfully bad it is at times... my lord, was Mark Hamil the worst actor in existence... the dialogue on Tatooine... ugh). 10 year olds seeing Episode I probably felt it was as cool as they found the original Star Wars. |
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SteveBauman (#132): Exactly. No one made a big deal about it until games DID go 3D. Remember the Quake versus Duke Nukem wars... ugh, how lame. They were both impressive but for entirely different reasons. Or the Quake3 vs UT wars ... or the 3DFX vs nVidia wars ... ugh. I don't know why people always feel the need to not only pick a side, but then proceed to spit on the other side. SteveBauman (#135): The great thing about this is that you look at the gameplay with a slightly fresher perspective than those who focus on the minutia of engine development. Sometimes they can't even get to the gameplay because the tech doesn't meet their standards; for example, most No One Lives Forever reviews spent an inordinate amount of time reviewing LithTech and talking about its history, which is mostly irrelevant. Yeah, the focus on engines is a little stupid. I want to know if NOLF is fun as a game, not how the Lithtech engine stacks up against the others... SteveBauman (#136): You saw that DOOM phenomenon with the reactions to Star Wars Episode I. Most people expected to be blown away like they were with Star Wars, forgetting they saw that movie when they were 10 or something (and watching it now, you realize how painfully bad it is at times... my lord, was Mark Hamil the worst actor in existence... the dialogue on Tatooine... ugh). 10 year olds seeing Episode I probably felt it was as cool as they found the original Star Wars. Precisely. And people forget that a large part of why Doom was so damn amazing was because of when it came out. Compared to other titles of the day, it was incredible. But now that moving through specular, bump mapped, environment mapped, decal wearing 3D worlds with dynamic lighting is common place ... the new Doom will have to excel in the game as opposed to the tech. Which is going to be interesting, since the gameplay of Doom is what people have built up to galactic proportions ... nobody talks about the Doom engine. They talk about the game. --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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AnalFissure (#118): I remember seeing it for the very first time on display outside a computer store in the largest shopping mall in the world. Would that be WEST EDMONTON MALL??????????!#######???????######?!!!)))))#()()()(!!!!!#_)_)_!____________ _!)#???? AHHAEHEAHEAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(((((((((((#######) |
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Topic: But we can't just call it ''15 games we liked'', can we?
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