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The Future of Planetcrap's Message Board
January 7th 2012, 08:01 CET by Charles With Quarter to Three in the process of becoming a forum that no one can post on at all (with a current 1/15th of the posts belonging to banned users), is this finally Planetcrap's chance to regain the spotlight? Will the site revive? WILL MORN COME BACK? Probably not. |
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Topic: The Future of Planetcrap's Message Board
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Milan Your idea of a game scares the shit out of me. I would never even install a Skyrim that wanted me to pay per quest. I would buy into a game service where I could log in and try games that I wouldn't normally buy, but would want to play for awhile (for instance, when the last Batman came out and everyone was big on, I would have played it for a couple few hours just to see). I would probably only pay 15/m for it though. Anything more and I would just rather buy a full game like Skyrim and play the shit out of it. I used to be a member of Gamefly. I enjoyed it for awhile, but soon enough, there were no more games I really wanted to play. Maybe if you added in a whole PC library to go with that, I wouldn't get tired of the service as fast, but I don't know. To be fair, I'm not your average gamer. I only buy 3-4 games a year at full price. I'm happy to way on games I don't think are worth full price and I play older games as much as I pay new games. "programmers talk from a very deep gnome cavern, full of gold mechanics" - wisdom from the ancients
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You guys wouldn't be interested in a subscription that let you play ANY game on Steam --including new releases-- for a fixed price per month, but you lose access if/when you unsubscribe? I'd totally pay for that, though probably not more than the price of one game a month. (Absolutely pie in the sky, though, since the publishers would never go for it.) I buy less than a game a month, so it would have to be much cheaper than that. Maybe $13 a month for all you can eat, then maybe discounts on games you buy to keep forever? Same thing with Xbox, if Xbox live had an all you can eat I'd still only pay about that much, maybe a little more because my kids would use it. I don't know how many people game like me, but it's pretty rare for me to buy a game the month it's released, maybe three a year. Other than that I stock up on Steam sales or buy used on Amazon. |
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#133 by Matt Perkins Your idea of a game scares the shit out of me. I would never even install a Skyrim that wanted me to pay per quest. Well, my idea wasn't "you need to pay $0.25 for this small dungeon" - but for example, I know I don't like Dark Brotherhood, so I could, say, buy Skyrim for $55 and buy DB quest line later when I cave in under peer pressure. Or maybe let's try it this way - make short, good games with lots of DLC. Instead of $50 game make a $30 game with four $5 DLCs. If you're a "AAAA" studio with a product hyped long before it's released (Skyrim, COD, AC), it doesn't make sense, sure - people will buy the $60 game either way. But if you make a games with content-driven design, you can help yourself by releasing the game earlier, getting user feedback, creating more content that makes sense and knowing that you'll get paid based on how good your content is (which is what most publishers want to avoid, of course). Plus, there is a lot of improvement to be done in this area in the way how smoothly the content is introduced. "More levels/maps" is an easy and obvious way to do it. But for example Skyrim could also have DLC that wouldn't shove the new content bluntly - look, a magic door and a new, cleanly separated map. They could make the world age a few months, or make things happen differently in existing quest lines, change a lot of things for people who want a second replay, or add consequences of quests that you've completed. And the best of all, they could STILL tailor it for masses. Oh, more people have finished College of Winterhold than the main quest? No one plays Thieves Guild? Thanks for telling me, Steam! Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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tl;dr - We'll still have $60 games because if arcade is not fun, people don't insert coins. Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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I would love to comment on micropayments and streaming media sales--good golly good gosh, who wouldn't?--but instead, I must reveal to you all that I am a filthy, filthy walnut-eater/drug-user, and so, none of my opinions matter, unless I, I don't know what, but I'm not going to do it, FU, FU, FUE. http://www.riseearth.com/2012/01/fda-claims-walnuts-to-be-illegal-drugs.html (it's a hilarious article, shoot the messenger, read his mail) Charles: you want me to "speak" so bad, send me a bomb-ass phone, Matrix Bunny :P "You've just defined what's rude for everyone, not just you. Thanks, I needed help with that." - Matt P
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It is weird how the psychology on that works. Free to play, $0.25 per dungeon with 400 dungeons to choose from? FUCK NO. $80 up front for 400 dungeons, many of which you'll never visit? YES PLEASE. |
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Well, it's a false example. If you look at what gets included with a game vs what companies charge for DLC, you almost always get less when you buy it piecemeal. It's not 25 cents a level, it's $5 a level, or $60 for 400 levels. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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If a review site tells you what the 10 best levels are, you buy those for $50, get all killer no filler, and end up $10 ahead. But ooooh no, that's not how the human mind works. |
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That's true. I always buy DLC on sale, but Shivering Isles was once DLC that was amazing. But I don't recall what was its release price. $20 maybe? Borderland's third DLC also seemed appropriate for the price. Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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Never trust a review site. |
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I'm not gonna argue about whether it can or can't work, I'll just say that the only games I can think of that did DLC right were Rock Band and Fallout 3. All the other games were not enough content for the money. And with Fallout, I didn't even buy it as DLC, I waited and got the GOTY version that had everything. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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I think I bought some of the Fallout 3 DLC because it added in levels and some cool armor/weapons for not much cost. I wanted to buy some of the F:NV, but none it ever appealed to me. I burned out on the game twice before I beat it (30+ hours each time), but just couldn't care enough about any of the extra content to give it a shot. I bought the DoW II DLC stuff when it went on sale recently because I could get it all for something like $10. That was worth it to me. Most DLC is not. "programmers talk from a very deep gnome cavern, full of gold mechanics" - wisdom from the ancients
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Old World Blues is about the only F:NV DLC truly worth your time, but it is a very fun add on. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" - "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
"LP, your big balls are a religion." - Jibble |
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You guys still have the *worst* ideas about games. No.
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Until somebody actually puts robot police dogs in a game, you have no basis for that claim. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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That's not fair. It's mostly just Milan. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" - "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
"LP, your big balls are a religion." - Jibble |
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#146 by Charles You guys still have the *worst* ideas about games. We do NOT. For example, listen to this one: quarters. I know, I know: it's been done to death - but what's this? Hey, these are Virtual Quarters! Retro AND fairly intangible, so could it not be an instant winner? ¤ "Apple hates everyone now." - BJB
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Also, I very much welcome both the return of Charles (loved the programming thread, btw) and the haggle-gaggle-armchair-pieinthesky spirit Milan seems to be bringing to the table (in this particular instance, at least). ¤ "Apple hates everyone now." - BJB
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We do NOT. For example, listen to this one: quarters. I know, I know: it's been done to death - but what's this? Hey, these are Virtual Quarters! Retro AND fairly intangible, so could it not be an instant winner? I vaguely recall some downloadable or mobile game trying that. The game was cheap or free but had to buy virtual quarters to keep playing. BUYBUYBUY
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Gametap tried (is trying?) to do the subscription thing. I tried it for a month or two, it wasn't bad. The whole download and install part was a deterrent, so something like Onlive might be smoother. For people that obsess over one game until they finish it it won't make any sense, but if someone likes to sample it would work well. Also recently there's been "play a demo streaming from your browser" from some bigger name games (FIFA 12, Dead Rising 2, Bastion) so if that catches on that could help. |
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#151 by BobJustBob I vaguely recall some downloadable or mobile game trying that. The game was cheap or free but had to buy virtual quarters to keep playing. Yeah, that's what I get for trying to be sarcastic (and failing) about the circular nature of game design and its marketing. ¤ "Apple hates everyone now." - BJB
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#148 by LPMiller That's not fair. It's mostly just Milan. True, but at least I lovingly cherry pick all the worst ideas. #152 by eggbert Also recently there's been "play a demo streaming from your browser" from some bigger name games (FIFA 12, Dead Rising 2, Bastion) so if that catches on that could help. Yes, I mentioned Gaikai twice. It was supposed to be "rent/buy a game, play from a thin client instead of buying high-end PC", and it ended up being just "look, shiny demo! buy full game!" for now. See, I'm not the only one with Cloud In The Sky ideas, Perry has them too! Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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An article about money making myths in app store(s). Koster's article about F2P vs subscriptions. Also, as for my trolling - I'm mostly brainstorming, because this topic does interest me, but I'm tired of current game monetization models. I plan to make/release my F2P game in the next 9-12 months. Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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Koster speaks truth. |
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That Koster article is bullshit. Major League Baseball teams spend money on better players, therefore don't complain when someone beats you because he spent more in a game you are playing for fun? But he is right about how F2P games have to be shitty so you'll spend money to make them better, and that's why they suck. BUYBUYBUY
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Koster is saying that the economic argument of investment vs skill is the same as in MLB, and people don't cry that the MLB is evil and stealing money out of viewers' pockets. It may be unfair, but it's not some new menace devised by cloven-hoofed game designers. Is coach class in a plane shitty? Maybe, but it gets you to the destination at the cheapest rate, which is why it's popular. If plane seats were sold like video games, every seat would be first class and cost many multiples of what coach used to sell for. |
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If plane seats were like video games, I'd torrent myself to Thailand this weekend. Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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Players in the MLB are performing a job for which they are being paid. That is completely irrelevant to a discussion of leisure activities. BUYBUYBUY
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You don't understand Koster's point, Bob. |
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His point is he loves money. BUYBUYBUY
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And your point is you're a communist? |
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I like games. BUYBUYBUY
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Stalin also liked games. Damn commie. |
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The economic inequality in baseball is part of the reason the NFL has become the biggest sports league in the US. Because guess what? People like it better when their team has an equal chance to win. Suck on that, Koster. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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Koster is saying that the economic argument of investment vs skill is the same as in MLB, and people don't cry that the MLB is evil and stealing money out of viewers' pockets. It may be unfair, but it's not some new menace devised by cloven-hoofed game designers. What you have said here does not make sense. The players in the MLB are not analogous to the players of video games since it isn't like MLB players have to pay to play the game. The real analogy is to say that the MLB team owners are the players of a F2P videogame since they can pay more money to enhance their competitive advantage in the league. The developers in this analogy are the MLB itself, which collectively sets rules permitting money to be used by team owners in this way. There is no mapping analogy for the viewers of MLB games in this context - except to suggest that maybe they are the gaming press? |
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This discussion is just further evidence that baseball blows. |
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I don't think Koster has said anything even remotely intelligent in the last 15 years or more. Zep-- w0rd up!
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I dunno if he's said anything, but he did have that puppycam. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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Koster works very hard to make the F2P model seem less skanky. I don't think he succeeds. His argument boils down to, "Look, some people have a lot of money. They will spend it on your F2P if you trick them into it really well. It's all right, because they were going to spend that money on something, why not convince them to do it with you!" Not impressed. "programmers talk from a very deep gnome cavern, full of gold mechanics" - wisdom from the ancients
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His argument boils down to, "This is America. In America, we like capitalism. Capitalism is based on encouraging the maximisation of production efficiency to generate the highest profits. Many industries before F2P gaming have established that demand follows a long tail distribution, thus they concentrate on the high rollers. What are you, a goddamn heathen pinko commie?" |
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When I make a F2P game, it will have a limit on how much you can spend a month. Of course, you'll be able to raise the limit by buying a budget extender item. Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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Didn't PA have a strip about a card-swipe peripheral for some game? My gut says it was about WoW, but surely that can't be right. ¤ "Apple hates everyone now." - BJB
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Animal Crossing had e-Reader support. Is that what you mean? |
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F2P can go suck a dick*. I'd rather live in a cardboard box than make a game that subscribes to such ethically bankrupt game design. Not to be confused with free games, or games that can be extended in a natural fashion with purchases. No.
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Charles - so what do you consider "natural fashion" and what is "ethically bankrupt"? 1. Are visual customizations (regardless of how lame or expensive some recent DLCs might be) evil? 2. Are extra weapons in single-player only games evil? (Just Cause 2) 3. Are different weapons with a slight advantage in PvP bad? Would they be okay in PvE multiplayer games? 4. Would it be okay if some iAP would allow you to make progress faster, but require the same skill to play the game? 5. Is a shortcut through grinding a bad game design, ignoring the fact that grinding itself is a bad game design? 6. How about game design elements, that don't give you any real edge (no weapons, powerups), but are just inconvenient for non-payers, e.g. if you die, you need to walk from spawn point to your corpse; or some UI improvements that add shortcuts or automatize micromanaging? Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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Well, Charles says he already has more money than he needs... so really, what value can his opinion on F2P offer? He's already Won the Game of Life! Move over, Bacon! Time for someone with a new moral compass! Hey, do any of you guys like that dubstep stuff? I hear it is all the rage with the kids these days, I wouldn't know. Fuck kids these days, man, fuck kids. However, this video makes me wish that I did, in fact, like dubstep. Maybe turn the sound down and play some Mozart or Wagner or something. Just watch the pretty pictures. Video of the year already, imho. "You've just defined what's rude for everyone, not just you. Thanks, I needed help with that." - Matt P
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#175 by G-Man Animal Crossing had e-Reader support. Is that what you mean? I think the PA comic was about that game for the Playstation camera where you got MTG-style cards and held them up to the camera and then you could use them in the game or some such. #178 by jafd Hey, do any of you guys like that dubstep stuff? I hear it is all the rage with the kids these days, I wouldn't know. Fuck kids these days, man, fuck kids. However, this video makes me wish that I did, in fact, like dubstep. Maybe turn the sound down and play some Mozart or Wagner or something. Just watch the pretty pictures. Video of the year already, imho. Good video and a fine song, but can somebody tell me what differentiates dubstep from other types of techno? Because it doesn't sound significantly different to me than what Utah Saints were doing 20 years ago. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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#179 by Shadarr Good video and a fine song, but can somebody tell me what differentiates dubstep from other types of techno? People didn't use to have seizures while dancing to techno. Parhelic Triangle is coming. Eventually.
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Depends whether there's a strobe light, I expect. "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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What's the difference between Robert Plant and Elvis Presley? Well, one of them is dead... and the other, is fucking Elvis Presley. "You've just defined what's rude for everyone, not just you. Thanks, I needed help with that." - Matt P
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