Historical Film, Anti-Semitic Propoganda, or Just Another Damn Movie?

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Historical Film, Anti-Semitic Propoganda, or Just Another Damn Movie?
February 26th 2004, 20:47 MSK by Trunks

We've all been hearing the talk about Mel Gibson's latest work, Passion of the Christ, which is supposed to be an accurate portrayal* of Jesus H. Christ's last hours on Terra Firma. Reviews and opinions have been mixed. Many are calling it genius from a film standpoint. Others claim it's too violent. Some in the Jewish community call it Anti-Semitic, stating that the movie makes the Jews look bad while absolving the Romans from being shed in a bad light. Others still are worried that, while the movie isn't explicitly Anti-Semitic, there's enough of an inference there to rile up the religious zealot types into starting a wave of Anti-Jew violence and debauchery.

But screw all that, I'm more interested in the vaunted Crapper community's opinion of the film, given the fabulous film commentary made around here in times past. That and Episode 3's still a good year away and we can't start a thread for that one yet...I think.

*According to Gibson's interpretation of the New Testament anyway.

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Home » Topic: Historical Film, Anti-Semitic Propoganda, or Just Another Damn Movie?

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#401 by deadlock
2004-02-28 00:26:06

Shadarr:

That's what I mean; it's not a concious thing, people don't think 'hmmm... I think I'll call this philosophy of mine "God"'. But that doesn't mean that it's not a philosophy. And you said what I meant far better than I could have.

CrapFacts!

#402 by McBain
2004-02-28 00:26:41

He said, stamping his foot. Seriously man, you remind me of me when I was 16 and angry. Grow up. Hug a rainbow.

I'm not stamping any feet. I react the same way any time I think people are being duped or wronged. I fight against it. I'm not quite sure why I'm percieved as being angry for simply making my point forcefully.

But... The other day, one of the blokes I work with lent me his car to drive down to the sandwich shop to get lunch for us. When I got back, I managed to reverse his car into a bollard, doing some superficial damage to the back of it. Bearing in mind that I've only just completed my second week in this job, you can only imagine how hard I wanted to have the power to reverse time or fix body damage WITH MY EYES. Have you honestly never experienced something like that?

I thought I pretty clearly said that, as an example, I imagined or wished for the power of a Jedi.

But were those people voted into office solely because they are religious fundamentalists?

Of course not. The point is that Christian fundies in America are a significant force and I'd argue that a majority of Americans disagree with Caryn's definitions. Do you dispute that? Or do you want to talk about a side issue like "politicians are elected for many reasons, not just one"? I'll end that topic now by saying I agree.

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#403 by LPMiller
2004-02-28 00:30:25

Good, we can shut up about it then.

I believe I can fly......urk.

#404 by lwf
2004-02-28 00:31:03

You may be "sterile" in that you can't procreate, but you're still a filthy fucking hippy.

Plan to hitch a ride with the river
Cuz deep down plumbing life is too cramped for me

#405 by LPMiller
2004-02-28 00:31:39

I'm not sterile, filthy, or a hippy. I do, however, fuck.

I believe I can fly......urk.

#406 by lwf
2004-02-28 00:33:19

That was for 397, now give me a hug.

Plan to hitch a ride with the river
Cuz deep down plumbing life is too cramped for me

#407 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 00:45:19

I'm not quite sure why I'm percieved as being angry for simply making my point forcefully.

The reason people treat you like a child having a tantrum is that you don't present logical arguments. You say "Belief in God is irrational" which I agree with, but you treat that statement like a self-evident proof and don't back it up with anything. Which, funnily enough, is exactly what people do when they claim God does exist.

lwf,

So, when I was advocating the sterilization of retards, that makes me a hippie? I don't love my common man--I hate you all equally.

#408 by lwf
2004-02-28 00:49:48

It doesn't matter, Shaddar, hippy goes well with filthy, so I had to use it.

we are hummingbirds who are just not willing to move

#409 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 00:57:05

Can't I be a fucking fascist?

#410 by mgns
2004-02-28 00:57:59

First a shower. Then, maybe, fucking.

He leans on the hood telling racing stories, the kids call him Jimmy The Saint.

#411 by Trunks
2004-02-28 01:00:32

Tease.

"Whether he likes it or not, a man's character is stripped bare at the poker table; if the other players read him better than he does, he has only himself to blame. Unless he is both able and prepared to see himself as others do, flaws and all, he will be a loser in cards, as in life."
-Anthony Holden

#412 by Phayyde
2004-02-28 01:09:41

McBain, your positions reveal a poverty of attention to Theology. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at your age. As long as you realize you aren't the only human that has asked these questions, that's enough.

Someday, your huffish shallow proclamations will cease to be able to hold you. Someday, if you live long enough, you will hunger for more. And actual hair will begin to grow on your scrumblins. But you don't have to take my word for it.

Beat to fit, paint to match.

#413 by Jibble
2004-02-28 01:19:45

#182 yotsuya

Hugin-

I took a class like that as well, and it was interesing. The professor would start off every new section on religion with "If God/Allah/Budda/et al, is God, why do babies die?"

Because you touch yourself at night.

That's all I got.

"No degree of dullness can safeguard a work against the determination of critics to find it fascinating." - Harold Rosenberg

#414 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 01:21:19

mgns,

You aren't invited to the porn-fueled fucking festival this weekend, or the showering before and after.

#415 by McBain
2004-02-28 01:22:03

McBain, your positions reveal a poverty of attention to Theology.

Easy to say that without making a strong case about what I'm missing. If you want to talk about secular philosophical ideas about man's purpose, justice, the nature of love, sacrifice, friendship, etc... I'm all ears. As soon as unobservable entities, miracles, etc. come in to play, I'm going to stop listening.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at your age.

If I pat you on the head, does it make my argument stronger?

As long as you realize you aren't the only human that has asked these questions, that's enough.

Of course I'm not, there are philosphical minds of such brilliance throughout history that it hurts my head. Carl Sagan was a genius. Socrates, Aristotle, Plato. There are plenty of athiest/humanist philosophers I respect. What's your point?

Someday, your huffish shallow proclamations will cease to be able to hold you. Someday, if you live long enough, you will hunger for more. And actual hair will begin to grow on your scrumblins. But you don't have to take my word for it.

...pat... pat...

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#416 by Bailey
2004-02-28 01:27:54

Shadarr

I'd take that over a monthly injection. Well, I would if I wasn't already sterile.

Ditto and ditto.

Joker

It's all so stupid it's not even funny.

The wild flailing and puerile tone projects some interesting insecurities.

McBain

I react the same way any time I think people are being duped or wronged. I fight against it.

You must be swinging your literal and metaphorical fists twenty-nine hours a day.

Only as much as you deserve.

#417 by Jibble
2004-02-28 01:39:50

[My Contribution (aka scrollwheelable content)]

Re: Religion

Preface: I am in no way insinuating that I am correct or even remotely as well learned as many on this subject.

Christianity holds little value to me, personally, aside from the basic morals it teaches.  I think that impressing upon people that it's maybe a bad idea to stab someone in the face qualifies as a good thing.  I often have difficulty hearing three year olds say prayers at dinner as I'm quite certain that they know not what they are saying.  I also have difficulty knowing that there's a lot of people who simply accept what's handed to them rather than learning on their own.  Note that the second statement is an extension of the first.

I have more respect for those that are well learned in a variety of religious traditions, regardless of what affiliation they define themselves with.  I would not necessarily trust a historian who has read the encyclopedia...and only the encyclopedia...and claims him/herself to be an expert on all history.  I feel the same should be applied universally.  Please note that I am not saying that this person is wrong, just that I have less respect for his knowledge than I would for someone who has studied various historical texts for many years.

Personally, I was a Christian for a long time...then I started looking around and poking around at very basic levels of other religions.  I read a few books here and there (nothing that would make me an expert).  I realized I was very far from being an actual Christian, and that I simply believed it because my parents did.  I was just going through the motions.

I came to the conclusion that, according to my most basic personal system of beliefs, I was a partial-Buddhist.  I can see desires destroying people's lives around me, so that part makes sense.  I don't necessarily believe in the idea of transcendence...I think we just kind of go around and around for eternity.  Ashes to ashes and what not.  I mostly like it here, so I don't see that as such a bad thing.

If you think otherwise, good for you.  All that matters to me is that those among the living treat each other well.  I thus allow others to claim their own ideas, as you'll be just as right about it as I am.

...unless you're Mormon.

"No degree of dullness can safeguard a work against the determination of critics to find it fascinating." - Harold Rosenberg

#418 by Phayyde
2004-02-28 01:42:31

McBain you don't believe in miracles?  What is a miracle but reality contrary to expectation?  To doubt that miracles can exist is self-proclaimed omniscience.  The same argument sinks atheism.

Also Sagan was no atheist.  He never proclaimed God DNE.

And how can you respect Plato?  Have you even read his works?  Do you have any idea what that man believed?  A hidden world of eternal forms projecting imperfect manifestations into our reality.  But you're not going to demand proof of that, no.  LOL

I call your early conclusions (ie. there is no God) naive.  You suffer from a lack of patience with complexity.   You list authors you are unfamiliar with.   It just looks like you aren't trying yet.

I'm here to say that you will.  Someday.  Mark that.

Beat to fit, paint to match.

#419 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 01:44:23

...I'm going to stop listening.

This is why we mock you.

Jibble,

Have you checked out the Unitarian church? You sound like a prototypical Unitarian. Much moreso than me, in fact.

#420 by Trunks
2004-02-28 01:44:44

You will be. You will be.

#421 by Trunks
2004-02-28 01:44:59

Wait, wrong side. Shit.

#422 by lwf
2004-02-28 01:47:55

Dear Shadarr,

When you quote a snippet of a scrollwheeled post, it helps me when you say who you're quoting.

Best Regards,

lwf

we are hummingbirds who are just not willing to move

#423 by Phayyde
2004-02-28 01:49:27

lwf, he's tappin' him some of that McBain ass...

Beat to fit, paint to match.

#424 by lwf
2004-02-28 01:51:56

Thanks Phayyde, I see that now. Planetcrap is a helpful place full of helpful people. See?

we are hummingbirds who are just not willing to move

#425 by Jibble
2004-02-28 01:55:40

#419 Shadarr

...I'm going to stop listening.

This is why we mock you.

Jibble,

Have you checked out the Unitarian church? You sound like a prototypical Unitarian. Much moreso than me, in fact.

After having made a cursory glance at the belief system, I can see that I share a few of the ideas, but not enough to consider myself a part of that particular group. Spiritual growth isn't really my cup of tea.

"No degree of dullness can safeguard a work against the determination of critics to find it fascinating." - Harold Rosenberg

#426 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 01:56:18

Sorry lwf, I was replying directly to McBain but I should've crafted my post to appeal to a wider audience. Unfortunately the part of the sentence prior to what I quoted (and the post as a whole) was such a train-wreck that I felt it would've made my point less clear.

#427 by McBain
2004-02-28 01:59:44

McBain you don't believe in miracles?

Not as, say, The Catholic Church, defines them, no.

What is a miracle but reality contrary to expectation?

That would seem to be an unexplained unusual outcome to an ordinary set of events.

To doubt that miracles can exist is self-proclaimed omniscience.

Patently false. To doubt is not to claim knowledge at all, but to remain unpersuaded.

Also Sagan was no atheist. He never proclaimed God DNE.

I guess I'll have to go back to saying "weak-atheism" every time. Sigh. Besides, I never claimed he was an atheist. I merely added there were several atheist philosophers that I respect.

And how can you respect Plato?

Easily.

Have you even read his works?

Yes.

Do you have any idea what that man believed?

I can only go by what he wrote.

A hidden world of eternal forms projecting imperfect manifestations into our reality. But you're not going to demand proof of that, no. LOL

When did I say I agreed with everything he said? He was thinking "outside the box" for his time. Certainly, he was a brilliant guy living in a world where few really questioned religion or superstition.

I call your early conclusions (ie. there is no God) naive.

I only doubt the claims other people make of this "God" character of whom I've never seen and evidence of which is quite weak.

You list authors you are unfamiliar with.

Can you point to a claim I falsely made about any philosophical author?

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#428 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 02:01:18

Jibble,

Fair enough. When you said you respect other people's beliefs and had read up on various other religions, that triggered something for me, because that's the sort of thing Unitarians are big on. I'm exactly like you in that I was born into the church and go because my mom took me as a kid. If I hadn't been, I wouldn't've joined. The difference is that Unitarianism is such an innocuous "religion" that I've never had a reason to leave. And there are a lot of really intelligent, fun people in the church, especially and youth and young adult conferences. There are also a fair number of dogmatic fuckos like McBain, but they tend to be older.

#429 by Jibble
2004-02-28 02:01:30

In other words, I try not to label myself (hence the partial- prefix to my Buddhism). Many people find it difficult to grasp when I say "Well, I don't really belong to any group, as my belief system is far reaching and not defined within any template yet." People like labels. As such, I've sort of started to tell people I'm partial-Buddhist, or sometimes just "Buddhist". It would also be accurate to say that I'm partial-Christian, partial-Agnostic, partial-Jewish, partial-Unitarian, partial-Mormon...explaining which parts of each are pieces in my puzzle would bore all of us to tears.

To clarify, I mention Buddhism because it is the system that I have researched most and thus the one I understand most when people ask me to explain it.

I should probably just say "I'm not really religious" and leave it at that...even though that's sort of a lie...depending on how you define "religious".

"No degree of dullness can safeguard a work against the determination of critics to find it fascinating." - Harold Rosenberg

#430 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 02:02:45

Especially at conferences. Fuck.

#431 by Shadarr
2004-02-28 02:05:54

See, I always say I'm Unitarian because people like labels. But there is no real "Unitarian Dogma" so saying that is largely meaningless. In terms of beliefs, mine are closer to Taoist but like you say, explaining that to people is a lot of wasted effort. If I said I was Taoist, they'd expect me to have memorized the Tao Te Ching or something. Whereas saying I'm Unitarian just means I go to a church occasionally, and don't believe most stuff.

#432 by Jibble
2004-02-28 02:07:16

#428 Shadarr

Jibble,

The difference is that Unitarianism is such an innocuous "religion" that I've never had a reason to leave.

Upon some further investigation, I am hard pressed to really define Unitarianism as a religion. From my viewpoint it always sounded (yes, I know, stupid) like some sort of extreme religious idealism. I'm not a big fan of the suffix "-ism".

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in The Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus and I'd still have to bum rides off of people." - Wise 80's Movie Proverb

Unitarianism sounds more like a gathering of people who like to share ideas, some of which might relate back to religious figures and literature. Sort of like a book club, but more...encompassing.

"No degree of dullness can safeguard a work against the determination of critics to find it fascinating." - Harold Rosenberg

#433 by Jibble
2004-02-28 02:08:53

It's frightening that I've taken to casually labeling myself because I simply got tired of taking shit from people about not having a label.

"No degree of dullness can safeguard a work against the determination of critics to find it fascinating." - Harold Rosenberg

#434 by Phayyde
2004-02-28 02:26:42

Can you point to a claim I falsely made about any philosophical author?

No I can't. I assumed you were calling those men atheists and agreeing 100% with their belief systems. My bad.

I only doubt the claims other people make of this "God" character of whom I've never seen and evidence of which is quite weak.

Right, long after people all over Earth, even from centuries back have told you that direct observable evidence is not the way to know God.  You can continue to try to suck blood from that turnip all you want, it doesn't prove or disprove a thing.

Logic is a tool.  It works for many things.  And for some things it doesn't.  It is naive to conclude that logic is infallible.  In fact, Kurt Godel told us that the very medium in which logic exists is deeply, irreparably flawed.

I realize it feels comfortable to draw a conclusion, I feel it too.  But from the graffitti on the wall, we aren't the first to pass by here and the trail continues with an open mind for miles.  Do you continue the search?  Or do you stop and pitch camp?

Beat to fit, paint to match.

#435 by McBain
2004-02-28 03:02:08

Right, long after people all over Earth, even from centuries back have told you that direct observable evidence is not the way to know God.

The way to know God seems to be undefinable, ever changing, different from person to person, unreliable, and outside of silly concepts like "logic". Right.

it doesn't prove or disprove a thing.

I don't believe it does. I'm not making claims of deities and spirits. I have no claims to prove.

It is naive to conclude that logic is infallible.

What color is the sky in your world?

Do you continue the search? Or do you stop and pitch camp?

I would argue that abandoning skepticism and relying on one deity or another or some arbitrary faith is the very definition of giving up the search. "I don't need to examine my moral code, I have God to tell me what's right and wrong." As we're seeing right now, the people unequipped to deal with the paradigm shift that is occurring in regards to marriage are the ones who have mystical entities doling their sense of justice out to them, sitting at the ethereal high chair while Daddy God feeds them minced carrots with a whooshing airplane noise.

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#436 by Foodbunny
2004-02-28 03:08:25

Just insert a rant about how Phayyde's reaction to McBain's shitfuckery (ie - implying all atheists are niave) is just are retarded and offensive as McBain's opening salvos and doesn't resolve anything.

Verily, they converse with her for this reason only, namely, that she appears to be a complete whore.

#437 by McBain
2004-02-28 03:16:25

Ah! The retreat to claims of offensive intolerance, if not bigotry, in the face of a good challenge to one's belief system!

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#438 by Gabe
2004-02-28 03:20:47

Beware of Lady Shitfuckery.

#439 by Foodbunny
2004-02-28 03:21:27

I don't consider it challenging at all, I consider it a pathetic tit-for-tat.

Verily, they converse with her for this reason only, namely, that she appears to be a complete whore.

#440 by jjohnsen
2004-02-28 03:23:53

I thus allow others to claim their own ideas, as you'll be just as right about it as I am.

...unless you're Mormon.

I'm glad I didn't go halfsies on that ice cream scoop with Yot.

Jerk.

-Jeremy

#441 by Post-It
2004-02-28 03:57:32

Reminder:

We're trying to do that game playing thing again in about an hour. Relevant info here.

I also emailed those who requested the server info.

Comment Signature

#442 by Bailey
2004-02-28 04:03:07

To doubt that miracles can exist is self-proclaimed omniscience.

The same can be said of doubting the existence of Robo-Hitler.

Only as much as you deserve.

#443 by McBain
2004-02-28 04:14:40

I'm downloading Enemy Territory right now.

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#444 by Squeaky
2004-02-28 04:40:53

#441 Post-It

Reminder:

We're trying to do that game playing thing again in about an hour. Relevant info here.

I also emailed those who requested the server info.

bah. Because of my various computer shitfuckery, I wont be able to play ET. Last week it was work, this week its a fucked computer.

My name it is Sam Hall an' I hate you, one and all. An' I hate you, one and all. Damn your eyes.
dvds

#445 by bago
2004-02-28 06:11:30

Food for thought.

The monkey poured coffee in my MOOTZ!

#446 by Bailey
2004-02-28 06:56:14

bago

Finally ran out of perversions and had to go furry?

Only as much as you deserve.

#447 by DEATH KILLER INTERNATIONAL (INTERGALACTIC DIVISION
2004-02-28 07:11:11

Speaking of sterilization, male contraceptive trial launched.

Like you'll ever need it.

Intergalactic Turnip Festival Destroyer

#448 by DEATH KILLER INTERNATIONAL (INTERGALACTIC DIVISION
2004-02-28 07:11:41

That was for jafd, by the way.

Intergalactic Turnip Festival Destroyer

#449 by McBain
2004-02-28 07:46:19

Bago, great link.

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.

#450 by deadlock
2004-02-28 11:09:30

McBain:

I react the same way any time I think people are being duped or wronged.

'Duped'. 'Wronged'. See that's what gets my goat up; this arrogant presumption that McBain alone holds the key and that anyone who has Faith is just a stooge for some shady organisation. Gimme a break dude. There are plenty of intelligent people on this board who believe and who could and should be offended by your characterisation of them as mindless drones. And before we wander down that road; yes, I know that when an organisation such as the Roman Catholic Church* attains a certain size and level of influence, a goodly amount of its' exertations are aimed at keeping itself at that level. But the ultimate truth is that the Pope himself is a Believer.

The point is that Christian fundies in America are a significant force and I'd argue that a majority of Americans disagree with Caryn's definitions.

Then what's your point? Gaggle asked you for examples from the news of why religious beliefs are so wrong and you cited Bush and his buddies being elected. Hence my response, which was to point out that they weren't elected on purely religious or spiritual grounds. And if you're talking about the gay marriage thing, come on! Bush has opened a can of worms as an election gambit that will probably bite him in the arse: most commentators that I've heard have pointed out that the US Constitution is a pretty hallowed document that most people don't want to fuck with and that pretty much the majority of US citizens don't want federal government interfering with the minutiae of their lives. Not even the fundies. Even the people who are anti-gay-marriage can see that allowing Bush to make this change to the constitution would be setting a dangerous precedent.

Foodbunny:

I know you're being facetious, but that isn't what Phayyde is doing at all: he's not making sweeping generalisations about atheists in general, just about one in particular. One who is all about the sweeping generalisations, baby.

*I mention the RC purely because it is my denomination. What I said pretty much applies to most of the major religions.

CrapFacts!

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