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Heroes, Anti-Heroes, and Pure Evil
April 8th 2008, 23:52 CEST by Caryn A couple of months ago a friend insisted that I should play Jade Empire, a classic Xbox game from Bioware, and I found myself completely hooked. I didn't expect to be so won over given that I really disliked KOtOR, but Jade Empire really turned me around. And so having finished that game last week, I started playing Mass Effect this weekend. These games have gotten me thinking about the Good and Evil spectrum that's such a standard in recent Bioware games (I'm not too familiar with Bioware games pre-KOtOR). I notice that when I'm given the choice to move my character along these spectrum, I find I want to initially play the evil bad ass because that would be dark and cool, but I'm hesitant to do so for what seems like such a stupid reason: I get the sense that developers always build a game around the idea that you're a hero, and thus inherently good, and that playing the evil path is really more of a side game that you play later just to see what it's like, after you've seen the "real" game the developers intended you to see. And I don't know why I think this, but I suspect it's because games are typically built on very black and white stories with simple concepts of good and evil, and the hero always prevails even if we're being given the option to play the bad guy and even win as that character. This is where Mass Effects gets interesting for me. Rather than creating a simple good and evil spectrum, they have the Paragon and Renegade spectrum, a spectrum with names that are less associated with black and white concepts of good and evil and more associated with taking the high road versus getting the job done no matter what it takes. I created a female marine and chose the Spacer and Ruthless options for my character, because she looked like the type of person who was career military and who wouldn't take shit from anyone. Then I worried that I would be forced to take her down a purely dark and evil path, but have happily found out that you can play your character as an anti-hero without losing too much of the hero aspect. It makes me wonder what most people like to see in these types of games -- do you like your choice-based games to have strong concepts of good and evil? Do you always choose one particular side to play, and what do you choose first if you play more than one? Do you feel that having morally ambiguous paths for your character waters down the enjoyment of a game and makes it less heroic and epic? Does it take games closer to other forms of storytelling like movies and novels when your character isn't so black and white, and is this a good or a bad thing for games? |
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Topic: Heroes, Anti-Heroes, and Pure Evil
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For whatever reason I liked it more when I thought it was only a couple discs. I'll still leave it in my queue. <Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
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TF- The Rebuild stuff is pretty recent, correct? I haven't seen any of it. The first time I saw EVA I watched all 26 episodes, and while I didn't necessarily dislike 25-26, I think the movie flows better as part of the story. That's why I decided to do it that way the second time around. I'm not a huge anime fan by any stretch, but there are some I like. I own box sets for Macross, Kimagure Orange Road (my favorite), and Neon Genesis Evangelion, and that's about it, save for a few randoms bits and all of Robotech (which I am currently rewatching). |
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yotsuya (#652): The Rebuild stuff is pretty recent, correct? I haven't seen any of it. Relatively. The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear, in the local language, to read “Go stick your head in a pig”, and are no longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration.
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Some of the series linked have premises I just can't get into. Like that Wolf and Spice, its wiki entry actively makes me less interested. I guess I'm just so shallow I need my superpowered space-robot-cyborg übergirl to really appreciate animé. Still though, Lept Through Time and Full Metal Panic is queued up for now. I remember being really rather impressed with Last Exile, a story about waring nations and a mysterious Guild that keeps watch, set in a beautiful world of flying capital ships and steam power. Loved that one, and I even recall it as free from many of the weird anime cliches such as name-screaming and cutesy humor popping up unexpectedly. In other words it might be noob-friendly, to a degree. There was also Kino's Journey, a very, uh, introspective look at subjects pertaining to human societies, the way we interact and think and do things. It was awesome, but very meandering and reflective on things. It'd be a difficult diet for some I think. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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I'd like a recommendation on a good anime about samurai, maybe something in the style of the samurai episode of Animatrix or of Aeon Flux. TreeFrog? "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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I remember trying to watch some Evangelion episodes, but that series has like a hundred years worth of stories doesn't it? All kinds of reboots and movies and criss-crossings that I never did get into, so I never knew where to start. What's that about yot skipping the last two episodes and some guy being a sick fuck, etc.? "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Hundred years worth of stories? No. Wrong series. |
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Well from a quick wiki it doesn't sound entirely straight-forward either. But sure, a hundred years was hyperbolic of me. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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It's a good series. It's the antithesis of the BigBoobBigBotBigGuns genre (though it does have these elements). The religious elements are interesting as well. |
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It's a good series. It's the antithesis of the BigBoobBigBotBigGuns genre (though it does have these elements). The religious elements are interesting as well. |
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In terms of Anime/Manga how does Rurouni Kenshin rate? I remember watching the first 70 or so episodes many years ago. I enjoyed it then, not sure I could sit through it now. |
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I watched an early episode of Death Note. It falls into the trap of not animating the manga, i.e. way too many lengthy internal soliloquys while the characters stare fearfully at each other and/or into space. Then again, it may just be true to life about how teenagers these days are trembling maelstroms of conflicting emotions inside while they show nothing to the outside world. Annoying either way. |
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Yotsuya, if you like Orange Road you might like Fruits Basket. Maybe. "Bioshock, sadly, is no Painkiller." - BobJustBob
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I've heard of Fruits Basket, but honestly, I haven't really watched anything new since 2000. Maybe I'll see if someone I know has it. |
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After reading this thread I suddenly realized I watch far, FAR more anime then anyone else on this board. And I thought I was normal. :( Any game where competence can be measured by the amount of clicks per minute is not a strategy game.
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Ruroken was a pretty decent series, though a bit long. Sometimes ridiculous. The entire third or fourth season was a series of fights which culminated in a three episode long final battle, comprised mostly of people standing around glaring at each other while spectators did voice overs. |
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I still have some of the music bits from it in my battlefield playlist, though I don't know that I'd ever care to watch it again or would care about it if I tried watching it today. |
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The entire third or fourth season was a series of fights which culminated in a three episode long final battle, comprised mostly of people standing around glaring at each other while spectators did voice overs. That's your definition of pretty decent, huh? Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
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no, that was my definition of sometimes ridiculous. Then again, I got the entire series off of the donkey back in... 2002? |
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gaggle (#654): I guess I'm just so shallow I need my superpowered space-robot-cyborg übergirl to really appreciate animé. You're going to fucking love Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Giant robots, generously proportioned lead female, special-attack-name-shouting, the works. FoRmaT (#655): I'd like a recommendation on a good anime about samurai, maybe something in the style of the samurai episode of Animatrix or of Aeon Flux. Hm. Not my specialist field. I think Nabari no Ou has samurai, but it was a bit emo for me. Which is saying a lot, since NGE is my favourite TV series. yotsuya (#660): The religious elements are interesting as well. I never got my head around the fascination with Judeo-Christian imagery. I guess it's the other side of Western fascination with Shinto rituals etc. The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear, in the local language, to read “Go stick your head in a pig”, and are no longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration.
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A friend of mine, who is like the biggest Anime fan in Spain, just recommended these to me: Death note Es nabari no ou Bleach Soul Eater I'm downloading some Death note now, it sounds pretty interesting. "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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I dunno, I tried watching gurren lagann, but after eight episodes I just didn't care. I definitely liked how the main fuckos just start making shit up as they go along and to everyone's surprise and dismay it actually works, but it felt like a chore to watch over-all. |
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I ripped through the 1st 2 seasons of Death Note and have been having TiVo grab the subsequent episodes that are airing on Cartoon Network. I loved the series early on because it was complex and had all kinds of twists. But after a pivotal moment in the series (those who have seen it can probably guess which I mean here) it just seems to ...bleh. It was a neat concept that was forced to keep going long after it should have been put to an end. It's just spinning its wheels at this point, but from what I can tell I'm almost at the end. Actually, I think I have 4 episodes waiting on my TiVo. Bleach is pure adolescent male sex/violence fantasy, but it's kind of fun and has some neat character design. I watched a bunch of it, fast forwarding through the boring bits to get to the good bits. It suffers majorly from what I think of as the DBZ syndrome: Padding out episodes with tons of grunting, flexing, and glaring, followed by 10 seconds of actual action. blog | photoblog | PlanetCrap Flickr group
"It was a little hard to tell how bad I was bleeding on account of the salsa" -- Jibble |
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#665 by Ashiran After reading this thread I suddenly realized I watch far, FAR more anime then anyone else on this board. And I thought I was normal. :( No. Anyone that watches a lot of anime is far from normal. Invention is the Green Goblin of Necessary Lemonade.
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I never got my head around the fascination with Judeo-Christian imagery. I guess it's the other side of Western fascination with Shinto rituals etc. If you're really familiar with those elements, it's an interesting way to consider them in the scope of the story. On the flip side, the friend of mine who lent me the series initally ended up hating it because he considered it blasphemous and evil. |
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I found Bleach to be godawfully slow. Japanese emo is bad enough without adding Westernised emo to it. |
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Shows like Bleach are only suited to spawn massive amounts of XXX doujins. Mecha: Gundam 00. This is the first Gundam show that didn't have Teh Drama laid on two meters thick. Fantasy: Claymore (ignore the anime ending, if you liked it go read the manga) and Hellsing OVA (not the series) Supernatural: Baccano and xxxHolic. Semi historical (Japanese history ofc): Shura no Toki and Shigurui. Seinen: Kaiji (crazy realism) and Gun Grave (sci-fi) Shounen: One piece, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Naruto and Bleach. The last two are best without filler episodes and if you have a whole glut of eps ready to watch (so you can skip the DBZ stand around parts). Ecchi: Rosario + Vampire, Kamen no Maid Guy and Umisho Finally, if you have no idea what most of the genres I mentioned here mean, good for you! I sure can't go back anymore. Any game where competence can be measured by the amount of clicks per minute is not a strategy game.
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This conversation has been quite revealing... "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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Seriously, who knew Ashiran was still a teenager? "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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Half of that list isn't exactly teenager material. The other half really is! Any game where competence can be measured by the amount of clicks per minute is not a strategy game.
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If you're watching Ecchi, you're a teenager. |
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Ashiran is teh coolest! =^_^= |
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If you're watching Ecchi, you're a teenager. Keep an open mind. I watch the smurfs!* (*actually, I don't) "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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Huh - I haven't seen a single one of those shows, Ash. I'll maybe give Gundam a try after I finish Gurren Lagann, so I don't get Giant Robot Withdrawal Syndrome. m0nty (#682): =^_^= Kawaii! The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear, in the local language, to read “Go stick your head in a pig”, and are no longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration.
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Banzai! "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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Ashiran is teh coolest! =^_^= <(^_^)> Any game where competence can be measured by the amount of clicks per minute is not a strategy game.
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Hey Ash, how's the girlfriend? "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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GiTS was pure awesome. All of it. Both movies and both series. Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.
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You mean his robot mistress? |
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Akira introduced me to manga and I still love it, despite the fact it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In fact, that disregard for conventional Western narrative is something I found startling and attractive. I've since got bored of that now. The exoticism of Japanese storytelling tropes has worn off and at the end of the day you are left with big robots and people with inexplicably small noses with psychic powers. I also find that a particular crude pseudo-Manga style has saturated the internet to the point where I find it stultifying. It seems to be the default mode for amateurs these days, rather than developing their own style. But all this is just the double-edged sword of popularity - there's still great manga out there. I've been reading stuff by some fellow called Junji Ito recently. It's pulpy horror stuff that reminds me of the early Outer Limits. You can download one of his comics here. Read the panels right to left. And if you don't think this is a work of considerable talent, then you must be a fucking numpty. NSFW. - words and stuff -
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Series was good. Well, it was slow, but ultimately good. But seriously now, the 2nd movie? That one was pretentious shit. It meandered about, and the ending requires too much concentration to follow versus what you get out of it. Reality distortion is an interesting subject, but c'mon the ending was fucking boring. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Re: GitS of course. Wow that's a pretty awesome comic you linked there last Marsh. Hm. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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Marsh Davies (#690): And if you don't think this is a work of considerable talent, then you must be a fucking numpty. NSFW. Weirdo. |
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It's like M.C. Escher's bad dream. "Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
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Wet dream, you mean. |
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Where do I apply for my fucking numpty card? |
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Y'know, the more I've looked at that comic the more awesome it becomes. What a mindbendingly terrific and farout idea. It's an odd mix of a linear and simultaneous timelines coexisting and battling it out within the cartoon framework. Fascinating, really. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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I could never think that shit up. Certainly literally never carry it out to that degree. Now that I can understand idolizing, the sports thing where some guy is good at hitting a ball? Completely mystifying herd behavior. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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You're just jealous because you suck balls. "The best experiences are generative experiences. The best stories are player stories." - Will Wright
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Hm, you can do better than that Bob. "You can produce nuclear reactions directly through ultra high electric field initiated photodisintegration."
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