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Rules of Engagement, Lesson #1 -- Say Nothing
August 10th 2000, 03:55 CEST by andy Diablo II and The Patch That People Hate. What's going on? You want to be kept informed, I know you do. You've got questions that you want to ask, and baby you know I want to get those answers for you! And I nearly managed it too... But you see, Blizzard is one of those game companies that still insists on locking its developers away in a dark room and putting a load of PR people out front to defend them against the perceived evils of journalism. And so, it is my sad news to report that despite the best efforts of your friends at the Planet o' Crap, we've been defeated by the lovely Ms Debra Osborne of Havas Interactive, Blizzard's parent company. For the curious, it went like this...
And that, my friends, is where the curtain closes. Apparently the questions were passed on to the QA team as promised, answered, handed back to Debra, and then, for some unexplained reason, she was asked not to send them to me yet. Will she send them? Did she ever intend to send them? Were they ever answered? Did she even pass them on to the QA team in the first place? Believe whatever makes you happy, folks! |
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Topic: Rules of Engagement, Lesson #1 -- Say Nothing
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Post <b>#150</b> by Whisp: <QUOTE><i> I read somewhere one of the game designers had been quoted as saying that CE was the best skill in the game. Keep in mind that this was from BEFORE any patches were made, in one of the first necro play guides on the net.</i></QUOTE> It's on Blizzard's own site, www.battle.net/diablo2. Obviously, they knew that CE is too powerfull even before they shipped. During an open betatest, CE was called a skill of choice of the necros who played it. Something strange is going on inside Blizzard. Here's the quote from Blizzard's site: <quote>If you want to make a big mess, Corpse Explosion is the skill for you. Once dubbed "The Best Skill of All Time" by Blizzard Employees, Corpse Explosion is a favorite among many. Corpse Explosion is great for clearing out crowds of monsters very quickly. All you need to destroy large groups monsters is a body, and to lead that group of monster near that body. Explode the corpse to create a new corpse, continue to use Corpse Explosion until there is nothing left.</quote> <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Yep PiRaMidA, that's the quote I saw. Here's something else to think about: <QUOTE>For those who haven’t heard of it, it’s quite simple. Because of it’s special properties, this golem heals itself when he deals damage. IM, Iron maiden, is a curse that makes monsters take damage when they deal a successful melee attack against anything. The catch is that due to how it’s coded, the blood golem doesn’t really get healed on the damage he deals but on the damage his foes take. In the end, the damage that is inflicted by Iron maiden counts as damage dealt by the golem and the golem, as well as yourself, gets healed –a lot- because of that, making your golem invincible and you pretty much at the same time, against melee monsters only. The catch is this : <b>this is a bug, and a Blizzard employee known as BrockLanders, who occasionally visits Dii.net IRC chatroom, have unofficially confirmed that this would be corrected in a future patch, perhaps as early as 1.03.</b> So, I recommend not to build your character or your strategies based on this trick. By using it too often, you’ll miss the opportunity to learn to use the other abilities of your character and in the end once this will be taken away, you will suck. As usual, you are the last judge and if you want to exploit this as long as you can, feel free. </QUOTE>from the <a href="http://www.diabloii.net/strategy/zenegan-necro/pg2.shtml#Summoning Tree">necro guide</a> on the Diablo 2 Strategy Compendium (emphasis added). and compare to this: <QUOTE>Necromancer Skills - Blood Golem/Iron Maiden Combo: It appears that the preponderance of evidence points to no changes in the "bug" of this Skill combination, which allows Blood Golems to heal with the application of Iron Maiden.</QUOTE>from the <a href="http://www.diabloii.net/files/patch-103-analysis.htm">Patch V1.03 Analysis</a> page. To summarize - Blizzard "fixed" CE, which worked exactly as intended (if more effectively than planned), but didn't fix the BG/IM combo, which they have admitted really is a bug (they never intended the blood golems to gain life from IM, only its attacks). -Whisp |
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point worked on != designed. Warren was mainly a level designer, _his_ levels, notably the bowels (hence the running jokes) of Shadar Logoth were amongst the best in the game. its a bit like having a go a Paul steed, because of the way curved surfaces are implemented in the q3 engine. now that youve been educated to the point where you can take your foot out of your mouth, DO try and make valid points. Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Post <b>#152</b> by Whisp: <QUOTE><i> To summarize - Blizzard "fixed" CE, which worked exactly as intended (if more effectively than planned), but didn't fix the BG/IM combo, which they have admitted really is a bug (they never intended the blood golems to gain life from IM, only its attacks). </i></QUOTE> Yup, a known bug. See, that just confirms that this patch is a quickie hack to prevent people from reaching level 99 too soon. You can't gain exp fast with BG/IM, though it is an obvious bug. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>EvilAsh</b> (#147): <QUOTE>Now this is where I get nasty.. Warren you worked on WOT.. There are many Design Issues in that Game that should have been handled better.. I don't think anyone Needs to examine you. </QUOTE> No they shouldn't ... I wasn't the designer. <QUOTE>Its amazing... How many million sellers have you had Warren... Isn't it a little egotistical to be criticizing Blizzard when you haven't created products Better then they have? </QUOTE> WTF? What does WOT's success have to do with this "conversation"? <QUOTE>That's the other issue with WOT it should have been an RPG. Instead it was an Action game! </QUOTE> Uh hmm. Robert Jordan was originally pitched an RPG ... he turned it down. He doesn't want his world turned into an RPG. So I guess Legend is to blame. <QUOTE>That's why many WOT fans were disappointed because they Expected better and they deserved better. </QUOTE> Since we're totally off the track now and getting into personal bullshit, I'll just bail on this conversation. Nice trolling with you! -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I Apologize for the Designer crack..But your crack on Blizzard questioning there DEsign Team..wasn't nice either..Doesn't feel good on the receiving end does it? I mean you went so far as to insinuate that these people need to get fired because they balanced a Spell after the game was shipped. Talk about being bitchy. I mean how many people screamed at WOT's D3d issues and screamed that they should be removed for working on games because of it? Don't your comments come off just as harsh as mine? Let me tell ya something when your screaming for someone's head over a game.. That's when the issues of reality need to come into play. Now to the comments about CE. And how a Blizzard employee advocated and how strategy guides all loved it...and All recommended it. I know I read strategy guides on the Necro.. Guess what? I Didn't go by them... There is a reason so many skills are available. I am going to describe something my friend did.. He is a sorceress..And recently He was having fun with Meteor Storm.. But he relealized that it was taking huge amounts of mana to clear large groups of monsters. Then he came upon a different strategy. He started using ice bolts to freeze the monsters momentarily.. Then he hit his meteor storm key and just as the monsters were thawing they would get hit. And shatter. This combination he found worked fantastic.. and It used less mana then just going all out with one Spell. This creative combination works.. and it doesn't under-balance the game... Do you think this is the type of creativity Blizzard was looking for? Or do you think they were looking for people to use one spell constantly.. And as for the comment as to Spells maxing at 20.. Question... What LEvel do you think the person's character would be when they were able to master one spell? 35-40? How about 50+. Yes of course they would be able to use these other spells... This is why When people my character is wasted.. Well. IF they are level 40 and they 50% to one spell.. Guess what?? They can continue to level... And master other spells.. And guess what? Their Character is not wasted!! This why folks screaming bloody are overeacting Totally. |
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<b>EvilAsh</b> (#156): <QUOTE>I Apologize for the Designer crack..But your crack on Blizzard questioning there DEsign Team..wasn't nice either..Doesn't feel good on the receiving end does it? </QUOTE> *sigh* How am I on the receiving end? Read slowly : I WAS NOT THE DESIGNER. For some reason you chose to pull WOT out of thin air and say that because that didn't sell millions of copies, I'm not allowed to form an opinion of Blizzard's actions. Insanity. <QUOTE>I mean you went so far as to insinuate that these people need to get fired because they balanced a Spell after the game was shipped. </QUOTE> I did? Let's take a reading lesson ... what I said was "<i>That's wrong and should ring alarm bells in any developers head that maybe the design team for that game needs to be examined.</i>". Yeah, I can see where I said people should get fired. Good call! <QUOTE>Talk about being bitchy. I mean how many people screamed at WOT's D3d issues and screamed that they should be removed for working on games because of it? Don't your comments come off just as harsh as mine? Let me tell ya something when your screaming for someone's head over a game.. That's when the issues of reality need to come into play. </QUOTE> Ugh. Go away ... *plonk* Ahhh, that's better ... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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The Design Team needs to be examined? What The Fuck did you mean by that ? That they need their heads examined? Maybe you need to be examined....Its obvious your So Angered by this patch that you can't get over it.. So much so you suggest that the designers at Blizzard might need to be examined? Doesn't sound like a positive comment to me. ****** EvilAsh Professional Head Examiner. |
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Post <b>#156</b> by EvilAsh: <QUOTE><i> Well. IF they are level 40 and they 50% to one spell.. Guess what?? They can continue to level... And master other spells.. And guess what? Their Character is not wasted!! </i></QUOTE> You really have to learn more about the game. Building you character around a skill is not only putting 20 skill points to it, it's also complementary skills you develop, stats points you allocate, and equipment you have. When you are at level 50, it is too late to change your main strategy. To get extra skill points you'd need at least to level up, and you don't have a slightest clue how impossible it is to level up at Clvl 50 when your main strategy is wasted. Then again, it seems you don't have a slightest clue about many other things as well.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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crash, one question - is GamerX your C|Net pseudo? Or is it a collective name for your game writers? Just thought that he expresses thoughts very similar to yours. Thanks ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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EvilAsh: Whisp already pointed it out to you, and you have said it yourself... Corpse Explosion isn't as overpowered as people liked to think. It is *great* for group fighting, but it is worthless against one creature, especially a unique who is alone or a boss. That is the weakness of the spell. That is how all skills are designed. They are good for one thing, not good for another. A powered up meteor shower or inferno is *wonderful* for boss fights but pretty much worthless against hordes of enemies or quick moving enemies compared to other skills. I was able to walk up to a boss and simply rip him to shreds with my inferno spell, even though the rest of the group had to beat on it for a lot longer. The only reason it was taken out was because Blizzard felt people were leveling too fast for their tastes because of the ability for CE to take down lots of enemies quickly. That is always always always a bad reason to change something. Especially if they continue to make these types of changes. Why is the rate at which someone gains levels an issue? Because of the competition the ladder creates. If you ask me the worst thing they ever added was the ladder. There is always going to be one or two classes that level faster than the others (no matter *WHAT* you do balance wise except make them all identical). <b>What would have been much smarter would have been to create a ladder for each class.</b> Hello world! Charlie Wiederhold |
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Post <b>#161</b> by Charlie Wiederhold: <QUOTE><i> <B>What would have been much smarter would have been to create a ladder for each class.</B> Hello world! </i></QUOTE> True, but it would keep the problem of first twenty ladder positions at level 99. Which means, no first place (no more exp gains), people lose interest in competing for the first place, and ladders as Blizzard wants them to be become a waste of code. And that's why I believe paladins would get thorns "balanced" in one of the next patches (they allow to gain exp proportional to how many people there are in the game, with the help of conversion. I hear EvilAshes around the world screaming "unfair").<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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What happens to paladins isn't affecting me.. And hasn't bothered me.. Umm.. Here is a question How in the world can one Customize their use of ITems in D2 to center around one spell? What your going to only get Wands that have +3 to ce? that's it? If thats the case you trying to use as an example thats really weak. IF your level 40 and you can level like 20 more times.. OF course you can allocate those skills around to different one's. And as to the weak argument that it takes a long while to get to level 50... I would sure hope so.. It would be really out of whack if within 3 days of playing you were at level 50.. kind of takes the FUN out of it. Especially when its too easy. As far as the ladder argument.. I Could give a rat's ass .. I am more impressed with reading about people who beat the game hardcore on hell setting. That impressed me more. This isn't Unreal Tournament ya know.. IF they really wanted to make the game so Competitive as you think they are worried about it... They could have a PK ladder and tally the amount of wins and losses. But you don't see Blizzard doing that. HAs Blizzard officially State that they scaled back CE because of the Ladder? IF they have said this.. the argument is over.. and I agree thats A stupid Friggin REASON. IF they haven't said this.. then Assuming that to be true is just as stupid. |
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EvilAsh: The topic is about Blizzard making adjustments to Corpse Explosion and if it is something they should or should not do (and what their reasons for doing this are). Go back to that topic and stop randomly wandering around talking about *god knows what*. <quote>I would sure hope so.. It would be really out of whack if within 3 days of playing you were at level 50.. kind of takes the FUN out of it. Especially when its too easy.</quote> That's up to the player though and how they play the game. The players who are flying up the ladders are *trying* to go fast. They aren't concerned with the game being challenging, they are trying to get to the top as soon as possible. They are going to do this no matter what you do. Blizzard is an <b>outright FUCKUP</b> if they try to cater the game to these people. Ignore those guys, there are other people who are not devoting 20 hours a day to Diablo 2. The slower you make it for the top players, you suddenly make it THAT much slower for the average players and heaven help the guys who can only put in a couple hours a week. <quote>HAs Blizzard officially State that they scaled back CE because of the Ladder?</quote> They cut it back because Necros were able to gain experience too quickly with it. The only reason this would be a problem *now* and not during the 4 years they developed the game is because of their vision of how fast people should be going (the ladder is a very important aspect of this). Let me ask you this: Why was it not a problem in Diablo 1 that the classes leveled at different rates there? ---- Pirmida - I think ladders are stupid for Diablo 2 and don't think they should have been added. However, if they feel the need for them, the should seperate them out into classes so that you can compete with your fellow classmates. You can still see how you fare against *everbody* but your competition is against other people who have a similar skill set (much like any sport). Charlie Wiederhold |
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Charlie your assuming and you know what happens when you assume.. You Make An ASS out of yourself when the truth is revealed later. :) |
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Post <b>#164</b> by Charlie Wiederhold: <quote><i>I think ladders are stupid for Diablo 2 and don't think they should have been added. However, if they feel the need for them, the should seperate them out into classes so that you can compete with your fellow classmates. You can still see how you fare against *everbody* but your competition is against other people who have a similar skill set (much like any sport). </i></QUOTE> That's true, of course. By the way, they have class-based ladders, sort of. You can have different views on ladders, one of them hardcore, and the other is class based. The default is all classes together, but you can see how you match against others in your class. What I was saying is that it does not help cut down exp gain for the powerfull classes, hence the patch... Post <b>#165</b> by EvilAsh Assuming is the only thing left when Blizzard does not give any official reasons why. You know, when you have enough facts you can safely assume some things. Fact1 - ladder was coming to an end. Fact2 - exp gain for higher levels was dramatically cut, to 1/5 of what it was before. Fact3 - fastest exp gaining skills were nerfed, even though Blizzard knew it would generate a lot of negative feedback. Fact4 - obvious bugs and loopholes in skills which don't allow fast exp growth but are unbalanced (BG/IM) were not fixed. You have something to say about those facts? Give them some thought, it is as clear as it can be. If Blizzard wanted to keep ladders alive for another year, the only thing they could do was a 1.03 patch as we know it. If Blizzard simply wanted to balance the game, there were many much better ways. Post <b>#163</b> by EvilAsh Items you use depend on the skills you base your characters upon. If you use mana-critical skills, you collect wyrm's equipment. If you are in for a close combat often, you try to get higher DC and hitpoints +. If you use bow most of the time, you seek items with AR boosts. Of course, at level 34 you just put on whatever you find. Once again, I was talking about higher level chars who can choose what to wear and who collect their items for quite some time. This is quite irrelevant to the discussion though, just one more reason why nerfing sucks.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Andy, no update on the topic? Still very interested in those answers...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#167</b>, PiRaMidA: <QUOTE> Andy, no update on the topic? Still very interested in those answers... </QUOTE> I'm going to send Debra another note today to ask what's happening. |
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Ooh, apparently we should be getting those answers tomorrow... ;-) |
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Post <b>#169</b> by Andy: <QUOTE><i> Ooh, apparently we should be getting those answers tomorrow... ;-) </i></QUOTE> Cool news, thanks! It better be something good ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#170</b>, PiRaMidA: <QUOTE> It better be something good ;) </QUOTE> It better be <i>something</i>... |
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Post <b>#171</b> by Andy: <QUOTE><i> It better be <I>something</I>... </i></QUOTE> well, I guess you were right ;(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Still no answer to the questions? Agh...seems to be they are pulling the old "Ha ha, look at these mortals squirm. Should we decide to grace them with our godly presence, we'll handle their questions with a paragraph that will say no comment so off! Ho ho ho.." and I still can't believe EvilAsh argued. Did you see his last post? Man alive... |
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u knwo what sux abouthte patch most, i spend my time and effort to go on the net download the crakcs and the no key check for b net , then i go on and it automatically patches me then i gotta go find a whole new set of cracks, daym man. they shouldnt automatically patch it should be only if u download it from there site. blizzard has enough money already they dont need my little 40 bucks, shesh i gottapay my rent here |
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fukin guys |
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What? guy, could you please speak in English? |
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<b>Guido wrote in post #176:</b> <quote>What? guy, could you please speak in English? </quote> I think that was his best shot at it, bud. ;) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#174</b> "guy" <QUOTE> u knwo what sux abouthte patch most, i spend my time and effort to go on the net download the crakcs and the no key check for b net , then i go on and it automatically patches me then i gotta go find a whole new set of cracks, daym man. they shouldnt automatically patch it should be only if u download it from there site. blizzard has enough money already they dont need my little 40 bucks, shesh i gottapay my rent here. </QUOTE> You sir, are a crackwhore, aren't you? <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Topic: Rules of Engagement, Lesson #1 -- Say Nothing
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