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WHAM, DIABLO III UP THE ISOMETRIC ASS!!!
July 3rd 2008, 04:20 CEST by m0nty Just to keep it all in one place. And by "it" I mean the slobbering fanboiism and the rare sane voice among the mob. |
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Topic: WHAM, DIABLO III UP THE ISOMETRIC ASS!!!
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You've got issues, kid. |^^^^^^^^^^^^ |||__
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I had this long rant all written up, but basically I disagree that the popular sexy character designs we get are a direct result of masturbation-prone juvenile workers. Rather I think it's to do with how games are so focused on getting high initial sales, so designs are required to instantly appeal to the perceived audience. The mandate from corporate is probably to add sex to make sure it sells. But I'll spare us all that ranting. Instead I got to wondering how many high-profile positive female characters are out there? Alyx and the girl from Uncharted are the ones that comes to mind. Oh and Jade from BG&E. A quick google tells me Yuma from Final Fantasy could be another? How long can we make the list? "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Alyx sucks. She's a useless character that shamelessly panders to the audience in the exact way the other bimbos do, plus she throws herself at you from the start. She wears tasteful clothes but is still an oversexualized man-magnet. "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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gaggle (#1302): I had this long rant all written up, but basically I disagree that the popular sexy character designs we get are a direct result of masturbation-prone juvenile workers. Rather I think it's to do with how games are so focused on getting high initial sales, so designs are required to instantly appeal to the perceived audience. The mandate from corporate is probably to add sex to make sure it sells. You work in games. Do your bosses send out mandates that the girls your games aren't porn star enough looking? Yes, sex sells. No, it's not required. No, every product shouldn't be betting on sex to sell it. Does every movie feel the need to include a mostly naked woman in it? Nope. Not to mention many of the games that are released with ridiculous females obviously aren't required to put them their by their corporate parents (either they don't have them or have it's known they have design control). Can't blame everything on the suits. But I'll spare us all that ranting. Instead I got to wondering how many high-profile positive female characters are out there? Alyx and the girl from Uncharted are the ones that comes to mind. Oh and Jade from BG&E. A quick google tells me Yuma from Final Fantasy could be another? How long can we make the list? That it's this hard to come up with a list beyond four names doesn't seem like a problem to you? "the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum
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#1303 by BobJustBob Alyx sucks. She's a useless character that shamelessly panders to the audience in the exact way the other bimbos do, plus she throws herself at you from the start. She wears tasteful clothes but is still an oversexualized man-magnet. This may be so, but the discussion right now is visual design, and in that, at leasy by video game standards, Alyx is very good. Also: link to a big gallery of female videogame characters. "Bioshock, sadly, is no Painkiller." - BobJustBob
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The problem I see here is in how difficult it is for me to accurately describe my opinion. Because yes I don't exactly agree with you but that doesn't mean I'm in the opposite camp. I do see a problem with how females (but really characters in general) are used in games, and I do want games as a whole to develop. I've mentioned Uncharted countless times as something I perceive as a bit of a shining beacon. Alyx too, but Bob's response makes me so physically tired that I'd rather just skip her as an example. At the center of this is that Underboob lady doesn't make me angry or sad. She's just.. there. She's a product of how the games industry is, she's a product of mass-appeal, and she's a product of our culture that allows females to be aggressive and carry guns and goggles. That's not all bad! Metal bikinis makes me roll my eyes, that's too ridonculous and juvenile, but Underboob Lady just caters to its audience imo. Assuming its genre is a forgetable action-shooter-whatever. And I get it, we disagree on that, it's a matter of perception. Far more annoying to me is the whole porn-actress-signing-event thing for Saint's Row 2, the game's attitude and marketing exudes so much stupid I just can't see past. I almost turned off the first game as the intro was rolling, it was so chock-full of awful wannabe-gangsta' fuckshit. Oh! The Mirror's Edge protagonist. Another for the list? "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Alyx too, but Bob's response makes me so physically tired that I'd rather just skip her as an example. You're saying that I could render you unconscious or even kill you if I find the right set of words? Hmm.... "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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Reading past the mention of my name, WTF gaggle. Saints Row is trash, Warrior Within is trash, but underboob lady is superawesome and you don't know why anyone would have a problem with her. "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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gaggle (#1285): From time to time it had a vibe similar to The Man From Earth, which is quite possibly my favorittest underrated movie of all time. I loved that. It were great. Good ending, too. The Big Lebowski was shit, like most Coen films except Raising Arizona and O Brother. The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear, in the local language, to read “Go stick your head in a pig”, and are no longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration.
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A new challenger has appeared! "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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#1308 by BobJustBob Reading past the mention of my name, WTF gaggle. Saints Row is trash, Warrior Within is trash, but underboob lady is superawesome and you don't know why anyone would have a problem with her. Your phrasing is humorously simplifying my opinion. Underboob Lady reminds me of Laura Croft or Mary. Maybe undeservedly, after all I don't know anything about the actual game yet. But from a pure design perspective I think they effectively accomplish the task of generating interest and setting a tone. Neither of these characters do anything to mature the perception of games, but they're still not cringe worthy like I think Gary Busey's endorsements of Saints Row 2 is. The former is designing for an audience, the other a failed attempt at being hip and knowing what it is that is up in the hood. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Oh and cool link Hugin, there are some laughable designs in there heh. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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The Big Lebowski was shit, like most Coen films except Raising Arizona and O Brother. Welcome to Wrongsville. Population: You. |
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McBain (#1313): The Big Lebowski was shit, like most Coen films except Raising Arizona and O Brother. Welcome to Wrongsville. Population: You. Says the mayor of Tired Cliché City. "I buy Captain Crunch because I like a man in uniform." - BobJustBob
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#1304 by Matt Perkins Does every movie feel the need to include a mostly naked woman in it? A lot of shitty ones do. I think a parallel can be drawn here. #1305 by Hugin This may be so, but the discussion right now is visual design, and in that, at leasy by video game standards, Alyx is very good. Actually, I read a pretty good column positing that Alyx is as much a male fantasy as any bimbo, she's just a geek fantasy rather than a frat-boy fantasy. I haven't played HL, but based on what I've read I'd tend to agree. I think Jade from BG&E is a much better female character. Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
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Which is to say you control Jade, but Alyx is just a supporting character. Big difference, that. I think especially in Ep1 Valve managed to bring a lot of personality forward in Alyx, she maintained an interesting relationship with you. Clearly she's infatuated with Gordon, but there are no boobs or orgasmic facial contortions in sight. But yeah of course she's a fantasy. Of course she's as likeable as possible. Alyx is a character in a story and her role is to please the audience, but the point is she does so without resorting to sex. Her toolkit includes the way she looks at you, her little comments, poses, manners, a whole range of subtler details. Things that any movie can do but are difficult to pull off in CGI. Utilizing that toolkit instead of relying on sex is one way to mature the industry. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Huh that came off almost disagreeing, but I actually meant to say I agree. Jade is a much better female character on account of all the things she gets into. I just meant to say that Alyx can't really develop all the same since she's not controllable. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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TreeFrog (#1309): The Big Lebowski was shit, like most Coen films except Raising Arizona and O Brother. I burst out laughing when I read this. Hoo, boy. Invention is the Green Goblin of Necessary Lemonade.
--Flowers |
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#1305 by Hugin Also: link to a big gallery of female videogame characters. No sign of Lula, Ghost, BloodRayne, not even Elexis Sinclaire... huge numbers of DoA / beat 'em up girls though. Seems fairly console-centric. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!
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#1315 by Shadarr Actually, I read a pretty good column positing that Alyx is as much a male fantasy as any bimbo, she's just a geek fantasy rather than a frat-boy fantasy. I haven't played HL, but based on what I've read I'd tend to agree. I think Jade from BG&E is a much better female character. The thing is, I'm not arguing against characters in games being fantasies, or serving to fluff the player's ego or whatever. I'm simply arguing that unless a character is actually supposed to be a stripper, could we stop making female characters dress like strippers? And that the clothing a character wears should in to some defensible degree match their role in the game. Yes, Alyx is idealized in various ways visually and in terms of her characterization, she's supposed to hit certain geek buttons, but at the end of the day my baseline demands are met: No thong-n-thigh high boots, no boobs held back with dental floss, an outfit she could actually, I dunno, do generic fixer-upper tasks in or go hiking or something, not go clubbing or hang out in a hot tub. "Bioshock, sadly, is no Painkiller." - BobJustBob
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Summary: It's okay if all female game characters are whores, as long as they don't dress like whores. "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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BobJustBob (#1321): Summary: It's okay if all female game characters are whores, as long as they don't dress like whores. This from who mere moments ago says he doesn't engage in hyperbole. Well played, sir, well played. "the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum
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I don't, and that wasn't. Read, understand, then quip. "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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Bob's right though, Hugin's position is basically that it's okay for female characters to be male fantasies, as long as they put on a jacket before they catch their death. But I think what really pisses off Hugin about that picture isn't what she's wearing but the fact that he can't buy her new clothes. Hugin loves his dress-up. Personally, I don't care that much. If the game is good, I'll play it. If not, I won't. I don't really care whether it fails to advance the industry or whatever. My girlfriend wanted to watch me play DOA Extreme 2, and told me which character to pick. So I'm really not sure on who's behalf we're supposed to be upset. Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
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anachronism - when you said Lula did you mean Lulu from FFX? I saw her on that list. |^^^^^^^^^^^^ |||__
| こんにちは | ||'|"\,__. |_..._...______===|=||_|__|...,] (@)'(@)"""*|(@)*(@)*****(@) |
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Summary: It's okay if all female game characters are whores, as long as they don't dress like whores. Awesome troll. |
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Yes, it was pretty good if that was Hugin's intent. But I think he was serious. "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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Oh for goodness sake, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I understand that in a game it's okay for NPC characters to be designed to support the player character, and it's okay for characters to have certain idealized traits or whatever. It's okay if NPCs treat you like the hero and admire you (or fear you or whatever), assuming this is handled in a reasonable way. It's even okay if part of this includes characters of whatever gender flirting with you or whatnot. My problem is when the game industry takes it to grotesque, insulting extremes, such that various characters don't even fit their nominal role anymore, because the need to sex them up overrides all other considerations. My problem is when characters wear clothes that literally would flop off their bodies if they tried to move or fight in them. My problem is when male characters seem to be in "hero world" and the female characters standing right next to them seem to be in "porno world". And that it seems to be the only type of character a lot of game designers are capable of making. "Bioshock, sadly, is no Painkiller." - BobJustBob
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Bob, denial at the lengths you're taking it to is depressing. Just saying no whenever someone says you're trolling ain't cutting it. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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#1328 by Hugin My problem is when the game industry takes it to grot etc. etc. Well phrased, and just for the record we agree. In principle. Disagreement occurs in specific examples since our opinions of what is grotesque differs but that can't really be helped. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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In the end times, we will all vie for the support of gaggle. Wars will be fought, and legless zombies will roam the plains in search of fast food. |
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Oh boy I hope. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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#1325 by Greg anachronism - when you said Lula did you mean Lulu from FFX? I saw her on that list. No, I meant her - obviously not on the merits of the games, but she's still a quintessential part of any 'game babes' list. Well, at least she used to be a couple of years back... but on second thought, I can understand why she's been omitted. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!
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#1328 by Hugin My problem is when characters wear clothes that literally would flop off their bodies if they tried to move or fight in them. My problem is when male characters seem to be in "hero world" and the female characters standing right next to them seem to be in "porno world". And that it seems to be the only type of character a lot of game designers are capable of making. Because they've done their market research. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!
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The only thing in this thread I've read recently is TBL. I too have never seen the movie. At least not from start to finish all in one sitting. Everytime it comes on tv, I watch part of it and have probably seen all of the scenes but never all at once and in order. |
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So Hugin, Gaggle, Shadarr, Cheesypoof, Monty and Squeaky. Treefrog's okay though, the poor lad is clearly troubled. MP3 Of The Week: Pete Rodriguez - I Like It Like That.mp3 (?)
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BIAS Invention is the Green Goblin of Necessary Lemonade.
--Flowers |
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Anaqer: Games won't get somehow magically better if female characters wore less revealing clothes and/or looked homelier. Well, there's your problem: it's not about games getting better. Not in the least. It's about little girls who play video games who grow up to be big girls who play video games. My 11 year old niece loves video games (and happens to be a total girly girl, with pink princess bed sheets and dolls everywhere). She lives in that innocent world where she hasn't seen games like Saints Row 2 or any of the games mentioned so far where female characters wear metal crotch torture devices they like to call "panties." But she's going to be hitting that world around, oh, say 13 or 14 or 15 years old, right when her self-esteem is in the balance and she's feeling awkward about her blossoming body and the fact that boys are constantly staring at it even though it makes her uncomfortable. And that's when she gets to see representations of how female soldiers in the future apparently are supposed to look like porn actresses and not like real soldiers. It's bad enough that magazines like Cosmopolitan and Seventeen berate her with impossible-to-attain images of what she's supposed to look like; she also gets to see that when the adults in her universe, the people who she's supposed to be able to look up to, are allowed to speculate on what the future might hold, a future in which anything is possible, that future apparently still only wants her to look like a porn star. You can say that I'm taking the role of video games way too seriously, but like it or not the representation of women in games, just like the representation of women in any other form of media -- TV shows, movies, magazines -- impacts the self-esteem and self-image of girls and women everywhere. It happens whether you want it to or not, and whether you're a woman who knows it shouldn't or not. And it impacts the perception that boys her age will have on what women should act and look like. And that's why this bit from Hugin is so important: My problem is when male characters seem to be in "hero world" and the female characters standing right next to them seem to be in "porno world". This is what my 11-year-old niece will see when her interest in video games matures. Does this mean games have a responsibility to better the image of women in games? No, but like any area, it would be really, really great and really, really redeeming if someone stepped up to the plate and tried to do it, and it's not that fucking hard. Just like Hugin said -- if you're making a bunch of male and female soldiers in your game, make your female soldiers look like goddamn soldiers and not porn stars. It's not hard. I'm sure someone will mention the Demigod trailer that was just released where we have a mostly nude female character rising out of a blossoming flower. And there's always the Hellchick models from Quake 3 and 4. But again, it's about context: in a fantasy or alien universe these kinds of characters fit, but a female soldier wearing a thong, thigh-high boots, and a bra she's popping out of just looks stupid and immature. And anyone who doesn't understand where the line is is being deliberately obtuse, and I can only hope that you someday have a daughter because I'm pretty sure you'll start to understand. Bellydance!
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BIAS Not so! We might be in the same country, but he's in Glasgow which is like the angry thug of Scotland everyone else pretends isn't there. They'll deny it of course and claim fierce patriotism, but the truth is they only venture out of their grim council estates for an annual trip 30 miles north to litter Loch Lomond with empty cans of Tennant's Lager, then satisfied with the natural beauty of "their" country they retreat back to carry on fighting for ownership of vats of chip pan fat using crude weapons made from broken Buckfast bottles and Vauxhall Astra fan belts. MP3 Of The Week: Pete Rodriguez - I Like It Like That.mp3 (?)
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It's like Fallout? <Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
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#1338 is exactly right in every single aspect of it. Well said, Caryn. "the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum
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There are also two reactions that some male gamers have to this topic that irritate the fuck out of me: "Dude, it's just a game. Get over yourself." Yeah, and to some people that movie that you think is a masterpiece with deep meaning is just a damn movie, get over it. Everyone has a different level of meaning attached to art or music or movies or books or entertainment, and it's just too damn bad for you if some of us feel it's more important than you. "It isn't like she's naked. Geez, it's like nothing can make you chicks happy." I could step back in time and tell Hugin's great-great-great grandfather that he should be happy blacks are in movies now, I mean so what if they're portrayed in horribly racist roles as uneducated lackies, geez, it's like he wants the world or something. I mean, it's just a movie. You know what? You don't own the hobby. You haven't since women and girls started becoming a significant demographic of the medium a few years ago. So grow up and put that outdated, adolescent child mindset behind you. Bellydance!
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I agree with anapopolis and caryn. |
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#1328 by Hugin My problem is when the game industry takes it to grotesque, insulting extremes, such that various characters don't even fit their nominal role anymore, because the need to sex them up overrides all other considerations. While pointing out the problem I think Hugin has hinted at the real reason it happens as well. When you think about it action games tend to fall into an almost grotesque extreme of the same male fantasy shown in action movies. When you've taken a guy it top physical form with a big gun doing a single heroic act and turned it into a guy on steroids with a freaking massive gun (with extra deadly attachments) winning a whole damn war it stands to reason that the sexualized realistic female roles would also go to the extremes and end up in a mini-skirt, half a flack jacket and no shirt. Don't forget garnishes such as: Fish shaped solid waste.
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#1338 by Caryn it would be really, really great and really, really redeeming if someone stepped up to the plate and tried to do it Some games have done it. The existence of Saint's Row and DOA does not negate the existence of Mass Effect and BG&E. So while I sort of agree with your overall point, this statement is worthless. What you're really saying is everyone needs to do it, because if you just cared that some games provide realistic clothing for women you'd be happy. I just don't think gaming needs to be held to a higher standard than other media. It would be great if all games, movies and music were better. But given the real world, I don't see the point of bringing up specific examples of misogyny in games and ignoring movies, comic books and music videos. Sure, some girls are going to want to look like Lara Croft or Bloodrayne, but a hell of a lot more are going to want to look like Hillary Duff and Naomi Campbell. Or, hell, with kids today they may idolize actual porn stars. In which case having such characters in games is actually girl friendly. And anyone who doesn't understand where the line is is being deliberately obtuse, and I can only hope that you someday have a daughter because I'm pretty sure you'll start to understand. I didn't wish STDs on you, I'd appreciate it if you extend me the same courtesy. Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
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urk Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
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#1338 by Caryn You can say that I'm taking the role of video games way too seriously, In this case, I think you are. Sure, games do have an impact (just like everything else) - but compared to other media, it's a relatively miniscule one. I'd actually give children a little more credit this time around and presume that they realize it's just a damn game. In this regard, your line of reasoning seems a bit too close to those who think FPSen are just glorified murder simulators. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!
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The only games that are suitable for a woman audience are kids games. Take from that what you will. |
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Dumdeedum (#1339): the truth is they only venture out of their grim council estates for an annual trip 30 miles north to litter Loch Lomond with empty cans of Tennant's Lager, then satisfied with the natural beauty of "their" country they retreat back to carry on fighting for ownership of vats of chip pan fat Broadly accurate using crude weapons made from broken Buckfast bottles and Vauxhall Astra fan belts. Piss off. We have knives. "I buy Captain Crunch because I like a man in uniform." - BobJustBob
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And electric ball breakers. Any game where competence can be measured by the amount of clicks per minute is not a strategy game.
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