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Walk Into Wall. Bleed. Repeat.
September 4th 2000, 04:09 MSD by andy NVIDIA owners -- rejoice! Epic have learned from their past mistakes. Owners of other video cards -- sigh in disbelief. Epic are going to make the same mistake again... Epic's Unreal engine was originally designed with 3DFX cards in mind, with its hardware rendering being based around the Glide API. This was because 3DFX cards were expected to be the de facto standard for gaming. It didn't work out that way, though, and as many other 3D cards became popular, so Epic had to adjust their engine to work with Direct3D and OpenGL. Although things got better with Unreal Tournament, and have continued to improve with patching, people still complain of poor (by comparison) frame rates under Direct3D, especially on NVIDIA cards. So do you think Epic have learned by now that it's a bad idea to target specific cards? (Cue the 'Crap masses: No!) Believe it or not -- but you really should believe it because it's true -- Epic have decided to focus their next engine on a specific manufacturer's cards. Again. This time it's NVIDIA cards, as announced in this press release:
Amazing, isn't it? Epic put themselves through a world of pain by focussing on one manufacturer when they believed it was going to dominate the market, and now four years later they're doing the same thing for the same reason. Gee, I wonder if it will all go horribly wrong... |
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Topic: Walk Into Wall. Bleed. Repeat.
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um GL, is GL, is GL if its OpenGL .. its the same on all cards :) btw Hulka, UT runs fine on a TNt2u if youre using the 6.18 drivers (detonator 3) TURN OFF THE FSAA setting DS<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Links, links, links (to hopefully avoid further confusion) D3Ds DXTx http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/directx/ddover_9r1z.htm OpenGLs generic texture compression interface http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/ARB/texture_compression.txt OpenGLs DXTx extension (called S3TC) http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/EXT/texture_compression_s3tc.txt OpenGLs FXT1 extension http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/3DFX/texture_compression_FXT1.txt |
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<b>#77</b> "Darkseid-D" <QUOTE>if youre using the 6.18 drivers (detonator 3) </QUOTE> Umm a LOT of people have had stability problems with D3. And apparently the Direct X is far far slower in 6.18 than it was in 6.11. The OGL is faster. It's almost as if the drivers can be tweaked for DX (Unreal games) or OGL (id games) but not both.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#71</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <QUOTE>you can't say this without knowing what they will use. </QUOTE> You're right. I'm making an assumption that after being hounded over this issue for so long, that this step is the first step toward doing the "right" thing. -Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<B>#54</B> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <QUOTE> <B>xero</B> (#40): <QUOTE> When a friend of mine saw it, he said "Holy shit, it's like Quake3 now, only it includes fun."... </QUOTE> LOL! :) </QUOTE> Speaking of which (what? It's a perfectly good segue...), I recently found myself wondering if there was any place where I could send a damaged UT disk to obtain a replacement? You see, a short time ago, my UT CD developed a crack (I haven't the faintest idea how). When I saw this, words formed. If I posted those words here, not only would Morn throw me off PlanetCrap, he would come to my house, burn it to the ground, and salt the earth. So, I ask again, is there any way I can get a replacement UT CD from Epic (I'll pay S&H, of course)? Or do I have to get a burn from one of my friends? ~~ Ignie Ferroque, Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm" |
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<b>#81</b> "G`Kar" wrote... <QUOTE>So, I ask again, is there any way I can get a replacement UT CD from Epic (I'll pay S&H, of course)? Or do I have to get a burn from one of my friends? </QUOTE> You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. <b>#81</b> "G`Kar" wrote... <QUOTE>You see, a short time ago, my UT CD developed a crack (I haven't the faintest idea how). </QUOTE> Insert cracking the game joke here. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#78</b> "Daniel Vogel" wrote... <QUOTE>OpenGLs DXTx extension (called S3TC) http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/EXT/texture_compression_s3tc.txt </QUOTE> I belive this revision is extreamly important on that one. <i>0.7, 04/11/00 prbrown1: Added issues on DXT1, DXT3, and DXT5 encodings where the MSDN documentation doesn't match what is really done. Added enum values from the extension registry.</i> You know why the MSDN doc's don't fully match what an S#TC would be doing, simply because there are a few differences (not many mind you but they are there). What would be usfull now about be an implentation guide from S3, tho I'd imange that would be very well proteced (prefarably from S3 not an OGL implemtation comming from Intel). Second you've confermed my total hated for FXTC (from what you've posted it's basicly shit anyway). -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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#81 G` Kar said a whole mess of stuff. I'm sending Morn a couple crates of salt and a few thousand napalms so you may want to get your replacement cd now! If I remember correctly, you can call Epic and ask them for a replacement cd. It costs anywhere between $5 and $15 to get it though. You may still want to check out Best Buy. THey may still be selling UT for $18 so that may be better for you. It all depends on how much Epic would charge, wheter or not you want the game now, and if you can wait or not. Dragon ============ If this made any sense to you guys, then you must be crazy. |
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<b>G`Kar</b> (#81): <QUOTE>So, I ask again, is there any way I can get a replacement UT CD from Epic (I'll pay S&H, of course)? Or do I have to get a burn from one of my friends? </QUOTE> I'm not sure personally, but I believe it IS possible. Maybe email Mark Rein and see what he says ... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>G-Man</b> (#82): <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> WTF??<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess? |
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<b>flamethrower</b> (#87): not pirated! backups of UT-disc are done in 15 min ;-) BTW:did you get my mail?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>flamethrower</b> (#87): <QUOTE>G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess? </QUOTE> Umm, how has he been fucked out of his money? He can get a replacement, he just has to contact us. Oh, that doesn't support your cd-protection-is-evil position. Sorry... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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#54 Warren M. wrote: <QUOTE>I'm tempted to give an opinion on this that I believe is Epic's official position, but I'm not going to be the one writing the next renderer ... that'll be Tim. I CAN say that I would be VERY surprised if we didn't go with Direct3D. </QUOTE> Logical choice. I believe DirectX 8 will be more powerful than OGL anyway. |
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#82 G-man wrote: <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. |
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#82 G-man wrote: <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. |
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#82 G-man wrote: <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. |
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OOPS! :-) |
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<b>#90</b> "godZero" wrote... <QUOTE><A href="spy-internal:Load/148#54">#54</A> Warren M. wrote: <quote>I'm tempted to give an opinion on this that I believe is Epic's official position, but I'm not going to be the one writing the next renderer ... that'll be Tim. I CAN say that I would be VERY surprised if we didn't go with Direct3D. </quote> Logical choice. I believe DirectX 8 will be more powerful than OGL anyway. </QUOTE> IMHO, it already is. I've been using it since day one and I swear if they release it with those bugs, I'm telling :-) --- "Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ... but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them. - Warren Marshall" <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower #87: <quote>G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess?</quote> Flamey (or insert your pet name of choice there), How is G'Kar getting fucked? The game has functioned perfectly up until the disk had developed the crack. No offense to G'Kar, but we don't know how he treats his equipment. He might be the type to leave his CD's lying around, which I'd venture to bet COULD lead to his CD getting a crack in it. G'Kar, I am not inferring this about you, I am trying to prove a point, please don't take it as a slam. The ONLY thing about this situation that MIGHT be difficult for G'Kar is waiting for the replacement disk from Epic. I'm the impatient type, I'd rather go back out and spend the $18 at Best Buy to have the disk today than to wait 3-7 days for a new one to arrive. But that's me. ;) Pirating the game is not the answer. God If I hear one more self-righteous person proclaiming that they got fucked by the industry so they feel that it is their (insert diety of choice here)-given right to pirate software, I'm gonna go postal. I can't say that I've purchased EVERY piece of SW I've ever owned, but I sure as hell won't go around telling others that it's ok and it's our right just because we might have purchased one bad game and been burned. If that's the case, then Q3A woulda pushed me over the edge. ;) Warren Marshall #89: <QUOTE>Umm, how has he been fucked out of his money? He can get a replacement, he just has to contact us. Agreed. As Warren points out, many companies have very LIBERAL policies about situations such as this. Oh, that doesn't support your cd-protection-is-evil position. Sorry...</QUOTE> Flamey has taken that position? Coulda fooled me. ;) [@~]Mizu<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<QUOTE> [89] Warren Marshall (NEW!) Umm, how has he been fucked out of his money? He can get a replacement, he just has to contact us. Oh, that doesn't support your cd-protection-is-evil position. Sorry... </QUOTE> He has to contact you. He SURELY has to send proof of sale to you, the broken CD? what would it cost for someone in the UK to do that? Or Lithuania? Or South East Asia? Are you stating that you'll pay all postage for not only G'Kar but everone else who ever contacts you with a similar tale of woe? Then you have the mass cost of sending out the replacement. That's a cost you or the publishers will stump up once or twice, but not en-masse, not that you need to because - believe it or not - most of the world doesn't read Planetcrap. The fools. Finally, there's the delay between him wirting that and being online again, this for a game he's bought once already. Then you have the case where developers go bust, get taken over, vanish, after a game goes gold. Like my personal bugbear, Total Annihlation. A stunning game with a STILL thriving online and mod community (in terms of awesome mods current and in-development TA has truly never been more alive) yet I can't join in because my required-to-be-in-the-CD-bay disc has worn out. I know several people who, over these years, have had to re-purchase the game they paid for once already. That ingrates a level of piss-off so deep you couldn't drag it out of my soul with hooks and chains. Copy protection isn't evil. That has never been my position. My opinion is copy protection only ever harms the people who purchase the game, not the people who crack and pirate it. IE, the people who suffer the most are the ones who least deserve to suffer. And it's only when theat situation changes I'll be happy to stop going on about it. MIZU: <QUOTE> How is G'Kar getting fucked? The game has functioned perfectly up until the disk had developed the crack. </QUOTE> If it was installed on his HD and left there, like, say, Quake, he wouldn't need to be using his UT disk every five minutes. CDs are fragile, fragile media. They wear out, get scratched, and given they are wafer-thin disks of rigid plastic, snap and crack. The more you handle them, the more they are out of the jewel case, the shorter their lifespan. Plus if it was entirely and simply back-upable he'd be able to dupe, or get a dupe, of one. I'm not against copy protection, I'm just saying the id-way of (1) releasing a game like Quake that people WANT to buy or (2) like Q3 putting online authentication that works as long as the company is in business and if they fail, the online authentifcation dissolves and you can play willy nilly. <QUOTE> I can't say that I've purchased EVERY piece of SW I've ever owned, but I sure as hell won't go around telling others that it's ok and it's our right just because we might have purchased one bad game and been burned. </QUOTE> Dude, I do not priate games, not since I got a job. Even at school/college I always bought as many games as I had money to. This is not an industry I have ripped off. It is an industry I have helped fund though no other requirement than my ethical desire to. I could have pirated every game I ever owned. My personal ethics have ensured that is not the case. I don't need a round of appluase (well OK, just a little one) because almost certainly the same applys to you. But you know what? With fucked-up load times, disk-grinding, inability to backup as standard, the requirement to have a CD in the bay (and fuck you playing your own CDs), and let's leave aside the irrelevancy that these fucking games dont work have the time until you've spent fuckloads of money downloading whatever-sized patch from the net, I'm increasingly asking where the fuck is my value for money? As I have said before too many, many times: the people who spend the least on games not only get free games, they get BETTER games than me. And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off. |
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<b>#97</b>, flamethrower: <QUOTE> And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off. </QUOTE> I'm starting to swing over to your side of the fence, for what it's worth. |
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Flamethrower #97: <quote>If it was installed on his HD and left there, like, say, Quake, he wouldn't need to be using his UT disk every five minutes.</quote> Agreed. This is why I DL all the no-cd patches for my games. Not only that, but it tends to speed up load times as well. <quote>CDs are fragile, fragile media. They wear out, get scratched, and given they are wafer-thin disks of rigid plastic, snap and crack. The more you handle them, the more they are out of the jewel case, the shorter their lifespan.</quote> Maybe in your experience, but I am very anal about how my CD's are treated. I have CD's that I have owned for over a decade, they look factory fresh, and that is with listening sessions at least 2-3 times a week. You have to make it a priority to take care of them. Too many gamers don't care because they figure that the game will be obsolete in 6-12 months anyway. Not true..I still get enjoyment every now and then out of my Atari VCS. <quote>Dude, I do not priate games, not since I got a job.</quote> Oh so being unemployed gives you the right...it has all become abundantly clear now... ;P I purchase ALL my games. I have NEVER pirated a game. The are cheap enough that if I wanted it, I'd go out and buy it. I'd almost half-expect you to say programs like 3DSMAX that are waay overpriced and unattainable by the average user, but not $30-$60 games. <quote>I'm increasingly asking where the fuck is my value for money?</quote> That attitude won't get you anywhere bro. You will become so jaded that NO app will live up to your preconcieved notions of what it's supposed to be. If that's the case, you're in the wrong hobby. Try stamp collecting or something. <quote>As I have said before too many, many times: the people who spend the least on games not only get free games, they get BETTER games than me.</quote> How do you figure? With producers/developers using better anti-piracy measures, it is tougher for hackers to just plop the CD in and burn a copy. If a hacker IS able to break the app, it's usually incomplete. I've seen games that hackers have cracked that are buggy as hell, or are missing all CGI sequences. I don't know 'bout you, but I'd rather dish the cash and get the whole game. Not only that, but for novice gamers, installing and running a cracked game COULD mess up their system. Where are they going to go for tech support? Certainly not the company who spent gobs of money to produce this game only to have it stolen under their feet. <quote>And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off.</quote> No I don't. It's not my job. Call a professional. ;P [@~]MizuGami <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower #97 wrote: <quote>And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off.</quote> Andy #98 replied: <quote>I'm starting to swing over to your side of the fence, for what it's worth.</quote> Oh God, here we go. ;) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#100</b>, [@~]MizuGami: <QUOTE> Oh God, here we go. ;) </QUOTE> Hey, most recent game I bought: Lemmings Revolution. Load time: one minute. Load time with CD crack: less than 10 seconds. I get punished by 50 seconds for buying the game? Flamey <i>does</i> have a point. /me points out that I could have just linked to my review of the game, but I wouldn't want to promote my site. :-) |
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MIZU <QUOTE><QUOTE> Dude, I do not priate games, not since I got a job.</QUOTE> Oh so being unemployed gives you the right...</QUOTE> No. Employed as distinct from being a computer-geek student with very little disposable income. As I said, what little I did have went on games too, but certainly I did pirate too. I'm not ashamed either, nobody lost a sale. If someone is genuinely unemployed (and in the UK the only way for someone with any kind of computing skills to be unemployed is to WANT to be unemployed... there is a people & skills shortage at the moment, a very boyant economy) then you know what? I'm less gutted if they, for example, buy one game every three months. Say they buy a game like FAAK2 and finish it in a weekend. Are they supposed to play nothing until they've saved up some (or quite a lot of) pennies. Then someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. I also suggest such people are extremely rare. I hazzard a guess that unemployed/low-income people have more modest computers and so are MUCH more likely to buy the budget-label games of yesteryear that (a) cost a hullova lot less and (b) work on their machines. As I say, I buy games and I have to fight to get a good game compared to the thieves, and I think that's just screwed up. Andy, I wanna know what Lemms is like. LINK LINK LINK -- I'll defend you!!!! :) |
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<b>#102</b>, flamethrower: <QUOTE> Andy, I wanna know what Lemms is like. LINK LINK LINK -- I'll defend you!!!! :) </QUOTE> It's bloody <a href="http://www.meejahor.com/article.phtml?id=6">fantastic</a> mate. It was obviously rushed and there are a lot of annoying glitches, especially in the menus and interface, but the game itself is as much fun as you'd expect, if not more so because it's very funny (in a cute way). |
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<b>[@~]MizuGami</b> (#96): <QUOTE>Flamey has taken that position? Coulda fooled me. ;) </QUOTE> You must be new here. :) <b>flamethrower</b> (#97): <QUOTE>He has to contact you. He SURELY has to send proof of sale to you, the broken CD? what would it cost for someone in the UK to do that? Or Lithuania? Or South East Asia? Are you stating that you'll pay all postage for not only G'Kar but everone else who ever contacts you with a similar tale of woe? Then you have the mass cost of sending out the replacement. That's a cost you or the publishers will stump up once or twice, but not en-masse, not that you need to because - believe it or not - most of the world doesn't read Planetcrap. The fools. Finally, there's the delay between him wirting that and being online again, this for a game he's bought once already. </QUOTE> Yeah, I can see this ... but at least he has the option of getting a new one. It's isn't like he's being told "Oh well, guess you shouldn't have cracked it huh?". <QUOTE>Copy protection isn't evil. That has never been my position. My opinion is copy protection only ever harms the people who purchase the game, not the people who crack and pirate it. IE, the people who suffer the most are the ones who least deserve to suffer. </QUOTE> Oh, fragile my ass. :) I take absolutely SHIT care of my CD's (and DVD's). I have them laying around my desk, some on the floor, some in stacks on top of my computer. They slide around, get dropped ... they slide across each other whenever I thumb through a pile to find the one I want. I have some disks where the underside is full of scratches and marks. And you know what? They work perfectly ... so don't try to sell me "fragile". :) <b>Andy</b> (#101): <QUOTE>Hey, most recent game I bought: Lemmings Revolution. Load time: one minute. Load time with CD crack: less than 10 seconds. I get punished by 50 seconds for buying the game? Flamey <I>does</I> have a point. </QUOTE> Yeah, but we've covered your dinosaur of a PC before haven't we? :) <b>flamethrower</b> (#102): <QUOTE>Then someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. </QUOTE> Ahh, the "If you're poor, it's OK to steal" argument. -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#104</b>, Warren Marshall: <QUOTE> Yeah, but we've covered your dinosaur of a PC before haven't we? :) </QUOTE> How is processor speed even <i>relevant</i> to this subject? Man you can insult me as much as you want if you think it's somehow "bad" that I'm happy with the PC I've got, but <i>puh-lease</i> don't try to write off every single problem with every single product as "Andy's got an old computer". Otherwise I'll have to assume you don't have a proper argument. |
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The following is a paid advertizement from Rant, Inc. It will have no real structure or proper arguments, and the author will just talk out of his ass mostly. You have been warned. <b>Warren Marshall</b> (#104): <QUOTE>Oh, fragile my ass. :) I take absolutely SHIT care of my CD's (and DVD's). I have them laying around my desk, some on the floor, some in stacks on top of my computer. They slide around, get dropped ... they slide across each other whenever I thumb through a pile to find the one I want. I have some disks where the underside is full of scratches and marks. And you know what? They work perfectly ... so don't try to sell me "fragile". :) </QUOTE> I disagree here. Matter of fact, I find that to be bullshit. I have had quite a few CDs stolen, snapped, cracked, scratched (and I mean the actual metal data layer, not the plastic), and so on. Music, game, and software CDs all. I want them back goddammit. When I purchase a game or something, I would like a copy permanently owned by me, not when the media is destroyed. I want to be able to take my CD, smash it and still have a copy avalible to me. This is in fact the case by most laws, but copy protection makes this more and more of a pain in the ass to do. Do I want the CD replaced at the cost of the company? No, they're not obliged to do that for me. But after I pay my money, the game/music/software is <b>MINE</b>. My UT CD is seriously nearing it's death. I can make backup CD's that are good for installing and patching, but they won't pass a CD check and so I must crack the game. You can debate that all you want, but I'm not going to pay for another copy of something I own, even if it's a small charge. No. That may have been worded harshly, but I'm not a pirate and if I'm going to be abused (the abuse in this case being inaccessible data) for proudly paying for software I think is worth it, I'm not going to feel guilty about outright stealing it. <quote>Copy protection isn't evil. That has never been my position. My opinion is copy protection only ever harms the people who purchase the game, not the people who crack and pirate it.</quote> Piracy is something hard to stop. But that does NOT mean companies should just give up altogether. If it affects the consumers in seriously adverse ways, sure it doesn't belong there. But there has to be a balance between our pain and the money they receive otherwise there is just not ONE good reason for them to even bother making good games. As a result, copy protection is evil, but a needed one. I pay for my software because I want to see the companies rewarded for their good work, but this is not the case for many others. Because many don't have the foresight to even consider that they might not ever see Theif 3 because they couldn't cough up $20 fucking dollars for Theif 2 in the bargain bin. Fuckers. Even distros of Linux, which I can -legally- download and burn freely, I buy if they deserve the money. I can understand the few who warez to try games... the truth is you're often not nearly getting the whole package when you download it, so it's like a really big demo. :) But if you keep it and don't bother to pay you're just an inconsiderate ass. I won't call you a theif because the data is being copied and not taken. But that doesn't make you any less of an asshole. Rant over. Made little sense and was very incoherent, but I feel better now. :) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower #102: <quote>someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. </quote> If they have decent ethical standards, then yes I think they will say no. People must live within their means. If someone can't afford to go out and buy a new game every month, then they need to either live with that, or find a less expensive hobby. It pisses me off because it takes money away from the developers who are striving to make our gameplaying experience better (how do you think they do that? REVENUE! Money doesn't fall from the sky ya know.) As far as no lost sales, think about what you typed. Say this jerk goes around and sells a copy of SOF to 20 people at 2 quid a peice (I have no idea what a quid is, BTW). That is equal to roughly $800 in lost sales for Activision/Raven! If everyone in a town did that, then the developers would make no money at all! I'll admit that this example might be a bit extreme, but you get my point. Also, what if the "poor guy" came into some money? Would he go out and buy the legal copy of SOF? Hell no! He'll be thinking, "Why shold I pay good money for a game I got for practically free?" He would then proceed to purchase another game or spend the money on something else. That to me is lost sales if ever there were a definition. <quote>As I say, I buy games and I have to fight to get a good game compared to the thieves, and I think that's just screwed up.</quote> I agree completely. But you know what? Times are changing, and its only a matter of time before developers can come up with a better mousetrap (copy protection that is) to keep these bums from stealing money out of the coffers. I also don't feel that the "I have no money so it's ok to pirate" argument has any weight. If such were the case, should I go break into a Dodge dealership and steal a Viper just because I want one but don't have the financial means needed to purchase one? You have to look at it in a real-world context man. I'm not saying that the current situation isn't shitty. I do think it's unfair that they get the games for free and we have to pay, but I'm a firm believer in what goes around, comes around. <quote>In the UK the only way for someone with any kind of computing skills to be unemployed is to WANT to be unemployed... there is a people & skills shortage at the moment, a very boyant economy</quote> I'm moving to England! ;) [@~]Mizu <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>[@~]MizuGami</b> (#107): <QUOTE>If such were the case, should I go break into a Dodge dealership and steal a Viper just because I want one but don't have the financial means needed to purchase one?</QUOTE> Dammit, this argument is lame. I don't support piracy, but with arguments like this, it sure looks like <b>you</b> do! :P There's a critical hole there that no one ever points out: You can't borrow your friend's Dodge Viper, shove it in your CD-ROM and use your CDR to make another. You can't drag and drop the Doge Viper on to your harddrive without crushing it to peices. You can't duplicate it perfectly 10,000,000,000 times (lol, or even find a place to put them all!). <b>That's the reason most people don't feel guilty about pirating</b>... because they're not taking any physical money/material from the company. And I'd have to agree, I don't think it's stealing. But I do think it's wrong. It's kinda like not paying someone you hire to do work... you could call it 'stealing' their work, but I think that's just twisting the term. It's more like "not paying for services rendered". :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#108</b> "xero" wrote... <QUOTE>You can't drag and drop the Doge Viper on to your harddrive without crushing it to peices.</QUOTE> LOL! If one of my CDs breaks, I'll feel no guilt about pirating the game to replace it. Technically still illegal, but I've already paid for content once and I'll be damned if I would do it again. As for "fragile" CDs... I once mistakenly replaced my AOL coaster CD with my Q3:A CD. I was setting frosty beverages on this thing for about 2 weeks before realizing what happened (my coasters sit with the data side facing up). All I had to do was clean off the gunk and that baby worked like a charm... Jeremy -- Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#106</b> "xero" wrote... <QUOTE>I disagree here. Matter of fact, I find that to be bullshit. I have had quite a few CDs stolen, snapped, cracked, scratched (and I mean the actual metal data layer, not the plastic), and so on. Music, game, and software CDs all. I want them back goddammit. </QUOTE> Acctauly I'd agree with warren, ever try placing a CD in a paper sleave and taking a 2 hour drive (on a nice plush seat), the CD reamins useable and in tip top shape. ALso I tend to take about as good of care to my CD's a warren does, and I've had exacly two CD's go bad on me (The7th Guest do to vary bad scraches, and C&C do to what looks like an eraser mark on the CD and no it does not come off). I've had Playstation CD's used as costers that still work correctly. For them to be snaped, cracked, or to have the foil data layer scrached off you have to be really abusing them (to the same level at people that used to find floppies erased after putting them under a magnet). I can understand them being stolen, but if had you had insurance for it (most car insurance has addon's to cover CD or it might be covered under a home owners policy even when in the car). -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Well, here's an example: Failure - Fantastic Planet CD. Got it around 1996. It's been scratched enough that it's now unreadable. I have CDR copies of it however. What if we didn't have that right? You can talk all you want about taking good care of your CDs, but you cannot stop shit from happening. You can't stop your little kid from playing frisbee with your CDs in feilds near your house (ha, find THAT in the tall grass! :). You can't always stop that bitch at the lan party who tries to steal your CDs because you leave them by your computer while you get some food. You can't always warn your friend in time before he sits his fat ass right down on your Q3A CD, only to realize - you didn't lose much ;). My point is though, no matter how hard you try, you cannot prevent fatal CD damage. Even with non-fatal damage, it often introduces clicks and pops that are very minute into the audio, effecively killing the CD.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Post <b>#101</b> by Andy: <QUOTE><i> /me points out that I could have just linked to my review of the game, but I wouldn't want to promote my site. :-) </i></QUOTE> Ohh please, I start feeling stupid. Look what I've done, with two quick posts I destroyed the HTML's main advantage over printed documents - hyperlinks ;) I don't want to go and touch that pile of crap again, but no matter what I said (though I still stand by every word), it was obviously not applicable to your site or Happy Cow's site or any other site which has roots on and is relevant to 'Crap. There is a *huge* difference between constant poster who posts relevant links to his site from time to time and an occasional stranger who sometimes posts not relevant links to his site; the first person is a part of the discussion and he does his best to contribute to it, and the other one is usually not. To make it shorter, I'll pull a PlanetCrap rule of the day out of my ass: regular posters are allowed to post links to their own sites, and to sites containing porgnography, whichever is more appropriate for the curent discussion; others are also allowed to do so but they risk looking like muckers, at least to some people. Okey, now that I said that I feel better ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Xero #108: <quote>Dammit, this argument is lame. I don't support piracy, but with arguments like this, it sure looks like you do! :P</quote> Of course I do..I <b>WANT</b> that Viper! ;P <quote><b>That's the reason most people don't feel guilty about pirating</b>... because they're not taking any physical money/material from the company. And I'd have to agree, I don't think it's stealing.</quote> I disagree. They don't SEE any physical money/property taken from the company, but it is and it is still stealing. If it's not, then what exactly is it? It sure as hell isn't non-paymet for services rendered. ;) <b>This</b> is why I get pissed off. People know it's wrong, but still refuse to make it tantamount to thievery. I'd like someone to give me an honest definition to what they think it is. I am by far no angel, but if my shit stinks, I'll tell you it stinks. [@~]Mizu <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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what was this topic about again? anyway... copyright law says I can make a back-up copy of a copyrighted work that I legally have access to. So copy protection is simply using technology to keep me from being able to exercise my rights under the law. Same as the whole DeCSS fiasco... they are taking our rights as consumers a little at a time... 12xu out<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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:: Looks around :: Oh, shit. What have I done...? <B>#82</B> "G-Man" wrote... <QUOTE> You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Yes on the first count, but I can't possibly see it taking 30 hours. I've done raw writes before, and they progress at the appropriate speed (8x). Come to think of it, <I>all</I> my writes are raw writes. Also, I rather doubt that I actually need the CD check information. I'm fairly certain I can just copy the files into a directory, and tell the Loki installer that that is my CD-Rom drive. I doubt that it actually reads /dev/cdrom and looks at the CD signature. Even if it does, I can always rip an image of the CD, and do a loopback mount. <B>#91,#92,#93</B> "godZero" wrote... <QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. </QUOTE> What he said. :-) <B>#87</B> "flamethrower" wrote... <QUOTE> G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. </QUOTE> Really? Do tell. If I <I>really</I> want a working, original CD, I'm out (at worst) about $10. If having a burned copy or iso image doesn't bother me, I'm out $0. <QUOTE> You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess? </QUOTE> How would it have been any different? Assuming identical conditions, instead of cracking the original CD, I would have crack the pirated burn. Either way, I'm now the proud owner of a coaster. Watch, now flamey is going to start going off on the poor quality of commercial CDs... << <I>But, G`Kar! If you had a pirated or cracked version, it wouldn't require the CD!</I> >> I <I>can</I> play the game with a no-CD crack (BTW, it doesn't speed up loading times, as far as I can tell). Loading a patch, however, requires the CD. Loading the Linux version <I>definitely</I> requires the CD. Being stuck on v.420 doesn't bother me so much as being stuck with Windows. Face it, flamey; despite your very strong desire to make it thus, this is not a sad tale of the money grubbing publishers and developers screwing their customers with a 40 cm, white-hot anal probe. My CD cracked. Because of this, I can't install the game. That's all. <B>#98</B>, "Andy" wrote... <QUOTE> I'm starting to swing over to your side of the fence, for what it's worth. </QUOTE> No, you don't oppose piracy protection. You oppose poorly implemented piracy protection. <B>#104</B> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <QUOTE> I take absolutely SHIT care of my CD's (and DVD's). I have them laying around my desk, some on the floor, some in stacks on top of my computer. They slide around, get dropped ... they slide across each other whenever I thumb through a pile to find the one I want. I have some disks where the underside is full of scratches and marks. And you know what? They work perfectly ... so don't try to sell me "fragile". :) </QUOTE> I take fairly good care of my CDs. Sometimes I'll leave them on my table data-side up, but not usually for very long. I kept the UT CD in its jewel case. Actually, I think that was the problem: whenever I extracted the CD from the case, I felt like I had to bend it just a <I>little</I> too much, and pry it just a <I>little</I> too hard. The stress was probably too much, and it just... cracked. ~~ Ignie Ferroque, Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm" |
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<b>#115</b> "G`Kar" wrote... <QUOTE>Yes on the first count, but I can't possibly see it taking 30 hours. I've done raw writes before, and they progress at the appropriate speed (8x). Come to think of it, <I>all</I> my writes are raw writes. </QUOTE> Unreal Tournament uses <a href="http://www.c-dilla.com/">SafeDisc</a> protection (actually it depends on the version you bought as the original retail v400 uses release 2 of SafeDisc and v413 uses release 3) which uses a digital signature embedded on the disc and also uses an executable wrapper to authenticate the game. The only way to defeat it is to crack or unwrap the executable or do a 1 to 1 RAW copy of the cd. A small minority of cd drives support true RAW (MMC DAO RAW) mode reading. The reading process itself takes hours because it is very dificult for readers to decode the protected/unreadable sectors (multiple retries and very long error timeouts etc). Yes I was eggagerating with the 30 hour figure (although on some drives it can take 8+ hours) but most drives will take around 2 hours to write an image of a SafeDisc protected CD. It really depends on the implementation (what version of SafeDisc), the burning software used, and the reader used. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Andy</b> (#105): <QUOTE>Man you can insult me as much as you want if you think it's somehow "bad" that I'm happy with the PC I've got, but <I>puh-lease</I> don't try to write off every single problem with every single product as "Andy's got an old computer". </QUOTE> If someone is standing there with a slow machine, and their game loads slow ... and there's a guy there with a fast machine, and his game loads fast ... how is the game at fault? <b>Flamethrower</b> : <QUOTE>someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. </QUOTE> It's stealing. <b>xero</b> (#111): <QUOTE>My point is though, no matter how hard you try, you cannot prevent fatal CD damage. Even with non-fatal damage, it often introduces clicks and pops that are very minute into the audio, effecively killing the CD.</QUOTE> What about VHS video tapes? Many of those (might be all now, I don't know, I haven't had a VHS machine in years) are protected against copying them. And from what I know, the tape is in direct contact with the reading head when you watch them. They wear out. They get grainy. Nobody bitches about that. Why not? :) <b>12xu</b> (#114): <QUOTE>what was this topic about again? </QUOTE> Something people weren't interested in talking about, so they changed the subject? Who cares? We're off topic ... roll with it ... <QUOTE>they are taking our rights as consumers a little at a time... </QUOTE> If people didn't steal software, you'd be able to fully exercise your rights with no hinderences whatsoever. -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#116</b> "G-Man" wrote... <QUOTE>Yes I was eggagerating with the 30 hour figure (although on some drives it can take 8+ hours) but most drives will take around 2 hours to write an image of a SafeDisc protected CD. It really depends on the implementation (what version of SafeDisc), the burning software used, and the reader used. </QUOTE> Well, whatever version the ladies at Raven used, SOF won't run on my Kenwood TrueX drive, but will on my HP 9300i - even though UnrealT runs on both. I guess Raven must've used a different version of Safedisk. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#114</b> "12xu" wrote... <QUOTE>copyright law says I can make a back-up copy of a copyrighted work that I legally have access to. So copy protection is simply using technology to keep me from being able to exercise my rights under the law. </QUOTE> And you know why those laws where enacted, because at the time the media deteriorated over time to an unusable state under normal use (ie a lot of older video tapes become completely unusable just by playing them). CD/DVD's do not have this problem, so could be considered out side of the laws intent on the issue (depends on how far each side would be willing to push it in order to get a definite legal answer as to if they still apply) -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Warren Marshall</b> (#117): <QUOTE>They wear out. They get grainy. Nobody bitches about that. Why not? :) </QUOTE> Actually that's a good example, but it's the same as my ideals: I think I should own a copy for all time, and companies be damned if they can stop me from backing it up. It certainly is illegal to make copies for buddies, but I didn't think it was illegal to make backup copies for <i>yourself</i>. There's also another reason why people don't bitch as much about VHS tapes: as the medium is, being able to backup your 100 movie collection is both very difficult, costly and very time consuming. Not so concerning digital medium. It's very hard to draw examples to help clarify the new digital world because it really is something new... laws will have to be reevaluated for the digital age to protect both consumers and companies.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>None-1a</b> (#119): <QUOTE><B><A href="spy-internal:Load/148#114">#114</A></B> "12xu" wrote... <quote>copyright law says I can make a back-up copy of a copyrighted work that I legally have access to. So copy protection is simply using technology to keep me from being able to exercise my rights under the law. </quote> And you know why those laws where enacted, because at the time the media deteriorated over time to an unusable state under normal use (ie a lot of older video tapes become completely unusable just by playing them). CD/DVD's do not have this problem, so could be considered out side of the laws intent on the issue (depends on how far each side would be willing to push it in order to get a definite legal answer as to if they still apply) -- None-1a. O forget it.</QUOTE> Bullshit. CD's don't last forever.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#118</b> "Derek Smart" wrote... <QUOTE>Well, whatever version the ladies at Raven used, SOF won't run on my Kenwood TrueX drive, but will on my HP 9300i - even though UnrealT runs on both. I guess Raven must've used a different version of Safedisk. </QUOTE> I'm not 100% sure but I don't think that SOF used SafeDisc. Activision doesn't have a licensing arrangement with C-Dilla, although I believe they used to. GT does now but they used to use Laserlock. So they most likely used SecuROM which is one of Sony DADC's daughter companies. But that is weird because they claim to be 100% compliant with yellow book specs. Of course they might have used some other non-proprietary means of protection (illegal TOC, dummy files, oversized images, etc,.) There are some interesting new development in data protection lately, with about 6 new companies and methods entering the fray. It really is an interesting field to watch. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#112</b>, PiRaMidA: <QUOTE> Ohh please, I start feeling stupid. Look what I've done, with two quick posts I destroyed the HTML's main advantage over printed documents - hyperlinks ;) </QUOTE> Heh, no worries, I wasn't taking at shot at you. :-) But just think... the PlanetCrap server is in the US, so every time someone posts a link here, we earn some more money for British Telecom! Now would <i>you</i> want to deprive BT of all that lovely cash?! <b>#117</b>, Warren Marshall: <QUOTE> If someone is standing there with a slow machine, and their game loads slow ... and there's a guy there with a fast machine, and his game loads fast ... how is the game at fault? </QUOTE> Oooh, so close. You should have said: "And there's a guy there with a fast machine, and his game loads <i>faster</i>." It's all comparitive. Reviews that I read yesterday mentioned excessive loading times on fast machines, although I don't think they marked the game down. (Which is fine, if they didn't think it spoiled the game.) |
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<b>Andy</b> (#123): <QUOTE>Oooh, so close. </QUOTE> Dammit. :) -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#121</b> "xero" wrote... <QUOTE>Bullshit. CD's don't last forever</QUOTE> No but under normal use they will out last a persons lifetime, where as most older forms will detariat under that the normal uses which is was design for in a few years (I've got some moview around here are are total shit from a few years of use, where a CD will last when used for what it was made for). CD's should when used with care they will out last you. I'll just differ the rest of this to yourself <b>#120</b> "xero" wrote... <QUOTE>It's very hard to draw examples to help clarify the new digital world because it really is something new... laws will have to be reevaluated for the digital age to protect both consumers and companies.</QUOTE> The current laws around backups where created for media that can and does become unusable by using it in the correct manner, CD/DVD do not have this problem when used as they where designed. No company should ever be required to allow you a way out from something you've done on your own, out side of it's normal use. -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>None-1a</b> (#125): <QUOTE>No but under normal use they will out last a persons lifetime, where as most older forms will detariat under that the normal uses which is was design for in a few years (I've got some moview around here are are total shit from a few years of use, where a CD will last when used for what it was made for). CD's should when used with care they will out last you. I'll just differ the rest of this to yourself</QUOTE> It by no means lasts a lifetime. As I stated before, how I treat my CD's is not relevant to my ownership of the data. I should be able to snap every game CD I have in two and still retain legal rights for that information. The medium it's on and the rights to the data are two separate things. They're not charging me $40 for a CD. <b>None-1a</b> (#125): <QUOTE>The current laws around backups where created for media that can and does become unusable by using it in the correct manner, CD/DVD do not have this problem when used as they where designed. No company should ever be required to allow you a way out from something you've done on your own, out side of it's normal use. </QUOTE> It's not allowing me a "way out of something [I've] done on my own". So I suppose if someone steals the CD it's my fault? That's right. Your argument doesn't hold water, period. CD's are not invicible, and they can be stolen, burned, cracked, scratched, melted, or cut into peices. Shit happens, and it just so happens to fall on CDs as well. If my house burns down, and all my CDs are melted are you going to try telling me putting them in jewel cases and being careful not to scratch them is going to stop that?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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