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All-Female Gaming Events
August 11th 2000, 02:27 CEST by Bobbi The announcement of an All Female Tournament at the upcoming Frag 4, and a recent article on PlanetQuake have stirred up some old issues that have always been the source of many arguments in our community. That being, of course, women, gaming, and all-female events.
What follows is a statement written by Katherine Anna Kang, who founded and ran (all by herself) the first All Female Quake Tournament so many years ago. This statement was written in response to the uproar that is generated every year an event like this is announced. What is it about the issue of women in gaming, FPS's in particular, that draws so much attention and criticism? I find the frenzied state that some people get when discussing the issue a bit strange; it is, after all, only a game. isn't it? I, for one, support All Female gaming events and I'll tell you why. I want more women involved. I want more wives, girlfriends, mothers, etc. to have a chance to get drawn to these games - to see that it's only a game and that it can be incredibly fun. I want to see my male friends spending some quality time with their girlfriends or wives fragging the competition online then meeting up for dinner to discuss the victories of Saturday evening's CTF game. It's fun when both men and women get involved in these games, but the fact of the matter is, not a lot of women are as involved with FPS's as they are with other genres. If people are trying to change that, let them! It's not "our" jobs to get more women involved but when someone makes it "their" job to put together an event to draw more women into this gaming genre, I LIKE it! Nearly 4 years ago, I found myself enjoying games that were considered games made for guys. My friends, most of them males, would tell me that I was probably the only girl who really enjoyed games like DOOM or Quake. I couldn't believe that so I put together an all female Quake tournament. Over 1000 women registered and it was fun! Unfortunately, to my surprise, what had begun as a fun event trying to see how many women would register to play became somewhat of a political scene. The focus of the event was FUN but somewhere along the path, some people lost that focus. There were attacks and criticisms about any desire to put an all female tournament together - the reasons behind the formation of the tournament didn't matter, what mattered to the critics was that it was segregation and therefore wrong. This type of logic doesn't work. Rather than intent, everything gets clumped into it's "BAD" if you do anything that involves the word. "SEGREGATION". So when does segregation become bad? Is it bad to have an office tournament? Or does it become bad when the office tournament is only for the programming staff? Are events that are exclusively for children bad because they are pandering to kids and not adults? Are events for senior citizens wrong and should be abolished because they don't cater to every other age group?
Are rocketry clubs for California residents wrong? Perhaps we should look into the evil segregation of fruits and vegetables at our local grocery stores! Do you follow my point? It's just a game people! There's no "agenda" or the crying out for equality and representation. It's not like it's a political agenda to try to take over the Government. It's a game. There are press tournaments; tournaments for people over 30, and tournaments for clans. I hope there are more all female tournaments and I hope someone will put together tournaments for couples, tournaments for dads and sons, tournaments for moms and daughters. It's simply all about the fun and trying to get more people to enjoy it. It's just a game. -Katherine Anna Kang |
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Here's another point to ponder: Are female only tournaments available because the females can't keep up skill-wise with male players? Or are women afraid to join open tournaments because they think they are under-skilled? -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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Deth: I think (could be wrong) that it's a proven fact that women have better hand-eye coordination than men. |
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<b>#42</b> "Dethstryk" wrote... <QUOTE> I don't recall saying girls *shouldn't* organize their own events, but you also don't see males organizing *male only* events. If that happened, it would immediately be labled sexist and wrong. </QUOTE> Well, this is basically the same argument as, "Why are there African-American clubs; if there was a 'White American' club, people would be up in arms." Here's an analogy. Why are there, say, specific comic book conventions? Shouldn't they just merge with other conventions, say an NRA gun convention? (Guns and comics, whoo hoo!) No, because comic book people feel a kinship with each other and want to be with like-minded people. This is a fairly broad topic, but the problem with sex and race is bred into society; people judge each other and are defined by their sex and/or nationality/color. It's practically unavoidable, as that's the first and most superfical way to judge someone without knowing them. And despite the anonymity of the Internet, that's not going to change any time soon (and whether it WOULD be good for us to be a sort of genderless and raceless society is certainly debatable; it would be pretty damn boring, that's for sure). But when you're a member of a minority group, you tend to want to group together with other people of your minority. That's a very natural thing to do. Women gamers are currently a minority, and as their numbers increase, there will be little need for women-only clans or tournaments. In theory at least. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote> Geeezz PPL, Howz a woman to win if its not an All woman tournie?? you actually think you could be beatin' by a woman?? Sheesh common now... </quote> Ok, I know this is a joke and all - but it's certainly not the first time I've heard this statement, and usually the times I've heard it in the past people have meant it. A lot of people say that girls would never be able to win these large tournaments because they can't beat the guys - the guys are just too good right? The guys just completely rule within the world of everything competetive, girls will just never win! Ok, now I'm making myself laugh. Let's do some simple math people. Let's say that 1 out of 10 FPS gamers is female. Then lets say you host a little LAN party with ten GREAT gamers - one of them female. What are the chances that this one person out of ten is going to win? Sure it's possible but it's more likely that she will do something like place within the top 3 or top 5. This isn't because girls suck. This isn't because guys are better. This is just a matter of common mathematics and people who say that "girls can't win, so they need their own event" just can't come up with a better excuse for their prejudice against all-female tourneys. *steps down off her soapbox* :) |
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<b>#43</b> "Dethstryk" wrote... <QUOTE> Are female only tournaments available because the females can't keep up skill-wise with male players? Or are women afraid to join open tournaments because they think they are under-skilled? </QUOTE> I suspect if there were near-equal number of men and women entrants this wouldn't be an issue. Would you want to be the only woman at one of these tournaments? Talk about being self-conscious... Besides, Happy Cow kicks my sorry ass at Motocross Madness 2 with great regularity. And she's a better Diablo II player than I. And I wouldn't be surprised if she was better at Unreal Tournament as well. Maybe I just suck. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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So how long would an intentionally male only tournament last before they would be forced to admit women? Am I allowed to sign up for this tournament? You know that if I actually cared enough to get lawyers involved you would wind up having to allow me (and every other guy) to enter. ---- There aren't any easy solutions to integrate women into the FPS scene. It's about as easy as trying to get more women to play American Football. Whether that is a good thing or not, it's just a fact of life. By making an all female tournament you help turn it into an "issue" whether that is your intention or not. Why can't it be a tournament that focuses on the female gamer, but allows men to come as well? All the talks of the show would focus on what it means to be a female gamer, the topics that the female gamer is interested, etc. without discriminating by saying "No, because of your sex you are not allowed to play with us". This way you have your female tournament, but are also working towards integration of both genders in the game, not seperation. The current tournaments are certainly ones with a focus on the male gamer point of view, but female gamers are allowed to come. There would be arms up in an instant if any tournament intentionally tried to not allow females to attend. Make a female oriented tournament, but don't alienate someone because they are a guy. Maybe that guy is just there to gawk at the girls (Though forgive my crudeness, a large chunk of those girls are not gawking material, flame me all you like. However fair is fair, neither are the guys), but maybe you will also find that segment of the male community who actually does enjoy the concept of a balanced playing field. Of course, just like a female gamer who attents a male oriented tournament is seen as doing "boy things", the guy will have to put up with doing "girl things" which is MUCH more difficult for most guys to get over. As for the examples Anna lists above: You are going to be hard pressed to find a father son tournmant that won't allow a mother daughter, mother son, father daughter, uncle son, etc. combo enter. The spirit of the tournament is still there, even if they allow someone who doesn't fit in the group perfectly to feel welcome. Same goes for a California based club, etc. The only time you won't find this is if the logistics of it simply don't work (office tournaments held in an office on office property, the person organizing it has to keep a tight check on who plays, etc). See that's what it boils down to. Normal tournaments have never intentionally said "Female gamers are not welcome here". Female gamers may not *feel* welcome because the guys are being guys, but they are still welcome. However an all female tournament is outright saying "Male gamers are not welcome". Instead of organizing a female only tournament, why not work just as hard organizing to make a large showing of female gamers at the next QuakeCon. Instead of 1000 female gamers for their own event, why not say "Let's try to get 1000 female gamers for QCon 2001!!!". That seems like a FAR more productive goal and one that actually works towards integrating woment and men gamers. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>Apache wrote in post #44:</b> <quote>Deth: I think (could be wrong) that it's a proven fact that women have better hand-eye coordination than men. </quote> Hell, I'd believe it. I think of women as better than men anyway. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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The main meat of my post above is in the last paragraph or two, in case anybody skims it and doesn't really get it. It helps answer crash's question as well. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>Steve Bauman wrote in post #45:</b> <quote>But when you're a member of a minority group, you tend to want to group together with other people of your minority. That's a very natural thing to do. Women gamers are currently a minority, and as their numbers increase, there will be little need for women-only clans or tournaments. </quote> True, but no one is really addressing my point that male games can actually be turning off female gamers from growing. I agree with you %100, Steve. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<quote>Well, this is basically the same argument as, "Why are there African-American clubs; if there was a 'White American' club, people would be up in arms." Here's an analogy. Why are there, say, specific comic book conventions? Shouldn't they just merge with other conventions, say an NRA gun convention? (Guns and comics, whoo hoo!) No, because comic book people feel a kinship with each other and want to be with like-minded people.</quote> Has a comic book convention ever told a person who was a member of NRA that they couldn't attend? No. That is they key difference between an all female tournament, and a tournament designed to attract a certain audience. One is saying certain people can't attend, one is saying certain people should attend. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>Steve Bauman wrote in post #47:</b> <quote>Besides, Happy Cow kicks my sorry ass at Motocross Madness 2 with great regularity. And she's a better Diablo II player than I. And I wouldn't be surprised if she was better at Unreal Tournament as well. </quote> The term "women gamers" is pretty much a non-existant term where I live, but from what I've heard, female gamers are MUCH better at role-playing type games than men. I think this is pretty much true, because I've played some AD&D with some girls before and they do a LOT better than most male gamers. (None of that "I go the bar and get laid" crap.) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#45</b>, Steve Bauman: <QUOTE> Here's an analogy. Why are there, say, specific comic book conventions? Shouldn't they just merge with other conventions, say an NRA gun convention? (Guns and comics, whoo hoo!) No, because comic book people feel a kinship with each other and want to be with like-minded people. </QUOTE> That's not a like-for-like analogy. A closer analogy would be to talk about two comic book conventions -- one for men, one for women. Personally, what I find most interesting about this topic is the fact that Anna felt it was important enough to write about, but throughout the topic she dismissed opposing views with "it's just a game". Anna: Either it's important, or it isn't. If it's important enough to write about, and to ask people to discuss and form opinions on, then why is it suddenly "just a game" when people disagree with your view? Apart from that, I don't have much of an opinion on the issue itself. Yes, I agree with the people who say women-only events are basically sexist, but it's not something that bothers me. Just don't complain when someone starts a male-only gaming event, okay? Oh, and the Stevie Case joke someone made (and the response to it). The sad thing is, most women would probably laugh at a joke like that; it's only gagging-for-a-shagging men and boys that act all high-and-mighty about it. There are few things more pathetic than men saying what they <i>think</i> a woman wants to hear. |
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<b>#52</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote... <QUOTE> Has a comic book convention ever told a person who was a member of NRA that they couldn't attend? </QUOTE> Does the women's tournament say men can't attend or enter? (I honestly don't know.) If men can attend, then the analogy becomes a comic book convention may not allow a gun seller to display their wares like they would in a gun show. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I'd really like to be in a female-dominated tournament of ANY game, Charlie, just to prove some kind of archaic point. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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Anyone who tries to make any kind of serious point about Stevie Case is off of their rockers.. every female I know who I've told them about KillCreek just gets disgusted. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#51</b> "Dethstryk" wrote... <QUOTE> True, but no one is really addressing my point that male games can actually be turning off female gamers from growing. I agree with you %100, Steve. </QUOTE> Well, I doubt anyone disagrees that male gamers ARE turning off female gamers. Hell, they pretty much alienate me. Well, actually dudes in general alienate me; all of my close friends are women. But gamers, as a whole, are very wary of outsiders entering their little world, be they men or women. They want to be accepted by society, but they want to remain separate from society, in their own little world where they are gods. Oh, and I'm well aware that was a ludicrous generalization, so take it for what it's worth. Which is probably nothing. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Steve and Charlie are women, can they play? ;) |
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<quote>Does the women's tournament say men can't attend or enter? (I honestly don't know.)</quote> I don't know, that's why I asked at the start of my first post. I think so though, if not then it is a moot point and I'm all for the tournament (though I still believe that organizing a large showing of women at the next normal tournament is FAR more productive for their "cause"). <quote>If men can attend, then the analogy becomes a comic book convention may not allow a gun seller to display their wares like they would in a gun show.</quote> That is true of any show though. You aren't going to see Ford showing off their new cars at a boat show. However, people from Ford CAN still attend and be allowed to participate in the event. You don't come to QuakeCon or the like to have a Star Wars convention. Andy already touched on this better than I though so I'll stop. Hopefully you get our drift. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>#54</b> "Andy" wrote... <QUOTE> That's not a like-for-like analogy. A closer analogy would be to talk about two comic book conventions -- one for men, one for women. </QUOTE> I tend to agree (I was just throwing that out there), but it does depends on whether we're talking about men being able to participate versus attend. Can a dude go watch the tournament? --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#48</b>, Charlie Wiederhold: <QUOTE> So how long would an intentionally male only tournament last before they would be forced to admit women? Am I allowed to sign up for this tournament? You know that if I actually cared enough to get lawyers involved you would wind up having to allow me (and every other guy) to enter. </QUOTE> Heh, not in the UK they wouldn't. There are probably many examples that other people could give about this, but here's the one that has always stuck in my mind: A few years back, there had been a lot of stories in the press about woman applying for traditionally male-only jobs, being rejected, taking the company to court and winning compensation. It had got to the stage that some companies were scared NOT to give a job to a woman, in case she sued, even when she wasn't right for the job. Then there was a story about a man who applied for a job at a factory that made lingerie. He was rejected, and told outright that the company didn't want to hire a man to work in that factory. He took the company to an industrial tribunal, and the tribunal ruled that the company's reason for rejecting him were fair. |
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<b>#60</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote... <QUOTE> That is true of any show though. You aren't going to see Ford showing off their new cars at a boat show. However, people from Ford CAN still attend and be allowed to participate in the event. </QUOTE> Not if you define "participation" as showing their new cars at a boat show. I know, my analogy sucked, but I'm just bored right now. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Can a dude go watch the tournament?</quote> Why should he even not be allowed to participate Steve? If I go to a tournament I want to play. If I go to a comic book convention, I want to buy comic books (I've never wanted to do either, but that's beside the point). <quote>Steve and Charlie are women, can they play? ;)</quote> "I am not a woman in real life, but I play one on TV!" Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>#63</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote... <QUOTE>Not if you define "participation" as showing their new cars at a boat show. I know, my analogy sucked, but I'm just bored right now. </QUOTE> Well you'd normaly see a lot of their new trucks and SUVs at a boat show, is small numbers mind you. It also not uncommon to see RV's on display. -- None-1a. Sure the spelling looks stupid, but how stupid do you look, after all your only argument is that I'm spelling poorly.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Steve Bauman wrote in post #58:</b> <quote>Oh, and I'm well aware that was a ludicrous generalization, so take it for what it's worth. Which is probably nothing. </quote> No, what you said makes perfect sense. You're completely right about the "little world" that gamers have, but it's been getting better with the advent of the 'net. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#64</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote... <QUOTE> Why should he even not be allowed to participate Steve? If I go to a tournament I want to play. If I go to a comic book convention, I want to buy comic books (I've never wanted to do either, but that's beside the point). </QUOTE> Because that's the rules they set for entry. Should Thresh be allowed to enter a "beginners" tournament? Should I be allowed to participate in a seniors golf tornament? Should I be allowed to participate in the Special Olympics? I'm just full of bad analogies tonight. Pick them apart at your leisure... --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I have, and probably always will, get a lot of flak for my opinions on how females act in the gaming community. For starters, i'm female, and I hate it. (Ooh, people just lowered an eyebrow at the screen) Yeah, so what. Computer games are aimed more at guys than girls. That's because in general, computer games, especially the FPS types are the kind of things guys like to do. It's not some malicious conspiracy against females to keep them outta games. Computer games just aren't a mainstream female activity. Making Barbie's Dress Up Studio in a sorry attempt to get women more interested in games isn't going to get anywhere either. The fact of the matter, and my point is, that guys like shooting bad guys on their screen more than females do. (girls, or at least the ones I know, seem to be much happier fawning over the backstreet boys, or walking around a mall.) To each his own. Some things work better for some demographics than others. I've been in the internet gaming scene since early '98, so I wasn't around for the early stages, but I've seen a good deal of the 'community.' I've NEVER had any of the horror-story experiences I've heard all-girl clans and websites and such quote. If my being female even came up in a game, it didn't ever matter. The worst thing that happens is that I get hit on. I ignore it, and they stop. I blame it mostly on inavailability, more than anything. The women gamers want to be treated equally, and they want to be included and welcomed open-armed into the gaming community, but they don't want to accept the community for what it is. A buncha guys, being well, guys. If you wanna be a gamer, then be a gamer. Don't start trying to stick doilies under our mice, or worrying about if someone makes a crude joke. Wanna fit in? Wanna be accepted and be a part of the community, then don't hold all-women gaming tournaments, don't form all-girl clans, and seek vengeance upon innocent passer-by guys in some kinda PMS-wrath-driven holy war. (Note: The above, being prettymuch an extreme view of women gamers, it's not all that rare, either. It's just the description from my caustic wit to prove my point.) And if you do, don't complain about any negative feedback you get. There's always a critic for everything, no matter what you do, so shrug it off. Getting upset and further stirring up the dust is not going to make the predominantly male gaming community welcome you, open arms. Doesn't bother me in the least if they want to have a Frag4, but you won't find me there. I'll gladly haul my tomboyish self over and hang out with the guys. They've always been more fun, anyway. I'm not trying to exclude women from gaming; I'd have to kick myself out on the same technicality. I just wish that they could just join in and go with the flow, instead of raising hell, and drawing attention to themselves. For the most part, guys seem quite happy to have girl-gamers around. See several of the above replies for reference. Anyone up for some TFC? |
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I don't see why everyone is bitching because of a female tournament. First, believe or not, female gamers isn't a common thing. Been playing since QuakeWorld (5 years), and I only faced off with 2 self-claimed female gamers. I really don't see much problem with female only tournaments, so it makes you feel 'special' aka harassed, but lets face it, its a rare thing for a butch of females to get a gathering and frag each other, correct? Next we will be having teen tournaments, I am 16 (shocked?) and I would love to face other people my age. I already played some LAN tournaments with a butch of adults in the Q3 Test days (100 bucks for me), and it wasn't that great. It feels so aliented being the 'few' that plays computer games. This is the same problem with females, not a lot of them do play FPS, so make a tournament for a 'gathering' for competation <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Yeah, so what. Computer games are aimed more at guys than girls.</quote> I think <b>Duke Nukem</b> would fall into this catagory, don't you? |
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<b>#69</b> "BloodKnight" wrote... <QUOTE> its a rare thing for a <b>butch/<b> of females to get a gathering and frag each other, correct? </QUOTE> Ooh, now there's a loaded typo for this topic... --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Steve Bauman</b> (#71): <QUOTE> <quote>its a rare thing for a <B>butch/<B> of females to get a gathering and frag each other, correct? </quote> Ooh, now there's a loaded typo for this topic... </B></B></QUOTE> I meant in LAN parties, not organized competation. I was at GamesCon last year, and about 100 people came in, and not one, not even ONE female I have seen there at all. Only females I seen where the staff for '10 bucks please' <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Because that's the rules they set for entry. Should Thresh be allowed to enter a "beginners" tournament? Should I be allowed to participate in a seniors golf tornament? Should I be allowed to participate in the Special Olympics?</quote> I assume by your next sentence you already know the problems with this one, so I'll leave it for the class to discuss later. ;) ---- Nice post Kami. The next major online game I play I am going to log all of the text I get and post it so people can compare and contrast the response a person gets being a male versus a female. I have never had the experiences described either and I spent quite a few months between about three different female names while playing Team Fortress for Quake 1. I've been using only male names for a while now (year and a half?) but I'm sure I'll go back to female names again for the hell of it at some point. ---- My question to Anna Kang: Why is the time and effort (and money!!) that is being spent to organize an all female tournament not being spent instead to organize getting those same females to group together and show up in force at FRAG 4 of QCon 2001? Surely you can see how that is more towards your "goal" of getting the women gamers to attend these events and to have men and women sharing time playing together. Charlie Wiederhold |
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<b>#68</b> "Kami" wrote... <QUOTE> For starters, i'm female, and I hate it. (Ooh, people just lowered an eyebrow at the screen) </QUOTE> Wow, that's a heavy burden to carry around... being a man ain't that great from what I hear. Hey, let's all kill ourselves! Whee! --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#72</b> "BloodKnight" wrote... <QUOTE> <quote>its a rare thing for a <B>butch</B> of females to get a gathering and frag each other, correct? </quote> I meant in LAN parties, not organized competation. I was at GamesCon last year, and about 100 people came in, and not one, not even ONE female I have seen there at all. Only females I seen where the staff for '10 bucks please' </QUOTE> The typo (and bolded) word should have been "butch" instead of what I assume you meant "bunch." Butch females... ah nevermind. --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Steve Bauman</b> (#75): <QUOTE> <quote> <quote>its a rare thing for a <B>butch</B> of females to get a gathering and frag each other, correct? </quote> I meant in LAN parties, not organized competation. I was at GamesCon last year, and about 100 people came in, and not one, not even ONE female I have seen there at all. Only females I seen where the staff for '10 bucks please' </quote> The typo (and bolded) word should have been "butch" instead of what I assume you meant "bunch." Butch females... ah nevermind. </QUOTE> Shit, you confused me with the / magic <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#29</b> "Katherine Anna Kang" wrote... <QUOTE>why get your panties all up in a wad about it? </QUOTE> Welcome back Katherine Anna Kang!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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The idea that men and women should never be treated as if they were different is silly. The idea that people shouldn't have celebrations about their differences, whether they are race or gender, is idiotic. I'd like to see what Jason Hall has to say about this, because I have a feeling its largely white men who are saying its a bad idea. I look around and I don't see very little equality among blacks and whites and only a little bit more equality among women and men. We still have a long way to go. I don't see anything wrong with empowering women as much as possible. The same people who say women shouldn't have their own tournament are the same people who say its okay for game marketing to primarily target men. Women's sufferage wasn't that long ago and now it seems like everybody wants to forget it existed. |
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I just noticed something with the quote of the nanosecond, what the fuck is with them? <quote>"windows." -- by: Bad_CRC </QUOTE> WTF? I guess this will get quoted penis ok now I should see up in the cycle of quotes any day now :) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I mean, I look around and I see very little. Not don't see. |
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*cough* Correction time: Whereas I'm not entirely impressed at being female, I don't hate it either. The "I hate it" was aimed at the all-female clans and events. |
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#78 My thoughts exactly <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Heh, not in the UK they wouldn't. There are probably many examples that other people could give about this, but here's the one that has always stuck in my mind: Then there was a story about a man who applied for a job at a factory that made lingerie. He was rejected, and told outright that the company didn't want to hire a man to work in that factory. He took the company to an industrial tribunal, and the tribunal ruled that the company's reason for rejecting him were fair.</quote> Yes, there are examples where it is better to not allow males to work in a certain place, and vice versa. There are valid reasons for division in many sports. However, in this case, there is no true fair reason to give on why a man should not be allowed to play in the tournament other than segregation. It is no different than not allowing someone to play because they are black, asian, crippled, deaf, etc. Charlie Wiederhold |
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I think the issue of game marketing and game design will only really be answered when more women get into the game development industry. I've only met two or three women in person who have worked in the industry. Without their perspective and influence, men will continue to design games they want to play. Unfortunately, its a bit of a catch 22. Women aren't going to be attracted to an industry that crafts a product they aren't interested in working with. |
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<b>Charlie Wiederhold</b> (#83): <QUOTE>It is no different than not allowing someone to play because they are black, asian, crippled, deaf, etc. </QUOTE> DEAF? Thats a bit extreme, good luck playing most games today, since a lot of them need sound to play (like CCTF) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#83</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote... <QUOTE> However, in this case, there is no true fair reason to give on why a man should not be allowed to play in the tournament other than segregation. It is no different than not allowing someone to play because they are black, asian, crippled, deaf, etc. </QUOTE> So you'd expressed this same outrage at a male-only tournament? --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Brandon: Women are not being told they can't attend though. No woman has been turned away from any tournament as far as I know. There is a <b>big</b> difference between women not being allowed to get certain jobs, vote, etc and feeling uncomfortable because currently there are more guys who attend these tournaments. This is not an example of women's sufferage and to try to apply it to that is downright insulting to women who actually had to fight through real women's sufferage problems. Charlie Wiederhold |
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Great, time to sleep again. This is going to be another PC classic I believe <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#81</b> "Kami" wrote... <QUOTE> Whereas I'm not entirely impressed at being female, I don't hate it either. The "I hate it" was aimed at the all-female clans and events. </QUOTE> I figured as much, but I thought the self-loathing statement was too good to pass up... --- "My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<quote>Women's sufferage wasn't that long ago and now it seems like everybody wants to forget it existed.</quote> Not forget that it existed, but we need to forget that it is an issue. Because it no longer is an issue. I honestly don't feel in any way that women are being treated unfairly any longer. This is not to say that 100% of the time women get treated fairly. I'm glad that I have equal rights; that I can vote and drive, and get paid the same as I guy. I'm glad brave people in history fought for that for me. I just don't want now to instead of being treated poorly, be mollycoddled because I'm female. Sometimes equal opportunity goes too far the other way. I certainly wouldn't want to be a white male applying for a McDonald's job, wondering if I'll not get it because some manager is afraid to hire me, in the face of some angry minority all too happy to scream discrimination and sue him blind if they don't get the job. |
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BloodKnight, that choice should be left up to the deaf person and his team though, don't you think? There are a good number of deaf people who do play these games and do very well (there was a recent thread on the 3DR forums where some of the deaf players came out of the woodwork and described their experiences). ---- Steve - I would downright mortified if someone tried to organize a male only tournament. Go ahead and try to organize one and I'll be on your back in an instant. Charlie Wiederhold |
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Skipped down after 10 posts or so, so someone might've said this already. Where's the all male gaming events? Or for that matter, all white tv channel? Have you ever heard of BET (Black Entertainment Television)? Where is WET? Now, before you start calling me a Klan member and all, here's something you should know. I'm not white. I'm also not black. I'm a Namdhari Sikh. If you know what that means, pat yourself on your back, because in Rochester, MN, my family is the only Namdhari family. So, you can say that I'm quite a minority. I really hate it when any minority gets their own special things (including myself), and that goes for race, gender and anything else. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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