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Rules of Engagement, Lesson #1 -- Say Nothing
August 10th 2000, 03:55 CEST by andy Diablo II and The Patch That People Hate. What's going on? You want to be kept informed, I know you do. You've got questions that you want to ask, and baby you know I want to get those answers for you! And I nearly managed it too... But you see, Blizzard is one of those game companies that still insists on locking its developers away in a dark room and putting a load of PR people out front to defend them against the perceived evils of journalism. And so, it is my sad news to report that despite the best efforts of your friends at the Planet o' Crap, we've been defeated by the lovely Ms Debra Osborne of Havas Interactive, Blizzard's parent company. For the curious, it went like this...
And that, my friends, is where the curtain closes. Apparently the questions were passed on to the QA team as promised, answered, handed back to Debra, and then, for some unexplained reason, she was asked not to send them to me yet. Will she send them? Did she ever intend to send them? Were they ever answered? Did she even pass them on to the QA team in the first place? Believe whatever makes you happy, folks! |
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Topic: Rules of Engagement, Lesson #1 -- Say Nothing
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<b>#128</b> "Whisp" wrote: <QUOTE>You're right EvilAsh - CE isn't overpowered. If you concentrate only on it, and no other skills, you'll never be able to beat a boss. It's pretty obvious this insures it can't be unbalanced, since it doesn't work on only 1 enemy. Your argument is the best support yet I've heard for not changing the play balance. </QUOTE> No, he's just trying to prove he's superior because he did not understand the usefullness of CE, ignored it for his character, and now feels that it was a very smart and flexible decision. We need another poster, a barb who ignored whirlwind because he thought it was too weak (I've seen some), and who would be now bragging about how smart and flexible he was not to use this skill (of course, he would never admit he simply did a stupid character planning decision which with the help of Blizzard's magic turned into a right one). I respect each individual playing style, but I don't like lying people.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Dethstryk</b> (#120): <QUOTE><I>Very</I> good game. </QUOTE> Except for the extremely lame path finding. In most areas, I tell the party to go somewhere and 5 of the 6 go the right way ... and there's 1 straggler who decides to be different and goes WAY out of his way, finds a dead end, has to backtrack, and then take the route that everyone else took. It's really annoying ... Is there a fix or something for this? It actually does keep me from playing the game since I waste so much time just sitting there waiting for the party to arrive at the location I asked them to ... <b>EvilAsh</b> (#122): <QUOTE>As to Warren's Comments aw Common ... Now your taking it a little too extreme. I mean seriously You make it seem like Blizzard reach out.. Grabbed your heart.. Ripped out of your chest.. Threw it on the ground and danced on it..all the while laughing and pointing at you saying.. Things like.. "Sucker! haha ,We got you good and there is nothing you can do.. Mwhaaha!" </QUOTE> Do you intentionally TRY to miss the point as badly as possible? You seem to have perfectly honed the skill ... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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No My CE is level 8. My IM is Level 9 My Iron Golem is level 8 MY Blood Golem is level 6 My Golem mastery is level 5 MY Skeleton MAstery is level 6 MY Bone Wall is level 4 My Bone Spirit is level 4 My Bone Spear is level 6 MY Fire Golem is level 5. Its called options learn to use them. Its not as hard as you make it out to be. :) |
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<QUOTE>Are you suggesting that each time a game developer pulls some dirty trick we should silently go and play something else?</QUOTE> Not really. I just had been playing D2 and a few days ago went back to playing P:T (which I had started before D2) and as far as the single play experience goes, D2 doesn't compare. I am loving every minute of torment. |
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<b>#132</b> "EvilAsh" wrote: <QUOTE>Its called options learn to use them. Its not as hard as you make it out to be. :) </QUOTE> So you are specializing in Iron Maiden. Remember, it can get screwed any day. It is obviously your first try at necro (4 bone wall/spirit, rrrright), so you would regret some of your skill investments when you reach harder levels. I just don't understand why you decided to teach people (some of whom finished the game at hell/hell) with your level 30-something necro how to play. You like to spread skills evenly - good for you, but be warned that it gets much harder with this setup later on. If I were you, I'd start at least increasing the masteries ASAP instead of concentrating on absolutely useless later on bone skills. My screwed necro had BG at 5 with 1 golem mastery and 3 IM, it was enough for most bosses (Amp damage, IM, life tap, BG). Most of the points went to skel mastery, revives and CE. It was a well thought out decision after my first necro was spread out like yours to try everything out. I don't understand why you have to teach others how to play though, without even playing enough yourself.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Warren Marshall wrote in post #131:</b> <quote>Except for the extremely lame path finding. In most areas, I tell the party to go somewhere and 5 of the 6 go the right way ... and there's 1 straggler who decides to be different and goes WAY out of his way, finds a dead end, has to backtrack, and then take the route that everyone else took. It's really annoying ... </quote> Did you ever try increasing the AI path nodes or whatever like I told you? ;) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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Hmmmm, Can anyone think of any better solutions Blizzard could have put in place here? Personally, I think they should have just increased the mana cost. This would have prevented CE happy Necro's from corpse exploding an entire screen of baddies. Probably would slow down the rampant use of Whirlwind to kill everything in a few clicks... Then again, the point of Diablo II is to kill as much as possible in as few clicks as possible.. :-) Did anyone play in the stress test or closed beta? How did CE work in the beta/test? Was it the same in post 1.03 or pre 1.03? Archadon The fire wielding, ice throwing, pyrotecnic sorceress that makes pretty lights before she dies in one hit! :-)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Actually Bone walll works great.. Sufficiently leveled and with +4 bonus to all my skills due to +1 necro amulet. +2 wand and Sigon's Shield.. I have am able to experiment.. Bonewall doesn't cost much mana.. and Combining that with Im is a great thing..You can create veritable fortress of bone around a boss like Diablo2..and just cast Im... As far as investing in Im more than others.. Its not really by much... And as far as masteries.. Oh trust me.. I am going to be investing in them.. My character is only level 35. Recently I was playing a game in Act4 on night mare setting and I made the mistake of waypointing into the city of flame at the start of the game..And Was immediately humbled by about 20 monsters.. I died.. Another Necro in the same game was Level 46 and proceeded to laugh and say I was a newbie. I knew for a fact No Player could escape that area without dying within seconds because there was about 10 atomic knights. Surrounding the Waypoint.. And one unique Atomic with them.. So I goaded the cocky Necro and said if he was so good he could go there and grab my gold there was like 30 thousand on the ground.. He took me up on the challenge.. And within 20 seconds..I was greeted with the sweet announcement that His character had died at the hands of a FleshBeast. :) Trust me.. I do bettter than most with the skills I have. And I am creative in there use. But sometimes.. I make mistakes and die like the rest. IT happens.. But MY necro is fine. We shall see how he is when I reach level 50.. It should be interesting. |
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<b>EvilAsh</b> (#132): <QUOTE>Its called options learn to use them. Its not as hard as you make it out to be. :) </QUOTE> I'm going to speak slowly -- try to follow me. I don't care what characters you're playing. I don't care about what style of play you use. When I speak against what Blizzard did, I'm speaking against the -principle- of it. The exact action and the exact consequences of it are irrelevant. Try to understand this before responding again ... <b>Dethstryk</b> (#135): <QUOTE>Did you ever try increasing the AI path nodes or whatever like I told you? ;) </QUOTE> Yeah, I set them at the max value (like 100,000 I think) ... made no difference. I still get the straggler. I think it's just born dumb ... :-/ -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Warren Marshall wrote in post #138:</b> <quote>Yeah, I set them at the max value (like 100,000 I think) ... made no difference. I still get the straggler. I think it's just born dumb ... :-/ </quote> Damn. Well, I do agree with you on the dumb path-finding then, but I always looked at it as a minor problem. They <i>eventually</i> got to their destination. ;) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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Why did Blizzard do it? Simple it was needed the balance was not there. Here is the question for you Warren.. IF there was abviously an out of balance issue... How would Blizzard be able to take care of it differently? Only thing I agree was that they should have had an announcement... Fully Disclosed That the patch was going to make these changes,.. Explain the changes.. And Why. And give players the option of redistributing their skill points. That's it. That's my only beef with them. As for your principle issue your belief is that they will now for the next year tweak the game to the point its unrecognizable... You see the game Half-empty. I see it Half-full. What's should have Blizzard done? MAde the monsters even tougher? Think about logically if it thats at all possible for you. |
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<b>#136</b> "Archadon" wrote: <QUOTE>Did anyone play in the stress test or closed beta? How did CE work in the beta/test? Was it the same in post 1.03 or pre 1.03? </QUOTE> Stress test was limited to 1st level skills and to barbarian class. But anyway, there were few problems with barb, like sword use, no one used anything else. With whirlwind, it changed. Now, it changed back :) Only a crazy barb would swing anything but swords. You can still use ww but frankly, frenzy seems better to me. Swords are much faster, deal alot of damage, can be equipped in two hands for frenzy... It's all about swords now.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<QUOTE>Yeah, I set them at the max value (like 100,000 I think) ... made no difference. I still get the straggler. I think it's just born dumb ... :-/ </QUOTE> Strange, I was going to suggest the same thing but it really makes no diff. I wonder why BI took a step backwards in the pathfinding with this one...P:T actually has pretty decent pathfinding as compared to BG especially. |
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Post <b>#140</b> by EvilAsh: <QUOTE><i> What's should have Blizzard done? MAde the monsters even tougher? Think about logically if it thats at all possible for you. </i></QUOTE> I *love* that guy. Ok, assuming that you present an average Diablo player (one of the reasons I never read Blizzards forums btw), here's a pointer to the beginning of the thread about the patch (this thread and the very first one). Please read through the messages and have a pencil with a piece of paper to write down your favorite answers and what the threads are about, if you tend to forget it. There are answers for following questions, and much more: "CE was overpowered wasn't it", "what should have Blizzard done", "what's bad about balancing characters midway", "why do you care about it", etc. Also please see the article mentioned in #72 by Charlie Wiederhold, read it. The first thread is at http://www.planetcrap.com/stories/123/, the second thread is what you are reading now. The answer to your particular question: It's not about what Blizzard should have done, it's about what Blizzard should *not* have done. If you are still interested in what they could have done, here's a list, best first: 1. Do nothing, leave two classes powerfull one medium and two weak, remove ladder 2. Make weak classes medium/powerfull, remove ladder 3. Acknowledge your failure at balancing the game, refund people their money, declare it an open beta (;]) 4. Keep ladder at all costs, cut experience gains and make one powerfull class weak, the other one medium, most probably starting endless class rebalancing, etc etc etc Please read the answers to why this is so at the threads mentioned above. Don't jump in with questions like "yeah and what if it's all left as is then CE would stay too powerfull", please, please, please?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>Dethstryk</b> (#139): <QUOTE>Damn. Well, I do agree with you on the dumb path-finding then, but I always looked at it as a minor problem. They <I>eventually</I> got to their destination. ;) </QUOTE> Yeah, but I get sick of waiting for them. :) "I want to enter this temple." *click* *wait* *wait* *wait* *wait* :) <b>EvilAsh</b> (#140): <QUOTE>Here is the question for you Warren.. IF there was abviously an out of balance issue... How would Blizzard be able to take care of it differently? </QUOTE> Apparently I wasn't speaking slow enough. The exact details of what happened are not important. It's the principle. <QUOTE>You see the game Half-empty. I see it Half-full. </QUOTE> No, I don't. I like Diablo2. <QUOTE>Think about logically if it thats at all possible for you. </QUOTE> Yeah, keep going with the stupid insults. It appears that's your best debating technique... <b>Diseased</b> (#142): <QUOTE>Strange, I was going to suggest the same thing but it really makes no diff. I wonder why BI took a step backwards in the pathfinding with this one...P:T actually has pretty decent pathfinding as compared to BG especially. </QUOTE> Yeah, I agree. Torment never seemed to have problems getting the guy to go where I wanted him ... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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What does it matter that you like or I like Diablo2.. We are discussing the Principle as in regards to how and what Blizzard did with the PAtch. My opinion and many others agree it was needed.. In how it was handled is where I also agree that they were wrong. You dislike Nerfing? In this case it was warranted. And if you say that the beta test should have shown this.... Really? IT was a limited beta. I ask again.. Since there was a balance issue which many did notice.. How would you have handled.. Since you seem to know all the answers. |
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<b>EvilAsh</b> (#145): <QUOTE>We are discussing the Principle as in regards to how and what Blizzard did with the PAtch. </QUOTE> No, I'm discussing the principle of the matter. You're discussing specifics pertaining to character development and how you personally play the game. <QUOTE>You dislike Nerfing? In this case it was warranted. And if you say that the beta test should have shown this.... Really? IT was a limited beta. </QUOTE> I didn't say that, but anyway ... Is it your belief they didn't do any testing other than the open beta? I would have hoped they tested playing the entire game several times ... they should have noticed that these things were so hopelessly unbalanced BEFORE shipping. Subtle bugs are one thing ... basic game balance issues are another. <QUOTE>I ask again.. Since there was a balance issue which many did notice.. How would you have handled.. Since you seem to know all the answers. </QUOTE> I don't have all the answers. I just disagree with changing things in a game which affect the gameplay in a major way. That's wrong and should ring alarm bells in any developers head that maybe the design team for that game needs to be examined. -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Now this is where I get nasty.. Warren you worked on WOT.. There are many Design Issues in that Game that should have been handled better.. I don't think anyone Needs to examine you. Its amazing... How many million sellers have you had Warren... Isn't it a little egotistical to be criticizing Blizzard when you haven't created products Better then they have? Seriously.. Lets compare WOT Fun game...But from a design standpoint based on its FAntastic License... IT Sucked. They took like a 14 book series and distilled into an Action game.. And this was a Fantasy GAme...Why not an rpg? That's the other issue with WOT it should have been an RPG. Instead it was an Action game! That's why many WOT fans were disappointed because they Expected better and they deserved better. |
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Methinks Warren and evilash are going to remain locked in mortal combat for the rest of this thread's life. And maybe into another one. |
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<b>EvilAsh wrote in post #147:</b> <quote>Its amazing... How many million sellers have you had Warren... Isn't it a little egotistical to be criticizing Blizzard when you haven't created products Better then they have? </quote> Is that <i>really</i> that valid of an argument? You might as well say that to about everyone here that thinks what they did was wrong, then. Sheesh. -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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Does anyone else find it interesting EvilAsh stopped talking about how no one would respond to him about beating the bosses with CE after I posted? Another thing that I don't believe that has been mentioned yet in this thread... I read somewhere one of the game designers had been quoted as saying that CE was the best skill in the game. Keep in mind that this was from BEFORE any patches were made, in one of the first necro play guides on the net. So it isn't like Blizzard didn't know that CE was powerful before they shipped it either. They just underestimated it's usefulness in multiplayer games. -Whisp |
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Post <b>#150</b> by Whisp: <QUOTE><i> I read somewhere one of the game designers had been quoted as saying that CE was the best skill in the game. Keep in mind that this was from BEFORE any patches were made, in one of the first necro play guides on the net.</i></QUOTE> It's on Blizzard's own site, www.battle.net/diablo2. Obviously, they knew that CE is too powerfull even before they shipped. During an open betatest, CE was called a skill of choice of the necros who played it. Something strange is going on inside Blizzard. Here's the quote from Blizzard's site: <quote>If you want to make a big mess, Corpse Explosion is the skill for you. Once dubbed "The Best Skill of All Time" by Blizzard Employees, Corpse Explosion is a favorite among many. Corpse Explosion is great for clearing out crowds of monsters very quickly. All you need to destroy large groups monsters is a body, and to lead that group of monster near that body. Explode the corpse to create a new corpse, continue to use Corpse Explosion until there is nothing left.</quote> <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Yep PiRaMidA, that's the quote I saw. Here's something else to think about: <QUOTE>For those who haven’t heard of it, it’s quite simple. Because of it’s special properties, this golem heals itself when he deals damage. IM, Iron maiden, is a curse that makes monsters take damage when they deal a successful melee attack against anything. The catch is that due to how it’s coded, the blood golem doesn’t really get healed on the damage he deals but on the damage his foes take. In the end, the damage that is inflicted by Iron maiden counts as damage dealt by the golem and the golem, as well as yourself, gets healed –a lot- because of that, making your golem invincible and you pretty much at the same time, against melee monsters only. The catch is this : <b>this is a bug, and a Blizzard employee known as BrockLanders, who occasionally visits Dii.net IRC chatroom, have unofficially confirmed that this would be corrected in a future patch, perhaps as early as 1.03.</b> So, I recommend not to build your character or your strategies based on this trick. By using it too often, you’ll miss the opportunity to learn to use the other abilities of your character and in the end once this will be taken away, you will suck. As usual, you are the last judge and if you want to exploit this as long as you can, feel free. </QUOTE>from the <a href="http://www.diabloii.net/strategy/zenegan-necro/pg2.shtml#Summoning Tree">necro guide</a> on the Diablo 2 Strategy Compendium (emphasis added). and compare to this: <QUOTE>Necromancer Skills - Blood Golem/Iron Maiden Combo: It appears that the preponderance of evidence points to no changes in the "bug" of this Skill combination, which allows Blood Golems to heal with the application of Iron Maiden.</QUOTE>from the <a href="http://www.diabloii.net/files/patch-103-analysis.htm">Patch V1.03 Analysis</a> page. To summarize - Blizzard "fixed" CE, which worked exactly as intended (if more effectively than planned), but didn't fix the BG/IM combo, which they have admitted really is a bug (they never intended the blood golems to gain life from IM, only its attacks). -Whisp |
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point worked on != designed. Warren was mainly a level designer, _his_ levels, notably the bowels (hence the running jokes) of Shadar Logoth were amongst the best in the game. its a bit like having a go a Paul steed, because of the way curved surfaces are implemented in the q3 engine. now that youve been educated to the point where you can take your foot out of your mouth, DO try and make valid points. Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Post <b>#152</b> by Whisp: <QUOTE><i> To summarize - Blizzard "fixed" CE, which worked exactly as intended (if more effectively than planned), but didn't fix the BG/IM combo, which they have admitted really is a bug (they never intended the blood golems to gain life from IM, only its attacks). </i></QUOTE> Yup, a known bug. See, that just confirms that this patch is a quickie hack to prevent people from reaching level 99 too soon. You can't gain exp fast with BG/IM, though it is an obvious bug. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>EvilAsh</b> (#147): <QUOTE>Now this is where I get nasty.. Warren you worked on WOT.. There are many Design Issues in that Game that should have been handled better.. I don't think anyone Needs to examine you. </QUOTE> No they shouldn't ... I wasn't the designer. <QUOTE>Its amazing... How many million sellers have you had Warren... Isn't it a little egotistical to be criticizing Blizzard when you haven't created products Better then they have? </QUOTE> WTF? What does WOT's success have to do with this "conversation"? <QUOTE>That's the other issue with WOT it should have been an RPG. Instead it was an Action game! </QUOTE> Uh hmm. Robert Jordan was originally pitched an RPG ... he turned it down. He doesn't want his world turned into an RPG. So I guess Legend is to blame. <QUOTE>That's why many WOT fans were disappointed because they Expected better and they deserved better. </QUOTE> Since we're totally off the track now and getting into personal bullshit, I'll just bail on this conversation. Nice trolling with you! -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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I Apologize for the Designer crack..But your crack on Blizzard questioning there DEsign Team..wasn't nice either..Doesn't feel good on the receiving end does it? I mean you went so far as to insinuate that these people need to get fired because they balanced a Spell after the game was shipped. Talk about being bitchy. I mean how many people screamed at WOT's D3d issues and screamed that they should be removed for working on games because of it? Don't your comments come off just as harsh as mine? Let me tell ya something when your screaming for someone's head over a game.. That's when the issues of reality need to come into play. Now to the comments about CE. And how a Blizzard employee advocated and how strategy guides all loved it...and All recommended it. I know I read strategy guides on the Necro.. Guess what? I Didn't go by them... There is a reason so many skills are available. I am going to describe something my friend did.. He is a sorceress..And recently He was having fun with Meteor Storm.. But he relealized that it was taking huge amounts of mana to clear large groups of monsters. Then he came upon a different strategy. He started using ice bolts to freeze the monsters momentarily.. Then he hit his meteor storm key and just as the monsters were thawing they would get hit. And shatter. This combination he found worked fantastic.. and It used less mana then just going all out with one Spell. This creative combination works.. and it doesn't under-balance the game... Do you think this is the type of creativity Blizzard was looking for? Or do you think they were looking for people to use one spell constantly.. And as for the comment as to Spells maxing at 20.. Question... What LEvel do you think the person's character would be when they were able to master one spell? 35-40? How about 50+. Yes of course they would be able to use these other spells... This is why When people my character is wasted.. Well. IF they are level 40 and they 50% to one spell.. Guess what?? They can continue to level... And master other spells.. And guess what? Their Character is not wasted!! This why folks screaming bloody are overeacting Totally. |
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<b>EvilAsh</b> (#156): <QUOTE>I Apologize for the Designer crack..But your crack on Blizzard questioning there DEsign Team..wasn't nice either..Doesn't feel good on the receiving end does it? </QUOTE> *sigh* How am I on the receiving end? Read slowly : I WAS NOT THE DESIGNER. For some reason you chose to pull WOT out of thin air and say that because that didn't sell millions of copies, I'm not allowed to form an opinion of Blizzard's actions. Insanity. <QUOTE>I mean you went so far as to insinuate that these people need to get fired because they balanced a Spell after the game was shipped. </QUOTE> I did? Let's take a reading lesson ... what I said was "<i>That's wrong and should ring alarm bells in any developers head that maybe the design team for that game needs to be examined.</i>". Yeah, I can see where I said people should get fired. Good call! <QUOTE>Talk about being bitchy. I mean how many people screamed at WOT's D3d issues and screamed that they should be removed for working on games because of it? Don't your comments come off just as harsh as mine? Let me tell ya something when your screaming for someone's head over a game.. That's when the issues of reality need to come into play. </QUOTE> Ugh. Go away ... *plonk* Ahhh, that's better ... -- Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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The Design Team needs to be examined? What The Fuck did you mean by that ? That they need their heads examined? Maybe you need to be examined....Its obvious your So Angered by this patch that you can't get over it.. So much so you suggest that the designers at Blizzard might need to be examined? Doesn't sound like a positive comment to me. ****** EvilAsh Professional Head Examiner. |
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Post <b>#156</b> by EvilAsh: <QUOTE><i> Well. IF they are level 40 and they 50% to one spell.. Guess what?? They can continue to level... And master other spells.. And guess what? Their Character is not wasted!! </i></QUOTE> You really have to learn more about the game. Building you character around a skill is not only putting 20 skill points to it, it's also complementary skills you develop, stats points you allocate, and equipment you have. When you are at level 50, it is too late to change your main strategy. To get extra skill points you'd need at least to level up, and you don't have a slightest clue how impossible it is to level up at Clvl 50 when your main strategy is wasted. Then again, it seems you don't have a slightest clue about many other things as well.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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crash, one question - is GamerX your C|Net pseudo? Or is it a collective name for your game writers? Just thought that he expresses thoughts very similar to yours. Thanks ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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EvilAsh: Whisp already pointed it out to you, and you have said it yourself... Corpse Explosion isn't as overpowered as people liked to think. It is *great* for group fighting, but it is worthless against one creature, especially a unique who is alone or a boss. That is the weakness of the spell. That is how all skills are designed. They are good for one thing, not good for another. A powered up meteor shower or inferno is *wonderful* for boss fights but pretty much worthless against hordes of enemies or quick moving enemies compared to other skills. I was able to walk up to a boss and simply rip him to shreds with my inferno spell, even though the rest of the group had to beat on it for a lot longer. The only reason it was taken out was because Blizzard felt people were leveling too fast for their tastes because of the ability for CE to take down lots of enemies quickly. That is always always always a bad reason to change something. Especially if they continue to make these types of changes. Why is the rate at which someone gains levels an issue? Because of the competition the ladder creates. If you ask me the worst thing they ever added was the ladder. There is always going to be one or two classes that level faster than the others (no matter *WHAT* you do balance wise except make them all identical). <b>What would have been much smarter would have been to create a ladder for each class.</b> Hello world! Charlie Wiederhold |
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Post <b>#161</b> by Charlie Wiederhold: <QUOTE><i> <B>What would have been much smarter would have been to create a ladder for each class.</B> Hello world! </i></QUOTE> True, but it would keep the problem of first twenty ladder positions at level 99. Which means, no first place (no more exp gains), people lose interest in competing for the first place, and ladders as Blizzard wants them to be become a waste of code. And that's why I believe paladins would get thorns "balanced" in one of the next patches (they allow to gain exp proportional to how many people there are in the game, with the help of conversion. I hear EvilAshes around the world screaming "unfair").<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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What happens to paladins isn't affecting me.. And hasn't bothered me.. Umm.. Here is a question How in the world can one Customize their use of ITems in D2 to center around one spell? What your going to only get Wands that have +3 to ce? that's it? If thats the case you trying to use as an example thats really weak. IF your level 40 and you can level like 20 more times.. OF course you can allocate those skills around to different one's. And as to the weak argument that it takes a long while to get to level 50... I would sure hope so.. It would be really out of whack if within 3 days of playing you were at level 50.. kind of takes the FUN out of it. Especially when its too easy. As far as the ladder argument.. I Could give a rat's ass .. I am more impressed with reading about people who beat the game hardcore on hell setting. That impressed me more. This isn't Unreal Tournament ya know.. IF they really wanted to make the game so Competitive as you think they are worried about it... They could have a PK ladder and tally the amount of wins and losses. But you don't see Blizzard doing that. HAs Blizzard officially State that they scaled back CE because of the Ladder? IF they have said this.. the argument is over.. and I agree thats A stupid Friggin REASON. IF they haven't said this.. then Assuming that to be true is just as stupid. |
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EvilAsh: The topic is about Blizzard making adjustments to Corpse Explosion and if it is something they should or should not do (and what their reasons for doing this are). Go back to that topic and stop randomly wandering around talking about *god knows what*. <quote>I would sure hope so.. It would be really out of whack if within 3 days of playing you were at level 50.. kind of takes the FUN out of it. Especially when its too easy.</quote> That's up to the player though and how they play the game. The players who are flying up the ladders are *trying* to go fast. They aren't concerned with the game being challenging, they are trying to get to the top as soon as possible. They are going to do this no matter what you do. Blizzard is an <b>outright FUCKUP</b> if they try to cater the game to these people. Ignore those guys, there are other people who are not devoting 20 hours a day to Diablo 2. The slower you make it for the top players, you suddenly make it THAT much slower for the average players and heaven help the guys who can only put in a couple hours a week. <quote>HAs Blizzard officially State that they scaled back CE because of the Ladder?</quote> They cut it back because Necros were able to gain experience too quickly with it. The only reason this would be a problem *now* and not during the 4 years they developed the game is because of their vision of how fast people should be going (the ladder is a very important aspect of this). Let me ask you this: Why was it not a problem in Diablo 1 that the classes leveled at different rates there? ---- Pirmida - I think ladders are stupid for Diablo 2 and don't think they should have been added. However, if they feel the need for them, the should seperate them out into classes so that you can compete with your fellow classmates. You can still see how you fare against *everbody* but your competition is against other people who have a similar skill set (much like any sport). Charlie Wiederhold |
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Charlie your assuming and you know what happens when you assume.. You Make An ASS out of yourself when the truth is revealed later. :) |
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Post <b>#164</b> by Charlie Wiederhold: <quote><i>I think ladders are stupid for Diablo 2 and don't think they should have been added. However, if they feel the need for them, the should seperate them out into classes so that you can compete with your fellow classmates. You can still see how you fare against *everbody* but your competition is against other people who have a similar skill set (much like any sport). </i></QUOTE> That's true, of course. By the way, they have class-based ladders, sort of. You can have different views on ladders, one of them hardcore, and the other is class based. The default is all classes together, but you can see how you match against others in your class. What I was saying is that it does not help cut down exp gain for the powerfull classes, hence the patch... Post <b>#165</b> by EvilAsh Assuming is the only thing left when Blizzard does not give any official reasons why. You know, when you have enough facts you can safely assume some things. Fact1 - ladder was coming to an end. Fact2 - exp gain for higher levels was dramatically cut, to 1/5 of what it was before. Fact3 - fastest exp gaining skills were nerfed, even though Blizzard knew it would generate a lot of negative feedback. Fact4 - obvious bugs and loopholes in skills which don't allow fast exp growth but are unbalanced (BG/IM) were not fixed. You have something to say about those facts? Give them some thought, it is as clear as it can be. If Blizzard wanted to keep ladders alive for another year, the only thing they could do was a 1.03 patch as we know it. If Blizzard simply wanted to balance the game, there were many much better ways. Post <b>#163</b> by EvilAsh Items you use depend on the skills you base your characters upon. If you use mana-critical skills, you collect wyrm's equipment. If you are in for a close combat often, you try to get higher DC and hitpoints +. If you use bow most of the time, you seek items with AR boosts. Of course, at level 34 you just put on whatever you find. Once again, I was talking about higher level chars who can choose what to wear and who collect their items for quite some time. This is quite irrelevant to the discussion though, just one more reason why nerfing sucks.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Andy, no update on the topic? Still very interested in those answers...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#167</b>, PiRaMidA: <QUOTE> Andy, no update on the topic? Still very interested in those answers... </QUOTE> I'm going to send Debra another note today to ask what's happening. |
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Ooh, apparently we should be getting those answers tomorrow... ;-) |
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Post <b>#169</b> by Andy: <QUOTE><i> Ooh, apparently we should be getting those answers tomorrow... ;-) </i></QUOTE> Cool news, thanks! It better be something good ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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<b>#170</b>, PiRaMidA: <QUOTE> It better be something good ;) </QUOTE> It better be <i>something</i>... |
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Post <b>#171</b> by Andy: <QUOTE><i> It better be <I>something</I>... </i></QUOTE> well, I guess you were right ;(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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Still no answer to the questions? Agh...seems to be they are pulling the old "Ha ha, look at these mortals squirm. Should we decide to grace them with our godly presence, we'll handle their questions with a paragraph that will say no comment so off! Ho ho ho.." and I still can't believe EvilAsh argued. Did you see his last post? Man alive... |
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u knwo what sux abouthte patch most, i spend my time and effort to go on the net download the crakcs and the no key check for b net , then i go on and it automatically patches me then i gotta go find a whole new set of cracks, daym man. they shouldnt automatically patch it should be only if u download it from there site. blizzard has enough money already they dont need my little 40 bucks, shesh i gottapay my rent here |
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fukin guys |
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What? guy, could you please speak in English? |
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<b>Guido wrote in post #176:</b> <quote>What? guy, could you please speak in English? </quote> I think that was his best shot at it, bud. ;) -- Dethstryk Damage Gaming |
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<b>#174</b> "guy" <QUOTE> u knwo what sux abouthte patch most, i spend my time and effort to go on the net download the crakcs and the no key check for b net , then i go on and it automatically patches me then i gotta go find a whole new set of cracks, daym man. they shouldnt automatically patch it should be only if u download it from there site. blizzard has enough money already they dont need my little 40 bucks, shesh i gottapay my rent here. </QUOTE> You sir, are a crackwhore, aren't you? <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I> |
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