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The Dancing Bears Of Hypocrisy
August 25th 2000, 04:15 CEST by andy Yay, it's another 3D Realms thread! Yes folks, I've spent weeks trawling through every gaming web site, message board and newsgroup, hunting for any info or quotes I could use to formulate another of my spiteful, malicious and entirely biased rants against those poor 3DR folks, and finally I've found it! Rejoice! (Or maybe, just maybe, I followed a link from Blue's News and noticed something that I thought would be worth commenting on. And it just happens to be about 3DR. But shhh, don't tell George and Scott.) Duke Nukem : Endangered Species is a hunting game in which everyone's favourite five-years-out-of-date action hero sets off on a mission around the world to kill some creatures. Doesn't sound that great to me, and probably not to you either, but apparently this is a "mass-market design game" so I guess we're not exactly the target audience. Stomped recently interviewed several members of the DN:ES development team, Action Forms. The interview includes a few interesting tidbits that are, let's say, not very re-assuring about the level of quality to be expected, but there's one thing in particular that I think should be brought to people's attention... Regular readers of the 'Crap will have seen both George Broussard and Scott Miller commenting many times on how unscrupulous some publishers can be, and how they hold developers to strict deadlines with little care for getting the game finished to a decent standard. Well, in that case, it should be good news that Endangered Species is being published by the Gathering Of Developers subsidiary On Deck Interactive... shouldn't it? After all, these guys are supposed to be working on the side of developers -- no more bullying, no more oppressive deadlines, no more rushed games. Remember? Well, believe it or not, Endangered Species has a SIX MONTH development time. SIX MONTHS! That's less than half a year! ;-) So maybe On Deck Interactive are another of these evil publishers? Is that what this is about? Nope. See, apparently the six month limit has been imposed by none other than 3D Realms. Just a tad hypocritical of them, wouldn't you say? The biz folks at 3DR make a big deal of saying how much they disapprove of publishers rushing projects, but when it's 3DR calling the shots on another team, they're just as bad themselves. In fact, with a six month deadline imposed to hit the Christmas market, you could say they're actually worse...
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<b>#47</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <QUOTE><B><A href="spy-internal:Load/140#15">#15</A></B> "Ian" wrote... <quote>I've always wondered what it's like to be a corporate shill. Now I can just ask selected employees of 3DR. </quote> I do believe that title is restricted to only be used when describing. I would thank you kindly from refraining to use it in other contexts.</QUOTE> grrr stoopid tags... I do believe that title "corporate shill" is restricted to only be used when describing Warren. I would thank you kindly from refraining to use it in other contexts.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#40</b> "Mankovic" wrote... <QUOTE>George Broussard wrote: <quote>Bear in mind that us die hards are maybe 10-15% of the market. We don't cause games to sell 1 million copies. We cause them to sell 100K copies.</quote> That 10-15% of the market you mentioned also contains those die hards that run a good portion of all the fanboy sites out there, which creates multiple <I>free</I> avenues of advertising for games. The most die hard are usually the most vocal when it comes to scrutinizing said games, so I fail to see why it's improper to voice concern over making cookie cutter games with just a little more flash. I'm convinced that the 10-15% you mentioned was partly responsible for Half Life selling over 1 million copies in the big scheme of things. </quote> What sold Halflife was it's great interface. A lot of my friends are not or only barely computer literate. I watched them play a number of games. Set them up with q3a. They hated it - the UI was archaic and difficult to use and the gameplay steps were huge. They played Unreal and they liked the UI better but it was so slow to load up and the bots moved unnaturally and they found it hard to follow them. Then I let them at Halflife and they loved it. The learning curve was smotth, the UI was mostly intuitive. They could spend a lot of time getting used to controls in the early exploring stage etc. They loved the first walkthrough bit because they could watch things talk and annoy people. (One guy spent 10 minutes or so walking up to characters and watching them get annoyed :P). Halflife is great because it gradually immerses you in the world, has intuitive UI, requires no manual and had much eye candy at the *begining* of the game. (Where first impressions are gathered). Neither UT or q3a can compare with that which is prolly why they never got a foot hold in less hardcore. <quote>I'm convinced that the reason cookie cutter games are so prominent right now is because 3D is now so commonplace, and any new game requires some kind of special -hook- either in the form of eye candy or specialized gameplay which makes newer engine technology a necessity. </quote> doubtful. Most of the gameplay is based on old gameplay styles. I keep waiting for the pacman and spaceinvader gameplay to come back as all the other basic styles have re-imerged in new world. <quote>So a developer is either forced to stay on the cutting edge by developing a new engine (which is costly), or they liscense an existing one and produce something with a great storyline and immersive gameplay in a -short- period of time.....not something that caters to the lowest attention span.</QUOTE> If the industry was as established as other industries (ie film) then this would be possible. Unfortunately (or fortunately) it is not. There are no standard tools, no standard repetoirs of communication and people have a long lead in time for each project. Compare that to a film guy who can move daily from set to set using standard equipement with minimal direction and still be damn good. No way is that possible with software engineering (at least not yet). Same to a degree with art. It would be possible for highly motivated individuals to do move project to project freely (within limits) however the games industry doesn't pay enough I would guess. For recompense many of the artists I suspect get satisfaction from seeing their work mixed in end game and working with designers to create a good game. <QUOTE>I take offense at your notion that complexity is the main reason that games such as SS2 and Thief sold poorly. I'm convinced that the main reason they sold poorly is due to over saturation of the market coupled with ungodly high prices. </QUOTE> your free to your opinion - but you are wrong. The majority of humanity is lazy. They don't want to learn en route to entertainement. They prefer to sit back with mindless gameplay. I know plenty of people who play the shooter games on playstation where people pop up and you have to shoot them before they shoot you. This repeats for near on twenty hours with slightly different locales and every now and again a special bad guy (like helicopter) pops up. Brain dead game play and much more popular with average non-hardcore player. I haven't seen these hunter games but my guess is that they have similar gameplay ? <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#49</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote... <QUOTE>Most of the gameplay is based on old gameplay styles. I keep waiting for the pacman and spaceinvader gameplay to come back as all the other basic styles have re-imerged in new world. </QUOTE> I think an argument could be made that deathmatch games are in their essence just an extension of the old Pacman gameplay model. Race around a maze picking up powerups while avoiding/killing the enemies within. The only difference is that the end goal is picking up all the powerups rather than killing all the enemies (since they respawn ad infinitum). Hrm actually sounds like a good idea for a mod. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#42</b> "Thorbar" wrote... <QUOTE>On a side note out of my clan of 8, 2 have bought dues ex and 4 have downloaded it. All say its a great game. </QUOTE> Wow. I may be forced to re-evaluate how much a problem game piracy really is. This one sentence has been more effective than pages of your rhetoric, developers. I really hope you were talking about the demo Thorbar. -Whisp |
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bah! Bruce is right... Hell, 3DR might as well of had Duke saying "Use the Force" or screaming "Adriannnnn..." . However, i don't understand why everyone's up in arms about this...i mean...COME ON, IT'S A HUNTING GAME!! WHO CARES?!? Unless your waiting on the edge of your seat for its release, i don't see whether it matters if it comes out in 6 months or 6 years. what's next, Duke Fishing?!? Duke Pong?? blech. Duke 3D was a great game, DNF will probably be a great game, but the rest is simply filler. ^M^ |
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RahvinTaka wrote:<quote>The majority of humanity is lazy. They don't want to learn en route to entertainement.</quote> So if I understand you correctly, maybe you can explain the reason why Quake2 did so well considering all of the configs, server settings, console settings...ect that a player had to take considerable time to learn to properly use? I'm willing to bet my last beer that the hardcore portion of the Quake community was largely responsible for Quake2's success, as well as contributing to the initial success of Half Life out of the gates, seeing as how a good portion of the Mod community switched over when Half Life came out. Configuring these games for online play wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination, especially for the server admins of the world. So I think your assertion that gamers; et al "humanity', as a majority are lazy is dead wrong considering the thousands of servers still in existence for both games, and the number of players still fraggin away on them. |
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<b>#53</b> "Mankovic" wrote... <QUOTE>RahvinTaka wrote: <quote>The majority of humanity is lazy. They don't want to learn en route to entertainement.</quote> So if I understand you correctly, maybe you can explain the reason why Quake2 did so well considering all of the configs, server settings, console settings...ect that a player had to take considerable time to learn to properly use? I'm willing to bet my last beer that the hardcore portion of the Quake community was largely responsible for Quake2's success, as well as contributing to the initial success of Half Life out of the gates, seeing as how a good portion of the Mod community switched over when Half Life came out. Configuring these games for online play wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination, especially for the server admins of the world. So I think your assertion that gamers; et al "humanity', as a majority are lazy is dead wrong considering the thousands of servers still in existence for both games, and the number of players still fraggin away on them. </QUOTE> hmmm you mean hard-core gamers are still playing hard to configure games with history. *shock* *horror*. Gee that really destroys my whole argument. BTW I don't think you know the meaning of "et al". And where did I ever suggest that humanity was only made up of gamers .. seems like a week assertion to me ... hmmm whats that phrase something to do with ... errr .. scare crows .. naah ... straw man ! ... yes thats it<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Yo, #53. <quote>So if I understand you correctly, maybe you can explain the reason why Quake2 did so well considering all of the configs, server settings, console settings...ect that a player had to take considerable time to learn to properly use?</quote> Easy. Check out the default controls for Quake 2. Arrow keys: move CTRL: shoot 1-10: change weapons And that's all you really need to know to start playing. Sure, you can gradually start to use the more complex stuff, like mouselook and sidestrafe and multiplayer options, but the key words there are gradual and optional. Compared to a game like Deus Ex, with its more demanding learning curve (you need to know how to crouch, sneak, set explosives, manage skill points, etc.) and the simplicity theory only gains more evidence in its favor. How many non-hardcore people bought Quake 2 and used all those complicated options first thing? Not many, I would guess. |
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mortis - "what's next, Duke Fishing?!?" Mmm .. now that gives me an idea. How about a "Dopefishing" game, starring everyone's favourite character from the Commander Keen games? ;) I know I'd pay good money for that... |
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Duke in hunting game... What´s next: Duke in a fishing game? Maybe they should rename Duke Nukem taking forever into: "Splatter for the elderly" or "How to lift a rocket launcher when you are 50+" They need to be careful that Duke doesn´t turn on them: "Damn, I´ll make you pay for my lumbago!" Sorry for the flamebait ... but there are so many babes to safe and Duke is out for hunting. Gee ... |
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In response to Mankovic's post #53: Quake II did so well because it is a very well known franchise. Furthermore, the server admins are <b>not</b> the casual gamer. They are most definately the hardcore gamer. The casual gamers that bought Quake II never played online (which is the majority of the people who bought Q2). Instead, they were content with playing a few single player levels. I think your opinion on this matter is skewed because you interact with the hardcore gamers subset. This would include the mod makers, the mod players, and the online gamers. |
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Gestalt- DopeFishing!! Now THERE'S an idea whos time has come...i can just see tossing back the lunkers, crates from various FPS games, and Nali healing fruit in a mad search of the BIG game...the DopeFish!!! it could be like the Hunting game, except you could drive around a little john boat packing a wide variety of bait to attract the Dopefish...i think you're ON to something here! ;) ^M^ "Hail to the Stink-Bait, Baby!" |
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I think another reason why many comp games dont sell well is their lack of advertising. I have seen actual ads for Rollercoaster Tycoon on TV, even my g/f knows what that game is, in fact she forced me to buy it... :-( Also, George's point of waiting to sell a game now would be the perfect time, and hes right. Look at most computer gamers right now and were bored out of our fucking minds...only the diehards are playing Diablo2...and we want something new to try/play. Good thing I have Chrono Cross, and this *cough* demo of Parasite Eve 2... ;-) |
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If you've ever worked at a sales desk, or known someone who has it's quite scary what your average person will buy. Name means everything, and it's one of the reason games like Quake, Myst and Half-Life keep walking off the shelves. Everyone has heard of Quake and Myst and more recently Half-Life and because of this they're what people go for. Next time you're in your local EB just watch for a minute and observe your average non-hardcore customer. They'll walk into the shop, and scan the array of shiny boxes if they see something they recognise by name, they'll pick it in favour of something newer 90% of the time. It's quite scary really. |
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<b>#35</b> "George Broussard" wrote... <QUOTE>They are too complex for the average gamer. That's it. No complex reasons. No lack of marketing (a favorite culprit). Just too complex with all their powers, complicated inventory systems, and depth of plot/missions. The learning curve is too steep. </QUOTE> I'm in agreement with George 100% here. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#56</b> "Gestalt" wrote... <QUOTE>mortis - "what's next, Duke Fishing?!?" </QUOTE> Nope, what George and the girls have in the pipeline is as follows. I got this info from a trusted source within their secret lab. It's all legit. Duke: Origins (N64) Duke Fashion Designer for Girls (Yep!) Krazy Duke Karts Learn Your ABC's with Duke It seems they are branching way out with their character. I can't imagine a fashion designer game though, perhaps Duke jumped the fence? <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I was sent an email that I would enjoy this post and I must say I am impressed. Way to go Andy. Can I give you the lead for your next piece. George Broussard kills babies and forces the elderly to wash his car. You can just base the thread on that quote. I will post it here again so you can say you read it in two places. George Broussard kills babies and forces the elderly to wash his car. And yes, I know Flamey, I just don't get it. Isn't it time Andy tried to redirect this thread with some off topic posting? |
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<b>#64</b> "Chet" wrote... <QUOTE>George Broussard kills babies and forces the elderly to wash his car. </QUOTE> You're wrong Chet! George Broussard EATS babies, pees in the street and NEVER wipes.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>I've always told publishers that they are clueless if they think time of year matters. <b>It certainly doesn't matter for good games</b>. And if nothing else you WANT to be alone ... I know we would skip Xmas and choose to polish a couple months if it meant shipping anytime in December. -- George Broussard 5 August 2000</quote> I've highlighted the important bit, and I think George is trying to say that this Duke Nukem game IS NOT a good game, merely an attempt to capitalize on stupid Wal-Mart game shoppers who thought both Duke and Deer Hunter were cool. I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#66</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "Baytor" wrote: <QUOTE>I've highlighted the important bit, and I think George is trying to say that this Duke Nukem game IS NOT a good game, merely an attempt to capitalize on stupid Wal-Mart game shoppers who thought both Duke and Deer Hunter were cool. </QUOTE> Add smiley face :) I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#35</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "George Broussard" wrote: <QUOTE>So then why has Deus Ex only sold 40K copies, while even Vampire has hit the 70K mark? I doubt Deus Ex will break 150K (if lucky) in US sales. </QUOTE> Okay, George, I have to ask. I've been following the Top 20 thing at Evil Avatar for the past several weeks, and Deus Ex has been consistently there (either #12 or #18, I don't remember which). Are you telling me that a game that stays in the Top 20 for a month is only selling 40K? If so, that's pretty mad--the game industry, not you :) I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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RahvinTaka wrote orginally:<quote>The <b>majority of humanity</b> is lazy. They don't want to learn en route to <b>entertainement</b>. They prefer to sit back with <b>mindless gameplay</b>.</quote> of which I quoted in context:<quote>The majority of humanity is lazy.</quote> to which he responded:<quote>And where did I ever suggest that humanity was only made up of gamers .. seems like a week assertion to me ...</quote> Hmmm.....you said it, not me...:P Kevin wrote:<quote>I think your opinion on this matter is skewed because you interact with the hardcore gamers subset.</quote> Possibly, because I do recall how everyone wretched at the idea of deerhunter getting its own *planet* site....:-) Forensic wrote:<quote>...the simplicity theory only gains more evidence in its favor.</quote> I guess it's inevitable that games will continue to be dumbed down to meet the demands of a lazy humanity. Thank god for people like Jeff K....:P |
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Duke Hunting... that's a rather odd concept. I see the economical motivation there, but really... I would think you wouldn't want to completely milk the character dry before the real game is even released. By previous posts it seems that 3DR is not imposing a strict limit on the games' release cycle, so that isn't an issue. As to why Deus Ex isn't selling... it's hard to say. I personally <i>love</i> this game, unlike Diablo2 (which has thus far been a rather uninspired clickfest with an occasional snippet of nice CG animation.) People have said that the complexity scares people off... I tend to think it's something else. The established RPG genre manages quite well, despite the relative complexity of games like Baldur's Gate; so it is obvious that you can't blame the games' failures entirely on their level of complexity. All of those games mentioned (Thief, System Shock, Deus Ex) fail to fall into any successful genre; and as such they have no automatic fan base. The hardcore FPS junkies won't buy them because they lack direct "skill" based competition, and the hardcore RPG players won't go for the first-person perspective and lack of pointy ears. I think that while these games may "fail" to <i>some</i> extent due to their complexity, their poor sales can also be traced back to what we tend to praise them so heavily for: their originality. Jeremy |
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I'm not sure why Thief keeps getting lumped in with System Shock. Everything I read indicates that it sold quite decently, hence a sequel and now Ion Storn Austin beginning work on a third game. Thief can also be plopped into a category, albeit one that it largely created itself -- first person sneaker. It's much easier to summarize what it is than, say, Deus Ex or System Shock. As to the Duke hunting game, 3D Realms has been mliking Duke since Day 1. This ain't exactly a shocker. :) And I really don't think all of the console games, add-on packs and whatnot will hurt Duke Nukem Forever. When that one comes out, people will see it for what it is, the direct sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. |
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<quote>Releasing at Xmas is stupid. You heard it here first and you will learn and see over time that it's silly beyond marketing belief. </quote> Yeah, but you have a huge franchise and are a reputable developer. If you have a new franchise from an unknown entity, wouldn't you stand a better chance of benefitting from increased foot traffic? If there's not other title driving people to the story in July, how are people going to buy your game? Would Deus Ex have done better at Christmas? Would KISS Psycho Circus? Who knows? (By the way, I agree Deus Ex, like other Looking Glass games, is overly complex for newbies, but what about Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear? Big sellers, big complexity.) <quote>Duke 3D was unknown and went out in May. Starcraft March. Diablo 2, June. Shall I continue? </quote> What games NOT from Blizzard did well releasing in the summer? What games that aren't from a major franchise (like The Sims)? If Vampire didn't do great (it is a license), what does that say about its timing? Might it have done better at Christmas? Might it STILL be selling at Christmas? OK, I'll name one off-season game that wasn't a franchise name or widely anticipated: RollerCoaster Tycoon. But they did TV ads. If you go back, Blizzard launched WarCraft II at Christmas of 95 (and WarCraft was also a Christmas title a year or so earlier), and its success established them as a top developer. Its success also allowed Diablo to miss Christmas (by a few weeks). Because of those two enormous successes, StarCraft could release anytime, as could Diablo II. It's easy to be puzzled about companies following Christmas release schedules when you're a top-dog, but I suspect Blizzard is the exception, rather than the rule. And perhaps 3D Realms is as well. For others, Christmas may be their only chance to get casual gamers to even LOOK at their game... Oh, and Shakespeare in Love grossed over $100 million domestically (probably three times that internationally), and probably cost about $30-$60 million to make. Jurassic Park grosses about $300 million domestically (about $500 worldwide) but its costs were probably over $200 million (with marketing). With greater risks come the potential for greater rewards, but I doubt Miramax (and their bosses at Disney) were upset with the revenue and profits generated by Shakespeare in Love. And therein lies a problem with the blockbuster mentality. If all you're doing is swinging for the fences, you're going to fail. Spectacularly. But a couple of walks and a single will produce the same run... (ooh, sports metaphor, sorry to our friends overseas for whom baseball isn't a religion). Of course you could argue "Duke Hunting" games are the walks and singles, in terms of producing steady revenue for a company... and those singles, put together, could turn into a "big inning" or blockbuster. You never know. |
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they don't fail 'cause they're too damn complex...they fail because they're only accepted by niche markets. Also, i think user extensability (level editors, skin editing tools, source-code release) plays a HUGE factor in figuring why some games make it and others don't. MODS, TC's, User-made levels...all these things help a game to sell. case in point, Halflife. I heard that there's going to be YET ANOTHER version of the HL/OPFOR/TFC sold soon (Halflife Platinum Edition) including many user-made MODS. |
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I've always felt that there was something that was wrong with me, and now I know, I'm a girl trapped in mans body. I'm coming out of the closet! Fashion Designer here I come! Tee hee hee |
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<b>#71</b> "Creole Ned" wrote... <QUOTE>I'm not sure why Thief keeps getting lumped in with System Shock. Everything I read indicates that it sold quite decently, hence a sequel and now Ion Storn Austin beginning work on a third game. </QUOTE> System Shock of course also had a sequel, and I'd be surprised if Deus Ex doesn't end up with one as well. These games didn't exactly bomb, but their sales were considered by many as "failures" since they never achieved the hit status of many "lesser" games. Even though I believe all three have (or will have, in the case of Deus Ex) turned profits, people (myself included) tend to feel that they are real underachievers in the market. Jeremy -- Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<i>#include "disclaimer.h"</i> ^mortis^ (#73): <i>Also, i think user extensability (level editors, skin editing tools, source-code release) plays a HUGE factor in figuring why some games make it and others don't.</i> hmm. yeah, i can see that. Rollercoaster Tycoon, Deer Hunter, and Myst/Riven have huge mod bases, and are easily extensible, which explains why they keep selling. no? gee. isn't that interesting. (arguable that RCT has mod capability as part of the game, which explains its replayability, but that's another post.) games continue to sell for two main reasons, as far as i'm concerned: 1. company support (marketing, sales, etc) 2. quality Half-Life is a good case in point for the former. sure, the mods are great, but here's a tip: if the company doesn't keep puttin the game on the shelf, it don't make a damned difference how many ppl make mods for it. the reason H-L keeps selling well, frankly, is because you can BUY it. easily. and just about anywhere. mods make the game more attractive to potential customers--MAYBE (lots of folks don't like to play multi or online, after all)--but if you can't purchase the game, that doesn't matter too much. [and related to this: SS2 was a bit complicated, but no more so than Rainbow Six. and, imho, SS2's a better, more fun game. why didn't it do as well? imho again, because EA didn't see fit to keep it on the shelves, or advertise it, or re-issue it. the only ppl that really knew about it were/are the hardcore. so look at SS2's sales, and tell me again how big the hardcore audience is. and tell me again why companies pander to the mass market. thanks.] for the 2nd point, word of mouth generates sales. so do reviews, and other types of press. but in a sense, those, too, are marketing--just not company-originated marketing. (i'm using "marketing" in the sense of "making the potential customer familiar with the name". and yes, that means Derek's doing marketing on Usenet every time he posts and puts a BC3K (or whatever the game of the week is) reference in his sig. i'll agree that that ain't GREAT marketing, but if you know and remember the name, it's worked.) so. mods are part of the equation, but not as big a factor as some seem to think. they're like bonus sales, more than anything else. and that's all i have to say about that. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#51</b> "Whisp" wrote... <QUOTE>Wow. I may be forced to re-evaluate how much a problem game piracy really is. This one sentence has been more effective than pages of your rhetoric, developers. I really hope you were talking about the demo Thorbar. </QUOTE> Think about how small the hardcore multiplayer community is. Now divide it in half. That (or less) is how large the hardcore warez community is. And that is just the end users (downloaders), the actual underpinnings of the warez scene is comprised of maybe 1,000 people worldwide total. Of course that isn't counting the independant courier/distribution networks. This sort of penny-ante piracy isn't what software companies are really concerned about, it is the large scale overseas bootleg operations. <b>#64</b> "Chet" wrote... <QUOTE>George Broussard kills babies and forces the elderly to wash his car.</QUOTE> Don't you guys have <i>enough</i> lawsuits on your hands already? <b>#65</b> "El Asso Wipo!!" wrote... <QUOTE>George Broussard EATS babies, pees in the street and NEVER wipes.</QUOTE> Actually my original joke was that Scott Miller was the one who "eats babies". <b>#75</b> "Jeremy" wrote... <QUOTE>These games didn't exactly bomb, but their sales were considered by many as "failures" since they never achieved the hit status of many "lesser" games.</QUOTE> No multiplayer and a lack of sustained media/fan attention (both pre and post release) is what makes the hardcore audience <i>percieve</i> them to be failures. Whether they are or are not is irrelevant to them. - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>hmm. yeah, i can see that. Rollercoaster Tycoon, Deer Hunter, and Myst/Riven have huge mod bases, and are easily extensible, which explains why they keep selling. </quote> And the lack of exstensibility of the Sins, Shogos, Blood IIs, Klingon Honor Guards, Wheel of Times, Kingpins, Soldier of Fortunes really kept them from reaching the tops of the charts. Mods may have played a part in keeping Half-Life popular, but whether that actually led to any sales... (OK, now go ahead and chime in with your, "When my friend saw Counter Strike, he ran out and bought Half-Life" stories.) |
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In post #35, <b>George-who-for-some-reason-is-now-wearing-a-target</b> said: <quote>Thief, System Shock and even Deus Ex ...are too complex for the average gamer. <b>and</b> A critically aclaimed / award winning movie like Shakespeare in Love pales in box office dollars to movies like Jurassic Park. </quote> Interesting analogy; <i>Shakespeare</i> made me cringe repeatedly and thus loose interest, becuase of its' dammed self-satisfied cutsy "aren't we theatre people weird and adorable?" manner. <i>System Shock 2</i> made me loose interest d because micromanaging resources and skills (with a clumsy *modal(?)* UI) took me out of any immersion that the game managed to build. Both are simply misses due to the fundamental problem they didn't hook me and make me want to pay attention. I don't want to get into an "I can name more obscure and complex things than you can" pissing match, but their complexity was simply not the issue. It was they fact that they weren't immersive, the way any great entertainment should be. Maybe if I stayed with SS2 I would have gotten used to its quirks, and ended up liking it, but why should I spend hours doing something I'm not enjoying, becuase I *might* like it in the future? Good god, these are just video games (or movies) we are talking about. If it doesn't interest soon me I'll go to something that does. I don't have an infinite amount of leisure time, that's for dammned sure. - Remulak |
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<b>#78</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE> (OK, now go ahead and chime in with your, "When my friend saw Counter Strike, he ran out and bought Half-Life" stories.) </QUOTE> When my friend saw Counter Strike, he ran out and bought Half-Life, no actuallay I bought HL because I thought TFC was cool and that was about a year after the release. I bought quake 2 in december '98, because it was the bomb to play online that time (mind you.. before that I couldn't play online because of a crappy phone line and a 486 :)) Quake 3, Duke Nukem 3D and Kingping are the only games I bought the day they were on the shelfs :) -- I demand Free Hamster Porn!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Baytor: <quote>Okay, George, I have to ask. I've been following the Top 20 thing at Evil Avatar for the past several weeks, and Deus Ex has been consistently there (either #12 or #18, I don't remember which). Are you telling me that a game that stays in the Top 20 for a month is only selling 40K? </quote> That's what I'm telling you. I get the real PC Data with the sales numbers. Deus Ex is 39K for the year so far. Don't be fooled by Top 10's. The 10th position generally denotes sales of maybe 10K. #1, usually 50-100K. #20? Hell 3-5K maybe. Fluctuates with seasons, but it's a linear curve. Steve: <quote>If you have a new franchise from an unknown entity, wouldn't you stand a better chance of benefitting from increased foot traffic? If there's not other title driving people to the story in July, how are people going to buy your game?</quote> If y ou have a GREAT game it's better in off season. People will get to the store through word of mouth etc. You need a game that makes people show it to their friends when they come over, or call them up and say "man you GOTTA see this game". But the key is it has to be an awesome game. If it's not it matters little when you ship and that's why MOST games ship at Xmas. Some marketing jackass at publisher X KNOWS the game sucks balls and they wanna get as many impulse buys as they can. Would Deus Ex have done better at Christmas? Would KISS Psycho Circus? Who knows? KISS sold 6K it's 1st month. Would it have done better at Xmas amid Quake 3, UT and others? Maybe, but I doubt substantially. Maybe a little cause people would have seen the KISS brand. Deus Ex coming out mid year was good. It was alone to bask in the reviews and be singled out. Still too complex of a game to sell huge numbers though. but what about Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear? Big sellers, big complexity.) More sexy in concept. Its better to be a tactical real world swat dude, than some bio enhanced freak ;) People can relate to Rainbox Six's concept easier. Hell it's the Deer Hunter for "real" games. Everyone that owns a gun looks at RB6 and says "Cool!" <quote>If you go back, Blizzard launched WarCraft II at Christmas of 95 (and WarCraft was also a Christmas title a year or so earlier), and its success established them as a top developer. Its success also allowed Diablo to miss Christmas (by a few weeks). </quote> You can release a GREAT game anytime. If you are ready at Xmas you go. But if not, you don't sweat it. See the bottom line is: A great game will sell with no marketing or ads even. It's all word of mouth. A crappy game (like most) can't sell well with even Xmas or massive ads. So the key is - only make great games. Blizzard has learned. They bake them until they are right. <quote>Oh, and Shakespeare in Love grossed over $100 million domestically (probably three times that internationally), and probably cost about $30-$60 million to make. Jurassic Park grosses about $300 million domestically (about $500 worldwide</quote> Bad example on my part but you get the point. There are TONS of critically acclaimed movies that don't make any money. People want action movies and they are the big ticket movies most of the time. Same with video games. There's the odd exception like Baulder's Gate or The Sims etc. But most of the top games are action. <quote>Of course you could argue "Duke Hunting" games are the walks and singles, in terms of producing steady revenue for a company... and those singles, put together, could turn into a "big inning" or blockbuster. You never know. </quote> It's an experiment. The Duke brand is fairly large. Hunting games are popular. It's not rocket science to take Duke (who shoots shit) and say "Let's give him some new things to shoot." May work. May fail. Certainly not a game intended for you guys. But at the same time the engine is awesome and we're going to have a lot more involved gameplay than Carnivores, so I think it may even appeal to some of you. Especially for a $25 diversion. George Broussard, 3D Realms |
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<b>#78</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>And the lack of exstensibility of the Sins, Shogos, Blood IIs, Klingon Honor Guards, Wheel of Times, Kingpins, Soldier of Fortunes really kept them from reaching the tops of the charts. </QUOTE> Hmm... I have to disagree about the lack of modding for Shogo. If you look at the size of the Shogo community and the number of fun mods to play, it's a pretty good ratio. There's Defending the Monolith, Squishie, Bloodbath, Stick 'n Stones CTF. There's a few dozen multiplayer levels out there, also not a terrible number considering that they come from less than 10 mappers. I'm at a complete loss for why Shogo didn't sell better.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#26</b> "George Broussard" wrote this stuff" <QUOTE>Releasing at Xmas is stupid. You heard it here first and you will learn and see over time that it's silly beyond marketing belief. If you have a truly great game, it's FAR better to release in March/April or off peak time because you will be the ONLY GAME IN TOWN! You will get ALL the press and be the only real game to buy. </QUOTE> Not to mention the problems of trying to hit a projected target date and then having to release early just to make that date (Q2, Falcon 4, many nameless others) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Hey Gorgeous George, How's that Duke Nukem movie coming along? Think it'll have any boobies in it? |
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<b>Jeremy wrote in post #75:</b> <quote>System Shock of course also had a sequel, and I'd be surprised if Deus Ex doesn't end up with one as well</quote> It's already been talked about in some interviews, so bingo on your part. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#35</b> "George Broussard" wrote... <QUOTE>So then why has Deus Ex only sold 40K copies, while even Vampire has hit the 70K mark? I doubt Deus Ex will break 150K (if lucky) in US sales. That's an ok hit, but certainly NOT one in line with a game that gets consistent 90%+ reviews. The reivews read like Half Life's, yet HL sold a million copies. The reason? Sit down, here it comes... They are too complex for the average gamer. That's it. No complex reasons. No lack of marketing (a favorite culprit). Just too complex with all their powers, complicated inventory systems, and depth of plot/missions. The learning curve is too steep. </QUOTE> I'm not sure about the reasons that the 'average gamer' hasn't picked up a copy of Deus Ex yet, but I can tell you exactly why I haven't picked one up yet: the demo runs like ASS on my system. Considering that the only thing that's close to being average level in my system specs is the P3-600, I would say that's probably stopping a few more sales than just my copy. The game's going to have to sit on store shelves until I either get around to buying the GHz+ processor that will eventually replace this one, or it hits an all-time low price at which I can afford to buy it and let it sit until I get that CPU. The game looks great, probably has many many hours of playing time, but I don't like doing the start-stop-start-stop stutter step while trying to get into the shadows to hide from the friggin guard that's about to turn around and see me. Then again, it's probably more of a combination of the engine's problems with D3D/nVidia and the large scale of the maps than anything else. As for Half-life, well all I can say is that I've been playing TFC for over a year now, and I don't see that stopping any time soon. -PainKilleR-[CE] |
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<b>#38</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote... <QUOTE>I'd like to look at RPG sales numbers. Have any RPGs other than Console RPGs really sold that well? </QUOTE> ports of Console RPGs? the Action/RPG games (or at least Diablo/Diablo2)? Baldur's Gate had decent sales didn't it? Of course, at the same time Planescape Torment didn't have great sales, and I can attribute my lateness in purchasing that particular game to the fact that the only thing I knew about it for a long time was that it was using the Baldur's Gate engine, which led me to believe it was just another BG, which i could've cared less for at the time. -PainKilleR-[CE] |
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<b>PainKilleR-[CE] wrote in post #87:</b> <quote>at the same time Planescape Torment didn't have great sales</quote> Alright, everyone. Why did Torment sell badly? I personally think it was because no one knew about the damn game for it to sell, because I didn't hear about it for quite a while. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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Where can I buy a copy of the Last Express?? |
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<b>#88</b> "Dethstryk" wrote... <QUOTE><B>PainKilleR-[CE] wrote in post <A href="spy-internal:Load/140#87">#87</A>:</B> Alright, everyone. Why did Torment sell badly? I personally think it was because no one knew about the damn game for it to sell, because I didn't hear about it for quite a while. </QUOTE> Well, people who read our magazine knew all about it... we did a huge feature story a month or so before it came out. Shows how much influence we have... --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#81</b> "George Broussard" <QUOTE> It's an experiment. The Duke brand is fairly large. Hunting games are popular. It's not rocket science to take Duke (who shoots shit) and say "Let's give him some new things to shoot." May work. May fail. Certainly not a game intended for you guys. But at the same time the engine is awesome and we're going to have a lot more involved gameplay than Carnivores, so I think it may even appeal to some of you. Especially for a $25 diversion. </QUOTE> George, what's the skinny on the European release and approximate price? Games normally come out here at £35 and, increasingly, £30. When Dune 2000 came out... £20. Are you going to be brave, and give it to us at the UK version of $25... namely... £15? At that price, even I might give it a whirl! <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Duke Hunting <i>is to</i> Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3 <b>As</b> Duke Nukem Forever <i>is to</i> Daikatana *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Come on George, you can at least <i>pretend</i> that this Duke Hunting Game will be buyable. Who exactly is working on this thing anyway? I pity the poor kid that goes to 3DRealms thinking he'll make the next DN3D and ends up making "Duke Nukem Gem Puzzle Fighter".<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#69</b> "Mankovic" wrote... <QUOTE>RahvinTaka wrote orginally: <quote>The <B>majority of humanity</B> is lazy. They don't want to learn en route to <B>entertainement</B>. They prefer to sit back with <B>mindless gameplay</B>.</quote> of which I quoted in context: <quote>The majority of humanity is lazy.</quote> </quote> Nay you misquoted "So I think your assertion that gamers; et al "humanity', as a majority are lazy is dead wrong". <quote> to which he responded: <quote>And where did I ever suggest that humanity was only made up of gamers .. seems like a week assertion to me ...</quote> Hmmm.....you said it, not me...:P </QUOTE> errr - no you tried to associate gamers with my notion of humanity. You then proceeded to write a message that lied and backtracked to try and regain credability .... hmmmm. GREAT ONE !<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I'll probably buy it, just to make sure 3DR is well funded till DNF comes out ;) |
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George :<QUOTE>Everyone agrees (critics and die hards anyway) that they are AWESOME games. And they are. So then why has Deus Ex only sold 40K copies, while even Vampire has hit the 70K mark? I doubt Deus Ex will break 150K (if lucky) in US sales. That's an ok hit, but certainly NOT one in line with a game that gets consistent 90%+ reviews. The reivews read like Half Life's, yet HL sold a million copies</QUOTE> Euhm... I'm a critic, I love Vampire, and I don't like Deus Ex. Gotcha there George :) Guess I'm just too mainstream I suppose ? Speed Fragland.net |
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Flamey, <quote>George, what's the skinny on the European release and approximate price? Are you going to be brave, and give it to us at the UK version of $25... namely... £15? At that price, even I might give it a whirl!</quote> Really have no idea at the moment. What does something like Deer Hunter sell for over there? Ian: <quote>Duke Hunting is to Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3 As Duke Nukem Forever is to Daikatana Come on George, you can at least pretend that this Duke Hunting Game will be buyable. </quote> I did not say the above, it was someone else. Actually I think people are gonna be very surprised at the quality of the game and the photo-realistic nature of it. We're going to post some screenshots soon. <quote>Who exactly is working on this thing anyway? I pity the poor kid that goes to 3DRealms thinking he'll make the next DN3D and ends up making "Duke Nukem Gem Puzzle Fighter". </quote> Like the console games, it's liscensed to an outside group. In this case, it's Action Forms in Russia. These are the guys that did Carnivores/Carnivores 2. They have really cool technology. George Broussard, 3D Realms |
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<b>#96</b>, George Broussard: <QUOTE> Really have no idea at the moment. What does something like Deer Hunter sell for over there? </QUOTE> The price of the magazine. |
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