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Walk Into Wall. Bleed. Repeat.
September 4th 2000, 04:09 CEST by andy NVIDIA owners -- rejoice! Epic have learned from their past mistakes. Owners of other video cards -- sigh in disbelief. Epic are going to make the same mistake again... Epic's Unreal engine was originally designed with 3DFX cards in mind, with its hardware rendering being based around the Glide API. This was because 3DFX cards were expected to be the de facto standard for gaming. It didn't work out that way, though, and as many other 3D cards became popular, so Epic had to adjust their engine to work with Direct3D and OpenGL. Although things got better with Unreal Tournament, and have continued to improve with patching, people still complain of poor (by comparison) frame rates under Direct3D, especially on NVIDIA cards. So do you think Epic have learned by now that it's a bad idea to target specific cards? (Cue the 'Crap masses: No!) Believe it or not -- but you really should believe it because it's true -- Epic have decided to focus their next engine on a specific manufacturer's cards. Again. This time it's NVIDIA cards, as announced in this press release:
Amazing, isn't it? Epic put themselves through a world of pain by focussing on one manufacturer when they believed it was going to dominate the market, and now four years later they're doing the same thing for the same reason. Gee, I wonder if it will all go horribly wrong... |
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Its marketing bullshit. I don't see wtf Epic could get from nVidia, that me, or any other developer, can't get via the nVidia developer program. If they get something that I don't, I'm going to make a big stink about it, make a couple of calls and either get someone fired or cause so much ruckus, you'll know I'm involved. --- "Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ... but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them. - Warren Marshall" <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#2</b> "None-1a" wrote... <QUOTE>Some how I see this as nothing more then supporting Nvidia's hardware t&l and the perpixel shaders, not really a try to get it running the best on Nvidia hardware thing. -- None-1a. O forget it.</QUOTE> Exactly. And knowing Epic, if they can't get their D3D ducks in a row, there's a good chance they'll fuck this up too. T&L is no brainer, any dumb-ass can support it. Per pixel shaders is just one of those fancy thingies nobody is going to use, anytime soon. Here is an interview I recently did, regarding all these new buzzwords. <quote> <b>Would you care to give me your thoughts on the following terms, as well as whether you would support them? Do any of them excite you? Make you wish you had time to implement them? Do you think they are useless marketing ploys, or viable tools? In other words, would you use them in BC and, if you did, how would you? Time is, unfortunately, dwindling, so a prompt reply would make my (and my editors) day. ;)</b> <i>sure thing :-)</i> <b>ATI's Charisma engine/Pixel Tapestry engine</b> <i>This engine on this card, well, lets just say, its about time ATI entered the high-end fray. Because the development of my upcoming game is in the advanced stages with 3-4 months more of development time, I doubt that Battlecruiser Millennium will take advantage of most of these features. T&L support was already planned for the GeForce boards sometime ago, so, we have no issues there. Though the Charisma engine provides some new advancements in multitexturing and blending, they are features that a rendering engine has to take advantage of internally. Therefore, I don't expect very many early adopters of this board's features. I mean, this card just breathes advancements. For one thing, we've had bump mapping support in the BCM engines in lieu of the Matrox G400 boards, for some time now. But due to the huge amount of texture content required for our model database and the limited resources available to us, this feature won't enabled in the shipping version of BCM. However, if the demand is there once BCM ships, I'll have the special bump map texture content done and thus we'll be able to automatically support bump mapping for both the G400 and the Radeon board, via a patch release. And as for key frame interpolation is concerned, I doubt that most of us will be supporting it anytime soon (remember that whole S3TC farce?) due to the fact that its not compatible with any existing content creation methods. To support this requires a tremendous amount of content effort. Vertex skinning is also a sexy feature which I expect to catch on, but again, like key frame interpolation, requires quite a bit of effort. Having a third texture unit in Pixel Tapestry is also very useful in terms of fillrate savings if used in conjunction with several texture passes. When you have an engine that does four to five texture passes, having a third texture unit can very well cut that down to four or even three passes, depending on implementation. The third texture unit certainly allows more scene detail while saving bandwidth. Other features which will most likely go unexplored but which will probably make their way into some products are support for Npatches, depth of field and motion blur, all of which the Radeon supports. I can't say enough good things about this board and to delve into each and every high-end feature, would require an entire article. Being a member of the ATI dev support program, gives us access to all these cool toys, including these Radeon bad boys. Rest assured, as time and resources permit, we'll be making full use of as many features as possible, in future products. It would be such a waste of this card's potential, not to do that. </i> <b>Full-scene anti-aliasing</b> <i>Every power gamer wants a rig with the fastest graphics board in it. But, it becomes a pointless venture if that board comes with a feature that you can only make use of, at low resolutions or one which you have to wait for a developer to support. The Voodoo5 has excellent FSAA support with varying results. This is one of those features that ships with a board, ready to work, right out of the box. But, like everything else, has its limitations. Anyway, ready to work out of the box is a good thing. And wouldn't it be nice if all high-end features in the next-gen boards were like that? :-)</i> <b>Geometry Acceleration</b> <i>Well, what can I say, its the Holy Grail of rendering and the more geometric calculations offloaded to the hardware, the better. One thing to remember though is that most and all of these new hardware initiatives, rely on Microsoft to come through with their DirectX 8 promises in most cases. And since they have a unique penchant for spec changing in midstream, it would interesting to see just how much catching up the hardware vendors have to do, this time around. Being on the DirectX 8 dev program and having had access to it since it went Beta, I can safely say that its very promising and most likely to be the most important DirectX initiative from Microsoft.</i> <b>3DFX's T-Buffer</b> <i>This one is not going to be widely popular because it is only useful on a per application basis.Right now, I'm thinking of this in pretty much the same way I regarded S3TC. It either catches on or it doesn't. And on the off chance that it does, it won't be anytime soon. Its the oldest graphics trick in the books. Lets put a bunch of less than useful features on a board, make it sound cool and hope someone actually finds it cool enough to actually implement it. I wouldn't bet on that anytime soon.</i> <b>Thanks again for your help in this Derek.</b> <i>No problem. And sorry for the late reply, its been one helluva week, especially with that noise last week about my licensing the Serious Engine for a new Xbox project.</i> </quote> <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#33</b> "George Broussard" wrote... <QUOTE>All Epic is doing (I'm sure) is making sure their news stuff runs on nVidia cards with all the bells and whistles. If Epic isn't using D3D then that's another issue, but I suspect they are. </QUOTE> George, Question: what makes you think that Epic would be able to do <i>anything</i> innovative, without going thru D3D. Answer: They can't. (<i>but there is one dumb schmuck out there, who might think thats a good thing. After all, we did it for Glide</i>) Therefore, all I read into this marketing hype, is that Epic are going to, finally, do something about the crappy D3D performance in their engine. In much the same way they hunkered down and actually fixed the net code in UnrealT. This announcement with nVidia, being the perceived leader in the chips market, (<i>which, they're not, last time I checked</i>) is just a marketing gimmick that serves to pave the way for their nextgen engine, in order to alleviate the stigma associated with the crappy D3D support in the Unreal engine. Period. Two guesses what nVidia gets out of it. --- "Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ... but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them. - Warren Marshall" <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Post #62 is why I like Derek so much. You go, boy. Your posts have already cheered up my broken little heart a little. :) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#63</b> "Derek Smart" wrote... <QUOTE>Here is an interview I recently did, regarding all these new buzzwords. </QUOTE> I can see the 'Holy Grail' of any hardware feature turning into getting it put into directX, of course that'd require more open hardware standereds (of course we've seen in the nobody knows thread how fast ideas to get that have their detractors). Take S3TC for example, I see it going down in flames and every one begining to use DXTC instead on most games. <b>#64</b> "Derek Smart" wrote... <QUOTE>This announcement with nVidia, being the perceived leader in the chips market, (<I>which, they're not, last time I checked</I>) </QUOTE> Last I knew ATI was still on top for total market share (or course that's because of the shear number of their low end cheap 'o chips). -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#58</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <QUOTE>Nvidia has unbelievably kewl stuff in their OGL drivers that are not in other cards - these features if chosen significanlt enhance the engine. So if they end up using these features they end up using a proprietry version of OGL specifically targetted for a set of cards. And as Nvidia own the IP to some of featuers we will only see them on other cards if other manufacturers license them or Nvidias death grip is released. Do you see either happening ?</QUOTE> The point was that you can write your renderer to support OGL or D3D and <b>still</b> include support for hardware-specific enhancements. Other engines can render OGL or D3D and selectively support the hardware T&L on systems with the appropriate hardware. You can do this without significantly affecting performance...it's just that some people will get more bells and whistles. The larger issue was the fact that building a new rendering engine using an open-standard API instead of the proprietary GLIDE, is the best decision. As Derek pointed out, this is most-likely raw marketting. It's a peace offering to nVidia owners, letting them know that Epic has "seen the light" and is now actively working to ensure that their products function properly on the card with the largest installed user base. -Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<B>#66</B> "None-1a" wrote... <QUOTE> Take S3TC for example, I see it going down in flames and every one begining to use DXTC instead on most games. </QUOTE> *ahem* DXTC <I>is</I> S3TC, just with a different name. Perhaps you're thinking of 3dfx's FXTC? ~~ Ignie Ferroque, Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm" |
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<b>#57</b> "BloodKnight" wrote... <QUOTE>Can anyone explain to me why an engine can't work with Glide and D3D with good performance in one game?! </QUOTE> I imagine it would take a post several dozen times longer than you would care to read. <b>#61</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <QUOTE>This is relatively delicate architecture and known to brake. </QUOTE> I've been watching for a long time, and I've yet to see you spell the word "break" properly. I'm beginning to think that you don't know how. :) - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#33</b> "George Broussard" wrote... <QUOTE>All Epic is doing (I'm sure) is making sure their news stuff runs on nVidia cards with all the bells and whistles. If Epic isn't using D3D then that's another issue, but I suspect they are. </QUOTE> Man, I wish they would have thought this way a few years ago so I could play the UT game that I spent $50 fucking dollars on! It will not work with my Viper 770 TNT2... It sucks... AHHH!!! --- Frustrated scream.. At least FAKK 2 ran on it, and the Lithtech No One Farts Forever tech demo ran, slowly, but it ran, and it's cute. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#67</b> "Valeyard" wrote... <QUOTE>You can do this without significantly affecting performance...it's just that some people will get more bells and whistles. </QUOTE> you can't say this without knowing what they will use. If they end up using the 4 way skinning stuff or funny normal manipulation stuff or half the kewl ogl 1.2 blend modes then no card is going to match it. They will all be slide shows except for .... Nvidia ! Just because you use an *open* API doesn't mean the result will not be card specific. DX at least forces card manufacturers to open up IP on tech but OGL allows you to hoard it all away. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#69</b> "G-Man" wrote... <QUOTE> <B><A href="spy-internal:Load/148#61">#61</A></B> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <quote>This is relatively delicate architecture and known to brake. </quote> I've been watching for a long time, and I've yet to see you spell the word "break" properly. I'm beginning to think that you don't know how. :)</QUOTE> aww. Big man insults my spelling ... I bash you good now !!! :P <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Sgt Hulka wrote in post #70:</b> <quote>It will not work with my Viper 770 TNT2... </quote> What a beautiful card. I have the Ultra version of it, and I haven't actually needed to replace it until now, when we have super smooth cards out like the Prophet 2 64MB... drool. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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[70] Sgt Hulka "Man, I wish they would have thought this way a few years ago so I could play the UT game that I spent $50 fucking dollars on! It will not work with my Viper 770 TNT2... It sucks... " Did I send that email to the wrong address? I wrote last week, that show stopping bug is fixed by selecting OGL, anything else faz up my video. You may have to hack the ini files if it's looking at an onboard chip. |
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Something to note. Look at DX8's improved features for D3D. Then take a look at the GeForce card. You will notice a SHOCKING similarity between extended features in the API and the features of the card. And Crus... We have chosen wisely ;) |
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<b>#68</b> "G`Kar" wrote... <QUOTE>*ahem* DXTC <I>is</I> S3TC, just with a different name. Perhaps you're thinking of 3dfx's FXTC? </QUOTE> Nop I got em right, DXTC is S3TC but have been changed a bit since the original version for DirectX. At this point S3TC will start to fall to it's enchanced step sister. Second just because a card or game supports S3TC does not mean DXTC will work the same (remember the whole thread on this). And yes I know driver level hacks will get DXTC working on chips using S3's. FXTC is the extrame basterd here, where I wanted something a bit closer. I mean who in their right mind would use FXTC when you've already got a meathod in directX. -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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um GL, is GL, is GL if its OpenGL .. its the same on all cards :) btw Hulka, UT runs fine on a TNt2u if youre using the 6.18 drivers (detonator 3) TURN OFF THE FSAA setting DS<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Links, links, links (to hopefully avoid further confusion) D3Ds DXTx http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/directx/ddover_9r1z.htm OpenGLs generic texture compression interface http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/ARB/texture_compression.txt OpenGLs DXTx extension (called S3TC) http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/EXT/texture_compression_s3tc.txt OpenGLs FXT1 extension http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/3DFX/texture_compression_FXT1.txt |
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<b>#77</b> "Darkseid-D" <QUOTE>if youre using the 6.18 drivers (detonator 3) </QUOTE> Umm a LOT of people have had stability problems with D3. And apparently the Direct X is far far slower in 6.18 than it was in 6.11. The OGL is faster. It's almost as if the drivers can be tweaked for DX (Unreal games) or OGL (id games) but not both.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#71</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <QUOTE>you can't say this without knowing what they will use. </QUOTE> You're right. I'm making an assumption that after being hounded over this issue for so long, that this step is the first step toward doing the "right" thing. -Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<B>#54</B> "Warren Marshall" wrote... <QUOTE> <B>xero</B> (#40): <QUOTE> When a friend of mine saw it, he said "Holy shit, it's like Quake3 now, only it includes fun."... </QUOTE> LOL! :) </QUOTE> Speaking of which (what? It's a perfectly good segue...), I recently found myself wondering if there was any place where I could send a damaged UT disk to obtain a replacement? You see, a short time ago, my UT CD developed a crack (I haven't the faintest idea how). When I saw this, words formed. If I posted those words here, not only would Morn throw me off PlanetCrap, he would come to my house, burn it to the ground, and salt the earth. So, I ask again, is there any way I can get a replacement UT CD from Epic (I'll pay S&H, of course)? Or do I have to get a burn from one of my friends? ~~ Ignie Ferroque, Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm" |
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<b>#81</b> "G`Kar" wrote... <QUOTE>So, I ask again, is there any way I can get a replacement UT CD from Epic (I'll pay S&H, of course)? Or do I have to get a burn from one of my friends? </QUOTE> You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. <b>#81</b> "G`Kar" wrote... <QUOTE>You see, a short time ago, my UT CD developed a crack (I haven't the faintest idea how). </QUOTE> Insert cracking the game joke here. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#78</b> "Daniel Vogel" wrote... <QUOTE>OpenGLs DXTx extension (called S3TC) http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/registry/EXT/texture_compression_s3tc.txt </QUOTE> I belive this revision is extreamly important on that one. <i>0.7, 04/11/00 prbrown1: Added issues on DXT1, DXT3, and DXT5 encodings where the MSDN documentation doesn't match what is really done. Added enum values from the extension registry.</i> You know why the MSDN doc's don't fully match what an S#TC would be doing, simply because there are a few differences (not many mind you but they are there). What would be usfull now about be an implentation guide from S3, tho I'd imange that would be very well proteced (prefarably from S3 not an OGL implemtation comming from Intel). Second you've confermed my total hated for FXTC (from what you've posted it's basicly shit anyway). -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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#81 G` Kar said a whole mess of stuff. I'm sending Morn a couple crates of salt and a few thousand napalms so you may want to get your replacement cd now! If I remember correctly, you can call Epic and ask them for a replacement cd. It costs anywhere between $5 and $15 to get it though. You may still want to check out Best Buy. THey may still be selling UT for $18 so that may be better for you. It all depends on how much Epic would charge, wheter or not you want the game now, and if you can wait or not. Dragon ============ If this made any sense to you guys, then you must be crazy. |
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<b>G`Kar</b> (#81): <QUOTE>So, I ask again, is there any way I can get a replacement UT CD from Epic (I'll pay S&H, of course)? Or do I have to get a burn from one of my friends? </QUOTE> I'm not sure personally, but I believe it IS possible. Maybe email Mark Rein and see what he says ... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>G-Man</b> (#82): <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> WTF??<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess? |
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<b>flamethrower</b> (#87): not pirated! backups of UT-disc are done in 15 min ;-) BTW:did you get my mail?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>flamethrower</b> (#87): <QUOTE>G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess? </QUOTE> Umm, how has he been fucked out of his money? He can get a replacement, he just has to contact us. Oh, that doesn't support your cd-protection-is-evil position. Sorry... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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#54 Warren M. wrote: <QUOTE>I'm tempted to give an opinion on this that I believe is Epic's official position, but I'm not going to be the one writing the next renderer ... that'll be Tim. I CAN say that I would be VERY surprised if we didn't go with Direct3D. </QUOTE> Logical choice. I believe DirectX 8 will be more powerful than OGL anyway. |
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#82 G-man wrote: <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. |
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#82 G-man wrote: <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. |
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#82 G-man wrote: <QUOTE>You can't burn the first disc of UT, unless you have a drive that can really do raw writes and have about 30 hours to kill. </QUOTE> Bull***t. Raw write just has another sector size, everything else is the same, speed-wise. |
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OOPS! :-) |
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<b>#90</b> "godZero" wrote... <QUOTE><A href="spy-internal:Load/148#54">#54</A> Warren M. wrote: <quote>I'm tempted to give an opinion on this that I believe is Epic's official position, but I'm not going to be the one writing the next renderer ... that'll be Tim. I CAN say that I would be VERY surprised if we didn't go with Direct3D. </quote> Logical choice. I believe DirectX 8 will be more powerful than OGL anyway. </QUOTE> IMHO, it already is. I've been using it since day one and I swear if they release it with those bugs, I'm telling :-) --- "Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ... but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them. - Warren Marshall" <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower #87: <quote>G'Kars is another sad story of an honest gamer getting fucked out of their money. You do know, G'Kar, if you'd have priated this game you shouldn't be in this mess?</quote> Flamey (or insert your pet name of choice there), How is G'Kar getting fucked? The game has functioned perfectly up until the disk had developed the crack. No offense to G'Kar, but we don't know how he treats his equipment. He might be the type to leave his CD's lying around, which I'd venture to bet COULD lead to his CD getting a crack in it. G'Kar, I am not inferring this about you, I am trying to prove a point, please don't take it as a slam. The ONLY thing about this situation that MIGHT be difficult for G'Kar is waiting for the replacement disk from Epic. I'm the impatient type, I'd rather go back out and spend the $18 at Best Buy to have the disk today than to wait 3-7 days for a new one to arrive. But that's me. ;) Pirating the game is not the answer. God If I hear one more self-righteous person proclaiming that they got fucked by the industry so they feel that it is their (insert diety of choice here)-given right to pirate software, I'm gonna go postal. I can't say that I've purchased EVERY piece of SW I've ever owned, but I sure as hell won't go around telling others that it's ok and it's our right just because we might have purchased one bad game and been burned. If that's the case, then Q3A woulda pushed me over the edge. ;) Warren Marshall #89: <QUOTE>Umm, how has he been fucked out of his money? He can get a replacement, he just has to contact us. Agreed. As Warren points out, many companies have very LIBERAL policies about situations such as this. Oh, that doesn't support your cd-protection-is-evil position. Sorry...</QUOTE> Flamey has taken that position? Coulda fooled me. ;) [@~]Mizu<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<QUOTE> [89] Warren Marshall (NEW!) Umm, how has he been fucked out of his money? He can get a replacement, he just has to contact us. Oh, that doesn't support your cd-protection-is-evil position. Sorry... </QUOTE> He has to contact you. He SURELY has to send proof of sale to you, the broken CD? what would it cost for someone in the UK to do that? Or Lithuania? Or South East Asia? Are you stating that you'll pay all postage for not only G'Kar but everone else who ever contacts you with a similar tale of woe? Then you have the mass cost of sending out the replacement. That's a cost you or the publishers will stump up once or twice, but not en-masse, not that you need to because - believe it or not - most of the world doesn't read Planetcrap. The fools. Finally, there's the delay between him wirting that and being online again, this for a game he's bought once already. Then you have the case where developers go bust, get taken over, vanish, after a game goes gold. Like my personal bugbear, Total Annihlation. A stunning game with a STILL thriving online and mod community (in terms of awesome mods current and in-development TA has truly never been more alive) yet I can't join in because my required-to-be-in-the-CD-bay disc has worn out. I know several people who, over these years, have had to re-purchase the game they paid for once already. That ingrates a level of piss-off so deep you couldn't drag it out of my soul with hooks and chains. Copy protection isn't evil. That has never been my position. My opinion is copy protection only ever harms the people who purchase the game, not the people who crack and pirate it. IE, the people who suffer the most are the ones who least deserve to suffer. And it's only when theat situation changes I'll be happy to stop going on about it. MIZU: <QUOTE> How is G'Kar getting fucked? The game has functioned perfectly up until the disk had developed the crack. </QUOTE> If it was installed on his HD and left there, like, say, Quake, he wouldn't need to be using his UT disk every five minutes. CDs are fragile, fragile media. They wear out, get scratched, and given they are wafer-thin disks of rigid plastic, snap and crack. The more you handle them, the more they are out of the jewel case, the shorter their lifespan. Plus if it was entirely and simply back-upable he'd be able to dupe, or get a dupe, of one. I'm not against copy protection, I'm just saying the id-way of (1) releasing a game like Quake that people WANT to buy or (2) like Q3 putting online authentication that works as long as the company is in business and if they fail, the online authentifcation dissolves and you can play willy nilly. <QUOTE> I can't say that I've purchased EVERY piece of SW I've ever owned, but I sure as hell won't go around telling others that it's ok and it's our right just because we might have purchased one bad game and been burned. </QUOTE> Dude, I do not priate games, not since I got a job. Even at school/college I always bought as many games as I had money to. This is not an industry I have ripped off. It is an industry I have helped fund though no other requirement than my ethical desire to. I could have pirated every game I ever owned. My personal ethics have ensured that is not the case. I don't need a round of appluase (well OK, just a little one) because almost certainly the same applys to you. But you know what? With fucked-up load times, disk-grinding, inability to backup as standard, the requirement to have a CD in the bay (and fuck you playing your own CDs), and let's leave aside the irrelevancy that these fucking games dont work have the time until you've spent fuckloads of money downloading whatever-sized patch from the net, I'm increasingly asking where the fuck is my value for money? As I have said before too many, many times: the people who spend the least on games not only get free games, they get BETTER games than me. And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off. |
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<b>#97</b>, flamethrower: <QUOTE> And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off. </QUOTE> I'm starting to swing over to your side of the fence, for what it's worth. |
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Flamethrower #97: <quote>If it was installed on his HD and left there, like, say, Quake, he wouldn't need to be using his UT disk every five minutes.</quote> Agreed. This is why I DL all the no-cd patches for my games. Not only that, but it tends to speed up load times as well. <quote>CDs are fragile, fragile media. They wear out, get scratched, and given they are wafer-thin disks of rigid plastic, snap and crack. The more you handle them, the more they are out of the jewel case, the shorter their lifespan.</quote> Maybe in your experience, but I am very anal about how my CD's are treated. I have CD's that I have owned for over a decade, they look factory fresh, and that is with listening sessions at least 2-3 times a week. You have to make it a priority to take care of them. Too many gamers don't care because they figure that the game will be obsolete in 6-12 months anyway. Not true..I still get enjoyment every now and then out of my Atari VCS. <quote>Dude, I do not priate games, not since I got a job.</quote> Oh so being unemployed gives you the right...it has all become abundantly clear now... ;P I purchase ALL my games. I have NEVER pirated a game. The are cheap enough that if I wanted it, I'd go out and buy it. I'd almost half-expect you to say programs like 3DSMAX that are waay overpriced and unattainable by the average user, but not $30-$60 games. <quote>I'm increasingly asking where the fuck is my value for money?</quote> That attitude won't get you anywhere bro. You will become so jaded that NO app will live up to your preconcieved notions of what it's supposed to be. If that's the case, you're in the wrong hobby. Try stamp collecting or something. <quote>As I have said before too many, many times: the people who spend the least on games not only get free games, they get BETTER games than me.</quote> How do you figure? With producers/developers using better anti-piracy measures, it is tougher for hackers to just plop the CD in and burn a copy. If a hacker IS able to break the app, it's usually incomplete. I've seen games that hackers have cracked that are buggy as hell, or are missing all CGI sequences. I don't know 'bout you, but I'd rather dish the cash and get the whole game. Not only that, but for novice gamers, installing and running a cracked game COULD mess up their system. Where are they going to go for tech support? Certainly not the company who spent gobs of money to produce this game only to have it stolen under their feet. <quote>And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off.</quote> No I don't. It's not my job. Call a professional. ;P [@~]MizuGami <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower #97 wrote: <quote>And you really have no idea why I am so pissed off.</quote> Andy #98 replied: <quote>I'm starting to swing over to your side of the fence, for what it's worth.</quote> Oh God, here we go. ;) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#100</b>, [@~]MizuGami: <QUOTE> Oh God, here we go. ;) </QUOTE> Hey, most recent game I bought: Lemmings Revolution. Load time: one minute. Load time with CD crack: less than 10 seconds. I get punished by 50 seconds for buying the game? Flamey <i>does</i> have a point. /me points out that I could have just linked to my review of the game, but I wouldn't want to promote my site. :-) |
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MIZU <QUOTE><QUOTE> Dude, I do not priate games, not since I got a job.</QUOTE> Oh so being unemployed gives you the right...</QUOTE> No. Employed as distinct from being a computer-geek student with very little disposable income. As I said, what little I did have went on games too, but certainly I did pirate too. I'm not ashamed either, nobody lost a sale. If someone is genuinely unemployed (and in the UK the only way for someone with any kind of computing skills to be unemployed is to WANT to be unemployed... there is a people & skills shortage at the moment, a very boyant economy) then you know what? I'm less gutted if they, for example, buy one game every three months. Say they buy a game like FAAK2 and finish it in a weekend. Are they supposed to play nothing until they've saved up some (or quite a lot of) pennies. Then someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. I also suggest such people are extremely rare. I hazzard a guess that unemployed/low-income people have more modest computers and so are MUCH more likely to buy the budget-label games of yesteryear that (a) cost a hullova lot less and (b) work on their machines. As I say, I buy games and I have to fight to get a good game compared to the thieves, and I think that's just screwed up. Andy, I wanna know what Lemms is like. LINK LINK LINK -- I'll defend you!!!! :) |
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<b>#102</b>, flamethrower: <QUOTE> Andy, I wanna know what Lemms is like. LINK LINK LINK -- I'll defend you!!!! :) </QUOTE> It's bloody <a href="http://www.meejahor.com/article.phtml?id=6">fantastic</a> mate. It was obviously rushed and there are a lot of annoying glitches, especially in the menus and interface, but the game itself is as much fun as you'd expect, if not more so because it's very funny (in a cute way). |
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<b>[@~]MizuGami</b> (#96): <QUOTE>Flamey has taken that position? Coulda fooled me. ;) </QUOTE> You must be new here. :) <b>flamethrower</b> (#97): <QUOTE>He has to contact you. He SURELY has to send proof of sale to you, the broken CD? what would it cost for someone in the UK to do that? Or Lithuania? Or South East Asia? Are you stating that you'll pay all postage for not only G'Kar but everone else who ever contacts you with a similar tale of woe? Then you have the mass cost of sending out the replacement. That's a cost you or the publishers will stump up once or twice, but not en-masse, not that you need to because - believe it or not - most of the world doesn't read Planetcrap. The fools. Finally, there's the delay between him wirting that and being online again, this for a game he's bought once already. </QUOTE> Yeah, I can see this ... but at least he has the option of getting a new one. It's isn't like he's being told "Oh well, guess you shouldn't have cracked it huh?". <QUOTE>Copy protection isn't evil. That has never been my position. My opinion is copy protection only ever harms the people who purchase the game, not the people who crack and pirate it. IE, the people who suffer the most are the ones who least deserve to suffer. </QUOTE> Oh, fragile my ass. :) I take absolutely SHIT care of my CD's (and DVD's). I have them laying around my desk, some on the floor, some in stacks on top of my computer. They slide around, get dropped ... they slide across each other whenever I thumb through a pile to find the one I want. I have some disks where the underside is full of scratches and marks. And you know what? They work perfectly ... so don't try to sell me "fragile". :) <b>Andy</b> (#101): <QUOTE>Hey, most recent game I bought: Lemmings Revolution. Load time: one minute. Load time with CD crack: less than 10 seconds. I get punished by 50 seconds for buying the game? Flamey <I>does</I> have a point. </QUOTE> Yeah, but we've covered your dinosaur of a PC before haven't we? :) <b>flamethrower</b> (#102): <QUOTE>Then someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. </QUOTE> Ahh, the "If you're poor, it's OK to steal" argument. -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#104</b>, Warren Marshall: <QUOTE> Yeah, but we've covered your dinosaur of a PC before haven't we? :) </QUOTE> How is processor speed even <i>relevant</i> to this subject? Man you can insult me as much as you want if you think it's somehow "bad" that I'm happy with the PC I've got, but <i>puh-lease</i> don't try to write off every single problem with every single product as "Andy's got an old computer". Otherwise I'll have to assume you don't have a proper argument. |
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The following is a paid advertizement from Rant, Inc. It will have no real structure or proper arguments, and the author will just talk out of his ass mostly. You have been warned. <b>Warren Marshall</b> (#104): <QUOTE>Oh, fragile my ass. :) I take absolutely SHIT care of my CD's (and DVD's). I have them laying around my desk, some on the floor, some in stacks on top of my computer. They slide around, get dropped ... they slide across each other whenever I thumb through a pile to find the one I want. I have some disks where the underside is full of scratches and marks. And you know what? They work perfectly ... so don't try to sell me "fragile". :) </QUOTE> I disagree here. Matter of fact, I find that to be bullshit. I have had quite a few CDs stolen, snapped, cracked, scratched (and I mean the actual metal data layer, not the plastic), and so on. Music, game, and software CDs all. I want them back goddammit. When I purchase a game or something, I would like a copy permanently owned by me, not when the media is destroyed. I want to be able to take my CD, smash it and still have a copy avalible to me. This is in fact the case by most laws, but copy protection makes this more and more of a pain in the ass to do. Do I want the CD replaced at the cost of the company? No, they're not obliged to do that for me. But after I pay my money, the game/music/software is <b>MINE</b>. My UT CD is seriously nearing it's death. I can make backup CD's that are good for installing and patching, but they won't pass a CD check and so I must crack the game. You can debate that all you want, but I'm not going to pay for another copy of something I own, even if it's a small charge. No. That may have been worded harshly, but I'm not a pirate and if I'm going to be abused (the abuse in this case being inaccessible data) for proudly paying for software I think is worth it, I'm not going to feel guilty about outright stealing it. <quote>Copy protection isn't evil. That has never been my position. My opinion is copy protection only ever harms the people who purchase the game, not the people who crack and pirate it.</quote> Piracy is something hard to stop. But that does NOT mean companies should just give up altogether. If it affects the consumers in seriously adverse ways, sure it doesn't belong there. But there has to be a balance between our pain and the money they receive otherwise there is just not ONE good reason for them to even bother making good games. As a result, copy protection is evil, but a needed one. I pay for my software because I want to see the companies rewarded for their good work, but this is not the case for many others. Because many don't have the foresight to even consider that they might not ever see Theif 3 because they couldn't cough up $20 fucking dollars for Theif 2 in the bargain bin. Fuckers. Even distros of Linux, which I can -legally- download and burn freely, I buy if they deserve the money. I can understand the few who warez to try games... the truth is you're often not nearly getting the whole package when you download it, so it's like a really big demo. :) But if you keep it and don't bother to pay you're just an inconsiderate ass. I won't call you a theif because the data is being copied and not taken. But that doesn't make you any less of an asshole. Rant over. Made little sense and was very incoherent, but I feel better now. :) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower #102: <quote>someone says "give me two quid and I'll burn you SOF". You really think they'll say no? You really think Raven lost a sale? That person has no money, no possibility of buying a game. </quote> If they have decent ethical standards, then yes I think they will say no. People must live within their means. If someone can't afford to go out and buy a new game every month, then they need to either live with that, or find a less expensive hobby. It pisses me off because it takes money away from the developers who are striving to make our gameplaying experience better (how do you think they do that? REVENUE! Money doesn't fall from the sky ya know.) As far as no lost sales, think about what you typed. Say this jerk goes around and sells a copy of SOF to 20 people at 2 quid a peice (I have no idea what a quid is, BTW). That is equal to roughly $800 in lost sales for Activision/Raven! If everyone in a town did that, then the developers would make no money at all! I'll admit that this example might be a bit extreme, but you get my point. Also, what if the "poor guy" came into some money? Would he go out and buy the legal copy of SOF? Hell no! He'll be thinking, "Why shold I pay good money for a game I got for practically free?" He would then proceed to purchase another game or spend the money on something else. That to me is lost sales if ever there were a definition. <quote>As I say, I buy games and I have to fight to get a good game compared to the thieves, and I think that's just screwed up.</quote> I agree completely. But you know what? Times are changing, and its only a matter of time before developers can come up with a better mousetrap (copy protection that is) to keep these bums from stealing money out of the coffers. I also don't feel that the "I have no money so it's ok to pirate" argument has any weight. If such were the case, should I go break into a Dodge dealership and steal a Viper just because I want one but don't have the financial means needed to purchase one? You have to look at it in a real-world context man. I'm not saying that the current situation isn't shitty. I do think it's unfair that they get the games for free and we have to pay, but I'm a firm believer in what goes around, comes around. <quote>In the UK the only way for someone with any kind of computing skills to be unemployed is to WANT to be unemployed... there is a people & skills shortage at the moment, a very boyant economy</quote> I'm moving to England! ;) [@~]Mizu <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>[@~]MizuGami</b> (#107): <QUOTE>If such were the case, should I go break into a Dodge dealership and steal a Viper just because I want one but don't have the financial means needed to purchase one?</QUOTE> Dammit, this argument is lame. I don't support piracy, but with arguments like this, it sure looks like <b>you</b> do! :P There's a critical hole there that no one ever points out: You can't borrow your friend's Dodge Viper, shove it in your CD-ROM and use your CDR to make another. You can't drag and drop the Doge Viper on to your harddrive without crushing it to peices. You can't duplicate it perfectly 10,000,000,000 times (lol, or even find a place to put them all!). <b>That's the reason most people don't feel guilty about pirating</b>... because they're not taking any physical money/material from the company. And I'd have to agree, I don't think it's stealing. But I do think it's wrong. It's kinda like not paying someone you hire to do work... you could call it 'stealing' their work, but I think that's just twisting the term. It's more like "not paying for services rendered". :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#108</b> "xero" wrote... <QUOTE>You can't drag and drop the Doge Viper on to your harddrive without crushing it to peices.</QUOTE> LOL! If one of my CDs breaks, I'll feel no guilt about pirating the game to replace it. Technically still illegal, but I've already paid for content once and I'll be damned if I would do it again. As for "fragile" CDs... I once mistakenly replaced my AOL coaster CD with my Q3:A CD. I was setting frosty beverages on this thing for about 2 weeks before realizing what happened (my coasters sit with the data side facing up). All I had to do was clean off the gunk and that baby worked like a charm... Jeremy -- Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#106</b> "xero" wrote... <QUOTE>I disagree here. Matter of fact, I find that to be bullshit. I have had quite a few CDs stolen, snapped, cracked, scratched (and I mean the actual metal data layer, not the plastic), and so on. Music, game, and software CDs all. I want them back goddammit. </QUOTE> Acctauly I'd agree with warren, ever try placing a CD in a paper sleave and taking a 2 hour drive (on a nice plush seat), the CD reamins useable and in tip top shape. ALso I tend to take about as good of care to my CD's a warren does, and I've had exacly two CD's go bad on me (The7th Guest do to vary bad scraches, and C&C do to what looks like an eraser mark on the CD and no it does not come off). I've had Playstation CD's used as costers that still work correctly. For them to be snaped, cracked, or to have the foil data layer scrached off you have to be really abusing them (to the same level at people that used to find floppies erased after putting them under a magnet). I can understand them being stolen, but if had you had insurance for it (most car insurance has addon's to cover CD or it might be covered under a home owners policy even when in the car). -- None-1a. O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Well, here's an example: Failure - Fantastic Planet CD. Got it around 1996. It's been scratched enough that it's now unreadable. I have CDR copies of it however. What if we didn't have that right? You can talk all you want about taking good care of your CDs, but you cannot stop shit from happening. You can't stop your little kid from playing frisbee with your CDs in feilds near your house (ha, find THAT in the tall grass! :). You can't always stop that bitch at the lan party who tries to steal your CDs because you leave them by your computer while you get some food. You can't always warn your friend in time before he sits his fat ass right down on your Q3A CD, only to realize - you didn't lose much ;). My point is though, no matter how hard you try, you cannot prevent fatal CD damage. Even with non-fatal damage, it often introduces clicks and pops that are very minute into the audio, effecively killing the CD.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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