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But we can't just call it ''15 games we liked'', can we?
December 30th 2000, 00:21 CET by Andy One of the most common topic requests here at ye olde Planet of Crap is about "best of" and "worst of" lists. People often feel that these lists are stupid, wrong, badly reasearched, etc. Usually we don't post topics about these lists because it all comes down to a difference of opinion, but GameSpot's "15 Most Influential Games of All Time" list deserves some scrutiny... The article kicks off with this explanation: "We debated over the history of games to determine the 15 most influential games of all time. Not only did these games introduce innovative features and extraordinary gameplay that later became conventions, but they also serve as models to other developers who seek to emulate and even outdo them. Last, these games were popular commercial successes and as such, they remain hallmarks of this fledgling industry." So how much work has gone into compiling this list? Well, for a start, all of the games are PC titles. Surely there must have been some old arcade, 8-bit, Amiga, ST and console games that were more influential than some of the ones in GameSpot's list? Wouldn't you say that Out Run was more influential than, say, Wing Commander? And won't Renegade and Street Fighter have inspired more games than Ultima III: Exodus? Now let's have a quick scan through some of the more questionable choices on GameSpot's list... Wing Commander: "One of the defining games of the last decade was Wing Commander, which was released in 1990. And it remained highly influential throughout the next ten years." What games did Wing Commander "influence"? The sequels? Alone in the Dark: "Alone in the Dark also pioneered the now ubiquitous use of 3D polygonal character models in games. Although the characters in the original Alone in the Dark were flat-shaded and blocky, 3D graphics since then have become exponentially more lifelike. But it's thanks in part to Alone in the Dark's evocative 3D models and animations that 3D characters now look realistic." How can you seriously count a game as one of "the 15 most influential games of all time" because it used 3D characters? Use of 3D characters was obviously going to happen sooner or later, Alone In The Dark was just one of the first popular games to do it. Tomb Raider: "The settings in games such as MDK, Soul Reaver, Rayman: The Great Escape, and the recently released Heavy Metal F.A.K.K. 2 are all vastly different from those in Tomb Raider, but in each game you can see the recipe that made Tomb Raider a success." So what? An obvious better choice would have been Prince of Persia, seeing as that was pretty much the inspiration behind Tomb Raider. Falcon 3.0: "The father of flight sims." What about the original Falcon? Half-Life: "The new standard in action." True, but hardly influential. Civilization: "The most influential turn-based strategy game." Very popular with hardcore strategy players, but surely Command & Conquer has been more influential? Dune II: The Battle for Arrakis: "The leader of the real-time strategy pack." Again, what about C&C? Myst: "The best-selling game of all time ... undeniably one of the most influential games of all time." Quite how "best-selling" equates to influential, I don't know, but what games has Myst inspired? Seems to me that Myst was just a very popular game in an existing genre -- it didn't create the genre. Doom: "The shooter that changed everything." Yes! Great choice! But then they go and include Quake for much the same reason. Hmph. Really, this list is the result of a few guys sat around a table, picking their favourite games from a bunch of genres. To claim that these titles are "the 15 most influential games of all time" is just plain wrong, and does an injustice to the old classics that really have influenced the games of today. |
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Topic: But we can't just call it ''15 games we liked'', can we?
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<b>#49</b> "Andy" wrote... <quote><B>Andy</B> (#48): <quote> Ooh, I'll tell you what might be causing the disagreement here: The 3D cinematic sequences in AITD, before you got into the game proper, were very WOW. So what I'm guessing is that for Steve and Barney, they were impressed by those, and then got right into the game so they were impressed by the characters too. But it took me a while to get into the game, so I had a lot more time to get used to the first few models. So by the time I started progressing, it was a case of yeah, so what else is new? </quote> And now I'll actually get to the point, which was that for Steve and Barney the opening cinematics probably boosted the WOW factor of the rest of the game, ie: They lifted you up, and you were on a high when you played the game. If the cinematics hadn't been quite so impressive, I wonder if your memory of the in-game models would be different?</quote> Good question, there's really no going back, but it's a resaonable question, at least it is for me.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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i think the game i was most impressed with when i first saw it was super mario 64. not everyone's cuppa tea, but i literally played thru that game 10 times. it was sick actually :] on the pc side, i remember actually upgrading to 4 megs of ram on my 386 for like 200 bucks [!] just to see the little hand moving the joystick in real time on the screen. ran like a pig on my puter, but with the whole cinematic feel really got me into the game another that i played thru multiple times i feel that [and this might be controversial] that the thief series should be included we're just starting to see its influence now [see the comments about sneaking in nolf, among others in a prior thread] regards/john |
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Andy (#25): Right, but I don't see how that makes it influential. That just means it was good. There had been AI in games before, Unreal just did it better. Yeah, and there was action in games before, but Half-Life just made it better. And there were graphics in games before, but Quake3 just made it better. *shrug* BloodKnight (#29): I meant Why is Half life on the list? The only thing I see in HL was shit graphics (at the time and present), really poor voicing, annoying loading times, bad weapons, not so great AI, and some storyline. I am even suprised that this game is popular I'm not going to argue this. People who don't like Half-Life scare me at a very core level. SteveBauman (#32): Half-Life shouldn't be on the list, since it was the logical evolution of DOOM and System Shock. It's the game people should have started making after DOOM came out. Sure, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been influential ... SteveBauman (#33): It raised the bar that was set by the DOOMs, Duke Nukems, Quakes and System Shocks. It was simply a matter of taking things others had done and doing it considerably better. For example, all games have AI; Half-Life's was better and took it up a notch. But Half-Life wasn't about one or two things being moved up a notch. It was about creating a cohesive world. Putting the player in that world and letting him experience it with as little interruption or jarring as possible. Half-Life did this, and no game before it really had ... this is where I think it's greatest influence lies. And if you want to get picky, all games derive from pong. You have a goal, and are given tools to accomplish that goal. --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>treblekicker</b> (#52): <quote> i feel that [and this might be controversial] that the thief series should be included we're just starting to see its influence now [see the comments about sneaking in nolf, among others in a prior thread] </quote> Damn! Yes, you're so right. And as you say, we're only just starting to see its influence, but it will certainly make a difference to the games of tomorrow. Thief was, I'd suggest, the first game to offer something really different since Wolf/Doom. Any better suggestions? |
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If the cinematics hadn't been quite so impressive, I wonder if your memory of the in-game models would be different? To be honest, I don't remember the opening cinematic at all. I do remember loading up the demo, which just dumped you in a room with no menus even, if I recall correctly. Just your guy standing there sorta moving slightly in 3D. I was like, "Woah." I played that demo for weeks. The opening cinematic that blew me away (an in-engine polygonal one that preceded Interstate 76) was Out of this World (Another World in the UK, I believe). Now that was a "wow" opening.... |
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<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#53): <quote>I'm not going to argue this. People who don't like Half-Life scare me at a very core level. </quote> SCORE!<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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But Half-Life wasn't about one or two things being moved up a notch. It was about creating a cohesive world. Putting the player in that world and letting him experience it with as little interruption or jarring as possible. Half-Life did this, and no game before it really had ... this is where I think it's greatest influence lies. I'd agree with you if System Shock didn't create the same sort of cohesive world (as did, arguably, the Underworld games), and if role-playing games in general hadn't been doing that for years previously. I do agree 100% that it's one of Half-Life's greatest strengths, its cohesion, and it's something too few games focus on, particularly 3D shooters. They seem compelled to offer variety for variety's sake, when sometimes cohesion, even if somewhat repetitive, is more effective... |
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BloodKnight (#56): SCORE! Nope. Still not going to get into it. But keep trying ... --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#53): <quote> Yeah, and there was action in games before, but Half-Life just made it better. And there were graphics in games before, but Quake3 just made it better. *shrug* </quote> I agree, which is why I'd say that neither Half-Life nor Q3A should be described as influential. And neither should Unreal. I'm not saying it won't have influenced people, just that dozens of other games will have influenced millions more people. Let me just ask you outright: Do you think Unreal is one of the 15 most influential games of all time? (That's 20+ years of games on consoles, 8-bits, PC, Amiga, ST, hand-helds, arcades, etc.) |
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Damn! Yes, you're so right. And as you say, we're only just starting to see its influence, but it will certainly make a difference to the games of tomorrow. Thief was, I'd suggest, the first game to offer something really different since Wolf/Doom. Any better suggestions? That is a superb point... Thief was definitely one of the few first-person games to offer something different, though System Shock was the first to really mix the 3D action with more adventure and role-playing elements. Or sheesh, let's not forget Ultima Underworld, which was as interactive as Duke Nukem... (and just about as 3D). By the way, the dismissal of certain innovation as being inevitable is something I've used to argue against so-called "innovations" of interactivity in games like Duke Nukem 3D and Shenmue, so I guess I'm a hypocrite... |
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<b>SteveBauman</b> (#55): <quote> To be honest, I don't remember the opening cinematic at all. </quote> If I remember correctly, the camera is somewhere near the house, and we see the guy's (or woman's) car way off in the distance, trundling along the road, getting bigger as it gets closer. Doesn't sound very impressive, but it was. <quote> The opening cinematic that blew me away (an in-engine polygonal one that preceded Interstate 76) was Out of this World (Another World in the UK, I believe). Now that was a "wow" opening.... </quote> And weirdly enough, I don't remember that one! |
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i agree with steve's comments about system shock vs. half-life that coheisive whole, that seemed [or still seems] so elusive in games today really got its start in system shock for me... tho i havent played the ultima underworld games. if you think about it, the lineage between the thief games and system shock [and possibly those underworld titles] what i don't get is how it seems to be in vogue now to bash half life... it was miles above any single player game released at the time. and still holds up pretty well. say what you will about the xen levels, they were a logical extension of the plot, and pretty bizarre, as an alien world shoulda been. good point on pong warren, even tho you flamed me before just cause i said i thought mr pianist was funny. a truly revolutionary game would provide a new gameplay model. regards/john |
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soory, shoulda been a smiley in there after the warren comment :] |
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<b>#62</b> "treblekicker" wrote... <quote>i agree with steve's comments about system shock vs. half-life that coheisive whole, that seemed [or still seems] so elusive in games today really got its start in system shock for me... tho i havent played the ultima underworld games. if you think about it, the lineage between the thief games and system shock [and possibly those underworld titles] what i don't get is how it seems to be in vogue now to bash half life... it was miles above any single player game released at the time. and still holds up pretty well. say what you will about the xen levels, they were a logical extension of the plot, and pretty bizarre, as an alien world shoulda been. good point on pong warren, even tho you flamed me before just cause i said i thought mr pianist was funny. a truly revolutionary game would provide a new gameplay model. regards/john</quote> I agree that half life is a remarkable game, but I would like to re-emphasize that point about the xen levels. They were a really bad idea, and I'd be willing to bet that Valve knows it too, and we will not be seeing much, if any of that sort of thing should a HL2 ever get released. We could really use a valve employee or two at PC, too bad they don't participate, I'd like to hear from them as we do other developers.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#58): <quote>Nope. Still not going to get into it. But keep trying ... </quote> Thats what I meant, you ain't going into it :) <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Andy (#59): Let me just ask you outright: Do you think Unreal is one of the 15 most influential games of all time? (That's 20+ years of games on consoles, 8-bits, PC, Amiga, ST, hand-helds, arcades, etc.) No, probably not. It was a major step forward in many tech areas, but I don't think it was influential as a game. It did many, many things better than anyone else ... but I don't think it really pushed the genre forward that much. You could maybe say it's outdoor areas were influential in the following push for games to have larger/outdoor areas ... but I'm sure someone will shoot me down if I say that, so ... ;) --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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If I remember correctly, the camera is somewhere near the house, and we see the guy's (or woman's) car way off in the distance, trundling along the road, getting bigger as it gets closer. Doesn't sound very impressive, but it was. Phew, still not connecting... weird. And weirdly enough, I don't remember that one! Heh heh, it also involved a car. A guy driving to the lab on a stormy night, lightning in the distance, close up of polygonal hand as he entered in codes, experiment goes awry (as they always do) when lightning strikes the lab... it was pretty nifty for the time. Like most French games (Alone in the Dark as well), it was stylish... and unlike most French games (and like Alone in the Dark), it actually had good gameplay. |
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You could maybe say it's outdoor areas were influential in the following push for games to have larger/outdoor areas ... but I'm sure someone will shoot me down if I say that, so ... ;) If Bethesda's SkyNet hadn't already done that a few years earlier... oh, and it was the first game with mouselook. And it had seamless indoor outdoor levels... of course both were sorta unimpressive, but still... |
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<b>#68</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote><quote>You could maybe say it's outdoor areas were influential in the following push for games to have larger/outdoor areas ... but I'm sure someone will shoot me down if I say that, so ... ;)</quote> If Bethesda's SkyNet hadn't already done that a few years earlier... oh, and it was the first game with mouselook. And it had seamless indoor outdoor levels... of course both were sorta unimpressive, but still...</quote> What ever happened to Bethesda? Did id and 3dr kill them? I notice the publisher of that game seems to be doing security type stuff now.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#66): <quote> No, probably not. It was a major step forward in many tech areas, but I don't think it was influential as a game. It did many, many things better than anyone else ... but I don't think it really pushed the genre forward that much. </quote> LOL, now I have to disagree with you from the other side. I think it did push the genre forward a lot, but again, that doesn't mean it was influential. If anything, that shows it was influenc<b>ed</b>. But anyway, I think we're on the same wavelength. Scary thought. |
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What ever happened to Bethesda? Did id and 3dr kill them? Nope, they're still kicking. They do bowling games to pay the bills and published the last game by Mythos Games (the most underappreciated developer in existence... they did X-COM, for cripes sake!) Magic and Mayhem. They're also doing Mythos' next game called Dreamland Chronicles, which is a lot like the original X-COM. And a new Elder Scrolls game is due this year. |
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<b>#71</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote><quote>What ever happened to Bethesda? Did id and 3dr kill them?</quote> Nope, they're still kicking. They do bowling games to pay the bills and published the last game by Mythos Games (the most underappreciated developer in existence... they did X-COM, for cripes sake!) Magic and Mayhem. They're also doing Mythos' next game called Dreamland Chronicles, which is a lot like the original X-COM. And a new Elder Scrolls game is due this year.</quote> Encyclopedia of knowledge, Thank you for that update, I had no idea.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Encyclopedia of knowledge, Thank you for that update, I had no idea. It's why I make the big bucks. |
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No need for Doom, Quake and Half-Life. They are all derivitive of the original Doom. They wasted 3 slots on FPS games. Oh, and Tomb Raider is a joke too. It changed nothing and that kind of gameplay had been on consoles for years. If Tomb Raider was tobe on there for "character", then Duke 3D beat them to market by over a year, and countless adventure games before that. Dumbasses. |
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SteveBauman (#68): If Bethesda's SkyNet hadn't already done that a few years earlier... oh, and it was the first game with mouselook. And it had seamless indoor outdoor levels... of course both were sorta unimpressive, but still... If only pong hadn't done that whole "achieve a goal" thing ... all these games today, no originality! Andy (#70): But anyway, I think we're on the same wavelength. Scary thought. No shit. I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now. ;) GeorgeBroussard (#74): No need for Doom, Quake and Half-Life. They are all derivitive of the original Doom. They wasted 3 slots on FPS games. Doom was derivative of Doom? That's quite an achievement. :P --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#75</b> "WarrenMarshall" wrote... <quote><B>SteveBauman</B> (#68): <quote>If Bethesda's SkyNet hadn't already done that a few years earlier... oh, and it was the first game with mouselook. And it had seamless indoor outdoor levels... of course both were sorta unimpressive, but still...</quote> If only pong hadn't done that whole "achieve a goal" thing ... all these games today, no originality! <B>Andy</B> (#70): <quote>But anyway, I think we're on the same wavelength. Scary thought.</quote> No shit. I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now. ;) <B>GeorgeBroussard</B> (#74): <quote>No need for Doom, Quake and Half-Life. They are all derivitive of the original Doom. They wasted 3 slots on FPS games.</quote> Doom was derivative of Doom? That's quite an achievement. :P --- Warren Marshall Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)</quote> Yeah, pong might have had hot graphics, and a great objective, leading sound, but the story sucked, that had to wait for HL to be released. It will be good to see what the pong forever guys do with some of the newer ideas. :) <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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Aaah, AITD... One of my first favourite games on the PC. Incidentally, if any of you are looking to re-play AITD, Google turned up http://www.cdos.org/indark.shtml for the abandonware. As far as RPG's go, which weren't touched, WASTELAND is definitely on there for obvious reasons, having spawned two subsequent best-sellers many years after the fact, as well as creating the whole Fallout franchise. As far as their list goes, I agree with both Dune2 and AITD. I remember 4d boxing, too. I hate sports games but I played that one a lot. I think that was the second in the 4d series, the first having been "4d-driving", which was a phenomenally fun 3d driving game where you could build your own tracks. |
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<b>#77</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>Aaah, AITD... One of my first favourite games on the PC. Incidentally, if any of you are looking to re-play AITD, Google turned up http://www.cdos.org/indark.shtml for the abandonware. </quote> Oh you Evil bastard. :) This presents something of an awful delema(sp) for me. Can I get a quick show of hands on this issue? <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>Barneyque</b> (#78): <quote> Can I get a quick show of hands on this issue? </quote> What, whether or not to grab it from the abandonware site? Hmm. :-) Well tell you what, I've got an original, so just pretend I'm lending it to you. |
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<b>#79</b> "Andy" wrote... <quote><B>Barneyque</B> (#78): <quote> Can I get a quick show of hands on this issue? </quote> What, whether or not to grab it from the abandonware site? Hmm. :-) Well tell you what, I've got an original, so just pretend I'm lending it to you.</quote> Wow, still have the origional do ya? I lost a bunch of my old games in a basement flood. Still have most, but I do believe I lost that one. Actually, if I own(ed) the game, technically, I still have a license to use it I'm guessing. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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I own it too. I bought it at a consignment software place a year ago and to my dismay, one of the floppies was faulty. Thanks to abandonware, I wasn't entirely pooched. :) |
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I think that was the second in the 4d series, the first having been "4d-driving", which was a phenomenally fun 3d driving game where you could build your own tracks. Are you thinking of Stunts, which had a track editor? (It may have been called 4D Racing or something like that in countries other than the US.) That game ruled, and it was by the same folks who did 4D Boxing (Distinctive Software). Good lord, why am I remembering this. Please, kill me... |
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<b>#82</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote><quote>I think that was the second in the 4d series, the first having been "4d-driving", which was a phenomenally fun 3d driving game where you could build your own tracks. </quote> Are you thinking of Stunts, which had a track editor? (It may have been called 4D Racing or something like that in countries other than the US.) That game ruled, and it was by the same folks who did 4D Boxing (Distinctive Software). Good lord, why am I remembering this. Please, kill me...</quote> Cause yer the man with the big bux I hear. :)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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WHERE'S M ARIO BROTHERS?#!! SHAHAHAH !!!! STUPID GAMESPOTS |
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I just knew no good could come of this. (Abandonware) Now I find myself getting all antsy reading a review of Crusader: No Regret, and I loved the first Crusader game. :| Ho hum, what to do.... <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#71</b> "SteveBauman" wrote... <quote>Nope, they're still kicking. They do bowling games to pay the bills and published the last game by Mythos Games (the most underappreciated developer in existence... they did X-COM, for cripes sake!) Magic and Mayhem. They're also doing Mythos' next game called Dreamland Chronicles, which is a lot like the original X-COM. And a new Elder Scrolls game is due this year.</quote> Didn't they just released another Drag racing sim as well? I wonder how that one turned out. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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The first Terminator PC game (was based on the first movie and came out in the early early 90's, and was not the doom ripoffs bearing the Terminator name) was very cool, huge open world and lots of things to do. I went to GameFAQs (the source for obscure gaming lore) and couldn't pull up a thing on it... sigh. --jmc ~Pining for the days of Corncob3d~ |
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Bilestoad, Armourgeddon, Pool of Radiance.. ahh, the good old days :) |
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The Terminator games were quite cool, first time I was able to drive a jeep in a FPS (Granted I did it many years before in Captain Goodnight, but that was a sidescroller) |
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OOooh! Making progress in AITD! God, even the music brings back memories. Such a great game. If anyone else has started playing the abandonware, can you tell me if you're also having trouble with running? It's supposed to be double-tap up to run, but I guess the computers today are too fast to register the two keypresses as being close together. I wish there was a shift-key modifier. I predict this is going to render the game unplayable once I get out of the mansion... |
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what was the game where you ctontrolled this like, guy with some big gunsand you were killingaliens |
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<b>#90</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>OOooh! Making progress in AITD! God, even the music brings back memories. Such a great game. If anyone else has started playing the abandonware, can you tell me if you're also having trouble with running? It's supposed to be double-tap up to run, but I guess the computers today are too fast to register the two keypresses as being close together. I wish there was a shift-key modifier. I predict this is going to render the game unplayable once I get out of the mansion...</quote> OMG, The graphics.... They are not pretty on a 19" monitor :| No sound, and I also cannot run.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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If Bethesda's SkyNet hadn't already done that a few years earlier... oh, and it was the first game with mouselook. And it had seamless indoor outdoor levels... of course both were sorta unimpressive, but still... Actually, that was one of the things about SkyNET that disappointed me -- it *didn't* have seamless transitions between indoors and outdoors. In the starting area, you were in this fairly large abdandoned city. You could stroll around the streets and destroyed buildings, but as soon as you entered an intact building, there was a pause and then the game transitioned to its "indoor" engine. Once you entered a building, you were completely cut off from the outside. You could never enter a building and look out a window, for example. Very disappointing. The drivable vehicles were cool, though and I've always been disappointed that more FPS games never incorporated them. |
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I have a 19 too :) I was repulsed at first but you get used to it. Thankfully with graphics this big, the triggerpoints on objects are very forgiving. :) I have an SBLive full, with full dos emulation so I get that wicky-wicky-wick nostalgic sound :) |
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I am completly stunned. I am so totally blown away at the poor quality graphics. I had no idea the state of the art had progress so far. The game performance... It's not great. Apparently old games did not scale well? I figure on the consertive side, I've got about 820Mhz, 31Mb more of video memory, and about 248Mb more system memory, and of course, about 80.5Gb more Hd space, and this game is not running as I would have expected. Wow! Here's a tip of the old hat to modern game developers.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#94</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>I have a 19 too :) I was repulsed at first but you get used to it. Thankfully with graphics this big, the triggerpoints on objects are very forgiving. :) I have an SBLive full, with full dos emulation so I get that wicky-wicky-wick nostalgic sound :)</quote> Hmmm, I'm using a SB Value, but on Win2k Server. That could be a problem. Actually, I meant to say, I was somewhat impressed that it ran at all.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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<b>#90</b> "mcorleone" wrote... <quote>OOooh! Making progress in AITD! God, even the music brings back memories. Such a great game. If anyone else has started playing the abandonware, can you tell me if you're also having trouble with running? It's supposed to be double-tap up to run, but I guess the computers today are too fast to register the two keypresses as being close together. I wish there was a shift-key modifier. I predict this is going to render the game unplayable once I get out of the mansion...</quote> Try using some thing like MoSlow or Turbo. Personaly I like turbo a bit more (far less complcated to use and it's free), unfotinitly I have no idea where to find it since the version I've been using came off of the PCGamer 12 classics disk. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i> |
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wicky-wicky-wick |
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99TH PSOT!!!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAYNE GRETZKY!!!!!!!!!!################### |
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--+++ --jmc |
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