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Those Heartless Epic Bastards
August 26th 2000, 04:06 CEST by andy We've had the monthly 3DR-bashing topic so that can only mean one thing... It's time to give the Epic boys another swift kick in their collective gut! The team behind RealCTF, a popular Unreal mod, recently released their follow-up project, Real Tournament for UT. But alas, there are problems in the land of mod, and at the same time as releasing Real Tournament, the team's programmer Brett "mouse" Foster went public with what he describes as the "sad story" of why the add-on wasn't released commercially. Oh, btw -- that thing about giving Epic a kick in the gut? Only joking. Epic is actually the victim here... The upshot of the "sad story" is that Epic somehow misled the Real Tournament team, giving them the impression that the add-on would be released commercially and with Epic's endorsement. What's worrying is that in the hands of someone whose brain isn't firing on all cylinders -- which, let's face it, is true of a lot of the 'younger' gamers -- this story could unfairly make Epic look bad. "Those heartless Epic bastards are screwing the mod community!" You can imagine the trollish rantings on message boards everywhere... But the e-mails from Epic, also posted by Brett Foster, actually show that this wasn't the case at all. For instance, back in June 1999 when the Real Tournament team first pitched their new idea, Epic's Cliff Bleszinski replied:
It's hardly a promise, is it? Truth be told, it's more like a diplomatic brush-off. The very worst criticism that could be made of Epic is that in the later stages of the project, they did give the impression that there was a chance of it being released commercially, and then went very quiet when it became clear that it wasn't going to happen. At that point, a blunt "no" would have been a good idea, instead of leaving e-mails from the Real Tournament team unanswered. So, slapped wrists all round, I think. But Epic certainly haven't behaved as badly as Brett Foster's story may be seen to suggest. And finally: When you've finished reading through the "sad story", decide for yourself if you think the Real Tournament team were more concerned with making a great product, or most interested in getting a commercial release... |
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Jeremy you are incorrect. Email is has no implied copyright - as someone else stated it is considered conversation. There are few times that there is any protection to email. 1)If there is a direct oral or written agreement not to disclose email or another contract like a NDA. Under a NDA, all communication is normally covered. 2)You are a third party that intercepted the mail - accidental wrong addresses do not count. You cannot send someone an email and say do not post this email. Well you could, but they could post it. We just did that with no fear - opening an email is not an implied agreement to anything contained inside. The biggest grey line in the gaming world would have been the posting of the Ion emails by the dallas observer. The email by employees is technically the company's property. Since the emails were not sent to the dallas observer directly they could have been sued which they were but ion lost because they had no company rule (in a handbook or memo that the employees agreed to) that said you cannot send out intra company email to a third party. I believe they eventually enacted this rule after the story. Chet |
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Boy, I can't type when I am in a hurry |
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<b>#119</b> "Andy" George's e-mail: He was asking that I be removed from PlanetCrap because he claimed I was biased against 3DR, but his e-mail showed that the truth was more likely that he just doesn't like me personally. So I was justified in posting it. (If self-defence doesn't class as "fair use" then I don't know what does!) </QUOTE> Also, it wasn't an agreed private correspondence between you and George initiated under the understanding of confidentiality. This was a rant against you which was <i>possibly</i> accidentally to you. The unsolicited abuse cost YOU money to download. It's just too fucking rich for the sender, or a friend of the sender, to complain that you use this piece of material you PAID for. In other words: if you don't want your enemy to post your hate-mail, try not sending it to them!! <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#126</b> "Chet" <QUOTE>The biggest grey line in the gaming world would have been the posting of the Ion emails by the dallas observer. The email by employees is technically the company's property. Since the emails were not sent to the dallas observer directly they could have been sued which they were but ion lost because they had no company rule (in a handbook or memo that the employees agreed to) that said you cannot send out intra company email to a third party. I believe they eventually enacted this rule after the story. </QUOTE> Also, Porter characteristically foolishly asked the investigative journalist to PROVE her story/claims or be sued. So she did. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Maybe off topic, but still quite interesting I think. I've been checking out PC already for several months now, and I came to a weird conclusion : The people/company's that are bashed the most here, are the ones that post the most... Maybe you don't think so, but I find that weird. Ofcourse, company's like to defend themselves, but like with George Broussard, he keeps coming here, claiming that Andy is some stupid idiot. What I ask myself is the following : George, if you really find Andy to be so full of bullshit, why do you actually take the time to reply on his "far-fetched" topics ? If I were in your case, I would stop paying attention to him... Why answer to someone that isn't capable of making correct conclusions about your company ? (no offense Andy, just looking through the eyes of George for a moment) The same for all the other developers that visit PC frequently I might say (like Jason Hall f.i., but it's been quite some time since Monolith's got a bashing :p) Speed, Fragland.net |
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*shrug* Say what you will...but anyone who posts private emails are basically punks. Period. Unless there is something illegal in the email or someone is at harm...you're just acting like a 4 year old on a playground. *sniff sinff* "Look what so and so said about me....WAAAAAA....CRY". Punks. Of course I could be wrong...but then again I wouldn't really do such a thing. Long as you know people only do it for page hits, scoop, or to "get someone", then it's all really reduced to petty nonsense and that 3rd grade sandbox isn't it? George Broussard, 3D Realms |
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There's something about George's use of the word "punks" that really grips my funny bone. (The haha one, you sick bastards.) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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OHHHHH GOOD, CLIFFY B THE FAGOT IS ON... Hey Cliffy B. are you mad because IDSoft didn't hire you so you went out and copied all their games and put a million nali healing plants in them all? |
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<b>#131</b> "George Broussard" <QUOTE>*shrug* Say what you will...but anyone who posts private emails are basically punks. Period. Unless there is something illegal in the email or someone is at harm...you're just acting like a 4 year old on a playground. *sniff sinff* "Look what so and so said about me....WAAAAAA....CRY". Punks. Of course I could be wrong...but then again I wouldn't really do such a thing. Long as you know people only do it for page hits, scoop, or to "get someone", then it's all really reduced to petty nonsense and that 3rd grade sandbox isn't it? George Broussard, 3D Realms </QUOTE> Call me a nosey evil bastard or come it yourself George. Are you saying you don't gossip about others misfortune in private? Don't say that. Everyone likes a private bitch (and indeed, would like to keep a private bitch, preferably one in each port and town). See, we don't think this here Net place is public, to a degree, it's private. A network of private clubs that are by design or lack of awareness, private clubs. The membership can be in the tens, or the tens of thousands. It's still a club, people come here, to join. It's not like watching the news and having this information presented to you, people come onto the net to search for it, persue it. This is a private PlanetCrap club to which the world is invited but, in the main, chooses not attend. Actually, PlanetCrap is a Gay Fight Club for people who stare for hours into neon tubes. Or at least, the membership are. They don't want to rip anyone apart, they just want to gather together to nibble at people dissaprovingly. Frowners, dissaprovers, or the indignantly outraged. Anyone who looks a bit tasty (an English expression for possibly being particually competent in a brawl) is labeled "Troll". We're given labels to wear and forced into our own compounds. I don't care. I'm a visitor. I throw message-wrapped bricks through the window and stagger on by. You're here for different reasons, business, like: research or rumour control; plus of course your desperate search for friends under thirty. So personal emails are posted here and read, so what? Is that so very different to you going to have dinner with friends from the company/companies you're friendly with and bitching about him, her, and their brother? Don't tell me you never do such things, don't tell me that. Oh year, one other thing, "cock" to remaining on topic. :) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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neoFlamethrower stands up in the subway spits out some blood and does the patented bent-elbow air-punch<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I think this mouse guy has pretty much ruined his chances of getting much respect from Epic in the future... I mean, once you post a companies private emails and you shouldn't expect them to really ever want to talk to you again... |
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<b>flamethrower</b> (#134): <QUOTE>Anyone who looks a bit tasty (an English expression for possibly being particually competent in a brawl) is labeled "Troll". We're given labels to wear and forced into our own compounds. </QUOTE> Am I to take this to mean that you consider trolls to be good debaters? And competent ones at that?! -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<i>I think this mouse guy has pretty much ruined his chances of getting much respect from Epic in the future... I mean, once you post a companies private emails and you shouldn't expect them to really ever want to talk to you again... </i> Well that'd just be plain silly. Mouse is a hellaciously sharp tack. |
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<quote>Or at least, the membership are. They don't want to rip anyone apart, they just want to gather together to nibble at people dissaprovingly. Frowners, dissaprovers, or the indignantly outraged</quote> Oh, I don't know. I suspect folk malinger here because it's so amusing. |
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For the people who think that email is not copywritten... You are, quite simply, wrong. Email is not "conversation" (although it has its own bevvy of special case law which keeps getting expanded). It is a written form of communications. For any person in a country signatory to the Berne Convention (and I suspect most if not all of the people in this conversation are), copyright attaches as soon as as a copywriteable item (such as prose) is put into a concrete form. Computers count. CP (Incidentally, if anyone starts nattering on about mailing yourself a copy as "the poor man's copyright", tell them to consult an attorney. All you prove is that you could have steamed an envelope. In the United States, sending a copy /to/ your attorney would suffice to prove a date.) |
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#140 you are somewhat correct. email is personal property yes, but it is not good in court unless one goes an copywrites the email. which can be done... of course past that you would have to prove that use was causing ill harm, which in many cases is easily done, but in this... i dont think so. GM - bed time! <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Colonel Pseudonymous Yes and No. Email is not considered a publication - if it has been please feel free to link to it. It is not covered by simple copyright like a website. There is no need to mail something to yourself - there is an implied copyright to all items created for publication. You can’t take someone’s email and say it is your own or to alter the email and present it as the original. The act of sending someone the mail (you are sending that person your original work) give them use rights. There is an implied agreement between the two parties. Most copyright cases are based on the value of the work and the loss of its value - the change to the original works market value. This has no place in the posting of an email. The original email has next to no value and by disseminating the mail - you do not lessen its worth further. A word of warning. Link all you want to academic writing about email and copyright. Means nothing. The courts have decided and have always allowed the revealing of an email by the recipient or a third party that the recipient has given the mail to (NDA’s etc aside as those have held up) or the revealing by an accidental recipient. We just posted an email (on portalofevil) sent to us that had a copyright notice attached. We consulted our lawyers and they laughed. Actually they laughed hardest at part at the end of the email that said if this was sent to you in error do not read it... a little late. The reason for posting was a joke and this person knew full well we would post it. It was not a private conversation (I add this so George doesn't call me a punk). Chet |
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<b>#140</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "Colonel Pseudonymous" wrote: <QUOTE>For any person in a country signatory to the Berne Convention (and I suspect most if not all of the people in this conversation are), copyright attaches as soon as as a copywriteable item (such as prose) is put into a concrete form. Computers count. CP (Incidentally, if anyone starts nattering on about mailing yourself a copy as "the poor man's copyright", tell them to consult an attorney. All you prove is that you could have steamed an envelope. In the United States, sending a copy /to/ your attorney would suffice to prove a date.) </QUOTE> That can quite easily prove a plagerism suit. Say, if I writing a story and I mail a copy of it (or a very detailed synopsis) off to Stephen King. He replies, telling me its good stuff, then six months later, he's got a novel out using my ideas, then I've got one hell of a plagerism suit. But barring that, it's just bullshit private conversation with no commercial value. An interesting side-dish. There's a book soon to be released which consists of a woman's correspondance (re: love letters) with a J.D. Salinger, I believe. Salinger is alive, and his letters are certainly the primary commercial value of the book, yet the woman will be the one making the royalaties. Seems like if those letters were implicitily copyrighted as you believe, then Salinger could easily sue her for his cuts of the royalties. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamey, <quote>So personal emails are posted here and read, so what? Is that so very different to you going to have dinner with friends from the company/companies you're friendly with and bitching about him, her, and their brother? Don't tell me you never do such things, don't tell me that. </quote> You are a silly foreign person ;) Of couorse I and everyone do that. But see, there's this likne you don't cross. And posting private emails is a line. Of course you ran a rumor site and proved you don't really care about such things as email privacy - only gossip and rumormongering, so I'm really not sure your opinion matters much on this topic? It's like asking a rapist if there's anything wrong with rape? I mean duh... (ducks) ;) George Broussard, 3D Realms |
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Oops- forgot - I am only talking about case law in the USA not an International court or other country. |
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Actually - I'm glad Andy posts email, it just shows me what kind of person he is. Oh yeah - and I'd never email him anything important or trivial, knowing now how he handles things... Consider it a public service announcement, ironically provided by the offender himself. So basically all you developers -- forget Andy, he's just gonna air out the bedsheets any 'ol time he feels like it. So much for this site...oh well, back to lurking.... Desiato |
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Alright, I finally got the time to read the whole story as presented on the realctf site. The lesson is that if you're going to expect something like financial support, you better make sure you have actual promises and not just encouragement. My guess is that these guys are gamers, not business minds, because if they were(business minds), the first thing they would have done is written up a contract, or worked under the assumption that it will be freeware unless a contract was written. It's just tough luck. That's life. As far as presenting Epic at fault(not here, on their site), well that's just plain crazy. How in the world is Epic at fault here? Paul Shrinkweb.com |
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<b>#146</b> "Desiato" wrote... <QUOTE>So much for this site...oh well, back to lurking.... </QUOTE> LOL! You have delurked twice in two days, I'm starting to this your delurker drive may need some new dylithium crystals or a new flux capacitor. Note: Kids, those needed items are from the future. Old Man Murray would understand. BTW: Here's an email I got a few weeks ago and thought I'd post it. ----- Original Message ----- From: president@whitehouse.gov Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Your Policies Dear Sgt. Hulka, Quit picking on me! Love, Slick Willy <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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C'mon...how many times does one need to insult Andy before they get their fill? What a nitpicky, rigorous, unforgiving bunch of hypocrites! GET OVER IT! Don't sit there with your axe and hack the frickin' door down like some Frankenstein-mob extra...Sheesh. We're all livin' and learnin' so try to avoid digging Andy's verbal graves for ONE STORY. I'm not sticking up for Andy nor am I speaking for him, I just think the continual slamfest is a bit unbecoming. |
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One story?!?!?!!?!?!? HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Andy your mom is the funniest. |
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<b>#126</b> "Chet" wrote... <QUOTE>Email is has no implied copyright - as someone else stated it is considered conversation. </QUOTE> <a href="http://www.mgrossmanlaw.com/articles/1997/copyright_in_cyberspace.htm">This article</a> (and many others I found when looking into this a few years back) reminds us that e-mail is a written work, and as such is copyrighted in the same manner as any traditional paper document: <quote>Have you ever sent an e-mail over the Internet? Maybe you have your own Web site. In both cases, federal copyright law already protects your ownership rights in the information that you've sent into cyberspace. (Yes, even e-mail gets copyright protection.)</quote> And later: <quote>Until things are clearer, the safe choice is to get the author's written permission before copying even part of their work. If you prefer not to do that, at least get yourself some good legal advice before you risk a costly copyright infringement lawsuit.</quote> It should be mentioned, however, that the nature of a work is considered when rulings of "fair use" are determined; as such it is probably much easier to present a fair use argument supporting the reprinting of e-mails. I have to admit that my knowledge of this topic is based on research I did about two years ago, and as such I cannot guarantee that it is still completely accurate. If you have info on a recent reversal of this, I'd appreciate a reference to it so I can get up to speed. Jeremy -- Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart</b> (#136): <QUOTE>I think this mouse guy has pretty much ruined his chances of getting much respect from Epic in the future... I mean, once you post a companies private emails and you shouldn't expect them to really ever want to talk to you again... </QUOTE> That's weak! Weren't ALL the e-mails answers to questions from the RT-Team? Imagine Andys next topic working this way: "I asked them alot of questions, but I won't reprint their answers here..." If you answer an e-mail and can't stand up to what you said, well then don't reply to e-mails anymore. Nothing in these mails was private! Nothing harmed Epic! The mails were directed to the REAL-team, so it's up to the REAL-Team to use'em. Might generally be better, to answer for permission first but I wouldn't have thought it was necessary in this case either. BTW: thanx to the real-team: I had lots of fun with REAL-CTF back in the Unreal-days. YOU kept the online spirit of Unreal alive till UT was out!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#137</b> "Warren Marshall" Am I to take this to mean that you consider trolls to be good debaters? And competent ones at that?! </QUOTE> Worthwhile debate here is uncommon. At least Trolls humourously liven things up. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#144</b> "George Broussard" <QUOTE>You are a silly foreign person ;) </QUOTE> Hell, I doubt I'm even <i>human</i>. <QUOTE>Of course I and everyone do that. But see, there's this line you don't cross. And posting private emails is a line. </QUOTE> Arbitary line, George. A random assignment. You were nasty about someone and then sent them the mail. At that point, it's their property, bought and paid for. <QUOTE>Of course you ran a rumor site and proved you don't really care about such things as email privacy - only gossip and rumormongering, so I'm really not sure your opinion matters much on this topic? It's like asking a rapist if there's anything wrong with rape? I mean duh... </QUOTE> Au contraire. I ran a satire and opinion site. Then people started emailing rumours in, so I went with that. I didn't <i>intend</i> or even know that rumours would rear their rumourish heads. But I DID publish them. Why? <b>Because the PC industry has a hidden, dark, incestuous heart of greed, arrogance, and incomptence and the journalists that report on it are corrupt and complicit lowly-paid WHORES who do little more than play free games ahead of time, write PR-fluff, and moan. </b> It takes a random, untrained member of the public to find these things out and point them out. Paid journalists have been lying and spinning the interactive entertainment bandwagon gravy train for entirely too long. That's the thing with independent webpage runners: love us or loathe us, you just can't <i>control</i> us. I thought many rapists knew there was something wrong with rape <i>but quite simply don't care</i>. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<QUOTE>But I DID publish them. Why? Because the PC industry has a hidden, dark, incestuous heart of greed, arrogance, and incomptence and the journalists that report on it are corrupt and complicit lowly-paid WHORES who do little more than play free games ahead of time, write PR-fluff, and moan.</QUOTE> I don't like the part about the PR-fluff. OK, there may be journalists that don't write objective reports, but PLEASE don't GENERALIZE !!! 1. I don't get games ahead of time (most of the time I receive them about 3 weeks after they're released - if not longer) 2. Write PR-fluff ? Guess you've never read any of my reviews. 3. Moan... Might be correct :p But ofcourse, I'm not one of those journalists that gets paid alot of money to write their stuff, and Fragland is not backed up in any way by anyone so that we would need to be careful with what we write. Speed Fragland.net |
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<b>#154</b>, flamethrower: <QUOTE> That's the thing with independent webpage runners: love us or loathe us, you just can't <I>control</I> us. </QUOTE> But give 3DR some credit -- at least they're <i>trying</i> to control us. |
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The Guys who Created Andy <quote>But give 3DR some credit -- at least they're trying to control us. </quote> When someone responds to outright lies or serious misinformation by trying to set the record straight or at least give their side that is hardly controlling. Since I can name 3 of your pieces that are outright lies (which from the collective that has created you I can only imagine were on purpose) and at least twice as many that were so poorly researched the basis of the thread was flawed... WHO IS TRYING TO CONTROL WHO? Informing is using the truth - controlling is using lies. Since PlanetCrap is mainly composed of threads started by the creators of Andy - Andy is Planet Crap and by using lies, they are the ones trying to control. But since it is all just a joke (see flame I learned), PlanetCrap is just trying to show you in an obvious fashion what happens all the time in the media - Andy's last post was just to point this out to the people who may have missed the obvious. PC is like a Robert Anton Wilson novel. |
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I dunno, I just find this interesting. Mouse - post 7: 2. Were you only developing Real Tournament with the intention of releasing it commercially? Yes, we were planning from the start for a commercial release. Then, unDuLe - post 8: We did not enter into the creation of RT EXPECTING a deal -- we knew the chances were slim. It seems, Andy, that sensationalism is more your key. Then, swarts - post 19: As most of you do not know, people who do work on mods, or "real games" do it for the sure enjoyment of doing it. ... why not work on something to try and achieve the ultimate goal... which to us would be to WORK ON GAMES FULL TIME! It would seem, oddly enough, that there is an inconsistancy here. One minute, the mod was always going to be commercial, and that the reason it was made was to get into the gaming business. Then, it's said that it was only made for the joy of making it, and that no deal was ever expected. Just seems odd to me. :) <b>Uncle</b> <i>I should have written this topic</i> <b>Jeet</b><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#155</b> "Speed" <QUOTE> I don't like the part about the PR-fluff. OK, there may be journalists that don't write objective reports, but PLEASE don't GENERALIZE !!! 1. I don't get games ahead of time (most of the time I receive them about 3 weeks after they're released - if not longer) 2. Write PR-fluff ? Guess you've never read any of my reviews. 3. Moan... Might be correct :p But ofcourse, I'm not one of those journalists that gets paid alot of money to write their stuff, and Fragland is not backed up in any way by anyone so that we would need to be careful with what we write. Speed Fragland.net </QUOTE> Sorry, Speed, but do you consider yourself a <b>reviewer/critic</b> or a <b>journalist</b>? From what I can see of your work, you're a PR fluffer. Example news: <QUOTE> Sunday News Counterstrike [3:04] - Speed View Comments (0) Blame me for not having much inspiration for topics, but Counterstrike beta 7.0 has been released, and we've got local copies of both upgrade and full version available for you. Also on another note : I received absolutely 0 (!!!) emails yesterday. This is a record ! I can't remember a day where I didn't receive a mail... Is this positive or negative ? I wonder... Interviews : <QUOTE>Shrinkweb posted a short Q&A with Eric Biessman on several things. Stormtroopers spoke with Ion Storm's Dallas Audio Director Will Nevins PC.IGN interviewed Monolith's Craig Hubbard about No One Lives Forever</QUOTE> Previews : <QUOTE>Gamespot took a look at Delta Force Land Warrior Gamesdomain previewed Combat Flight Sim 2 Gamespy checked out Pool of Radiance Actiontrip went out to see wether Crimson skies will be worth buying when it gets released</QUOTE> Shots : <QUOTE>DailyRadar got some gameplay screens of Hitman:Codename 47 Evil Avatar got his evil hands on some new Sanity shots Gamespot got some screens of 4x4 Evolution</QUOTE> </QUOTE> I searched around for something... investigative, or any challenging commentary, in the most obvious section, "Articles", were the following: <QUOTE>25/08/00 Play Quake 2 Multiplayer for FREE ! 16/08/00 Interview with the Conspiracy Dude 16/08/00 Beta Testing Tips 08/08/00 OCC 5 Lan-Party Overview (20 pages) 31/07/00 OCC 5 Lan-Party Preview 28/07/00 Raven : The true story of a fictive person part 2 12/07/00 Raven : The true story of a fictive person part 1 12/07/00 Megafestatie Picturama 10/07/00 Multiplayer Madness Picturama 25/04/00 Violence in Games </QUOTE> Aside from the previews, overviews, interviews, testing tips, how to play the demo version of Quake 2 on retail version servers, and photographs of geeks, there's entirely ONE journalistic article up on Fragland that I could find: a tepid pro-industry rant against the nay-sayers who show violent games affect children. It's preaching to the converted, like saying "fish and chips taste great" inside a fish and chip shop. It doesn't challenge the industry, developers, publishers, or mod makers, to clean up their acts, it doesn't present a rounded arguament, it doesn't use weighty statistics or example to give authoriative weight to your views. The entire article can be paraphrased 'I fink violent games are OK so they are OK by me'. It's a statement recording your views which, clearly, you haven't thoroughly thought out but wrote from a 'I like playing games, violent games, how can I convince other people to let me keep playing them' perspective. Don't be offended. PR fluff is something game fans lap up with glee, it is necessary, keeps the traffic up, and developers/publishers don't get pissed off at you. It <i>doesn't</i> make you corrupt either. By giving poor reviews to the things dislike you could avoid that (you give Deus Ex a lukewarm review, Mortyr an vicious critique, a detestuous review of Messiah) and giving good reviews to games that are not id-style deathmatch shooters (Vampire, Dark Reign II) you can demonstrate some independence of thought, but that alone does not make you a <i>journalist</i>. Not in Flamethrower's book. For most of the time Fragland is PR fluff, but it IS quite nicely presented. :) If anyone else wants to claim they're a games journalist instead of a PR fluffer, I'm willing to review YOUR work too. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>It would seem, oddly enough, that there is an inconsistancy here. One minute, the mod was always going to be commercial, and that the reason it was made was to get into the gaming business. Then, it's said that it was only made for the joy of making it, and that no deal was ever expected. Just seems odd to me. :) </quote> No, I don't think there is an inconsistency. We started Real Tournament in the hopes of making it a commercial product, it was the natural outgrowth the team's efforts on Real CTF. Knowing our chances were slim doesn't imply anything other than that, i.e. we were doing it for other reasons. Aiming at a retail product from theget-go, as opposed to working with freeware in mind, constituted only minimal changes in the development process. Namely we kept out the public eye and we tried to tie it more completely to the "Ut World" -- something we would likely not have done if it were 'a mod' from the start. As a little last note -- I still don't see RT as a mod, really, it's an add-on in the truest sense. It'll just be free 8) |
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http://www.pcgr.com Read my spotlights and some of my reviews <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>andy</b> (#Main Post): <QUOTE>You can imagine the trollish rantings on message boards everywhere...</QUOTE> Tell me about it <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote> PC is like a Robert Anton Wilson novel. </quote> That's some high praise, I'd think -- not entirely merited, but high praise. There <i>is</i> a touch of Hagbard in here though . . . |
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Chet, When someone responds to outright lies or serious misinformation by trying to set the record straight or at least give their side that is hardly controlling. Since I can name 3 of your pieces that are outright lies </quote> Hmmm...good point about some of Andy's posts. You know the tabloids get sued fairly often and the stars win, because the tabloids posted things that were just rumors, untrue, or poorly researched. Such as one magazine stating that Arnold's Schwarzennegger's heart surgery was serious and that the star could be in trouble. Arnold showed that he was in terriffic health and that the piece could likely lower his marketability if people thought he was in bad medical shape. He won millions and donated it to charity. George Broussard, 3D Realms |
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re: #157 I don't get why people get so worked up by Andy's (or better his #0 Posts) shortcomings*. The discussion is most of the time more interesting than the actual #0 Post. Some one has to be "Post Zero"! *I mean when he posts a poorly researched/thought-out article. |
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<b>#161</b> "BloodKnight" <QUOTE>http://www.pcgr.com </QUOTE> It's a review site. All I found were reviews. Reviews and previews and links to press-releases IS PR fluff. If you have some journalisim in there, let me know... link it directly!! <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower (#159) : Going from your statements, I would say that I'm more of a reviewer/critic than a journalist indeed. Depends on how you look at it. Looking through your eyes, 90% of all the magazines out there are made by reviewers/critics, instead of by journalists. Someone covering news, is a critic or a reviewer, but not a journalist. I thought journalists were people that report news. Looking at what you are saying, the only thing a journalist does, is write critical columns that don't agree with the main industry. I thought making reviews/previews and interviewing people was a part of the job of a journalist, but according to what you're saying, it is not. About the news on fragland : We have 1 overview, where we include most previews, interviews and shots, and for interesting articles, we make seperate posts (aswell for new releases/patches ofcourse) I don't see why we would make a seperate post for each interview/preview done on some site, when there's nothing new or interesting in it. Btw : Bluesnews, Shugashack, VoodooExtreme, Telefragged,... etc. are all sites run by non-journalists according to you. Let's just be glad there's freedom of speech and opinion, otherwise it would be a sad world, with everyone having to have the same opinion... Speed, Fragland.net |
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Anakin2001 #131 spewed: "OHHHHH GOOD, CLIFFY B THE FAGOT IS ON... Hey Cliffy B. are you mad because IDSoft didn't hire you so you went out and copied all their games and put a million nali healing plants in them all?" Anakin, What the hell is your problem? Have you actually played Unreal and UT as opposed to any of the Quake games? While Quake was groundbreaking in it's day, Unreal & UT have both raised the bar tremendously. I do like Q3A, but it can't hold a candle to UT. What does it matter if Cliffy B (name used with permission) ;) used some ideas from ID's games? Name me one game out on the market today that is COMPLETELY original. You can't, can you? Because there are none, you backwoods, dimwitted troll. Go crawl back under the rock that you came from and hump your brother again. Cliff and co. - Don't listen to this fuckwit. You guys do great work. After Doom, I HATED fps games until I played UT. I have since went back and learned what a jewel Unreal is. I do like the "other" games out there (Q3A, SOF, ect, ad nauseum), but it was you guys who brought me around. So take a frigging bow already! =) [@~]MizuGami ------------ Those that would shed blood with me, I shall call them 'brother'. |
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<b>[@~]MizuGami</b> (#168): <QUOTE>Name me one game out on the market today that is COMPLETELY original. </QUOTE> If Deus Ex doesn't count (I am taking a FPS genre) as an orginal, I don't know what is <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#167</b> "Speed" wrote... <QUOTE>Btw : Bluesnews, Shugashack, VoodooExtreme, Telefragged,... etc. are all sites run by non-journalists according to you.</QUOTE> Now you're getting it. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#169</b> "BloodKnight" wrote... <QUOTE>If Deus Ex doesn't count (I am taking a FPS genre) as an orginal, I don't know what is </QUOTE> Deus Ex took a lot of elements from Thief, System Shock, and Outcast (mostly Outcast) and rolled it all together. Thief, System Shock, and Outcast of course got most of their core gameplay from other games as well. It's evolution. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>G-Man</b> (#171): <QUOTE>Deus Ex took a lot of elements from Thief, System Shock, and Outcast (mostly Outcast) and rolled it all together. </QUOTE> It seems more of the SS2, Thief, and Quake. The idea/theme of the game is very unique, combining future technology with modern technology together <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#167</b> "Speed" <QUOTE>Going from your statements, I would say that I'm more of a reviewer/critic than a journalist indeed. Depends on how you look at it. Looking through your eyes, 90% of all the magazines out there are made by reviewers/critics, instead of by journalists. Someone covering news, is a critic or a reviewer, but not a journalist. I thought journalists were people that report news. </QUOTE> I think journalists are people who QUESTION the news before posting it. That's just my opinion. <QUOTE>Looking at what you are saying, the only thing a journalist does, is write critical columns that don't agree with the main industry. </QUOTE> Critical doesn't have to be negative, no is it <i>opinion</i> columns. They don't <i>have</i> to disagree with industry practise, but they should report it and the consequences of it. For example, do trying to take exceptionally violent games out of controlled-sales environments into uncontrolled (but 'advised') environment do nothing but antagonise politicians, and make censorship laws more likely? Or is it vital for Canadian free speech to fight this case? There are lots of other elements to the gaming industry, the 'exclusives' deals with magazines, the tragic circumstances/contracts which publisher often push on developers, there are a thousand STORIES out there. Journaists surely look into these. You're a product site. Be proud! There's nothing wrong with that... people need the latest information, a reasoned review. If being a journalist is being that and being honest too, then yes, you're a journalist. It's just I think can't help thinking such forums should be platforms for advocating innovation and change in the industry. <QUOTE>Btw : Bluesnews, Shugashack, VoodooExtreme, Telefragged,... etc. are all sites run by non-journalists according to you. </QUOTE> There're edited links sites: sieved daily portals. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Flamethrower : <QUOTE>I think journalists are people who QUESTION the news before posting it. That's just my opinion</QUOTE> 1. Posting that there's a new preview of some game around has nothing much about it that can be questioned 2. Same with screenshots and interviews (unless there's something actually interesting in there - as I said before - but 90% of all interviews have the same questions so that's why we put them in an overview) Questioning is indeed something a journalist does, and I do that if there's some interesting newsbit (I post them in seperate posts btw). Unfortunately most stuff that gets in the news is not interesting enough to put a seperate piece on. We at fragland are busy at the moment to re-vamp our site so that we can put more comments on newsposts ourselves, without making the headlines harder to read/find (you'll be able to see the result in a few months). It's not because we don't have seperate articles about stuff that we don't question the news. You can't see that if you're not a regular visitor (or you would have to stumble on an interesting news bit, which we haven't seen in a while). As an example of this, I can tell you that when we heard that the European Community was going to donate several millions to 4 unknown developers to create some "incredible" new game, that got a major post in our news, accompanied with severe criticism from me. However, I didn't make a seperate "article" about it. Currently our "articles"-section is more a column/story-section, that could indeed have a better name :p (btw : most articles aren't mine. I can't do everything myself because of lack of time, but I intend to spend more time on them :p) <QUOTE>Critical doesn't have to be negative, no is it opinion columns. They don't have to disagree with industry practise, but they should report it and the consequences of it. For example, do trying to take exceptionally violent games out of controlled-sales environments into uncontrolled (but 'advised') environment do nothing but antagonise politicians, and make censorship laws more likely? Or is it vital for Canadian free speech to fight this case? There are lots of other elements to the gaming industry, the 'exclusives' deals with magazines, the tragic circumstances/contracts which publisher often push on developers, there are a thousand STORIES out there. Journaists surely look into these.</QUOTE> I'm against censorship if it's put on someone. I'm 100% in favor of self-censorship. You're completely correct about the fact that there are 1000 stories out there (especially with the "exclusive deals"-thingie :p) but the problem is that most of the time, the people that want to write an article about that, don't have all the info or time to do so, and those that have, don't WANT to write about it (which is a pitty) <QUOTE>You're a product site. Be proud! There's nothing wrong with that... people need the latest information, a reasoned review. If being a journalist is being that and being honest too, then yes, you're a journalist. It's just I think can't help thinking such forums should be platforms for advocating innovation and change in the industry</QUOTE> I thought of fragland more as a news/community site (or at least we're growing into that :p) About our reviews : We don't write reviews that are a specific amount of signs like most magazines, and that's with a reason : A gamer wants to know wether a game is good or bad, and why. We don't write reviews that are pages long (most sites/magazines do it to get more bannerviews I guess) just because people get bored. We get right to the basis and let people know wether we liked it or not. I think that except for Oldmanmurray (Hi Chet !) not too many sites do the same like us. One last thing : Fragland has never been and never will be bound to someone saying what we can and cannot write. Everything we have comes from ourselves or people that love us (including our own servers) and we don't earn 1 dime on it (everything we might earn from bannerviews goes right back into fragland) so I hope no-one will ever assume that our work is being censored by anyone. Speed Fragland.net |
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This is one slow day, I find myself refreshing the PC page for a new quote. I also just realized there is this green stuff from nature on my socks...I ACTUALLY WENT OUTSIDE?! <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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